Genesis 1: 1 Commentary

Regarding faith & fact and church & state: It might help to check out the site American Center for Law & Justice (ACLJ) at http://www.aclj.org/Default.aspx
Quote from the site: “The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) focuses on constitutional law and is based in Washington, D.C. The ACLJ is specifically dedicated to the ideal that religious freedom and freedom of speech are inalienable, God-given rights. The Center’s purpose is to educate, promulgate, conciliate, and where necessary, litigate, to ensure that those rights are protected under the law. The organization has participated in numerous cases before the Supreme Court, Federal Court of Appeals, Federal District Courts, and various state courts regarding freedom of religion and freedom of speech.”

By Terik Q (wrote 65 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/20/2009 15:56 pm

Re post 118. Jason, I know you weren’t saying I was gay and I have no reason to be touchy about the subject. My point was that we should not be mean to people simply because they are different from us or because of what they believe or do not believe. We need more tolerance and respect here and in all aspects of our lives.

The other point I’d like to make is that there is no such thing as a god-given right. It’s just a meaningless phrase. So-called god-given or natural rights are simply whatever one wants to make out of them. Some gun owners say it’s a god-given right to own a gun. Abortion advocates and school prayer advocates alike may invoke the same phrase to advance their causes, but it doesn’t mean anything. The only real rights we have are those that are legislated and enforced. Everything else is rhetoric.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/20/2009 13:43 pm

Oh, I wasn’t saying you were queer. Sorry if you’re a little touchy about the subject.

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/20/2009 00:08 am

Well, Jason, since I’m not gay I cannot take your comments personally. However I can see you’re a man with no compassion and with cruelty in your heart.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/18/2009 22:00 pm

RE #114
For once I agree with Chuck’s interpretation of Scripture. The best kind of homosexual is a flaming homosexual.

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/18/2009 20:45 pm

Our forefathers did not confer any rights on us. They were simply recognizing the rights which God had already given man. Governments are instituted, at least ours was, to maintain and preserve those God-given rights.

Plenty of legislating is being done from the bench (although, that’s not the way its supposed to be).

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/18/2009 20:43 pm

Regarding Post #113

The statement “Rights come from the Creator and they are (supposed to be) protected by the judicial system” couldn’t be more wrong. It’s Congress that makes laws - not the judicial system, and certainly not God. And though we in the United have a Judeo-Christian tradition, Congress gives rights that the Bible doesn’t. For example under US laws gays are starting to enjoy certain rights. The Bible does not give gays any rights. On the contrary the Bible says that gays should be punished by death.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/18/2009 18:41 pm

Regarding Post #111 “faith has nothing to do with the judicial system”:
Laws in the US are based on Judeo-Christian principles. In God we trust. From the Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Rights come from the Creator and they are (supposed to be) protected by the judicial system. Even though I find Bill Maher and the late George Carlin humorous, they have spoken against religion in general and Christianity in particular. Carlin has said that people should keep their religion to themselves and Maher has gone so far as to say it should be outlawed (I hope he was joking). They have their freedom of speech, but they seem to forget that there is also the freedom of religion. And those two freedoms can be combined: I have the freedom to speak about my religion. I recently heard a replay of Carlin’s routine where he got rid of the Ten Commandments and replaced them with two (maybe three). However, Jesus already gave us the two greatest commands.
Finally I find it interesting when Biblical authors, such a Paul, write about faith. Paul was an eyewitness to his personal vision and also had reliable testimony from Apostles and other friends. Why did he promote faith when he had facts? Perhaps there is a connection - we need facts AND faith.

By Terik Q (wrote 65 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/18/2009 15:53 pm

My brother is currently a policeman. My father was a law enforcement officer as well as my grandpa and 2 or 3 uncles. So I don’t have much of a problem viewing the Lord as a policeman. I don’t resent your comment but wonder if resentment of authority is the root of your belief problem/issue/agnosticism/whatever.

As for keeping the thread polite, if I’m the worst you have to put up with, you should be thankful.

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/17/2009 21:08 pm

Re. Post 110:

I am not an atheist, but I were I would resent being compared to a thief. Please keep this thread polite.

