Terik Q,I thank you for your nice comments in post#58.
You have mentioned about oral tradition.
“Adam told his kids and they told their kids and so on.”
Here are some interesting facts from Genesis 5 in which we found genealogies.
1)When Adam was 130 years old,Seth was born. Gen.5:3 -Adam’s age 130yrs.
2)When Seth was 105 years old,Enos was born. Gen.5:6 -” ” ” ” ” 235 yrs
3)When Enos was 90 years old,Cainan was born. Gen.5:9 -” ” ” ” ” 325yrs.
4)When Cainan was 75 years old,Mahalaleel was born.Gen.5:12 -” ” ” ” 400yrs.
5)When Mahalaleel was 65 years old,Jared was born.Gen.5:15 -” ” ” ” 465yrs.
6)When Jared was 162 years old,Enoch was born.Gen.Gen.5:18 -” ” ” ” 627yrs.
7)When Enoch was 65 years old,Methuselah was born.Gen.5:21 -” ” ” ” 692yrs.
8)When Methuselah was 187 years old,Lamech was born.Gen.5:25-” ” ” ” 879yrs.
9)When Lamech was 182 years old,Noah was born Gen.5:28
Adam was 879 years old,when the 9th from Adam-i.e. Lamech was born.Adam died at the age of 930 years.
Hence when Lamech was 51 years old(930-879=51),Adam died.
Adam died only 131 years before Noah was born.

Commentary by Alex
Posted on: 4/30/2009 14:36 pm

Please refer commentary in post #56.
Charles,you’ve mentioned about “Codex Sinaiticus” in your commentary in post#51. Before proceeding further I think it will be useful to furnish some latest details about it.
CODEX SINAITICUS
“Codex Sinaiticus ” is a manuscript written in the middle of the 4th century. “Codex” means “book”. “Codex Sinaiticus” means “the Sinai Book”.It is named after the Monastery of Catherine,Mt.Sinai where it was preserved for many centuries.
Leaves & fragments of this manuscript were taken by Constantine Tischendorf, a German Biblical Scholar,in 1844,in 1853 & in 1859 so that they might be published.The principal surviving portion of the Codex comprising 347 leaves was purchased from the Soviet Govt. in 1933 and is now held by the British Library.They were previously known as “Codex Sinaiticus Petropolitanus” as they were kept in St.Petersburg between 1865 & 1933.A further 43 leaves are held at the University Library in Leipzig.
They were published in 1846 as “Codex Augustanus” in honour of Fredrick Augustus II,King of Saxony who was the patron of Constantine Tischendrof.
Parts of 6 leaves are held at the national Library of Russia in St.Petersburg.12 leaves of 40 fragments remain in St.Catherine Monastery recovered by the monks from the northern of Monastery in June 1975.
The hand written text is Greek.The N.T. appears in the vernacular language (koine)and the O.T. in the version known as the Septuagint.
The pages of Codex Sinaiticus are of prepared of animal skin called parchment.Each leaf measures 380 mm high & 345 mm wide.Just over 400 leaves survived.On these parchment leaves is written half of the O.T.& Apocrypha
(the Septuagint),the whole Book of the N.T and two early Christian Texts not found in the Bible (An epistle by an unknown writer claiming to be the Apostle Barnabas & The Shepherd written by the Roman writer Hermas).Most of the first part of the manuscript (containing most of the so-called historical books from Genesis to 1 Chronicles ) is now missing & presumed to be lost.
The Septuagint includes books which many Christian documents place in the Apocrypha.Those present in the surviving part of the Septuagint in Codex Sinaiticus are 2 Esdras,Tobit,Judith,1&4 Maccabees,Wisdom & Sirach.

