Exodus 31: 15 Commentary

Roland (post 29), first of all, if I am a natural man who cannot understand spiritual matters or interpret God’s Word correctly, so are you a natural man who cannot understand spiritual matters or interpret God’s Word correctly. What do you have on me? Are you a chosen prophet of God? Your patronizing only exposes a lack of humility which is one of the bare essentials of a good Christian.

Now to your points:

1) “Jesus is God.” That’s a belief which I respect but don’t share. Belief means it’s not proven and, therefore, you can’t draw any conclusions from it.

2) “The Hebrew words for kill and murder differ and have different meanings.” So do the English words “kill” and “murder”. So does the word “Hebrew” and the name “Roland”. Every word has different meanings. What a translator does is pick out the word which best describes the author’s intent. (And, believe you me, a decree to stone people means EXACTLY that, as it still does today in some places that continue to practice something akin to the law of Moses.) So what you appear to be saying here is that you do not have faith in any of the Bible translations we have today, right?

3). “Jesus corrected people’s misunderstanding of the Sabbath. Like you some did not understand even after explanation.” Are you sure you read the Torah? Read it again. Read and tell me if it’s not true that the Jews faced extreme restrictions with regard to the Sabbath and many other laws. Then read Jesus’ teachings, because I am getting the feeling you don’t understand the NT either, and tell me if it isn’t true that Jesus tried many times to soften these restrictions and CHANGE the laws. I BELIEVE in what Jesus did to change the laws of Moses.

4). “Every believer is an Ambassador for the Kingdom of God directed to share the Gospel. God says whoever believes shall be saved. The question is not who I am but who Jesus is who spoke those words.” Is “Jesus” the operative word here? I believe in what Jesus tried to do. Unfortunately Jesus died too soon and there was nobody to pick up his message until decades had passed, by which time his words had become blurred and perhaps even twisted. That’s what I believe. And perhaps, just perhaps, I am an ambassador of that - not in the sense that I have any desire to proselytize but only in the sense that I have a need and a right to express myself. However I am honest with myself and, therefore, whenever any of my beliefs are proven wrong, I am obliged to bow to the truth.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2011 12:21 pm

Charles (Post #29): I do not blame you for lacking understanding of God’s Word for the natural man cannot understand spiritual matters or interpret God’s Word correctly.

A few observations:
1) Jesus is God.
2) The Hebrew words for kill and murder differ and have different meanings.
3). Jesus corrected people’s misunderstanding of the Sabbath. Like you some did not understand even after explanation.
4). Every believer is an Ambassador for the Kingdom of God directed to share the Gospel. God says whoever believes shall be saved. The question is not who I am but who Jesus is who spoke those words.

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2011 02:23 am

Roland Godless, there was God and then there was Jesus. There was God who told us ‘Thou shalt not kill’ and also told us to kill anybody who disobeyed the harsh laws of Moses. So it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t - absolutely no way of telling who would be saved.

Then there was Jesus. Jesus did all he could to change all that. He basically told us to ignore everything Moses said about the sabbath when he said the sabbath is for us, not the other way around (and several other examples). So now the instructions change totally.

Considering all these contradictions in the Bible you have absolutely no authority to declare who will be saved and who wouldn’t.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2011 02:04 am

Charles Fiott (Post #26): No research was needed. The Lord prescribed stoning (Lev. 24:13, 16; Num. 15:32, 35; Deut. 13:6, 10). God does not condemn those who obey Him. And if anyone does not obey Him He does not judge them in this life. Jesus came not to judge the world, but to save the world. (John 12:47). Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved (Acts 16:31).

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2011 01:47 am

Ronald McDonald (Post 25) What a well researched and well documented answer!

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2011 00:33 am

Charles Fiott (Post #24): “Do you suppose Jesus will save those who stone others to death?” ANSWER: Yes

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/8/2011 23:49 pm

Do you suppose Jesus will save those who stone others to death?

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/8/2011 15:44 pm

Could a beast care what is in store for tomorrow?

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/8/2011 14:55 pm

Tiuche, so is that like tomorrow? Are you finally going to tell me when?

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/8/2011 14:21 pm

Charles: I will become an adult when Jesus comes!