Also I don’t know if there is a god, but if there was I sure hope I wouldn’t think of him as a policeman!

And, finally, faith has nothing to do with the judicial system. Thank goodness the inquisitions and the witch trials are over. Only in places like the Swat Valley do they still bring god into the courtroom.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/17/2009 20:20 pm

Is Faith “proof” in the courtroom sense? No. But Faith is substantial “evidence” according to Heb 11:1. And evidence is used to bring a conviction.

Jurors are faced with the task of determining a person’s guilt beyond “reasonable” doubt.

Some are dismissed from jury duty because they are deemed unfit, unreasonable, or plainly biased. The same is true for many who weigh in on the faith issue.

2Peter 3:5 speaks of those with obvious bias against creation.

“Willingly…ignorant…” means they’re stupid on purpose, not that they lack the ability to understand. The fact is, the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief can’t find a policeman.

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/17/2009 19:45 pm

Faith is opinion. Even if there is a god, one can never know what kind of god he or she or it is. And why only one god? And why the god of the Bible? Who’s to say that Christians got it right and everybody else got it wrong? Are you appointing yourself the judge of mankind? Are Moslems doomed because they don’t follow the Bible? Are Hindus doomed because they believe in several gods? Are most Chinese doomed because they believe in no god? Faith is a set of shallow, passed-down traditions that vary from place to place. Science, on the other hand, is universal. Faith is, by definition, unproved. Science is, by definition, the truth.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/17/2009 19:02 pm

Evolution: Nothing + Explosion = Everything

Creation: God + His Word = Everything

BOTH REQUIRE FAITH

And I’m sure there’ll be a red shift when you slip off into Hell too.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/17/2009 17:55 pm

Science will never be in a position to state about what could be the first or ultimate cause. it has its own limitations.It has no absolute truth. For me Jesus is the way, life and truth! Facts may change, but Faith never gives in!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/17/2009 16:49 pm

Re. Post 105. Your questions are about theory, not fact. Yes, sure you can theorize that there must have been a god. You can theorize that this god had no beginning. You can theorize that this god was a someone who amazingly looked like you and me, or that it was a someTHING - like some primordial matter which then exploded (big bang theory). I have an open mind on all of these. None have been proven wrong or right and therefore I can’t dismiss any of them.

All I can say is that the few things that we DO know to be true (e.g. the world revolves around the sun) have their foundation in science, NOT in the Bible. All I can say for sure is that the truth about the universe resides in the scientific process, not in Genesis.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/17/2009 14:35 pm

Reference post 104;
Does any theory of science endorses why sun, moon and stars were made on the fourth day as stated in Genesis? Does anything at least make you believe in the existence of God? Say that there is no explaination for the “first cause’? Is it not mind boggling how has all the universe come into existence? The creation may be changing, but not under the process of creation. So there was no way to to know the first cause for the people who believes in science and science only.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/17/2009 13:52 pm

Well, again, Jayant, that’s where we agree and disgree at the same time. The big bang theory is just that, a theory. So are many other hypotheses. Science doesn’t know how the universe got started, or whether it ever did. But we do know this FOR SURE: the “creation” of the universe is NOT complete. We are witnessing the creation of new stars and new planets (IN THAT ORDER) even as we speak. I know such discoveries are nothing but a nuisance to you, but to me they totally bust the seven-day-creation myth.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/16/2009 19:31 pm

Reference # 102: Well, there are many questions to which we have no answers. One of the prominent scientific theories that tries to explain the creation of the Universe is the Bibg bang theory. we have wait for a successful experiment to prove it. In case, it is is believed that our Universe has a bigining. Something came out from nothing for reason unknown.This can only be attributable to something responsible out of our natural realm. We can say it supernatural. Do we know what that supernatural was? what was the first or ultimate cause? This leads me to believe it could be eternal God only. If god is the first cause and the creator, he can create first earth and then sun or vice versa. he can even create moon first, then star and then earth and then sun! I mean god is almight and he can manage any order of the events. the Genesis account even doesn’t say when the water was created! There was darkness! Could it be what is called black hole? We simply do not have all answers. But I beileve in God and that He is the creator and I am quite comfortable with that. Can man get to know Hom by searching?Let me be clear:I cannot win by arguments. and if I starts to argue as you do, even you would also not succeed. I rely on Faith on my God!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/16/2009 14:46 pm

Re post 101. Jayant, I am not trying to sway you away from your faith. Nor do I have any right to do so. Yes, on one hand I do feel that you could be more open to other opinions and not dismiss them outright. But on the other hand I have to note that you seem to respect the people who disagree with you. Let me say that I also have a lot of respect for you and for your faith even though I see things differently. Vive la difference!