Commentary by Alex
Posted on: 4/30/2009 05:26 am

Charles, you’re half right. True, mistakes could have occurred, but that does not mean they did on the level some people suggest. True, the Bible copying & translation was a human endevour, but the original writtings were a joint human and divine authorship.
Regarding the original, there are (at least) the issues of Revelation and Inspiration. Assuming Moses as author of Genesis & Exodus, how did he know about the events (Revelation)? Divine Revelation - Moses had a dream/vision while on Mt. Sinai. Oral Tradition - Adam told his kids who told their kids and so on. Testimony - Other witnesses such as Mose’s sister & mother could have told him about his birth. Eyewitness - Moses himself experienced the actual Exodus. (I also think that everyone has a generic version of the Resurrection story written on the heart — thus explaning similar myths in different cultures as well as the popularity of Star Wars, Harry Potter, and the like.)
When Moses did the actual writing of things he knew, Inspiration took over. Christians disagee about how the Inspiration happened. Was Moses a puppet? I believe that he was filled with the Holy Spirit during the task, but he was not a robot. I also believe that Inspiration ensured the revelation was correct if were Oral or another non-Divine form. Other authors, such Billy Graham, are also inspired but not as Biblical authors were. There is a difference b/w inspiration vs Divine Inspiration.
Next is the issue of copying. Scholars probably could tell you how many differences there are when copys are compared against each other. The issues to consider: Text may have been changed, added, or removed. If so, which one is correct? Also, were changes small (typo) or great (resulting in another theology)? I work in publication, so I know a little of what scribe might have had to deal with. A copy is made and checked, re-checked, checked by someone else, checked by a different person, and re-checked again.
It might help to use a secular example: Different historians wrote about Pres. George Washington. Suppose one didn’t realize the cherry-tree story was just a myth and wrote it into his book. Would that discount the rest of his history? Certainly, one would be wise to verify his account against other authors. By checking all history books, people can know reality vs myth. We can know for certain that Washington was an actual man who became President. With the Bible, we know the copying was very exact. It was treated with the utmost care, respect, and accuracy. By comparing copies, we know the main story and we know where there are a few differences. Any good study Bible has footnotes alerting the reader about questionable verses. We can know the Gospel: Christ and Him crucified.

Commentary by Terik Q
Posted on: 4/29/2009 18:51 pm

Dear Teriq Q

Your comments in Post 52 are very valid. It is reasonable to assume, as you did, that scribes took great pains to make sure that they were transcribing or copying everything correctly. But your assumptions of what the scribes would have or could have done clearly also imply that these scribes acted in a human capacity. And this means that mistakes could have occurred, as, indeed, they did. And this again enforces my conclusion that the Bible is a human endevour, not a divine one.

Charles

Commentary by Charles Fiott
Posted on: 4/29/2009 12:55 pm

Ref:Commentary in post #55.
It is learnt that 5300 Greek manuscripts(oldest manuscripts written on papyrus & the later manuscripts written on parchment),10000 Latin Vulgate manuscripts & 9300 manuscripts in Ethiopic,Coptic,Slavic,Syriac & Armenian are available containing fragments of or entire N.T.The total number of manuscripts approaches the figure of 25000.(The N.T. was written about 50 A.D.to 95 A.D.)
The following are some of the earliest manuscripts.
1)Magadelene manuscript containing fragment from Matthew .(Chapter 26).It was discovered recently.It is said that it was written before 68 A.D.This is considered to be the oldest manuscript discovered.
2)John Rylands fragment(p52)containing John 18:31-33,37 dates about 125 A.D.It has been found in Egypt.It is kept in the John Rylands Library,
Manchester.
3)Chester Beaty Papyri(p46)containing a portion of the N.T.dates about 200 A.D.It is kept in Chester Beaty Museum,Dublin& Ann Arbor,Michigan University of Michigan Library.
4)Bodmer Papyri(p66) contains(104 leaves)a portion of the Gospel of John.It dates about 200 A.D.It is kept in cologno,Geneva.
5)Codex Sinaiticus which is dated to the middle of the 4th century contains half of the O.T & the entire N.T.written on parchment leaves.It is called “aleph”(the Hebrew first letter).The portions of Mark 16:9-20 & John 7:53-8:11 are missing.
6)Codex Vaticanus is known as “B”.it is kept in the Vatican Library.It dates to the middle of 4th century or even before that time.It contains almost the whole Greek Bible.(Most part of the Genesis is missing.In the N.T.the portions of Heb.9;14 to the end,the Pastoral Epistles,Philemon and the Book of revelation have been lost.).It does not contain Mark 16:9-20.
7)Codex Alexandrinus is a 5th century manuscript of the Greek Bible containing majority of the Septuagint and the N.T.It is designated as “A”.It is believed that it is written in Alexandria.It is kept in the British museum.(The leaves containing Matthew 1:1-25:5;John 6:50-8:52;2 cor.4:13-12:6 are lost.)
(To be continued)