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/8/2011 14:06 pm

Re 19. Tiuche, when are you going to become a little more adult in your comments?

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/8/2011 12:13 pm

LOL…the devil had wag his tail…he had revealed himself…he hates Jesus Fanatics & Bible Fanatics…all his time is spent on discouraging people against their beliefs on the Bible… what a pity that he tries to convince everyone to his hopeless view of life…a life w/o a Heavenly Father watching…a life of despair & despondency…a life that has no hope…a life w/o a future but the GRAVE! WITH HIMSELF ONLY AS HIS OWN GOD!

He will deny both God the Father and God the Son. … so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.2 Thessalonians 2:4.

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/8/2011 02:54 am

He that has an ear, let him hear the message. If he be a Bible fanatic let him hear the laws of Moses and so let him stone people to death and show no pity. Or if he be a Christian let him hear the message of Jesus and love his enemies and be worthy. Or if he be Tiuche let him try to do both and talk from both sides of his mouth.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/7/2011 22:32 pm

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THOSE WHO REFUSE TO OBEY THE LAW OF GOD MAYBE PHYSICALLY ALIVE BUT SPIRITUALLY THEY ARE DEAD; That is the penalty for their transgressions and if they insist on trampling on the Laws of God, then even their prayers will be an abomination to God and they will be in danger of the ultimate penalty for serious sins-the SECOND DEATH-a permanent death from which there will be no more resurrection.

Rev. 2:11 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev. 20:14 And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If despite all the warnings from the Holy Scriptures a person insist on his idiotic ways then it is evident that such a person is not of God…he is of the devil!

1 John 3:10
English Standard Version (ESV)
10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Followers of God love His Laws, love their fellow believers and love what is right!

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/7/2011 16:12 pm

Ha ha, Tiuche, you’re copping out again. I am not the one having problems with the law. I live in a Christian country and support our Chrisitan laws. I do NOT support Mosaic law. You, on the other hand, support the stoning of people, something you know is bad. You have a problem with yourself.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/7/2011 09:41 am

Charles: …the Lawless One does not want the Laws of God…could not accept the Standard of God, he wants his own laws and you are his dupe.

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/7/2011 08:01 am

Nice quotations, Tiuche. None of them have anything to do with the subject.

Jesus and Paul both repudiated the Mosaic law. It wasn’t easy for either of them to do so, but so they did (Matthew 5, Romans 6, and others).

And that means that the Torah is not relavant to Christians.

Bible fanatics cannot accept such simple truths.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/7/2011 00:41 am

WHEN INTERPRETING THE LAWS OF GOD ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT GIVES HARSH PUNISHMENT or the SACRIFICE of LIFE or LIMBS, REMEMBER SOME OF THESE QUOTES:

Know what this means, I will have mercy not sacrifice!-Jesus Christ.

Do unto others like you have them do unto you! BoB Dylan

The most important trip you may take in life is meeting people halfway. ~Henry Boye

When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people. ~Abraham Joshua Heschel

If we should deal out justice only, in this world, who would escape? No, it is better to be generous, and in the end more profitable, for it gains gratitude for us, and love. ~Mark Twain

Life is mostly froth and bubble,
Two things stand like stone,
Kindness in another’s trouble,
Courage in your own.
~Adam Lindsay Gordon

How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will have been all of these. ~George Washington Carver

Lastly We Christians are ministers of the spirit and not of the letter, for the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Our Lord & Savior came to give life more abundantly…and to save from death those in bondage with the ways thereof!

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/7/2011 00:08 am

In post 10 Tiuche says that the law of stoning people today is relevant TODAY.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/5/2011 13:26 pm

re post 9: “Mathew 5:17 does not support your belief.”
Well, it’s the other way round, really. But, Roland, this is exactly what I am trying to make you see if you just open your eyes a little: the Bible constantly conbtradicts itself.
Here’s what Matthew 5 does:
1. I am here to fulfil the law.
2. You know the law. DON’t follow it!
And this, for you is upholding the law, right? You uphold the law by telling people not to obey it! I don’t know about you, but I am not stupid enough to accept such blatant double-talk.