Back to the subject of this thread, I still feel that Genesis 1:1 (In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth) is a false statement because it clearly means that our planet was created before its own star.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/16/2009 12:14 pm

Reference to post# 96:

Charles, in fact, I don’t want support for the Bible from other traditions, for to me the Bible is the tradition form the living God, that He is the real source of it. This is my faith. You say that there is no evidence of great flood outside of Asia. It is to answer that the Hawiian tradition has come in, just to suggest that that even extra biblical sources suggest that there was a world wide great flood. But you alwasys want archeological evidences for it. I said that the flood was so great that it swept away everthing leaving no evidence of it everywhere. Absence of some archeological evidences cannot prove that a certain even of the Bible never happened. i also therfore pointed out that the archeologists have not foound any traces of exodus route, as they have seem to have concentrated their excavations in wrong sites! Thus, absence of archeologcal evidence cannot dispprove the the Bible. Maybe such evidences can be found later on? for us to get confimation? Shall I then stop believe till such evidences are available? There are certain things in spiritual level that are not verifiable by the science. I said almost all the culture of all time there are lot of stories and experiences about ghosts, but it is beyond science to verify it. Even the life is still mystery, but one would not say that there is no life. so there is much more in the spiritual world beyond the scope of science. And since there are evil spirits, there are good spirits and the highest is God.God is beyond the verification of science, only the faith gets hold of Him! God loves us all! Sorry no archeological evidence! But the evidence is that the Lord Jesus, the Son of God gave His life for the remission of sins of many like me and you included! Yes, the cross on the calvary is the proof of God’s love for humankind!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/15/2009 23:38 pm

100th Post!
Answers In Genesis has a website that offers some answers to questions that have been posted regarding Flood & Creation. The article below is The Mystery of Ancient Man. If that doesn’t help, try searcing the site. Or you can also use the contact option to ask a specific question.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i2/ancient.asp

By Terik Q (wrote 65 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/15/2009 19:43 pm

A bulldog can whip a skunk, but its just not worth it. “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;” (Titus 3:10)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/15/2009 18:19 pm

When people resort to insults they have lost the argument.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/15/2009 17:53 pm

RE: 96

“God is light” you mental midget. (1John 1:5)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/15/2009 17:50 pm

Re post 94 by Jason: Since there was no electricity yet, light could only come from the sun or some other star. But, according to the Bible, all stars were created after the trees and the grass. So this is clearly false.

I am glad you recognize that the light from stars take more than 6,000 years to reach us. Millions of years, actually. So it follows that the stars were created millions of years ago. How do you reconcile this with Genesis? Do you think that the fourth “day” of creation actually lasted millions of years?

Re Post 95 by Jayant. Jayant, you said “no amount of archeologiacl evdences can move me from my faith in the Bible as the sure word of God.” This means that your arguments are not bona fide. You have stated that you will dismiss archaeological, scientific, and all evidence no matter how reliable and factual they might be.

Instead you seem to take solace from legends that are similar to the Bible. So does that make the Bible just another source of legends? Does it mean that there were several other “Noahs” around the world besides the one of the Bible? That several other families in Hawaii and elsewhere were also spared by God? What do these legends mean to you and why are they more believable than science?

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/15/2009 17:47 pm

Reference post # 94 by Charles:

There are many dismilarities between the Biblical record and the Hawiian legends. Some of the names of their gods are given in their tribal language. (although the name Nu-u resemble the name of Noah. It is therefore unlikely that missionaries who got the tradtions form the local tribes could have fabricated the stories. What they have done at the most is the comparision of the the biblical record and the traditions of local tribes. Many things that have come down to us is by way of oral traditions.Since the great flood was so sweeping that it might not have left anything for the excavations by the archeologists to provide some evidence for the scientists. One can not rule all these possibilities.