Commentary by Alex
Posted on: 4/29/2009 05:36 am

Refer commentary by Charles in post #51.
1)The Old Testament was written in Hebrew & Aramaic languages.The portions of Ezra 4:8-6:18;7:12-26;Jer 10:11;Dan.2:4-7:28 were written in Aramaic.The remaining portions were written in the Hebrew language.The letters of the Hebrew & Aramaic were similar.
2)The Septuagint:”Septuaginta” is the Latin word for seventy.The oldest complete translation of the O.T. has been called the Septuagint.It was commonly designated as LXX.LXX is the Roman numeral for 70.It was believed that 70 to 72 translators were commissioned to translate the O.T.in Greek.
According to tradition,the Septuagint traces back to the time of Ptolemy Philadelphus of Egypt.(285-246 B.C)
The quotations from the O.T. in the N.t.are usually citations from the LXX either verbatim or with minor verbal changes.In other cases,the N.T.
writers translated themselves from the original Hebrew.The early Church has used the LXX.
The Dead Sea Scrolls have also provided earliest manuscripts of parts of the O.T. in Greek.There is close similarity with the LXX.
3)All the Books of the N.T. were written in Greek.
4)As Christian Church spread to other parts where Greek was not spoken,
efforts were taken to translate into Latin,Syriac & Egyptian languages.
5)The Original Texts of the N.T.are not available.Almost all copies made during the first three centuries have disappeared.
Reasons:
i)Papyrus was commonly used for letters.(2 John 12)It soon wore out.
ii)In the time of Diocletian(A.D.303),the persecutors of Christians sought for copies of the Scriptures to be destroyed.
6)Thousands of Greek manuscripts of N.T.Texts are still in existence.
Further,thousands of manuscripts of translations into Latin,Syriac,Egyptian
& other languages are also available.
7)The N.T. quotations in the writings of the early church fathers are also available.
(To be continued)

Commentary by Alex
Posted on: 4/27/2009 16:35 pm

1)Why would God allow His Word to disappear?This was one of the questions asked by Charles.(Post #47).Let us find the reasons for the disappearance of the original texts of the Bible and how God preserved His Word even then.
2)Materials used for ancient writings:
i)Stone:The Ten commandments were written on stone.Ex.24:12;31:18;32:15-19.
ii)Clay Tablets:(Jer.17:13;Ezek.4:1)Even though clay tablets had great durability and were the cheapest writing materials ,there were limitations in use due to transportation problems and less space for writing.
Thousands of clay tablets which contained details of events ,names & cities of the Bible had been found.One clay tablet dated to 539 B.C.had the records of the events connected with the Persian victory over Babylon.
iii)Papyrus:The English word paper comes from the Greek word “papyrus”.
Papyrus was the most commonly used material for ancient writing.Papyrus could be transported easily & was much easier to use than stone & clay.The papyrus reed was available only in Egypt & Syria.Large quantity of papyrus was transported in ships through the port “Bablos” in Syria.The Greek word for books “biblos”is found in the name of this port.
John Rylands is the oldest N.T.manuscript dated to 125 A.D.It contains a portion of John 18.
iv)Leather:Leather was made from the skins of sheep,goat,antelope or cowhides.It had greater durability than papyrus but more expensive.it was susceptible to cracks & crumbles.
The Isaiah scroll of the dead Sea Scrolls is made of leather.
v)Parchment:The city of Pergamos in Asia Minor(Rev.2:12) was famous for the production of parchment.The word parchment is derived from the name of this city.
Parchment was also made of animal hides.They were soaked in lime water to make them white.
vi)vellum:The calf skin was called vellum.It was dryed purple.
vii)Metal:One copper Scroll containing details of a lot of temple treasures & their locations was among the find of the dead Sea Scrolls.
viii)Ostrica:The technical name is potsherd.(Job 2:8).This was unglazed pottery with the common people.
3)The following are the reasons for the disappearance of the Original Texts of the Bible.
i)Due to passing of time,the writing materials decayed naturally because of their characteristic of limited durability.
ii)Due to frequent handling & use of materials ,they became damaged and unreadable.
iii)The weather conditions or environmental conditions of the places where the manuscripts were kept caused the materials to be destroyed.
The reason for the existence of many papyrus documents is because of their survival due to dry environmental conditions in areas like Sinai desert and Dead Sea area.They were not exposed to moisture due to low humidity.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are mostly made of animal skins but also of papyrus and one of copper.
iv)It is learnt that Hebrews destroyed old manuscripts once copies had been made out of them.
4)Not only Bible manuscripts but also other writings belonging to the corresponding period had been destroyed and they did not exist.
5)Dead Sea Scrolls:The Dead Sea Scrolls consist of roughly 1000 documents including Texts from the Hebrew Bible discovered between 1947 & 1979 in 11 caves in and around the Wadi Qumran (near the ruins of the ancient settlement of the Khirbit Qumran,in the northwest shore of the Dead Sea)in the West Bank.The texts are of great religious & historical significance as they include practically the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 A.D.
6)Prior to the discovery of the dead Sea Scrolls,the oldest copies of the manuscripts available were the Masoretic Text.Masoretes were the Jewish scribes who were meticulous in copying.As Terik Q has commented in post # 52,utmost care had been taken in copying.They knew the Hebrew language very well and were able to read the Text which had no vowels or punctuations.It is learnt that they added vowels during the period from 500 A.D.to 1000 A.D.The Dead Sea scrolls are dated to 250 to 150 B.C.There is a time gap of nearly 1000 years between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Texts.When both Texts were compared ,there were no significant differences.This means that copying has been done precisely for 1000 years,
7)It gives us the confidence that the Texts were preserved through the earlier periods also with equal care.
That’s all for now.I’ll continue later.

