2 Thessalonians 2: 3 Commentary

Candace,

I’m back but the disruption to my business scheduled has me backed up still. I hope to re-engage our conversation very soon.

Thanks so much for your prayers. As it turned out, there was no small amount of reconciling that needed to be done. God’s grace was evident and abundant. These are troubling times for even the strongest families but where “sin abounds; grace much more abounds”! God bless you.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/7/2011 04:48 am

I’ve got you covered & you’re in my prayers. I’ll be searching God’s word:)

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/23/2011 06:18 am

Candace,

A family matter has come up and I will be out of town and away from my computer for about a week. Take care and I’ll resume when I can after I return. In the meantime, if you want to do a little investigating concerning the so called “extra” 3.5 years, begin first by trying to find scriptures that link any of the 3.5 year references that are found in Rev. chapters 12 and 13 with Daniel’s 70th week. If they really are the same time period, there ought to be some solid evidence somewhere. Can you find any?

God bless.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/22/2011 22:42 pm

Scott…thank you for the virtual shoulder. This wretched, damnable infirmity…who shall deliver me from this body of death?! Oh! Yahweh did through the cleansing blood of His Messiah!……I forgot

I was thinkin’ we could take up your teaching on the 3.5 yrs I seem to be missing at Dan 9:24 if you like. It will be taxing for me to try & visit two of these forums. I’ll do what I can. In the meantime I’d like to just lay out my timeline so you can see exactly where I’m coming from.

Dan 9:27: In my understanding, this is where the 70th wk begins hence the START of the Tribulation.(not the wrath) Antichrist makes a 7 yr covenant w/ Israel, the sacrifices begin again & then “in the middle of the week” he stops the oblations etc & shows his true colors when Satan enters him. This now begins the 3.5 yrs of God’s Wrath. It’s appointed to last 1260 or 1290? days & Rev 13:5 says 42 months = 3.5 yrs. As I read the many verses speaking of this 70th wk, I see a 7yr Tribulation Period that’s interrupted w/ the Abomination of Desolation right in the middle of the 7 yrs following the Rapture of the Manchild. Satan, being so infuriated, goes after the Woman who is protected by God. when he can’t attack her, he focuses on her “offspring” the Saints that missed the Rapture & they are slaughtered.

As I see it The Bride’s been caught away but the wedding guests will not arrive for the wedding supper of the Lamb until they’ve been beheaded (martyred) Rev 13:7;20:4. This is all happening in the first half of the 7 yr tribulation & just prior to the Wrath & I base that on the earlier scriptures I shared where Y’shua spoke of the trials coming upon the saints in Matt 24 & others. It would appear “the Church” is now gone, “he” who restrains i.e. the saints are gone & all focuss is now on Israel. To me, the last 42 months are God’s dealings w/ the finish of the 70th week of Israel’s “transgressions” & the pouring out of His wrath on the wicked & rebellious nations that are left until the King of kings, Lord of lords comes back to take possession of his Kingdom. I do believe the 144,000 & the 2 Witnesses will bring salvation to many during this time of Wrath.

I don’t know if you’ve been hearing or watching much of the news that’s been broadcasted this past yr but it seems if God can’t get the attention of the Churches, He’s going to use the secular media. The talk from financial experts, economists & various other offices are saying we can’t continue w/ this massive debt etc. The collapse of the US monetary system is at the door. Prophectic people are hearing these things & giving warning after warning to put aside food, water & barter. If not for anything else but the FACT food prices will be escalating out of control as well as oil prices.

I believe all this is the beginning of the shaking I keep bringing up. We recently listened to a NASA special about the coming severe solar storms predicted to start hitting in 2011, climaxing in 2012. NASA states that 1859 was the worst solar storm on record & the ones predicted to hit will be on that calibur & greater. I believe this too is the beginning of the shaking that heralds in the tribulation period.

There is such growing talk from almost every government offical about the coming of globalization & one world government being the best thing for our troubled economy. The Progessives are so excited about it, they can’t seem to take the US down fast enough! My gut tells me it’s all been in the works for quite some time & if you research most of our past presidents, Obama included, they have been very progressive & are pushing for the collapse of America, take down our borders & set up a N. American Union i.e. CanAmeriCo. Do some research….it’s frightening how close we are.

I do believe it’s all being orchestrated so the Mahadi can come in as the world “savior” as nations are collapsing, riots & chaos in the streets (such as we’re seeing in Greece, Italy & Australia), growing unemployment hence hunger & home losses increasing, all to usher in anarchy & eventual martial law & executive order coming from the president. Get enough chaos going all over the world & the World Leader will be on the scene as our savior w/ all the answers. All we need to do is take the mark of the
beast:(

As I see it, this is the 1st seal opened & the rest are right behind. This is the first 3.5 yrs of the Tribulation which matures the Bride & finishes Y’shua’s 3.5 ministry through the Manchild Co. hidden w/ in the Woman.
In Luke 21:28 it reads: “and when these things come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh.” In the Greek it literally says to “unbow yourseleves”. Meaning great persecution & testing has come upon us. The Church always rises to her best when under seige by the enemy w/ great persecution. Paul had to encourage Thessalonica to not fear even though their persecution was fierce, the Rapture hadn’t come yet for there were prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

We’re promised to be kept “out of” THE WRATH OF GOD” but we’re admonished not to loose faith as we’ll be kept through the tribulation.(Jn 16:33). Father against son, mother against daughter.(Luke 12:53) & (Matt 10:21) The whole creaton groaning for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

If the Bride is snatched out(as in: plucked from the fire in the nick of time) before these hard things begin to bear down then where is the great harvest (we see them being martyred in (Rev 12:11) & (Rev 20:41) what is she being snatched out of if not tribulation coming upon the whole world??? Where is the Isaish 60 fulfillment, the glory of God upon you in darkness & gross darkness over the people? Where is the shaking that shakes everything out of us that can be shaken so we CAN receive the Kingdom that can’t be shaken??? (Heb 12:26-28) And why is the Woman in such travail if not for the 1st half of the Trib beginning & the 1st four seals are being opened?

If we are the generation that saw Israel restored as a Nation, then we ARE the generation that will not pass away until ALL these things are fulfilled! i.e. The temple will be rebuilt. In fact if you go on Hebrew News “Gloucester.com” you’ll see the temple’s ready to go & get this….a wealthy Turkish Muslim (Adnan Oktar) is funding much of The Temple’s rebuilding fund because he says…it will be aesthetically pleasing.(look up WorldNetDaily) Do you know the real reason why? In the Quran, Muslims know ther messiah the Mahdi is due & they also know he will rule from the 3rd temple & they pray day & night for his return to slaughter all the Jews & reign as world leader. Ten yrs ago, I never gave Islam much thought but now they are in our faces & pose as one our greatest threats. I use to think the bible was quite archaic in the “beheadings” but now I know that’s Islam’s favorite method of killing. Puzzle pieces falling into place.

Next the great Apostacy must happen. I personally feel one of the reasons for this apostacy is so many Christians that have trusted in a pre-trib rapture, believing they don’t have to prepare or pay any price at all, least of all lay their lives down for one another & love w/ unconditional love, will just be caught away…la, la, la. And when it doesn’t happen & they find themsleves in the worst shakings ever, they will fall away by the 1000s in utter unbelief.

3rd thing that has to happen is the revealing of the “man of sin” possibly the Mahadi coming on the scene as a savior to ease all this chaos & bring order & jobs back etc.

Scott, I want to thank you for allowing me to share this lengthy post & these are my beliefs concerning a pre-wrath rapture & why. I am more than grateful that you have given me your time & heart to understand where I stand & why. I have treasured this time w/ you & am trusting God that there will be more. I know I haven’t presented this anywhere near as eloquently as I know you are capably of but I’ve bared my heart & made myself very vulnerable to you. My prayer is that we can walk as friends & in unity & come to know & love one another fervently as we continue on this journey.

Pain’s cranking up & I thank you from the depths of me for your prayers & encouragement. In His Grip, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/21/2011 08:09 am

Candace, (post #25)

Flattery will get you everywhere! Thank you for the kind words.

Your question about the “extra 3.5 years” is the ultimate insult to the Lindsey/LaHaye disciple. It shatters their house of cards on so many fronts. Don’t misunderstand, they are right to be called Futurists for they are properly Pre-Trib and Pre-Millennial; but the nature of their interpretations and timing rest on a woefully unsatisfactory hermeneutic! The “extra 3.5 years” as you call it is only thought of as “extra” because of the endless decades long repetition that Daniel’s 70th week begins at the Rapture. It doesn’t.

If you want to discuss this particular further, perhaps we should move to a verse that is more relative to the subject. Let me know and I’ll get something going. Otherwise, we can stay right here and continue with the apostasy and the man of sin.

But for now, push the keyboard aside and give your body AND mind some rest. You’re going to need it if we venture down the path of the “extra 3.5 years”!

