2 Timothy 4: 3 Commentary

Scott Dale: With your new explanation now almost in sync with mine… I wholeheartedly agree…although there are blurry spots not yet clear…but i go with you in your explanation unless someone can have a more clearer explanation. I thank you for at least yielding some ground to make peace with a dissenting Brother in Christ; this together with the good word you use in explaining have touch something in my heart…what you plant is what you harvest…i salute you!

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/24/2011 08:19 am

Tiuche,

You have made your point well; however, our discussion has now entered the nuances of the term “salvation” or “saved”.

I personally do not like the term “once saved always saved” because it has an inappropriate sense of finality about it. In fact, I NEVER use the term except in discussions such as these where it can (hopefully) be put in proper context.

We both know that God is the final judge and only he knows each individual’s heart; so trying to discern the mind of God in these consummate issues is probably a bit futile. In other words, at what point is saving faith lost and the full wrath of God’s judgment invoked? Hebrews 4:12-13 comes to mind.

No one apart from God himself can know these things. I say; “Once saved always saved, but be careful because one day you might even choose to “throw away” your salvation”. This does not seem at all foreign to me. After all, is it not possible to throw your very life away? This is where I would disagree with Roland. Yes, once you are born you cannot be UNborn; and yet we all know how it is possible to throw away your very life. Who would ever imagine that a brand new baby, so full of life, may one day destroy that life in suicide? How does he arrive at such a dreadful place? I’m sure each story is different and yet there must be a common thread that degrades the gift of life so severely that death seems preferable.

So also with spiritual life. Who would ever imagine that a new believer, so full of New Life, could one day consider such Life as so unfulfilling or meaningless that they should purposely discard it in the trash bin of worthless pursuits preferring present pleasures over the purposes of God and thereby commit spiritual suicide? How do these things happen? It’s no mystery; they happen incrementally. One compromise followed by another and another until the voice of God is nowhere to be found and the sinning soul resorts to his former and familiar ways. When Paul says; “and such were some of you”, he says it by way of warning because if leaven is not checked by remembering that we “were washed” it will leaven the whole lump and then what hope is there?

The immoral believer in 1 Cor. 5 was extraordinarily despicable. Paul calls him “wicked” yet implores the church to turn him over to Satan for physical death; evidently before he should commit the “unpardonable sin” so his soul can be saved on the day of Christ. Where would such a man be without brothers interceding for him? Some say he was NOT a brother and yet Paul says he is not to judge those OUTSIDE the church, but he is surely to judge those INSIDE the church to which he says; “And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.”

Sin is a corrosive thing. Marring the beauty of God’s handiwork and turning the soul away from its maker and redeemer. This is true for the simplest saint as well as the wisest disciple. And yet, not all judgment is leveled against our un-repented sin in this lifetime. I believe the Judgment Seat of Christ will be the great clearing house for such offenses. Though rewards may be given there, surely, rewards may also be rescinded there (“see to it that no one takes your crown”).

I wholeheartedly believe that no one can simply “lose” their salvation; but I believe that MANY can and will lose rewards. Rewards can be “lost” through neglect; but not so with salvation. It must be purposely discarded to be made of no effect. The sad part is that few saints cherish the rewards of God by not understanding the glory it brings to his name. It seems to me that verses dealing strictly with rewards are oftentimes lumped in with verses dealing with salvation and a works-righteousness mentality can creep in (legalism).

It also seems to me that the legal and moral consequences of a sinning saint are not well addressed in most churches today. Yes, where sin abounds, grace much more abounds unto JUSTIFICATION; but beyond that how can we escape responsibility for sinning? Is this not what God’s discipline (sanctification) is all about? Justification is based on the finished work of Christ. Rewards are based on the finished work of the faithful saint.

“[Moses] regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was LOOKING AHEAD TO HIS REWARD.” Heb. 11:26

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/24/2011 03:49 am

Scott Dale: Thanks for your explanation!

You say “Many Christians who are presently saved will never see that kingdom, let alone rule and reign in it because they will not be considered worthy of the First resurrection.”

I agree with you in this. But what i donot agree is for a sweeping term/ doctrine ‘ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED”.

