Hebrews 1: 5 Commentary

For those who have faith in the Bible as taught the logical understanding is that Joseph kept the secret to himself. For skeptics like me another possibility is that Joseph was the true father of Jesus and therefore did not need to hide anything. After all Joseph and Mary had other children, so if Mary was a virgin with Jesus she apparently did not remain one for too long.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/29/2010 18:37 pm

Dear Jayant, My point was not to prove Mary as an adultress…..but rather to PROVE she was a virgin, fulfilling the scriptures….”therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive & bear a son, and shall call his “NAME” Immanuel.” (Is 7:14) I reiterate….Yahshua is not Immanuel, His name means “God w/us” for “the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in him/Yahshua.” ( Col 1:19) ” God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.” (II Cor 5:19)
I agree whole heartedly w/ you…..Joseph could have legally given Mary a bill of divorcement but I believe he loved her enough to protect her & once the angel came to him & told him she would give birth to the son of God, Joseph knew what he must do.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/29/2010 18:13 pm

Why people could have come to understand Jesus’ family as normal? It is because of Joseph. Joseph was a good man and did not want to harm Mary( He could have exposed her telling that she is not preganant by him, thereby making subject of stoning as per the Law of Moses)and was thinking to put her away secretly. But, with the direct message from the angel, he was convinced that Mary was not an adultress, but that she was preganant with the power of God. Joseph would therefore not have done any thing that would jeopardize Mary in any way and that therefore the people would have come to know the family as normal one and there was therefore no possibility of stoning.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/29/2010 10:19 am

No problem, Candace.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 22:38 pm

Charles, please, please forgive me for my gross misunderstanding. I’ll try to be more careful. In His Agape, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 22:14 pm

Candace, thank you for your lesson in Hebraic custom, however you seem to have misunderstood me. I did NOT say that Joseph failed to claim the child as own. On the contrary I said that Jesus’ family was considered a normal one with a normal father and siblings and therefore Mary was in no risk of stoning.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 18:14 pm

Candace, Jesus upheld the belief that his father was the true god and referred to himself as his son. I compared this to King Ahkenatem who declared that Aten was the only true god and that he (Akhenatem) was his son.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 18:01 pm

Charles, do you understand Hebraic custom at all? Even now a woman caught in adultry can be stoned. Joseph & Mary were in a legally binding contact (ketubah) which was unto death. Even though the actual marriage ceromony had not occured hence neither the consumation of that contract, she was legally Joseph’s wife. He “knew” he hadn’t impregnated her, therfore someone else must have. By the Law of God & the Jews themselves, Mary would have been stoned unless Joseph claimed the child as he own which the angel of the LORD did indeed tell him to do. Remember, Joseph had no sexual contact w/ his wife until after the Son of God had been born. (Matt 1:25) As Miriam’s pregnancy began to make itself known & Joseph hadn’t claimed the child as his own, she would have surly been stoned according to Judaic Law

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 17:50 pm

Charles, please show me where that is in scripture Jesus “declares” himself to be “the one & only true God”.
About Yahshua being “called” Immanuel. Few seem to understand what scripture is so clearly saying. Without a Hebraic foundation & our western mindsets the revelation is lost in the wind.
Matt 1:23 “behold a virgin shall bring forth a son and his “NAME” shall be called Immanuel.” Nowhere do the scriptures teach that Yahshua IS Yahweh, God Almighty but everywhere is proclaims that “the Son of God” will declare Him/God to fallen mankind. Yahshua bears his Father’s name, he has His Father’s name but only one facet of Yahweh’s great & mighty name. i.e. “Yahshua/Jesus” which translated means….”Yahweh/God Saves”.
When I was born I was given my father’s name but that certainly didn’t make me my father but I did bear his name. Now that I am married I was given my husband’s name & our children bear his name as well, but neither I or our children are my husband.

We’ve lost so much in our modern culture concerning the the passing down from generation to generation the family name, inheritance etc. It would seem our western culture doesn’t give much credence to this time honored tradition set up by Yahweh Himself. Therfore we have lost the understanding of God/Father “giving” His Son Yahshua His/God’s name & the power & authority that goes w/ it. If my father was a billionaire & ran a a successful corp. I as his daughter would possess the same power & authority over it if my father chose to give it to me. Yahshua was “given” all authority from God, his Father & he/Yahshua came into this “kingdom of darkness” to demonstrate the “Kingdom” of his Father that we might know God & know of His Kingdom.
Just because Yahshua bears a facet of his Father’s name DOES NOT MAKE HIM Yahweh! The Scriptures are so very clear on this.
Middle shelf the catholic perversion from centuries past & begin to embrace God’s Word through our Hebraic Heritage as grafted in Jews. In His Grip, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 17:29 pm