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/20/2011 15:03 pm

Scott, You fascinate me. I could only wish I had your adeptness w/ the English Language. Sometimes I’d rather just read your succinct depictions of Scripture. But I do enjoy sharing the deeper things I’ve come to understand & I marvel at how many things we do see in the same light. I’m just no match:(

Please, please, it’s the fatigue talking. I don’t dismiss Rev 1-11 as trivial at all! I see the vast importance of it’s outline. Truly I do. I’m just anxious to get to why I ascribe to a pre-wrath Rapture & you don’t & why are we seeing 2 different things when I agree whole heartedly w/ so many of your statements i.e. rapture not imminent, 2 revealings of the “man of sin” (oh, this so excites me that you see this!) Few do! and other statements as well.

I must admit I’m not understanding your “extra” 3.5 yrs of God’s wrath & the timing as you see it. I want to see through your eyes as this is new to me. But dearest brother, I am so ill I’m fighting nausea so I’ve got to save this discussion for later no matter how anxious my spirit is to continue!!!

I want to know where you’ve grown up spiritually & who was your Pastor & are you pastoring now & if not, you should be & when can I buy your book on endtimes?!

In His Grip, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/20/2011 07:15 am

Candace,

Yes, I’m very much human :-).

Regarding your pre-wrath position; you have presented a great deal of material. I know you are asking me to “bear with you”; and I will, but I must respond to some of your key points now before going further.

1. “Concerning the chronological order of Revelation….you win..”

I’m not sure what you meant by this but if the chronology truly is as I’ve suggested, then we all win because the ramifications are incredibly profound bringing tremendous light to the rest of the prophetic. I’m a little surprised that you seem to dismiss it’s significance. Please correct my impression if I’ve misread your statement.

2. “I base my pre-wrath position on the scripture that opened this forum: 2 Thes 2:3: Certain things MUST happen first BEFORE the Rapture can take place.”

Candace, I too base my Pre-Trib position on this verse (and many others). But we evidently have a disagreement on the verse’s interpretation. In 2:1 the RAPTURE is portrayed [”the coming of our Lord Jesus and our being gathered to him..”]. However; in 2:2 the Day of the Lord (wrath) is being portrayed- NOT the Rapture of the church. In verse 3 Paul is saying that the “apostasy” and “revealing of the lawless one” are unmistakable events that will precede the Day of the Lord as signposts. These events occur BETWEEN the Rapture (vs.1) and the Wrath (vs.2). The chronology of Rev.1-11 agrees with this. (BTW; in NO WAY do I believe the Rapture is imminent like most Futurist proclaim. There is MUCH that has to happen first; but once it all begins, it will go fast).

Even Revelation 12 speaks to this interpretation. It must be understood that antichrist (the man only), has been on the political scene for a good while before the events in 2Thes. even take place. As a shrewd political leader, his motives and intent are unknown. They are NOT REVEALED. In other words, he prospers by deception. However; after the “great dragon” is hurled down to the earth in Rev.12:13, Antichrist’s identity and motives are no longer in doubt for this is when he becomes possessed by Satan. The mask is off; he is fully REVEALED. When he rules the heavens, Satan, like a skilled puppeteer, is the master of deception. But when he loses that strategic position and is cast down to the earth, he also loses a great deal of his lying power and he is constrained to carry on his warfare IN the skin of a man thereby filling him with Satanic rage. This “revelation” comes immediately AFTER the birth of the Manchild (the Rapture).

As to the event called the “apostasy” or “rebellion”, there are a couple differing thoughts about it but neither of them negate the scenario above. That is a discussion all by itself.

3. “The tribulation that’s fast approaching is NOT “The Wrath of God”.”

I am very glad that you also recognize this truth. There is MUCH confusion that stems from thinking otherwise. I agree with you that the “Day of the Lord” is fully and completely nothing less than the unbridled wrath of a holy God! It is the time of wrath without mixture of mercy of any kind. I will; however, take issue with part of your timing statements. You said that the Wrath “begins once the Manchild is snatched up”. You are correct that it begins after the snatching away; but it does not begin until 3.5 years LATER. This 3.5 years is the period known as the Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:14) which begins immediately after the Rapture of the Manchild. It is also the time of seals 1 through 6. Mercy and grace are still operating and SCORES of people get saved (Rev.7). Again, the chronology of Rev 1-11 bears this out (along w/ Daniel; Joel and Zephaniah).

I also have to disagree with you on how long the Wrath will last. The Wrath does not begin until the 3.5 year Great Tribulation is completely OVER. This is simultaneously the close of the Age of Grace and the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. This final week is 7 more years long and it is ALL Wrath! However, Israel is protected from God’s wrath but only for the first 3.5 years (”In the middle of the seven” Dan. 9:27; 12:11). The 3.5 years that follow is the time known as Jacob’s Trouble (Jer. 30.7). It is the time that Israel is no longer exempt from God’s wrath (”but he will be saved out of it”!).

Lastly, concerning Rev. 1-11, you said; “but I do see it as an outline for the rest of the book.” Again I have to say that the significance of these chapters being an “outline” is no small thing; however, this implies that the interpretation of each chapter is accurate. For instance, if I told you that the interpretation of Rev. 4 and 5 clearly has (and MUST have) the saints in heaven; you would probably disagree. Hence, our hermeneutic would not be the same. I see one thing; you see another. When you have a minute or two, jump over to Rev. 5:7 and read my brief nutshell commentary. It speaks to the heart of the matter but much more can be said.

Well Candace, if you’ve made it this far, congratulations! It can now be said that I too am accustomed to weariness!! Please post when you can but NOT at the expense of rest! Promise?

Good night and God bless.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/20/2011 06:12 am

OOPs. You DO understand arguements & tantrums. Thank God, you are human.:) Now I agape you more.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/19/2011 21:26 pm

Scott, Yes, I embrace I Pet 1:7 You made me laugh when you said you’re not familar w/ such challenges such as “arguing w/ God & tantrums”. Obviously you’ve not experienced frustratinon w/ God when a peticular “trial” just won’t come to an end. I cry, I beg, I repent & pick myself up & start all over again. ;/

Concerning the chronological order of Revelation….you win but I do see it as an outline for the rest of the book. I’m not real interested in arguing this point…it’s an incredible book w/ much Blessings for those who diligently study it!

As for the “true church” issue, I should really rephrase the “false” church to the apostate church. Many, too many, will fall away when tribulation begins to bear down & I fear many will take the mark of the Beast & will be eternally lost.(Rev 14:9-11) I am reminded of the “inner circle”. Those most close to Y’shua. They, unlike the multitudes, knew his heart & experienced intimacy w/ him. Much of the church is like unto the virgins w/out number. They be giddy at the thought of Him but have never paid the price to leave Passover & “know” Him. The inner circle (3) is a type of the True Church, the Bride/Manchild/Remnant that not only knows him intimately but is “in love” w/ the Bridegroom & are as focussed & single eyed as Abishag in Song of Sol was. She had matured to a Bride now ready to be “swept away”!(Song of Sol 8:7, & 14) Nuff said???

I’ve read a bit more of your posts in Rev 12 & again…thank you for such a vivid & beautiful protrayal of the Woman & of the Manchild. Your understanding is like wine for me because so few “get it”. Thank you too for embracing the revelation of the “moon” as our foundation & yes, it would be utterly heartbreaking to see this taken as “replacement theology”, which indeed is NOT.

Now on to some of the issues that seem to trouble you as a “road block”. I see it only as an opportunity to explore the word of God a bit deeper. Treasure hunting if you will. There is much more for us to open up, share, learn & middle shelf that which hasn’t found it’s right place yet. I do believe ones such as you & I “must” get it right to help those searching. There’s a glut of misinterpretation out there but there is only ONE Truth. Someones (and I mean ONES) must find it so ALL truth can be restored back to the Church in these last days.

I DO believe the tribulation is a testing for the Church. Since the book of Acts, it’s had to endure much tribulation.(Acts 8:1, 2…) Even now thoughout the world, the underground church suffers for their faith & many are put to death through torture etc. Are we in the US so much better & have attained to such a high level of spirituality that we need no persecution? Or are we so blessed we’re haughty & high minded, much like Laodicea. Y’shua guarranteed we’d be tested & tried.(Matt 13:20-21) no root; (Matt 24:9-13) persecu. hated, false prophets,, love grows cold, stand firm until the end. (Jn 16:1-4) they will kill you thinking they’re serving God…”Remember, I warned you” Our faith is made perfect by the test we must endure (James 1:4)( Matt 5:48)(II The 1:5)&(Acts 5:41)

The tribulation that’s fast approaching is NOT “The Wrath of God”. I think this is where so much confussion has come in concerning the Rapture. If one does a study on “The Day of the LORD” you will see that is speaking clearly of God’s Wrath. Everywhere that the time keys are given, we see the Wrath is 3.5 yrs. If the tribulation period is 7 yrs & the wrath of God is 3.5, what happens in the first 3.5 yrs???? Let me share w/ you why I am a mid-trib or more correctly…pre-wrath believer. I may get you “going” a bit, but please, Scott bear w/ me & allow the Spirit of Truth to open your thinking & see what happens.