This is like saying that jumping off a cliff and hanging yourself are the same, right? Or that stoning people to death is the law but the law doesn’t matter! Or that creating the animals after Adam is the same as creating them before creating Adam….

One has to be totally blind….

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/5/2011 13:23 pm

THE WORD OF GOD IS RELEVANT TODAY, THE LAWS OF GOD IS RELEVANT TODAY
It is only those who twist & misinterpret those Words & Laws that think those Words & Laws are obsolete.

It takes wisdom & understanding to properly use & do the Word of God & His Laws for the benefit of oneself and society. Those who misuse them do it to their own & their fellowmen disadvantage & destruction.

We must obey the Laws of God, however with a proper understanding. Trying to compel obedience to the letter of the Law and trying to exact the penalty to the letter of the Law will not only put one who does that against the majority of his fellowmen; but also endanger himself to the penalty for transgression. Jesus had taught His follower the proper principle to use when interpreting the Laws of God as standard to judge oneself & to others:

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would like them to do to you

Luke 6:38 For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/5/2011 10:04 am

Charles (Post #8): “I just can’t agree that Jesus upheld the law.” Mathew 5:17 does not support your belief.

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/5/2011 08:27 am

Hello Scott. Hope you’re well.

Re post 7, first of all, I just can’t agree that Jesus upheld the law. He tried not to upset the traditionalists too fast, but he was slowly getting his message across. He specifically debunked the eye-for-an-eye verse and taught us to do the exact opposite of the law. That’s not upholding the law, is it? And his defense of the adulteress was not simply “his prerogative”. It was a witty way to strike down another law without offending too many traditionalists.

Many other verses have been used to prove that there was a conscious attempt by NT authors to push the old laws aside. A good example is Rom. 7:6 “But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”

And yet the Torah is still part of the Bible. Still the “Word of God”! Why? Why are we given opposing instructions by God? People here get mad at me for pointing out the inconsistencies of the Bible, but these inconsistencies are the reason why I came to the conclusion that the Bible cannot be the Word of God. God does not speak from bioth sides of his mouth.

In your third paragraph you seem to indicate that people who know the law should follow it while the others are excused from it. So the stoning still applies to some but not others? I’m sure you didn’t mean it quite that way. Please explain what you meant. Your line “God desires mercy; not judgment” is simply not borne out in the OT. God specifically told the Israelis to show no mercy: “Have no pity on him: [Take] a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, and a foot for a foot.” - Deut. 19:21.

And grace did not precede law, either. The Torah was dominated by harsh laws. Grace arrived much later.

With regard to the last paragraph, the argument I’d like to have is not why God was so harsh with the Israelis, but rather who was God speaking to in the Torah. All these laws we’re talking about plus all that detail about what they can eat, etc. - was all that only for the Israelis or for everybody? And if it was only for them, why should I even be bothered? But this is another subject.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/5/2011 04:00 am

Charles,

Jesus overlooked nothing in regard to the (moral) Law. He upheld it more than any teacher ever had. Matthew 5:17-20 makes this abundantly clear. He himself was THE very Word of God; not carved in stone or written with letters but manifest in person; in the flesh of humanity. Not like a prophet who only spoke what God told him to speak; but as one with authority in his own right. In other words, he spoke as God; therefore, he was the author of the Law. Or to put it another way, he had authority over the Law.

But Jesus also held up grace more than any teacher ever did. In himself, he was the manifest grace of God; the embodiment of the fullness of God’s grace (Titus 2:11). Therefore, as the Lawgiver, he has full authority to judge and condemn; but as the manifest grace of God he also has the authority to forgive sins. He does not nullify the Law; he trumps the Law through his own grace. This is why he forgave the adulterous woman instead of stoning her. It is his perogative to do so. Indeed, this is the very reason he came to earth: to die for all the Lawbreakers who ever lived so they wouldn’t have to die under the judgment of the Law. This very grace is still available today but a time is coming when it will be withdrawn. It is at that time that Jesus will return as Judge. No longer extending the free grace we know of today; but rather, extending the rod of justice against any Lawbreaker who scorned his grace of forgiveness.