The Christians who have not overcome will not be worthy of the first resurrection will be in danger of the SECOND DEATH. Note i donot say that they will not be saved! What i say is they are in danger of the SEcodn Death!

” He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the SECOND DEATH”( see Revelation 21:7-8 & Revelation 2:11).

Therefore because these Christian have been saved, it does not guarantee they will always be saved! Once saved is not always saved! But note that I agree with you that a believer’s salvation is secured in His faith in Christ but again consider the Word of our Savior, jESUS SAID, ” IF YOU.. continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; …”jOHN 8:31.Only they who truly believe in Jesus will be overcomers…these will be the christians on which we can say ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED…but to the rest…the term could not apply!

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With regards to the unpardonable sin here are the scriptures ”

Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they [the Pharisees] were saying, ‘He has an evil spirit’.”
Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
Luke 12:8-10: “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
Hebrews 6:4-8: “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case — the things that have to do with salvation.”
Hebrews 10:26-29: “For we, sinning wilfully after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery zeal about to consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has considered as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace?”

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/23/2011 05:20 am

Tiuche,

You asked; Could you explain what you mean by:
“We cannot lose our salvation, but we can (and many will) lose their place in the coming Kingdom.”

The coming Kingdom is a millennial kingdom lasting 1,000 years. Many Christians who are presently saved will never see that kingdom, let alone rule and reign in it because they will not be considered worthy of the First resurrection. Their resurrection will come at the Great White Throne judgment at the END of the millennial reign of Christ. Until then, they will remain “asleep” in their grave. Likewise, they will NOT be part of the Bride of Christ. I hope I don’t have to convince you just how tragic this loss would be for any Christian.

Regarding an immortal body, I have no doubt they will possess some kind of spiritual body but perhaps they will not have “life in themselves” as Christ and his Bride will have and they will be continually dependent upon the leaves of the Tree of Life.

As far as “losing” our salvation, I don’t know how any mature believer can justify such a notion. It may be possible to intentionally throw away your salvation but I fail to see how any born again believer can somehow “lose” it.

You bring up the “unpardonable sin” but I just don’t know what that is? Do YOU know what it is? If you do, then please explain how something so obscure fits into a neat little doctrinal package about the believer’s justification.

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/23/2011 04:41 am

Scot Dale:
Could you explain what you mean by:
“We cannot lose our salvation, but we can (and many will) lose their place in the coming Kingdom.”

Supposing a Christian loses his place in the Kingdom of God, what happens to him? Do you mean he would become immortal too? Would he be part of the 1st resurrection for the Christians? If he commits the unpardonable sin would he still be forgiven & be saved?

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/17/2011 10:30 am

Tiuche,

I’m so glad you referenced 1 Corinthians 10. This chapter speaks to my point more than any other.

Pastor Grosboll says; “You may claim to be saved, or think you’re saved, or know the time and date that you’re saved. You may be planning on standing with the saved. But Paul says to “take heed lest you fall.”

I don’t know who this Pastor is but his analysis of Paul’s intent could not be further from the truth. In no way whatsoever is Paul suggesting that we must “take heed lest we fall AWAY FROM SALVATION”. Paul is most assuredly NOT suggesting that any of the saints can lose their salvation in this way.

Please take special note of the fact that Paul sets up the entirety of chapter 10 by presenting the failure of the first generation Hebrews out of Egypt as a TYPE for the application of his instruction to the Corinthian believers. Verses 1 through 4 make it crystal clear that they were all believers. Indeed, they were all saved because they were all under the blood of the lamb. This is why they were rescued from Egypt. Had they not “applied the blood”, they would not have survived.

But the text goes on in verse 5 to say; “Nevertheless, God was not pleased with (most) of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.” Why were they scattered over the desert? Not because they failed to believe in the blood of the lamb that saved them out of Egypt; rather, they failed to believe in the sufficiency of God to deliver them INTO the Promised Land. In other words, they never entered into their inheritance and rest. THIS is what Paul is talking about when he warns the Corinthians to “take heed lest you fail to POSSESS your inheritance.”