We will be kept from (Greek “ek” out of) that hour of severe testing. (Rev 3:10) but everything that can be shaken will be shaken (Heb 12:27 & 28)so what remain is a Kingdom that can’t be shaken! Here’s where the Manchild ministry comes in, finshing Y’shuas’s last 3.5 yrs of ministry. I discribed that in some detail in post 18. I’ll come back to this ministy after I’ve explained the pr-wrath rapture as I see it, not as so many have written combining 2nd Coming scriptures w/ rapture verses thus blurring them all.

In Rev 12 we find the woman in great travail! This is no light thing. She is groaning, screaming even & she is in the last stages of labor. i.e. intense bearing down & suffering. Throughout scripture we encountr “labor pains” i.e can a nation be born in a day, the kindgdom of heaven is brought forth w/ the beginning of sorrows “labor”.(Matt 24:7-10) but this is not the end. This is just the equipping of the saints for what’s to come before the rapture.(Acts 14:22) Why is the woman going through such intense pressure? Part of it is the “shaking” another part is the “whole creation is “groaning” for the manifestation of the Sons of God”. (Ro 8:19-22-24) These Sons are the Manchild! This Manchild Co. is walking in full inheritance, doing the greater works, ful w/ the H.S. operating in ALL the gifts of the Spirit & manifesteing all the Fruit of the Spirit i.e they’ve entered fully into Tabernacles & are strangers & sojourners in this world (in it but of it. Jn 17:15)

The Woman, the visible church, is feeling the presence of this manchild & causes the church much distress as the one world govenment has it’s sights on her & anything that’s not approved of, will be targeted. She’ll loose special status such as tax exemption etc. With a Co. of Saints not willing to compromise any of God’s anointing (the Book of Acts Church)they put great stress on the Woman & she becomes more vulnerable to persecution from the government.( we’re seeing some that right now as it’s being formed) She MUST rid herslef of this “Manchild” lest she be maryted because of them! Hence, the groaning to be delivered of this Company. In the meantime the Manchild/Bride goes on doing the greater works, healing, prophesying, convicting & bringing in the greatest harvest of the last of the Church age. Satan knows this company of saints is somewhere but he can’t find it due to God’s keeping them hidden inside the visible church. You can just sense the heated hunt to find them! Once the Woman has rid herself of this very real threat, i.e birth, Satan is poised to destroy these as he couldn’t do w/ Messiah, but……God did it again!!! He harpazoed (Greek: snatched from the fire) this Company up to His Throne & safety & Satan is more furious than the word fury can denote!!!

All this is going on in the 1st 3.5 yrs of the tribulation but if we look closely, the Wrath of God begins once this Manchild is snatched up! (Mark 13:14)(Dan 12:11)( I Thes 2:4) In Rev 13 & continuing we can observe the empowering of the Antichrist as Satan, himself enters him & now what had appeared as the messiah the world had been clamoring for, shows his true colors & God begins to pour out His wrath. And if not shortened no flesh would be saved. (if you haven’t listned to: www.endofamerica44.com yet, please do.)

I base my pre-wrath position on the scripture that opened this forum: 2 Thes 2:3: Certain things MUST happen first BEFORE the Raputre can take place. I am so weary right now I must stop but when I return I will present these prophesies & why the rapture is not imminent & why it can not be pre-trib. Be patient w/ me, it will all fall into place.

God Bless you, Scott w/ His Mighty Love…Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/19/2011 21:06 pm

Candace,

I’ve only got a few minutes before work this morning and I wanted to say that there are NO paranthetical verses at all between chapters 2 through 11. This becomes the very key of clarity or confusion. I understand the temptation to make these said verses paranthetical; but quite frankly, it isn’t warranted exegetically. If one refuses this temptation and lays aside the conclusions drawn from it, truths will emerge that do not violate the integrity of the text. However, as someone who is not unaccustomed with “struggle”, you know it will require more effort. So what’s new?

Thanks for sharing your personal situation more clearly. Whereas I’m not entirely familiar with the particular challenges you’re facing, “arguments and tantrums” I understand. The proving of our faith comes in many forms and they’re all apportioned by a loving God for our good; and even though they may have already accomplished the work intended, they sometimes remain as grace-filled reminders until the Day of Christ. But even grace is sometimes hard to embrace! [Surely you must be clinging to 1 Peter 1:7].

Please know that you are blessed today.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/18/2011 14:15 pm

Scott…..you’re one exciting man in your articulation! Your extaordinary gift of communicating your thoughts is most satisfying. I am more than honored to be “realy” sharing w/out the battle. I don’t do battle very well(unless it’s intercession & SPIRITUAL WARFARE against the enemy. That I do w/ a vengence!) Against my brethren is always a most grieving thing. And I recognize debate for you guys is a healthy & probably a satisfying pastime. It’s not so for me. Please bear w/ me if you can suffer the feminine side.

As to your inquiry….I struggle daily w/ a wicked infirmity. I was diagnosed w/ lupus a few years ago & the battle rages at times. The pain, the endless fatigue, the nausea & a myriad of other symptoms have stolen my vitality & zest for life & I was not one bit happy about it! I’ve had my arguements w/ God & I’ve thrown my tantrums but through it all I have to stand on faith & if one part of His Word is true than all of it is true & “by his stripes, I was healed”. In the worst of the flares, I am tested to my limit of endurance because the pain can be so great. But in those times, I’ve had some of my most incredible encounters. Maybe some day I will share that. For now, I thank you for your heart & I covet your prayers & I can’t wait to get back to this most awesome discussion!!!

I was just about to shut down & go to bed…it’s now 1:00 am & shame on me I should have been tucked in 2 hrs ago. But I caught your latest post & just had to read it. You’ve brought many pertinent points as you always do & I’m eager to get to them all! I’m not a quiter by any means & I just know God’s got a plan & we’ll come to greater truth & intimacy in our Beloved if we can give each other grace. I have much toward you but I had to contend for it:(

p.s. I’ve re-read Rev 1-11 again with your suggestion & I do see the chronology there but I also see the parenthetical verses such as Rev 7:1-17 & Rev 10:1-11:14. Also, of course, after chapter 11 there’s a lot of going forward & backward & I’m too tired to make any sense right now. God willing, we’ll pick it back up w/ the questions & statements you’ve just posted.

p.s.s please listen to www.endofamerica44.com if you have time. It’s an eye opener!

With much Thankfulness, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/18/2011 08:27 am

Candace,

I trust you’re feeling a little better but I get the sense you are battling an entrenched infirmity. I hope I’m wrong because I certainly would not wish this on you; but if you are, rest assured that I will continue to pray for you at least as often as we exchange posts! Perhaps (if you wish) you could provide more details so I could pray more strategically.

Again, I want to thank you for starting this discussion. Now that I know you are pre-wrath I can clearly see the roadblock in our path up ahead; but whether or not we resolve the timing of the rapture, it certainly looks like we can glean much from each other.

Thanks for taking the time to read my earlier posts. I won’t have to re-invent the wheel so-to-speak on Rev. chapter 12 now. It thrills me that you track so well on this amazing vision (so few do). I particularly like what you said about the moon under the Woman’s feet. I have been viewing the meaning as related to AUTHORITY: the Sun rules the light (truth); the Moon rules the darkness (error); and the Woman has authority over the darkness.

But you portray it as the FOUNDATION (the OT); that is, the foundation of the NT Church! I prefer this interpretation far more (Romans 11)! The Light of the NT clearly illuminates the foundation on which the Woman stands. The danger, however, would be for Replacement theologians to view the woman as having authority OVER the OT (as in REPLACING it). May it never be!!

I want to hear more about the 3.5 years you have alluded to a couple of times regarding the fulfilling of Christ’s ministry. Please elaborate when you can.

In the meantime, I can see we are at the roadblock of the Rapture timing. I’m certain we both agree that having the correct timing is crucial. If we get that wrong, all of our applications concerning it will be wrong. It is in this light that I want to re-address a few comments regarding the “True” Church.

The backdrop for this topic seems to be: What is meant by the Apostasy of the church? The Greek word means “falling away; or defection”. I am of the opinion that this is not a false church (or false brethren). Rather, these are spiritually weak brethren (carnal) who DEFECT (fall away or run away) in the face of GREAT trial. Their lack of purity corresponds directly with their lack of courage. Think of Peter in the test of Gethsemane. First he ran away and then he denied Christ 3 times. In type, this is the nature of the trial (judgment) that will come upon the church (soon?).

Is this not the very picture of Revelation 12? Consider the imagery of vs 4;

“The dragon stood in FRONT of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might DEVOUR her child the moment it was born.”

Everybody is so quick to portray the Tribulation as the great testing of the Church but that is not so. Right here in vs 4 we have a picture of the Church in an extraodinarily vulnerable position that PRECEDES the Tribulation. Satan with all his diabolical power has managed to poise himself for what appears to be a certain kill. He has sought to have this advantage ever since he last had it at Calvary. The picture of vs 4 is very much the same as the picture of Haman’s advantage over all the Jews in the book of Esther. He was poised perfectly to have them all destroyed and it looked like there was no way out. The very same scene is portrayed in type at the Red Sea as Pharaoh seems to have all the Children of Israel right where he wants them. Of course, the Sea opens up and they all pass through to safety. In Revelation 12, it’s the sky that opens up instead (the Rapture)!