Commentary by Alex
Posted on: 4/27/2009 00:36 am

1)Greetings to you,Charles.I’m happy to contact you once again in this way.
You’ve said that you are fascinated by the Bible.I’m happy about that.
Sir.Isaac Newton,William Shershel,Michael Faraday,Joseph Lister,
Lord Kelvin,Henry Pager,Louis Pasture& James Simpson were some of the scientists who had read the Bible with interest.
George Washington,Abraham Lincoln,Queen Victoria,Ronald Reagen & Gandhi were some of the political leaders who were fascinated by the Bible and the teachings of Christ.
John Bunyan,Chaucer,Robert Browning,Charles Dickens,Longfellow,Milton,
Macaulay,Ruskin,Shakespeare,Shelly,Spencer & Tennyson created literature based on the Bible.
2)Bible comes from the Greek word “biblia” which means “books”.The evangelicals believe that the Bible is the Word of God.2 Tim.3:16;2 Peter 1:21.The Bible is the only book which claims supernatural origin.Every word in the original text is inspired by God.It is true that the original text is not available now.However,it is believed that the copies of the original text have high degree of accuracy.Minor variations in the copies available in Hebrew & Greek languages did not alter or affect the doctrines of the Bible.
3)Here are some famous Quotes about the Bible.
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” - George Washington.
“I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man.”
- Abraham Lincoln.
“There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history.”-Sir.Isaac Newton
“I have fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God written by men who were inspired.I study the Bible daily.” -Sir.Isaac Newton.
4)Charles,you’ve remarked “FAITH may be a powerful gift.”Yes,it is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.1 Cor.12:8.
There is a passage which tells what faith is .”Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation,title deed)of things (we)hope for,being the proof of things(we) do not see and the conviction of their reality[faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to senses].Heb.1:1(Amp).
We find another statement about faith in Heb.11:6.”But without faith it is impossible to please him;for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
5)Charles,you are neither an atheist nor an evolutionist but an analyst.I’m glad to know that you had visited Mt.Sinai.You are searching for the Truth.
You’ve also made me to make a little study about the “Authenticity of the Bible” and relevant subjects.Thank you.It is interesting.
Charles,you’ve mentioned about the book “Misquoting Jesus”.I’ve gone through some critical reviews of that book.It is stated that no major doctrinal statements were changed after New Testament canon was accepted in the early second century.
Daniel Bowman has concluded in his article that the Bible,despite textual variations,has been preserved over the centuries with a remarkable trustworthy.
6)The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947,shows the evidence that the Bible has been copied accurately.The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated from 250 to 150 B.C.The discovery pushed back the available oldest Scripture almost 1000 years.When the content of the Dead Sea Scrolls was compared to later copies,no significant differences were found.
7)The Scripture has authority because God has all authority.As God is the author of all Scripture(2 Tim.3:16),Scripture is authoritative.God is the basis for the authority of the Bible.
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,…” 2 Tim.3:16.
That’s all for now.I’ll continue in a while.
Before winding up, let me thank Terik Q for his nice comments in post #52.