I have made mention of the possibilites of pre-Adamite race. This is also believed by Islam, I think. Archeology has so far not found any remains of human race that are earlier than say 5,000 + years. Well, they do show that that the age of the rocks, tress etc are older than that. You have cited the example of the Stonehenge Structure, where the age of the stoene used may be more, but not necessarily of the structure made out of such stones. One can not rule out possibilities of all such things. In that case, to say that the record of Genesis is ridiculous os not correct. What I try to say that the archeological evidences are subject to other possibilities and need not be taken as final.

I belong to a Church of local evangelical assemblies whose founder was late Brother Bakht Singh, a convert from Sikhism. He was once asked, “Do you believe that the fish swallowed Jonah?” He answered,” I do believe that;” and added, “And had the Bible even said that Jonah swollowed the fish, I would have believed that too!” I too am one such fool for my God, and no amount of archeologiacl evdences can move me from my faith in the Bible as the sure word of God.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/15/2009 08:47 am

Trees, plants, etc. were created prior to the sun but not prior to light. In fact, light was created before the luminaries. As you well know, after only 6,000 years, the light from distant stars would still not have reached us, otherwise.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/14/2009 23:28 pm

True, the methods used to determine the dates of fossils are far from precise. But they usually give a good indication. More often than not newer methods give fossils and rocks an even older date. So when scientists estimate a date at 40,000 to 60,000 years old one can rest assured that it is either close to that age or older.

The Hawiian legends are interesting, but apparently they were written in the 19th century after missionaries had gone there and preached the Bible. We find the same thing in Australia and other places. It is easy to see how traditional stories and new teachings can get mixed. For example I also read about a legend that says it was a fire that killed everyone in Hawaii before it was repopulated. So it seems that the new Christians of Hawaii conveniently merged the two stories into one.

I do not hasten to state that the Bible is false. In my opinion many accouts in the Bible are true or likely to be true, while many others - especially in Genesis and Exodus - are highly unlikely or doubtful. I have only used the word “false” in a few instances where it is obvious, like for example having the trees and the grass created prior to the creation of the sun.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/14/2009 16:06 pm

Further comments on post# 91 by charles:

There is what is called a gap theory. The earth was void and without form-in a state of utter chaos. God, who creates by the power of His word, would not create something that is full of chaos. It is therefore thought that there was a pre-Adamite race which was destroyed and then man was created. But this is after all a theory. Again, the cabon method used to determine the dates of fossils/rocks etc is not agreed upon by all the scientists equally.

We have to confess our ignorance about many things. Jason has now pointed out the Hawiian legends of Nu-u! This goes to suggest that there are traditions of a great flood that has affected even outside Asia. There were reports of fossils of fishes found on the Mt. Himalaya. Could it be becuase of the great flood when the highest moutanins were submerged?

As for the exodus route, the excavations seems to have been carried out all in a disputed places. I have also visited Mount Sinai and the St.Catherine Monastary in Sinai Peninsula. This site was also determined by St. Helena, mother of Constinople and the Church has traditionally accepted the site as of Mt. Sinai. This seems to be have been done without taking into account the Biblical record. Now it is suggested that the site of Mt. Sinai is not in Sinai peninsula, but in Saudi Arabia and evidences to that effect are also given, and it is consistant with the biblical record. How can the archeology find anything if they try to to find in the wrong place! I am therefor not inclined to accept finality of anything on the basis of archeology. This does not however mean that I don’t altogether believe in the benefits of the archeology. so even with the vast knowledge available at the click of our mouse, we have to confess our ingnorance of many things and should not hasten to say that the Bible is false.

I have just pointed out the refernece from the Bible that the divisions of the earth took place in the days of Peleg, after the food. The incidence was so remarkable that the son was named Peleg9 division and a reference to the incidence is made in the ancient record of the geneology.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/14/2009 13:00 pm

For evidence outside Asia of great flood, google Hawaiian legend of Nu-u.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/13/2009 22:12 pm