At this point, the Manchild goes safely to heaven while his siblings remain on the earth to face the wrath of the Dragon. Prior to this, Satan was not very concerned with these siblings. (His focus had been like a laser on the Holy Manchild.) This is a picture of the apostate carnal/sleeping saints who were found unworthy to be caught up in the Rapture and now find themselves face to face with their ancient Foe in the time of the Tribulation (vs. 17). What these Laodecian saints failed to do in the time of peace (witness for Jesus), they are now forced to do in the time of Trouble.., at the cost of their very lives (Rev 7:14). The Manchild saints did not run from death when the Church was face to face with the Dragon himself. But his siblings did. (He who seeks to save his life..).

[Matthew 13:36-43 is the only picture of a false church that I know of; and even it is not really a false church; however, MANY of the brethren are].

Two more points about the Rapture of the Manchild; just like Mordecai was suddenly exalted to the position Haman once occupied; and Daniel was exalted over his accusers (Dan. 6); so also the Manchild is exalted over the Dragon. And like Haman along with Daniel’s accusers was cast down, so also the Dragon is cast down. But now the Dragon “is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short” and he proceeds to destroy the offspring of the Woman. This is the Great Tribulation spoken of in 7:14. It is NOT part of Daniel’s 70th week. It precedes the 70th week and lasts 3.5 years. So, from the time of the Rapture to the return of Christ in power on Olivet, 10.5 years must pass (not merely 7).

It is the testimony of these Tribulation saints that bring in a GREAT harvest of souls as they willingly give their life to martyrdom (Rev. 7:9; 20:4). But the Bride is the Manchild.

Concerning the pre-wrath position; where do you believe the wrath of God is portrayed in Revelation? Where does it begin and where does it end. And how do you define the ‘wrath’ of God?

I look forward to your reply!

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/18/2011 07:03 am

Hello Scott….thank you for the sacrifice of prayer, the battle is hard.
I want to thank you too for mentioning the “contention”. It will have great significance as we explore the “True Church”. Oh, Father, I have so many things to share w/ my brother & where do I begin????

I’ve read many of your early posts in Rev 12. You have utterly thrilled my spirit!!!! So very few have understood the prophetic “future” of this passage & the awesome time keys it holds! You’ve done a superior job! I had to stop reading some of the comments as they make my stomach literally turn & I can’t endure that right now.

I would like to imput just a little of my understanding of “the woman” & I believe it aligns perfectly w/ what you’ve posted.
1. She is standing on the moon which represents the OT. It is our foundation, our Hebraic roots, everything in God’s plan is there but it has no light of it’s own.
2. She is wrapped in the “light” of the Sun/Son. The NT gives the light of revelation to the OT. i.e the New is hidden all through the Old & the Old is revealed in the New. I just love how God has done this. Intricately laid out from beginning to end, nothing neglected & all unfolding before our eyes.
3. Twelve stars on her head are the 12 Apostles as they are the 12 foundation stones (Rev 21:14) The 12 Tribes are the 12 gates. This woman is a picture of the “One New Man” both Jew & Gentile come together & is preserved for the wrap up of the Wrath of God! (maybe we can discuss this later as I have a thrilling revelation of the secondary identity of the woman.)

The Manchild is just as you have presented him….that Remnant that will rule & reign w/ Y’shua w/ a rod of iron. These are those who have become the True Church, the Bride w/out spot or wrinkle or any such thing walking in agape finishing out their Savior/King’s last 3 1/2 yrs of ministry. God leaves nothing undone, hanging or incomplete. Y’shua was “cut off” in the “middle” of the week(Dan 9:26)but not for himself. Someone, a company of people walking in the same authority, doing the greater works than he, fulfiling his “great commission” i.e. Heal the sick, Raise the dead & Cast out demons; will finish Y’shua’s week of yrs making that 69th week a perfect 7. If Y’shua is our Head & the government of God is on his shoulders, then the Bride/Manchild IS his shoulders!(Is 9:6) And WE complete the unfinished week before the Rapture!(there is a discrepancy about the 70 wks that I can’t possibly go into here. Maybe later)

I agree w/ you in part about the True Church. Yes, all of these “conditions” make up the church at large but there will be a great apostacy. Many of Laodicea won’t repent, those stating Lord, lord will be cast into outer darknes (forming part of the apostacy) & the 5 foolish virgins were not be allowed into the wedding feast, no oil/holy spirit (they too may make up a portion of the apostacy) It is my belief that this apostate church is NOT the true church & will most probably take the mark of the Beast & be eternally lost. The rest of them will not be sold out, in love w/ each other & w/ Y’shua therefore they will not be raptured & will face the “wrath of the Dragon” (Rev 12:17) & be martyred.

I see the True Church as the church of Philadelphia. They are the only other church besides Smyrna that Y’shua had nothing negative to say to them. Philadelphia & Laodicea are the 2 remaining church types seen in these last days. Not that the suffering church of Smyrna isn’t seen i.e China’s underground church etc. but even these underground churches fall in the catagory of the Church of Philadelphia & will be the raptured church.

The “True Church” I speak of is revealed in Song of Sol: My Dove, My Undefiled & those that “loved not their lives unto death” (Rev 12:11) & were martyred for His name’s sake. I believe we are beginning to see the sifting even now. The “wheat” will soon be separated from the tares & the sheep from the goats. The Grapes & The Olives will be crushed to release their treasure. Nothing will make that more evident than the shaking that’s about to hit! 2011 will begin the fall of our nation. This generation will see the collapse of the US like we never imagined could happen. We’re on the brink of total economic collapse, in debt by “trillions”, moral decay & godlessness has swept our land, we murder our unborn & think nothing of it & condemn Israel for sacrificing her babies to Moleck & think we’re any different. This government will turn our backs on Israel & force her to divide God’s land & He’s promised to open the New Madrid fault & divide ours. God’s about to unlease tribulation & we’ll see the four horsemen begin to ride. (put aside food, water & barter now. You will be thankful you did)
Judgement first to His church to shake her from a drug induced slumber & then the nations will begin to fall. There’s nothing like persecution to make the Church arise & become a standard once more. How else can Isaiah 60 be fulfilled if not through the Church arising to God’s standard, unto a full grown man, unto the full measure & stature of Christ(Eph 4:13)in the midst of the gross darkness of Isaiah 60???? Is the servant greater than his Master???(Jn 13:16) If Y’shua is our Pattern, than like Him we must become. Gen 1:26 which is the prophetic promise of God when the Son/Messiah finally came. Created instantly in the “image” of God i.e. our spirit & “made” which in Hebrew means “laboriously handcrafted” into his/Y’shua’s likeness. Therein is the “let Us” make man in “our” image & likeness. Incredible Revelation!!!! That prophetic word is still being preformed in us “from glory to glory”. (2 Cor 3:18)

The so called church of today has lowered God’s standard for the real church to such a despicable level that one is hard pressed to even find the church!!! That’s why you said…”I LOVE this portrayal of the progressive intimacy” & in an earlier post you stated but you did not see it manifest (paraphrased)!
I must come back to the beginning of your last post about us being aqcuainted through such contention. I am no one & don’t proclaim to be but I and many were blessed by God Himself to be placed in a church moving in revival. He warned us that the deliverance we were experiencing was not the end all. He was preparing those who would get serious, embrace deliverance, become humble & prepare, that He was about to pour out a baptism of Agape (unconditional love). None of us knew what to expect or how it would look, but all we knew was, we wanted more of God! When it came it was unlike anything we/I had ever known. I saw my brethren through the eyes of my Savior & I was moved w/ compassion & now the question…”how could I ever lay my life down for “them/you”, was answered. I would gladly do it because of LOVE! All my walls were gone & I no longer had any defenses. When someone attacks me w/ sarcasm, ridicule, scoffing or mocking it hits deep in my heart because there are no walls of protection. I am wounded so deeply, I crumble. It is then I must go to the Lord & weep for the wound to be healed & to help me not close my heart of tenderness, that He’s so graciously given, & forgive, forgive & forgive lest I too start slinging the darts of the enemy.(I Pet 3:9)

I don’t say this to puff myself up that somehow I have attained. I haven’t. I say this because it is but a foretaste of what the True Church is to be walking in. The Bride will have this kind of love & compassion & she will be like her Bridegroom for she will “know” him. God by His Sovereign Grace has given this baptism to whom He has pleased. I know they’re out there but I know they are few. That grieves me so deeply I have no words. But I do know it will be a great sign & many will be saved because for the first time they will be touched by the real church & the love of God that sets us apart from all others & “in this, the world will know you are MY disciples” (Jn 13:3)

I too have many, many wonderful things I ache to share w/ you, Scott & I pray I have that chance. Oh, by the way….I ascribe to the pre-wrath rapture & am anxious to share w/ you, why.

