Ecclesiastes 9: 5 Commentary

Tractorman: Me….as i consider you and the rest of those who profess faith in Jesus and the Bible as my brothers and sisters in Christ….i have the opinion that many of them are my brothers and sisters in Christ whether SDA or JW…albiet in different level of spiritual maturity…some are babes…some are even more matured than me…that is how i see things! I donot say that all of there doctrines are free from errors…but remember that you too or me could also hold on to some erroneous doctrines w/o us being aware of it! For who is perfect among us-NONE! On the other hand we the imperfect ones should pursue the knowledge of God-like WISE VIRGINS , making sure of all things and our salvation with fear and trembling…hoping to attain unto that Life!

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/5/2012 12:50 pm

@ Tiuche - Again, we could go round and round rebutting each other, but fair enough, you are allowed to offer your opinion on these verses… I just encourage you to continue to see if ‘these things be so’…

Regarding Seventh-Day Adventists, they are ABERRANT at best and CULTIC at worst…

Regarding Jehovah Witnesses - they have ANOTHER JESUS, for their Jesus is none other than Michael the Archangel…

By Tractorman (wrote 3574 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/4/2012 21:24 pm

Tiuche (Post #2): Nowhere does the text of this verse say or suggest that “to die means the spirit ceases to function without the body.”

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/4/2012 15:18 pm

Tractorman :

You said: Soul sleep is a peculiar doctrine taught by Seventh-Day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses primarily, so it SHOULD be immediately suspect…

My answer: Let us not be prejudice about these two churches of God; Are we 100% sure they are not of God? And if a particular doctrine seems to be geared toward their beliefs…that does not make it wrong- for all our doctrines are like buildings with which we adorn the individual building we build from Christ our foundation…and if those doctrines be tested and goes up in smoke-then that doctrine was made of hay, stubble…and not of gold or silver!Soul sleep is not a heresy-it is just that a doctrine-a way of looking at things-whether that doctrine is hay or gold-time will tell!

And soul sleep- yes there are dead souls and sleeping souls according to the scriptures…

You said: So, let me get this straight… when I die, my body rots and my soul/spirit go into the presence of God, where it SLEEPS ???
So, I remain UNCONSCIOUS (I guess over in a corner of heaven somewhere) along with ALL the saved from the creation of the world while heaven is filled with the praises of angels to God…
Then, when Jesus descends from heaven one day, my rotting body will be glorified, and my sleeping soul/spirit will zip from heaven to where Jesus is and rejoin my now glorified body - is that about right?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:16-17)

My answer: This is my opinion after having digested the whole scriptures from Genesis to Revelation.

You add: Although it has been debated, most think that Samuel after his death did appear to Saul and castigate him, even telling him his future (v19) (1 Sam 28:10-20.

My answer; It was not Samuel the prophet that appeared to King Saul..remember the propehet Samuel nor God have cut-off all communication with him. If through the witch of Endor-Samuel was forced to talk to Saul, then what would that make the witch? It was the demonic spirit that disguise himself as Samuel.

You said: How also do you explain the Transfiguration where BOTH Moses (who died and was buried - Deut 34:5-6) and Elijah were present and talking to Jesus if their soul/spirits were asleep? What, did Jesus wake them up for the occasion then send them back to heaven and put them to sleep again? And please don’t tell me they had glorified bodies because Jesus was the FIRST to get a glorified body which happened AFTER the crucifixion.

My answer: Will be posted in Matthew 17:1-3.

You said: Jesus sure indicated souls have consciousness after they die - witness the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) Why would Jesus tell such a story if it were in reality not true - even his parables were based in reality - they weren’t fairy-tales…

Sure sounds like SOULS have consciousness to me. These are “Tribulation Saints” killed under the rule of the beast - no mention their slain bodies were glorified and re-united yet:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. (Rev 6:9-11)

My answer: These instances are personification or figure of speech like the blood of Abel crying from the ground!

You said: And WHY would Paul willingly rather be with the Lord if we are simply UNCONSCIOUS?? He also does NOT look forward to being ASLEEP with the Lord, but to be PRESENT with Him - awake, conscious, enjoying God’s love and presence…

Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8)

And yet AGAIN, Why would Paul say it would be FAR BETTER to be with Jesus if it only meant to be ASLEEP in His presence?

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart (die), and to be with Christ; which is far better (Phil 1:23)

My answer: Of course when we die we sleep as Jesus always said-our friend Lazarus is asleep…and when we sleep we are of course alive to God…so when Paul tell us it would be far better to be with Jesus…he means it is in the very day we wake up in the presence of the Lord. He means that when Jesus wake us up His beloved from our soul sleep!