Commentary by Alex
Posted on: 4/25/2009 11:28 am

Reply to Charles Fiott:
I’m no expert either, but I would like to offer my response.
Awhile ago I read (sometimes skimmed) Ehrman’s book “Misquoting Jesus”. It seemed to me at one point he was comparing the transmitting of Scripture to the telephone game. When Paul was dictating to his secretary, the scribe could have heard wrong and therefore wrote down incorrect words. I take exception to that: If a scribe was unsure, he would have asked before writting something down. Also, he would have read it back to Paul to ensure he wrote it correctly.
When the OT was copied, a scribe counted the letters. He counted what he was copying, and then he counted his copy. If it didn’t match, it was not acceptable.
It is true that Hebrew does not use written vowels. So how can one be sure of what the actual word is? Context! We have a similar problem in English even with vowels. Consider the word “live”. Do I mean “I want to live to be 100″? Or do I mean “the music concert will be broadcast live”? Try to guess what I mean in this sentence without vowels: “Jm gv bn t hs dg.” Dg could be dag, deg, dig, dog, dug, or variations such as doug. In the above context, it is dog.
I realize that there are a few questionable verses. The woman caught in adultery but saved by Jesus may not have happened. And the end of Mark was probably an addition. Interesting that these examples are in the NT. I don’t have all the answers. But the context of words and the detailed copying of scripes are important considerations.

Commentary by Terik Q
Posted on: 4/24/2009 16:01 pm

Alex, I am by no means an expert, but I have been looking into the authenticity and the accuracy of the Bible with an open mind. There is much info which you can get online or in print. Let me suggest two sources which I believe are quite balanced. One is an article called “Is Today’s Bible the Real Bible?” by Daniel Bowman which you can read at http://www.irr.org/bible-reliable.html. The other is a book by Bart D. Ehrman called “Misquoting Jesus”. Both note discrepancies in the Bible, some or many of which were intentional. Bowman concludes that the changes are not huge enough to infringe on the authenticity of the Bible. Ehrman’s conclusion is basically the opposite. Both are interesting reads.

Here are some of the salient points that emerge from these and other sources:
1. The Old Testament was written between 1400 and 400BC, yet the oldest copies go back only to 250BC. That’s well over a thousand years between original and copy. In that long period of time any number of changes, whether voluntary or involuntary, could have been made.
2. The books of the Old Testament were written mostly in ancient Hebrew, a language which originally did not use written vowels. The Masoretes added vowels and punctuation, but this did not happen until the 7th through the 11th century AD (or so). Students of ancient Hebrew know that using one vowel in lieu of another can make a big difference in the meaning. So even if we had the real words of the Bible today, we still wouldn’t be sure what they meant.
3. The oldest manuscript of the New Testament is the Codex Sinaiticus. It dates from 300-350 AD, i.e. well over two hundred years after the passing of the authors in whose names they were written. It was discovered at the Monastery of St. Catherine in Sinai, Egypt, which was built on what is traditionally believed to be the site of Moses’ burning bush.
4. These New Testament manuscripts are in Greek. As you know the writers in whose name the Gospels and other books were written were NOT Greek. So a lot may have been lost in translation right from the start.
5. Both Bowman and Ehrman give specific examples of texts that were changed over the centuries. These changes include additions and omissions, honest mistakes as well as intentional alterations and interpretations. Considering the tools of the time, it was humanly impossible for the scribes not to make mistakes. But then, again, if they were truly inspired God would have guided their hands and their spirits.

You have every right to believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but it is a matter of faith, not truth. I am not downplaying faith. It may be a powerful gift, and I have no right or intention to try to take it away from you.

I will also add that, despite our differences, I am totally fascinated by the Bible. Not too long ago I personally climbed Mount Sinai and toured the monastery of St. Catherine there. I even took a picture of the lonely bush in the middle of the desert which some monks at the monastery still claim to be the one that burned for Moses.

But I am an analyst, and quite comfortable in that role. I feel that:
(a) if there is an all-powerful God who wanted the Word to be known through eternity, he/she/it would not have allowed it to wither away with time.
(b) Even as we have it today, the Bible is clearly a product of its time, with no prophetic value whatsoever. And
(c) many stories in the Bible, particularly in Genesis, are at odds with reality and some of them have been disproved by science.

Commentary by Charles Fiott
Posted on: 3/10/2009 01:15 am