Thank you again for the prayer & now I must rest. In His Grip…..Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/17/2011 22:14 pm

Candace,

It’s a curious thing that we became acquainted through such a contentious (and unresolved) debate over the Godhood of Jesus but find such common ground on these matters. I concur that “puzzle pieces” will come together and; to mix metaphors, the fog will lift on the obscure. Your last post testifies to it. God is at work here and he will preserve you for he is working through you. I will pray.

Thanks for clarifying your position on the Rapture and the Return. As we venture down this path together, I find myself expecting to run into a major roadblock so please forgive me for being so cautious at the start. Perhaps we will run into one for the prophetic path is pregnant with peril! (I couldn’t resist:-). But for now, it seems we can travel quite a long way together.

I’m going to comment on your points in reverse order:

Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles:
I LOVE this portrayal of progressive intimacy. Thanks. It tracks with everything I too believe. These feasts were not only celebrations for the revealed power and goodness of God but as types, they are as powerfully symbolic as any vision of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah or John! Symbols that speak more clearly and distinctly than any language ever could and whose translations are not obscured by time. Oh the wisdom of God!

The “true or false” church:
I have to disagree with you on this point. Not so much because it’s germane to our present discussion, but because of other things we have yet to examine. I do not see a “false” church anywhere in the scripture. Like you, I see the “form of godliness” with the denial of power everywhere.., in the CHURCH. Even your Passover example of the “barely saint” is still in the “true” church. How graphically this was portrayed by that first generation that came out of Egypt; that generation that died in the wilderness; the “barely saints” who escaped the bondage of corruption in Egypt yet only inherited the wilderness portion of the land promised to Abraham. By not moving on to Pentecost and Tabernacles so to speak, they forfeited the “better inheritance” but they themselves were still saved.

The NT speaks to this in a number of places. The immoral believer in 1 Cor. 5:5 is a classic example of the “barley saint”. In the extreme, even a church that is FULL of “barely saints” whether pew or pulpit, though not a PURE church is still a TRUE church. Even Laodecians who have gone so far as to exclude Jesus from their assembly is a true church. Remember, Jesus himself addresses them as his church and is even pictured holding the seven churches (warts and all) IN HIS HAND. His call to those who have ears to hear; to “come out” from among them, is NOT for the purpose of being saved- by definition, the Church is a saved body. The call is to OVERCOME! This was the very same call to the first generation out of Egypt, but only Joshua and Caleb (and Moses) had the “ears to hear”.

Lastly, I was encouraged by your analysis of Rev. 11. I believe you have this correct regarding the 2nd Coming and the millennial reign and your supporting verses. However, you also said:

“Because the book of Rev is not in chronological order..,”

I agree and disagree. I’m going to ask you to do something if you have not done it before. And I ask you to do it by setting aside your entire understanding of the book of Revelation while you do it. As a right understanding will reveal the precious treasure hidden in the SEQUENCE of the Feasts of God; so also with the Apocalypse of John. As important as it is to rightly interpret the symbolism, so also the ORDER of the symbols.

Therefore, please read Revelation chapter 1 through 11 and stop. Go no further. I contend that the entirety of these chapters is rigidly chronological. Not only is this so but two other very important things as well: [1] The chronology of these chapters begins where the Book of Acts leaves off and continues UNBROKEN all the way through the church age culminating in the return of Christ in Rev. 11. [2] With very LITTLE reservation; there is NO symbolism in chapters 2 through 11. You will be tempted to view many things as symbolic; however, please lay the temptation aside for MOST of them will not be so. You will have questions about all these points for they will likely go “against your grain”; but please hold them for now. We can discuss them later.

I have much to share with you about these matters as you have to share with me about the Feasts. As bookends on a shelf; they both MUST support the same things if the Author is truly God.

Gotta go. Take heart- God is healing you.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/14/2011 15:31 pm

Scott, I delight in your choice of words i.e “the song of our redemption as well as the revelation of our King”….just beautiful. I feared I might not have made my constrast clear enough but was trusting you’d see it anyway. Please forgive me & I’ll do that now.

Concerning the trumpets, which ones blow when & the Rapture vs the 2nd Coming. Have no fear, the Rapture is quite distinct from the 2nd Coming! And yes, this does seem like the perfect time to give my thoughts on the timing & placement of the Rapture. So here goes & I truly pray we’ll be able to walk this journey together unto it’s conclusion. I believe there will be some astounding things we’ll learn from each other. Those “puzzle pieces” coming together:)

The last trump of Rev 11 will herald in the Triumphant King of kings who’s appearing will bring the war of Armageddon to a screeching halt. This is the 2nd Coming that begins the Millennial Reign. I base that on (Rev 11:15-19)(Is 27:13; Dan 2:44; Matt 24:31; Rev 10:7) there are more. This is NOT the rapture. Because the book of Rev is not in chronological order, it seems to confuse many. I’m open to correction….can’t come into “all Truth” w/out it.

The Last Trump that calls us to the “Ingathering/feast of trumpets” in I Cor 15 is NOT the judgement trumpet. It’s the last trump sounded in the feast of trumpets. After 100 blasts are blown, the Tekiah Gedolah is sounded with the Golden Trumpet, (I believe) & we are caught up! The Feast of Tabernacles, in it’s entirety, is a glorious feast of much celebration in the natural. Think how much more exciting & glorious in it’s spiritual fulfillment! It’s only fitting that Y’shua would come for His Bride at this time! The 7th trump of Rev is one of fierce Wrath & there’s nothing to be celebrated here. One can only cry out & pray that soon God’s wrath will be satisfied & it will end. I do not espouse to the post-trib rapture.

Before I share w/ you my views on the timing of the Rapture, I would like to unfold what I mean by the True Church. I’m going to have to give you many scripture references for the Rapture & that might have to come my next post. I’ve not had the luxury of reading your Rev 12 posts yet & I want to do that as well before I share when I feel the scriptures are revealing the timing of the Catching Away.
About this True Church. God has always had His Remnant. Those that would not bow & honored Him in all His statutes. Throughout all of scripture we see the remnant & God’s promies for restoration, blessing etc. It’s no different w/ the Church. You said it in an earlier post & also in post #15 i.e. a Laodician Church (complacent, apathetic insolent …) God says, you pay homage to Me w/ your lips but your heart is far from Me. In II Thess 2 we read of a “great” apostacy. These are so called born again Christians but they’ve turned from the Truth & are not lovers of the truth.
(2 Tim 3:2-5) is a very good example of the “false” church, having a form of godliness but denying th power. Many sit in churches, w/ a selfrighteous attitude but they don’t walk in agape. They don’t have the Father’s heart for the lost & destitute. They care only about themselves & their “position”. Many sit right there in churches & never have humbled themselves to really repent of their sins, thus never having a real born again conversion where they truly are a New Creation. I call these birth defects because they never do change. They never surrender the “old flesh man” & put on the new. No evidence of the new creation inside maturing from glory to glory. I am not judging them. I grieve for them because when the shaking begins they’ll be the 1st to fall because they have no real foundation & it’s all been a front.
Y’shua’s warning to Laodicia is a warning to a false church that needs to repent & get her act together lest she be lost forever. We see another glimpse of this false church in Matt 7:22…Lord,lord we did all these things in Your name….depart from Me you workers of iniquity, I know you not. They’re cast into outer darkness. They knew “of” him but they never took the time to “know” him!

I want to share w/ you a little on “HOW” the Feasts play so crucially in where we are in our maturation & position in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Passover: our introduction to our Savior & his God. The blood’s applied & we’re delivered from “Egypt”. Our dead spirit is made alive & we are reunited to God as Father. These are the “barely saints” (the first harvest, the least costly grain & is feed for animals). Many choose to camp right here & never conti. on to passionately seek Him. Passover is Redemption, we’re saved & we become “servants”.

Pentecost: Y’shua gave a “command”….”go to Jerusalem & WAIT unti the H.S. has come upon you”. It’s not an obtion. These are the Wheat Saints, a far more costly grain & most prized. Pentecost is the feast of Provision & we are now called “friend” Jn 15:15 And many have choosen to camp here never realizing there is so much more ahead.

Feast of Tabernacles: This is the “mature” fruit harvest. The Grapes & the Olives which are “crushed” for the wine/joy of the LORD & the Oil is the Spirit & Anointing of God! Tabernacles is “The Presence” & this is where a Bride is presented to her Bridegroom. Tabernacles is the invitation of God to leave the outer courts, past the holy place & enter into The Holy of Holies where we meet w/ Him face to face! I want desperately to share w/ you soon the connection of The Lord’s Supper w/ this very revelation. You will be forever changed.

This, my dear, dear brother is the “True Church”. If you want to see her progression as she matures into that Love Slave for Y’shua & a “Terible Army whose Banner over her is Love”…..read the Song of Solomon. Her whole maturation process is in clear view. In Song of Sol 6:8,9 you will see the “True Church”…..there are 3 score queens, 4 score concubines & virgins w/out number….but….My Dove, My undefiled is but One! Right here you see every position in the Church…passover, pentecost, tabernacles….servant, friend & beloved…..barely, wheat & mature fruit. WE choose which we’ll be. He would that ALL would come….many are called but few are chosen. I’ve committed myself to pay whatever it costs & be that Bride. I can’t do it w/out Grace & I’m dead in the water w/out His provision & forgivenss but once I tasted of it, I can’t turn back.