You said: We have to remember the Ecclesiastes is being written with an EMPHASIS of LIFE UNDER THE SUN, not really with eternity so much in view.
See Post#1 - Solomon is simply stating that once we die, our earthly hopes and dreams are gone… and eventually we will be forgotten…

My answer: Your answer is sort like the answer of some Roman Catholics who taught that the Hebrew Prophet of the Old Testament have a wrong view of the afterlife …which the Lord Jesus cleared up during His New Testament Ministry. I donot agree with this kind of thinking…for to me the prophet be they of the old or the new testament knew aht they were talking about and that the scriptures do not contradict nor go against one another-they synchronize and add to one another meanings!Ecclesiastes 9:5 is true be it under the sun or in eternity!

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/4/2012 05:54 am

We know we will physically die, but, the dead remember nothing nor can they earn more reward for continued faithfulness. Physical death blots out physical memory. So, the dead remember nothing of their former physical life.

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/4/2012 03:11 am

@ Tiuche - Soul sleep is a peculiar doctrine taught by Seventh-Day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses primarily, so it SHOULD be immediately suspect…

So, let me get this straight… when I die, my body rots and my soul/spirit go into the presence of God, where it SLEEPS ???

So, I remain UNCONSCIOUS (I guess over in a corner of heaven somewhere) along with ALL the saved from the creation of the world while heaven is filled with the praises of angels to God…

Then, when Jesus descends from heaven one day, my rotting body will be glorified, and my sleeping soul/spirit will zip from heaven to where Jesus is and rejoin my now glorified body - is that about right?

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:16-17)

Although it has been debated, most think that Samuel after his death did appear to Saul and castigate him, even telling him his future (v19) (1 Sam 28:10-20)

How also do you explain the Transfiguration where BOTH Moses (who died and was buried - Deut 34:5-6) and Elijah were present and talking to Jesus if their soul/spirits were asleep? What, did Jesus wake them up for the occasion then send them back to heaven and put them to sleep again? And please don’t tell me they had glorified bodies because Jesus was the FIRST to get a glorified body which happened AFTER the crucifixion.

Jesus sure indicated souls have consciousness after they die - witness the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) Why would Jesus tell such a story if it were in reality not true - even his parables were based in reality - they weren’t fairy-tales…

Sure sounds like SOULS have consciousness to me. These are “Tribulation Saints” killed under the rule of the beast - no mention their slain bodies were glorified and re-united yet:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. (Rev 6:9-11)

And WHY would Paul willingly rather be with the Lord if we are simply UNCONSCIOUS?? He also does NOT look forward to being ASLEEP with the Lord, but to be PRESENT with Him - awake, conscious, enjoying God’s love and presence…

Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8)

And yet AGAIN, Why would Paul say it would be FAR BETTER to be with Jesus if it only meant to be ASLEEP in His presence?

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart (die), and to be with Christ; which is far better (Phil 1:23)

We have to remember the Ecclesiastes is being written with an EMPHASIS of LIFE UNDER THE SUN, not really with eternity so much in view…

See Post#1 - Solomon is simply stating that once we die, our earthly hopes and dreams are gone… and eventually we will be forgotten…

By Tractorman (wrote 3574 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/3/2012 19:32 pm

TO DIE MEANS THE SPIRIT CEASES TO FUNCTION WITHOUT THE BODY

The body then rots and goes back to the ground from which it came while the spirit of such goes back to God. Into God’s loving hand goes back the spirits of those that are dead. When Christ died He committed His Spirit unto our heavenly Father.He died and remained in “hell” for 3 days…it is therefore a mistake that when Christ died He was alive somewhere preaching or still upholding things like He was still alive…

The Spirit without the body sleeps…like a software program and memory without a hardware!It is not dead in God’s sight but just asleep…however It is a mistake to think that when the spirits of the dead can still think, hate & love without a body…that is why we will be given by our Father a new body which is incorruptible in the future!

Ecclesiastes 9 verses:
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing…
6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/3/2012 16:47 pm

1. From the perspective of “life under the sun”
a. The living KNOW
b. They are going to die
c. And still have a chance
d. To turn their lives around
2. And in the spiritual sense
a. Only the living can repent
b. And trust in Jesus
c. Living out their last days for Him
3. But those who are DEAD
a. Have NO chance to improve their lot
b. No more chance to enjoy life
c. And no more chance to trust in Jesus
4. And to top it all off
a. Even the memory of them
b. Is lost to the rest of us
c. Over time

By Tractorman (wrote 3574 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/24/2011 22:56 pm