No, people should not be put to death for working on Saturday (Sunday is not the sabbath day). To think they should be killed completely mis-characterizes the reason for the giving of the Law in the first place. Though understandable, you ask the wrong question. The question ought to be; “Is the moral Law, given by God to the Jews, completely binding to all humanity?” The answer is simply No. It was never intended to be. The reasons for this are many and they are very easy to understand. God is not irrational; for instance, he will not hold someone accountable to the written Law who has never heard it; nor will he hold someone fully accountable who was unknowingly taught to be a lawbreaker. God desires mercy; not judgment.

However, God will most definitely hold everyone to account who knows to do right but does not do it. The conscience is God’s dashboard warning light hardwired into the DNA of every human being. I well imagine that there will be plenty of judgment exacted against most everyone simply for the violation of our own consciences even without the Law.

It must be remembered that grace preceeded law; not the other way around, so grace could ALWAYS be extended because it existed from the beginning. But even if it had not, it is equally as true in the human economy that the one who makes the rules is the one who can suspend the rules.

If you want to know why God was so “harsh” with the Israelites when they sinned; that’s a completely different discussion, and a worthy one to have. I suggest you study it specifically for yourself or post the question to get discussion going.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/5/2011 03:10 am

Re post 5: “-the letter of the Law gives death as the penalty for desecrating this day, however, God had now given us grace & truth in Jesus Christ which extend mercy for those walking in the Spirit…”

Hmm… I don’t think Jesus ever told us it’s okay to work on the Sabbath. Jesus refuted some OT laws and amended others, but it seems he overlooked this one.

So, Tiuche, should we obey Ex. 31:15?

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/4/2011 14:15 pm

THE SABBATH-the 7th day- Friday sundown till Saturday sundown- a day to remember God. Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy is one of the Ten Commandment, when we keep this commandment it shows that we love God.

The literal punishment -the letter of the Law gives death as the penalty for desecrating this day, however, God had now given us grace & truth in Jesus Christ which extend mercy for those walking in the Spirit…for Christians are ministers of the spirit and not of the letter!

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: … Clearly, what was written brings death, but the Spirit brings life

By TIUCHE (wrote 3262 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/4/2011 13:46 pm

Re Post 3. Scott, should people who work on Sunday be put to death?

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/4/2011 13:31 pm

The nature of this commandment is not unique to this situation in the OT. When God struck down Ananias and Saphira in the book of Acts, it was very much the same. The similarity is that in both circumstances God was zealous for his glory but Ananias and Saphira treated it as a light thing. So too, the nation of Israel was raised up to testify to the glory of God among the heathen nations of the world. Laboring on the Sabbath not only violates the law making such a one a “lawbreaker” who is unfit for his master’s service; but laboring on the Sabbath discredits the covenant of God. How long should God put up with such a one who tramples on His eternal glory??

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/4/2011 05:14 am

I would like a christians pov on this verse. In my bible which is a life aplication study bible new living traslation it says.

12 THE LORD then gave these instructions to Moses: 13 “Tell the people of Israel: ‘Be careful to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you from generation to generation. It is given so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy. 14 You must keep the Sabbath day, for it is a holy day for you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. 15 You have six days each week for your ordinary work, but the seventh day must be a Sabbath day of complete rest, a holy day dedicated to the Lord. Anyone who works on the Sabbath must be PUT TO DEATH. 16 The people of Israel must keep the Sabbath day by observing it from generation to generation. This is a covenant obligation for all time. 17 It is a permanent sign of my covenant with the people of Israel. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he stopped working and was refreshed.’”
18 When the Lord finished speaking with Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two stone tablets inscribed with the terms of the covenant,[c] written by the FINGER OF GOD.

I was instructed to read the whole thing in context and after reading this i am lead to belive that it openly tells belivers to put to death and cut them off from the community for anyone who works on this day. these to me seem like very clear instuctions by god. Now obviously to me this is obserd so i ask you how do you defend this and say it means anything else. did the word DEATH mean something else back then. I have the perspective of non belivers and now I would like to hear what a christian has to say about this.

By b (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/29/2011 14:28 pm

This line is repeated in Exodus 35:2, so it must have been an important commandment in those days. I don’t think anybody today would suggest that we should kill the doctors, nurses, firemen, bus drivers and policemen for working on Sundays. Is the Bible relevant today?

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/13/2009 12:12 pm