Scott, please would you pray for me…I’m entering into another flare & I am getting desperately ill. I can’t promise when I can visit w/ you but please know, this has been most uplifting.
In His Grip, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/14/2011 08:23 am

Candace,

I find your comments quite fascinating and I know these feasts play their part in the song of our redemption as well as the revelation of our King. Just HOW they do this will become more evident as time unravels.

I said in my last post that we will eventually have to deal with the timing and placement of the Rapture concerning all these things. Perhaps, now is the time. You said:

“In fact this last trump heralds in Y’shua’s coming in all his glory on a white horse w/ all the saints to stop the war of Armageddon & begin his reign!”

What you seem to be saying doesn’t track with my understanding. Are you saying that the Last Trump that signals the Rapture/Resurrection in 1Cor. 15 also signals the return of Christ at Armageddon? If you are, then it appears you are placing the Rapture at the end of the time of Jacob’s Trouble. For a multitude of reasons I don’t see how this is possible. Can you correct me if I’m misreading you; or else explain how you arrive at this conclusion? Thanks.

You also said:

“There is a level of seflessness & agape the “True Church” must be walking in before we’re ever ready to be raptured. Until it’s being manifested, don’t even “look up”.”

I like the sound of what you have said but sadly; I don’t see this anywhere in the scripture. To the contrary, I see quite the opposite happening. Perhaps it’s because I don’t know what you mean by the “True Church”. How can the Church be anything BUT the true church? Where do you see an example of a “false” church of Christ? I see an IMPERFECT church but when has it ever been perfect? I see a dysfunctional church but when has it ever had it all together? To go on; I see complacency, apathy, insolence and error in the church but I don’t see a false church. Perhaps you are making a contrast with cults like the Mormons; JW’s etc. and their false Christologies but they really can’t be categorized as a “church” in the NT sense. Please clarify your meaning. Thanks again.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/14/2011 05:45 am

Scott …answering your question concerning “the last trumpet” of I Cor 15:52. For reasons discussed prior, we’ve established that this trumpet can not be one of the 7 judgement trumps in Rev 11:15. In fact this last trump heralds in Y’shua’s coming in all his glory on a white horse w/ all the saints to stop the war of Armageddon & begin his reign!
When Y’shua comes for his Bride (as a thief in the night) he’s not on a horse, the multitude of saints are not w/ him & only those being raptured, see him. Clear distinctin between the 2 events. Paul is telling the Thess. that they “know” the season & are not ignorant,(Acts 17:1 Paul taught them in the synagogue) clearly the last trumpet will be the last trumpet blown for the Feast of Trumpets. 100 trumpet blasts are sounded during that feast & all 4 are distinct. The very last blast sounded is “Tekiah Gedolah” the longest note held & the loudest.

In every 7th yr, counting from the 1st feast of Tabernacles until the destruction of the each temple, would be the golden trumpet sounding the “Tekiah Gedolah” and means…in the Presence of the King. I do believe it is this trumpet blast that calls the “dead to rise first & we which are alive to be caught up to meet them in the air….In the history of the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles, all 3 feasts would be partaken of consecutively but for the Rapture, I do believe by the time the blast sounds, the Bride/Manchild is already that ripe & fragrant fruit unto the Lord & have already entered into At-One-ment & walking in experiential sinlessness & have been doing the greater works our Savior & King commissioned us to be doing. This Company will be in love w/ each other as they are in love with Him/Y’shua! Scripture says…if you say you love God but hate your brother, you are a liar.(I Jn 4:20) There is a level of seflessness & agape the “True Church” must be walking in before we’re ever ready to be raptured. Until it’s being manifested, don’t even “look up”.
Y’shua demonstrated it tirelessly & when he said…”a NEW Command” I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you & by this the world will know that you are my disciples”.
You’re hard pressed to see that demonstrated anywhere in the so called church. Rather we see gossip, rumor mongering, sowing discord (read Prov 6 & see what Yahweh has to say about that one)& every manner of pettiness, unforgiveness, self-righteous phariseeism etc ad nauseam. I garuantee you, Y’shua is not coming for a Bride like that. “A Glorious Bride w/out spot or wrinkle…” (Eph 5:27)

Because of the many stops & starts of God’s feast being celebtated due to the many captivities Israel has endured & the institution of pagan calendars, it becomes quite difficult to pin down the exact dates we are in & which is the 7th yr celebration & the exact time for Jubilee. But by calculating certain lunar eclipses (blood moons) & total solar eclipses, we can get close.
There is a sequence of eclipes that happen very seldom but believe it or not when they do, they always coincide w/ dramatic events dealing w/ Israel. (coincidence?)
These eclipses are called “Tetrads” which is a sequence of total lunar eclipses spring/fall & spring/fall of 2 consecutive years. 2014 begins the next Tetrad & the first Blood Moon falls on Passover Nissan/Apr 15, 2014 & again on Tabernacles Tishri/Oct 14, 2014. A total solar eclipse is scheduled for March 20, 2015 which heralds in another Tetrad….Nissan 15, 2015 & Tishri 15, 2015. I don’t know about you but these appear to be “signs in the heavens” to me. (Luke 21:11)

Now about the Next Jubilee year….we find the last Jubilee yr was 5727 (1967), the year of the 6 Day War. This was the “48th” Jubilee starting from the time of Ezra (3416). We are in the Hebrew Year of 5772 & the next Jubilee will be in 5776 or 2015.
After the destruction of the temple in 70 AD they reverted to counting 49 days in lue of the usual 50. I don’t fully understand this but any Rabbi could probably explain it.
What’s so fascinating now is this….If 2015 is the 49th Jubilee than the year following is the Yovel of all Yovels (Jubilee) which becomes a celebration like none other!!!

I have some remarkable timelines done w/ much percision that point this Jubilee to Tishri/Sept 2017???? These things I’m not certain of, I don’t have a mathematical head but I do know …..the “Season” is very close indeed!

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/13/2011 20:01 pm

Oh….about the next Jubilee, yes I do know when it will be & this is going to be quite a ride so strap on your seatbelt!

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/13/2011 00:06 am

Scott….this IS getting exciting now! You stole the words right out of my mouth concerning understanding the Woman of Rev 12! You couldn’t be more on the money! That is a huge “key” in the timing of the Rapture, who’s raptured & what has to take place before a Rapture can happen. Most get this valuable “key” wrong. Sorry, but they do.
I can’t believe how many forums you have going!!! I will certainly study your Rev 12 & get back to you w/ my thoughts.
About which trumpet is blown & when is no light matter. It deserves as much attention & meditation as any of God’s Feast do. God has purposely hidden secrets & time keys in all His feast & again those who are diligently seeking Him, will find those keys & be rewarded w/ His treasure He’s reserved for those who love Him. Have to get back w/ this later.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/13/2011 00:01 am

Candace,

I’m looking forward to your thoughts about the Woman in Rev 12. If you jump over to Rev. 12:1 you’ll see that I’ve already made a considerable number of posts over the past year or so starting on the first page. Perhaps you could look them over a little bit before sharing your thoughts on her identity and the prophetic significance. To me, chapter 12 is one of the most powerful keys to interpreting the whole of end time events. Get it right and many, many things come into a bright focus. Get it wrong and you’ll only go deeper into obscurity.

Regarding the Last Trump, I’m so glad you are not in the camp of the 7th Judgment Trumpet! I think we would have to end our discussion right here if you were. But could you please clarify which “trump” you think Paul is talking about. Is it the last blast that traditionally takes place ON Rosh Hashanah; or is there another trump at the END of the feast of Tabernacles that could be considered the Last Trump? How would the Thessalonians have taken it?

I don’t want the identity of this trumpet blast to bog us down but I think it will be helpful as I try to merge what I learn about the Feasts into my understanding of eschatology. I can see that we will soon have to examine the placement of the Rapture into the timeline of other events. You mentioned the Year of Jubilee, and yes, it would seem to me that it should play significantly into the timeline somewhere. How do you view Rev. 5 in this regard? (Check my post under Rev 5:7 when you get a chance).