These Hebrew believer’s were saved but they never possessed the Kingdom of their inheritance. Paul is saying that that’s exactly what can happen to Christians. In verse 14 he even tells the church to “flee from idolatry.” Why? Not because they will lose their salvation; but because like the first generation Hebrews; idolatry weakened their faith so much that the mere report of giants sent them into such fear that they were literally unable to ENTER the Land. The giants became bigger to them than the Lord who had saved them and they developed an unbelieving heart and displeased the Lord.

Paul’s admonition to “take heed” is for the purpose of being assured a place in the coming Kingdom of Christ; not for the purpose of being assured of salvation. Being saved in its most basic sense has to do with a deliverance FROM destruction. The finished work of Christ guarantees this. But possessing a salvation that delivers us INTO a glorious kingdom depends on something other than the finished work of Calvary. Such a magnificent destiny demands personal holiness and an overcoming, victorious faith. Joshua and Caleb possessed these in abundance (”we are well able to OVERCOME [the giants]”).

Many people think that God does not make distinctions among the born-again. This is not so. The preachers and teachers of our present age cannot endure sound doctrine such as this and refuse to even acknowledge it. They think that Jesus will say to ALL Christians; “Well done, good and faithful servant, ENTER into the joy of the Lord!” But in that day, many Christians will NOT hear those words; nor will they ENTER into the joy of the Lord.

Paul’s very clear message to the Corinthian church is that if God made distinctions among the first generation of Hebrews out of Egypt, he will make distinctions among his Church as well. He repeats this powerfully in the Book of Romans and many other places. This is also what the book of Hebrews talks about so forcefully. Indeed, the parables of Jesus speak to it time and time again.

We cannot lose our salvation, but we can (and many will) lose their place in the coming Kingdom. “I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.”

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/17/2011 05:13 am

Scot Dale:Both of us are sinners in the deepest meaning of the term, yet both of us are also assured of Salvation through belief in Christ! But St Paul tell us to take heed lest we fall!

Take Heed Lest Ye Fall
Pastor Marshall Grosboll

In I Corinthians 10:12, it says, “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.” You know, the devil would like people to become self-secure, to get to feeling satisfied. The whole Laodicean message is the message to try to shake people out of that feeling. God doesn’t have to exaggerate to do it; it’s a true message. There were some churches, as you know, about which God had nothing negative to say. But the last church has a special tendency in temptation—of getting to feel that, because they know “truth” or because they have more light than people of previous ages or whatever, that somehow they are “good.” But Paul has a warning here, and it is, “Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”

I’ve always been interested in what Paul thought about himself. He said, “I am the chief of sinners.” (I Timothy 1:15.) He said, after preaching to others, “I have to keep myself under subjection lest I should be a castaway after helping other people to be saved.” (I Corinthians 9:27.) In another place, he said, “Forgetting those things which are behind, I press forward to those things which are ahead.” (Philippians 3:13.) It is so easy for us to get to the place where we are feeling pretty good about ourselves, but Paul says, “Take heed when you think you are standing. You may think you have the truth; you may think you’re in the right church; take heed, lest you fall.” You may claim to be saved, or think you’re saved, or know the time and date that you’re saved. You may be planning on standing with the saved. But Paul says to “take heed lest you fall.”

Source: http://www.stepstolife.org/library/sermon_notes/Take_Heed_Fall.html.

2 Timothy 4:3 warns us about being carried away by smooth talking preachers/teachers and their doctrines designed to please you and not as the Lord want you to be told!

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/16/2011 16:41 pm

Tiuche,

What does “having sins” have to do with the assurance of salvation?

The either/or option you present is meaningless. Go ahead, tell me what my sins are and I will tell you that you have only scratched the surface of my sinfulness. Again I ask, what does that have to do with the assurance of salvation?

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/16/2011 01:18 am

PREACHERS TO TICKLE YOU & PLEASE YOU

What kind of preachers do you want? Would you want someone who always tells you what your sins are? Or would you want someone who will say “since you have received Jesus, you are assured of your salvation, you will never lose your salvation?

Simon the sorcerer became a believer and he did not like what Peter the Apostle told him;
Herod was a moabite Jew, and he did not like what John the Baptist warned him about his sin;
Ahab was the king of God chosen people and he hated one prophet who always told him bad things…

You want a preacher to tickle your ears? You want a smooth talking salesman to guide your soul on how to follow Christ?

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/15/2011 18:41 pm