Concerning the Jubilee, do you have any idea just when the next one is or has it been lost over time? My recollection is that the Jubilee year was only celebrated in its fullness a very few times in antiquity.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/12/2011 22:29 pm

Scott,
Dan 12:4 “But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end.” NKJ

There are prophecies that could only be revealed & understood now. Things that weren’t understood even 10 yrs ago are being made plain now for those diligent to keep searching God’s Word & seeking His face. i.e intimacy
I too have been in many a debate over “which” trumpet is Paul speaking of in I Cor 15:52. It never ceases to amaze me how quick some jump to a conclusion w/out really analyzing the scriptual setting just a little more carefully. There they go, off & running w/ a new theology that when scrutinized, doesn’t hold water. i.e THE LAST TRUMP. You, dear Scott are very astute….this one hasn’t taken you off course.
Why the letters to the Thessalonians were written in the 1st place. They were enduring such vicious persecution & martyrdom, they were convinced they had surly missed the Rapture. Paul wrote to assure them that was not the case. Cetain things had to happen 1st, pesecution & tribulation would come & Y’shua, himself warned…”you will have tribulation.”(Jn 16:33);(I Thes 5:2) These are more “time keys” for the “when”.
I Thes 5:2 shows us clearly, the Thes. were NOT ignorant of the “times”, “seasons” & “The Day of the Lord”! They had been taught well & knew God’s Feasts. i.e The Feast of Trumpets! Clearly the “last Trump” is speaking of the greatest feast yet to be fulfilled that ushers in the wedding feast of the Lamb! Lev 23:23 & Num 10:1-10. Silver trumpets were to be blown to call the people to assemble for God’s Feasts. Every 7th yr the “golden trumpet” was blown. We know that 7 means spiritual perfection & completeness. Eight meaning New Beginning
Seeing as Paul died around 63 AD & John of Patmos didn’t receive “The Revelation” until approx 90 AD, it is w/ much certainty that I can stand on the fact Paul was teaching the Last Trumpet would surely be connected to God’s Feast of Tabernacles & would come most definitely come in a year of JULBILEE (once every 50 yrs) when all wrongs were righted, all debts forgiven, all lost lands returned & a NEW beginning was to commence! What say you?!
The Rapture has absolutely NOTHING to do w/ the JUDGEMENT trumpets of God’s Wrath in the book of Revelation! I really don’t see how that could be any more clear yet many refuse to even consider it:( I’m feeling a little edgy as I hate to see these beautiful revelations, trampled.
When I get back to you we’ll talk about “that woman” & the 3 1/2 ministry.
In His Grip, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/12/2011 20:39 pm

Scott, You’ve tapped onto some of my most treasured scriptures & my passion runs deep for myself & my brethren to understand. I am excited by your superb knowledge of God’s Word & your passion for prophecy…I hold that same hunger to fully grasp it. I must admit we’ve (husband & me) been quite beat up at times daring to go against the “mainstream flow”.
For your questions, I can say, yes, yes & yes. I am quite excited to share w/ you some of the profound revelations God’s given me through study & teaching over my “30″ yrs of salvation. I, not unlike yourself, have been asking, knocking, seeking w/ everything I have because I will surly die if I can not “know” him. I am so grateful that I’ve been taught by some of the best & when it didn’t make sense I just kept seeking, studying etc until it did.
MY husband has taught eschatolgy for many years & we’ve had to “dump” a lot of old concepts as more prophecies are being fulfilled. God has promised to unfold His mysteries in these Last Days & for those who diligently seek Him, we won’t be disappointed. I think one of the most dynamic keys is….remain humble w/ a teachable spirit:)
I wish I had the time right now to answer you, but please know, my spirit is jumpomg up & down to do so & to hear your input for my further understanding. I have always believed we are all given pieces of “The Puzzle” & we need each other desperately to “see” the whole picture. Yahweh/God has done that on purpose lest we become puffed up & prideful in our own abilities. Makes us very dependant on one another doesn’t it:)

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/12/2011 00:45 am

For any Messianic Jew or Bible Scholars who might read this forum, I beg your forgiveness for my crude attempt to explain Yahweh’s Most Holy Convocations. Time is an ever present task master for me & this subject deserves far more eloquence than I can possilby bring. Again, please accept my deepest apologies. I understand the concepts, the types & the shadows but I fail miserably in the execution.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/11/2011 22:49 pm

Candace, (post #6)

Thanks again for beginning this thread. I know there is much for me to learn about the Jewish feasts. That is not to say I know nothing about them. I’ve been studying (not just reading) the Scriptures since my conversion 30 years ago. I’ve always known the Feasts

were riches ready to be mined, much like the Temple and the Ark of God’s covenant, but I have never intentionally picked up the shovel and begun to dig. Perhaps, now is the time.

OTOH, I have been very intentional studying prophecy for the past 15 years and, of course, it’s a passion. Once the “Kingdom of God is within you”, how can you do anything else but pursue it?! Types and shadows abound everywhere if the learner has “eyes to see and ears to hear”. Sadly, I concur that many (most?) do not. I am not unfamiliar with the experience of Pentecost either (where else does one get the “eyes and ears ” he/she needs to pursue holiness and the Kingdom?).

But the Kingdom is eternal and the pursuit is perpetual because it is ever expanding so no one can fully say “I understand it” any more than one can plumb the depths of God himself. That said, however, Jesus is very intent on preparing his Bride so he draws us and shows us “treasures” that we need to understand (Matt 13:52).

Now, speaking of treasures, in light of the Feasts, what do you think the “last trump” is that Paul speaks of in 1Cor 15:52? He clearly seems to connect it with the timing of the Rapture (also 1Thes 4:16). I’ve met many people who are “certain” that it is the 7th (last) Trumpet judgment in the book of Revelation. I flatly reject that for MANY reasons. Could the last blast of the shofar on Rosh Hashanah (tekiah gedolah) be what Paul is talking about? Hence; the (beginning of the) “ingathering” is in Heaven, not on the earth; and I would suggest that it is the “manchild” of Rev 12 that is the firstfruits of the saints in heaven?

What’s your thought?

Also, when you have time, can you please elaborate on this intriguing statement:

“The “True” Church is to finish out the last 3 1/2 yrs that Y’shua has been “cut off”..”

How do you arrive at this? Why 3.5 years?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/11/2011 22:45 pm

Scott, No, I meant it just as I wrote it. The feast of taberancles is (3) feasts in one just as passover is (3) feast. There’s much typology here.

Taberancles begins w/ the “Feast of Trumpets” which calls for
the “ingathering”. All of Israel is commanded to come to Jerusalem for this gloriious feast of celebration, thanksgiving & forgiveness!

The 2nd feast is the “Feast of Atonement”. On this day the high priest would enter the Holy of holies as the advocate for all of Israel & sprinkle the blood of various sacrificed animals on the altar to atone for all sins committed that year. The Levitical priests would tie a rope around the High Priest’s ankle to drag him out should the Presence of God overcome him & he fall dead inside the sanctuary (Holy of holies). The other priests knew better than enter the Holy Place indiscriminately lest they too be struck dead on the spot. The only way to retrieve the high priest was to drag him out if something dramatic happened. Do you realize that there has been NO atonement or forgiveness for the Jews for these past 2000 yrs because they rejected their Messiah & God purposely destroyed their temple, as any of the blood sacrifices now would be an abomination to Him. He gave them His Lamb & they rejected it! They pretend to celebrate Tabernacles by coming togethr every yr for Rosh Hashanah. No temple, no sacrifices, no forgiveness. All they can do is celebrate their new year.

The (3rd) feast is the “Feast of Booths” or Sukkot. This is a time of “shutting” themselves away w/ God after the harvest of the fragrant fruits of the their/our labor were brought in & laid before Almighty God in a great celebration of thankfulness! The scriptures say they were as a sweet aroma unto God. And after the high priest had offered the burnt offerings & the sin offerings unto God & He/Yahweh had accepted them, now the Jews entered their temporary dwellings (booths) to be alone w/ God for 7 days & meditate on His Goodness & detach themselves from everything worldly or carnal. At these times, the people were focused on Him alone & the world had no hold or ties on them. You can see the awesome types being displayed for us as God’s grafted us in as covenant people & as the Bride of Christ.

1. The Trumpets (by the spirit) will begin to call us to an incredible “ingathering” as One Body, in Holiness & One Accord as the true Church. Whether in close proximity or separated by miles, we’ll know one another by the Spirit & walk glorious Agape that lays it’s life down for each other. The NT Church walked in that, why aren’t we????
2. Atonement or At-One-Ment will be the time of “experiencial” sinlessness! Now we walk in “legal” forgivenss & I’m so glad for it! But there is a time fast approaching when the Bride of Christ will truly be w/out spot or wrinkle or any such thing & partake of the fullness of what Y’shua’s Blood bought on that cross. We will be perfectly joined to our Savior & Bridegroom as our Glorious Head over His Body, the Church & we will walk in one accord & agape that befits our King! We can go into our perfection & the scriptures that support it a bit later.
3. The Feast of Booth/Sukkot is the time just prior to our being “harpazoed” away! Now we are nothing more than sojourners & strangers to this earth. We are walking in experiencial sinlessness, doing the Grater Works Y’shua prophesied we’d do in his name & there will be God’s Shekiah Glory radiating from w/in us just as it did when Moses came down from the Mt Sinai & as it did when Y’shua gave us a glimpse of His divine nature (the very nature we are to become partakers of) on the Mt of Transfiguration. Those who are “making themsleves ready” will become that Bride Y’shua is anxiously awaithg to snatch away & take to his Father’s house for the wedding supper of the Lamb! This company of people will have no earthly ties w/ a single eye for her Bridegroom & will literaaly fulfill (Is 60:1-5) as a Glorious Light in the midst of gross darkness.

That darkness is beginning now to close in. Soon will come great shaking & lawlessness that makes what we’re exp. today….nothing. Principalities & Powers are being released even now that have been reserved expressly for these last days. Judgement must come to the House of God first if we’re to be of any use to those lost & full of fear as things begin to tremble. Judgement is redemptive & it is always meant ot turn us back to God. Heb 12:28 says everything that can be shaken WILL be shaken for you are receiving an UNSHAKBABLE KINGDOM!
Whether we like it or not, believe it or not, it will all surly come to pass just as prophesied. Some will prepare & be watching & be diligently about their Father’s Business. Most, I fear, will scoff & mock & be caught unawares. I tell you this because there is gold w/in you & God is wanting to refine it for His Glorious purposes in these last days.
The “True” Church is to finish out the last 3 1/2 yrs that Y’shua has been “cut off” from when he was cruxified. You, Scott will be among that Remnant doing those greater works, being prepared as a Bride if you choose now. Or, like so many, you may choose to stagnate in Laodicia & be spewed out of his mouth. I pray for you & for me, that not be our fate. I thank God for His Great Grace w/out measure! Or I couldn’t do it either.
I see so much gold in you & giftings you’re not even walking in yet. They have been placed there by Yahweh, Himself & He is eager to refine them for His glory in these last days & for your preparation. You will be a light & a comfort to many & they will be saved (harvested) because of the love of God that emanates from w/in you.
If you’ve not yet put on your engagement ring by entering into Pentecost & being “sealed” than do it as soon as possible. God’s feasts are progressive by design. For it is quite impossible to to bypass any one of Yahweh’s feasts to enter into the next. Pentecost must precede Tabernacles just as Passover had to precede Pentecost!

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/11/2011 21:25 pm

Candace, (post #4)

You said:

“Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. the Jews were still observing the feast of Tabernacles & this is how it was determined when the feast of trumpets would begin.”

Point of minor clarification please; did you mean to say feast of “trumpets” in the above quote?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/11/2011 16:48 pm

Scott, I would like to start with “not knowing the day or the hour” of Y’shua’s return. We can assume that to mean His actual touching his feet on the Mt of Olives at his 2nd coming or/& it alluding to the Rapture of the Bride/Manchild Co.
We do have a huge “time key” event for Y’shua’s coming w/ all his saints at his triumphant appearance as King of kings & Lord of lords on the Mt of Olvies. i.e. To put an end to the bloodiest, most devastating battle ever fought on the face the earth…The Battle of Armageddon. Many “signs” will appear prior to that but is that what Paul’s telling the Church of Thessalonica? I don’t think so.
Let’s look at the “catching up/harpazo” as being the day no man knows, not even the Son:
Passover was celebrated every spring in the month of Nissan & the lambs were sacrificed every yr on the 14th day. Y’shua was sacrificed on that exact day the Passover lambs were being slaughtered thus fulfilling the “type” perfectly.
Pentecost followed exactly 50 days later & the Holy Ghost fell on them w/ fire & power & speaking in new tongues. The type was Moses coming down from Mt Sinai w/ the “law” 50 days after the Israelites were freed from Pharaoh, following the 1st Passover. The antitype is now fulfilled w/ the pouring out of God’s Spirit & the new church will be led by “the Spirit of the Law”. We’ll discuss the wheat offering at another time.
Now if Passover was fulfilled exactly as God had ordained it in His feast of Passover & Pentecost was fulflled exactly as ordained, than it only makes sense that the one Feast not yet fulfilled will be in exact accordance to the “type”….i.e. The Feast of Tabernacles! It consisting of 3 feasts ushers in the preperation of the Bride Company before the Rapture as well as pointing to the literal fulfillment of God’s Greatest Feast in the millenium w/ Israel restored & w/ the “Church” of Y’shua all coming together for the most awesome celebration ever experienced! For the sake of time I’ll have to include the scriptures to back this up later.
About the timing…..We know that Tabernacles is a fall feast. Therfore we have the “season” for the rapture. The “signs” that will begin to be manifest & the prophecies that still need to be fulflled will culminate in the proper season just as w/ Passover & Pentecost.
God’s calandar is not according to our solar calendar but rather it is lunar. When trying to calculate the coming events for these last days, many get quite far off due to using a Gregorian count rather than a lunar count misssing the very year we are now in which is 5771. Why I am laying this foundation is this…..Passover & Pentecost are known exactly because they fall on a full moon but Tabernacles is different. Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. the Jews were still observing the feast of Tabernacles & this is how it was determined when the feast of trumpets would begin. There would be watchmen on the walls searching the night sky for the first sliver of the new moon. “No one knew the day or the hour” when that 1st sliver would appear but when it did the shofars would begin to blow loud & strong heralding it was time to come to Jerusalem to begin the feasts of taberncles! 1st they blew throughout Jerusalem & as each surrounding town & community heard the shofars, they begin to blow until the farthest townships, etc. could hear….it’s time to head to Jerusalem for the fall feasts. They didn’t know the day or the hour but they certainly knew the season. We too, as the Bride company waiting & watcing, will know the exact season! We’ll need to be “unbowing” oursleves & looking up for the day, the hour, “moment” in a twinkling of an eye!
There is another incredibly beautiful truth about the Last Supper that goes hand in hand w/ this revelation. I will share it next time.
God Bless & I’ll return when I can.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/11/2011 07:48 am

Hi Scott….I’m not a Hal Lindsey fan when it comes to the Rapture. Get back to you later:) Sorry about not qualifying “empowering”. I am certainly referring to God’s Word doing the empowering!

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/10/2011 23:42 pm

Candace,

You wrote:

“I’ll take the first steps to unfold some impowering revelations.
If anyone’s open to hear, I’ll share some of my thoughts for why there’s coming a great falling away. I’ll share why there are TWO revealings of that man of sin & who’s doing the “restraining”.”

Fire away! The points you’ve raised are very serious concerns. I’m anxious to hear what you have to say. Although, I hope it’s not the tired cookie-cutter stuff of the Hal Lindsey hashworks.

Please take any one of the points you’ve raised and elaborate a little to get the discussion started. By way of full disclosure; I am pre-trib and pre-millenial. Some may roll their eyes and say, “How is that any different from the likes of Hal Lindsey?” My answer; “Stick around and find out!”

[By the way, may I make a suggestion? You make a reference to something you call “empowering revelations”. I think it is a poor choice of words for use when studying the Bible and especially eschatology. I think I know what you mean by using the phrase but it carries the suggestion that you have received “special revelation” in these matters and that’s a big turn-off. There are lot’s of self appointed end time “prophets” who talk the same way. I don’t think you want to be associated with that camp. I know I don’t. Empowering “truth” or “understanding” strike me as a better word choice].

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/10/2011 23:12 pm

Line upon line & timing will be of utmost importance if we are to be ready for the things that are fast approaching. How will the “remnant church” be prepared if she doesn’t recognize the “season” of Y’shua’s coming? We may not be aware of the day or the hour (Matt 24:26) but we can certainly be ready as we see the season approach.(Matt 24:32)
Time keys are hidden in the Feasts of the Lord & if we’re willing to set aside our Western mindset & look at the feasts according to Hebraic custom, then the hidden things begin to imerge.
I have compiled a list of Rapture scriptures vs 2nd Coming scriptures that will help clear up the confusion. It’s been my experience that many are blurring the 2. As long as there’s not a distinct separation, the timing of both remains unclear. “Come now, let us reason together”.(Is 1:18)
II Thes chapter 2 shows us clearly that we are not to be deceived as to the timing of “our catching away” as some are. (I’d be so bold as to say most are) Our meeting w/ the Lord in the air can not happen until “the great apostacy happens first AND that man of sin be revealed”!
If we’re willing to get honest & study the scriptures from a variety of translations including some Greek & Hebrew, we’re going to see irrefutable truth imerge. Hidden right in plain sight are TWO revealings of the antichrist! Who’s ready to go treasure hunting?
I’m almost fearful to begin unpacking this for the resistance that will surley arise. For me it almost feels like casting the most precious “Pearls” before swine…not my words, but Yahweh’s Himself. With fear & a bit of trepidation, I’ll take the first steps to unfold some impowering revelations.
If anyone’s open to hear, I’ll share some of my thoughts for why there’s coming a great falling away. I’ll share why there are TWO revealings of that man of sin & who’s doing the “restraining”. I will lay out why “that day” is unknown even to the Son but the Season is crystal clear to those who are preparing as a Bride. (Rev 19:7)
The Church Age is just about over & “until the fulness of the Gentiles come in”.(Ro 11:25) A sifting has begun as the chaff Is being separated from the wheat, the goats from the sheep. 2 church conditions are clearly visible….Laodicia & Philadelphia. We decide which one we’ll be a part of. Guess who’s left banging on the door declaring…”Lord, Lord we did all these things in Your name….”( Matt 7:22,23)
My heartfelt prayer is we “all come into the “unity” of the Faith”! Eph 4

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/10/2011 22:00 pm