Re Post 302. Candace, I don’t agree that Mary had any risk of being stoned. I think it is clear from passages such as Mark 6:3 that during his time on Earth Jesus was considered to have come from a normal family, with a normal father and mother and with brothers and sisters just like any other young man. Nobody accused him of being illegitimate and there was no reason to suspect that Mary had committed adultery.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 15:34 pm

Re Post 299. Scott, first of all you’re not being picky at all. Actually there were much fewer than 4000 years of recorded history before the virgin birth. Parts of the Hebrew Bible were written centuries after the events that they describe. That’s NOT recorded history. That’s tradition. And the example I gave of the virgin mother in Egypt is also just that: a tradition. All I said was that a pre-existing tradition could have been recycled for Jesus. It’s not a claim. It’s a specualtion.

HOWEVER it is an incomplete perspective to look at the Bible in a vacuum. The stories of Yahweh were intertwined with those of Baal and other gods, and countries neighboring Israel underwent their own monotheistic evolutions and had their own ancillary episodes which were often similar to the stories we are familiar with. For example, long before Jesus declared himself the son of the one and only true God, King Akhenatem of Egypt had done EXACTLY the same thing. So I don’t think it is far-fetched to speculate that Israel’s traditions were influenced by other cultures.

Concerning the name Immanuel, Matthew was just copying what Isaiah had said. Copying is not fulfillment.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 15:32 pm

For all who question….”the Virgin Birth of Messiah” is based not on the gospels alone (they testify of the fulfillment) but on the many prophecies that Yahweh Himself breathed into his prophets. These prophecies were fufilled “EXACTLY” as YAHWEH SAID THEY WOULD BE. And if Miriam (Mary) had NOT been a virgin, she would have most definitly been stoned to death according to Jewish law.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 06:51 am

Mark,

When you make comments like #300, it only serves to convince me that you have little understanding of the true trinitarian position. I’m sure there are many well meaning trinitarians that make really dumb statements that they can’t back up and many of them probably occupy pulpits. Perhaps it was people like this that turned you off to these things; but if your argument is with them, why even waste your time? Anyone who simply says that Jesus is the “God of the OT” is making a very misleading and incomplete statement.

I’d like to think you know better than this but then I would have to conclude that you were making a mockery of trinitarians and I don’t know which is worse.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 06:03 am

Don’t forget Matt 1:18 the Genesis of Jesus Christ was as follows vrs23 a virgin shall be with child and bear a Son…Luke 1:35 the one who is born will be called the God of the old testament!!!

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 05:20 am

Charles,

My point is that the basis for the NT record of the virgin birth is explicitly stated as the fulfillment of a 500 year old prophecy and not a pagan myth, legend or tradition. Whether or not anyone thinks Isaiah was co-opting a pagan myth is a completely different matter and would require a bit more in-depth analysis.

And not intending to be inordinately picky, but before the virgin birth, there was only 4,000 years of recorded history and just exactly when and where the pagan myths about virgins really began is probably a bit speculative.

Concerning the name Immanuel, that also is explicitly mentioned in Matthew 1:23 as the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy; not because everyone called Christ “Immanuel” but because of what the name means: “God with us”. This is a common prophetic method. There are literally dozens of “names” ascribed to Jesus from the OT though none of them were his actual birth name: Jesus (savior).

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 04:28 am

Scott, re your post 297, Isaiah prophesied five hundred years earlier, but the example I mentioned in post 294 happened five THOUSAND years earlier. The idea of a virgin birth had been around long before Isaiah.

Isaiah doesn’t give a timing to his prophecy, doesn’t give the virgin a name, and doesn’t get the name of Jesus right. You can argue about this as many have, but Immanuel and Jesus are not the same name and therefore not the same man. I made my point about vague prophecies in post 269.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 03:12 am

Matthew 1:22-23 tells us EXACTLY where the basis for the virgin birth comes from: it was PROPHESIED in Isaiah nearly 500 years earlier.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 02:25 am

Jayant, re your post 295, it seems that Luke and Matthew both wrote about the virginity of Mary without reading each other. From your (religious) point of view this probably means that both evangelists were inspireed to write the same thing. From my (practical) point of view it probably means that the belief had been in circulation before the gospels were written. It is not a “presumption” or a “theory” to suggest that such a tradition might have been derived from other religions. Religions share commonalities, not least among them the concept of gods having children and the similarities in the stories and miracles.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/27/2010 22:54 pm

Matthew and Luke narrates the Gospel, including the the narraives of Jeusus’ birth, on the basis of the events that took place. They just describes what events took place and not theorizing or giving philosophical explanation of the virgin birth. It is therefore quite unlikely that they wrote about virgin birth on the basis of some Egyptain, Greek or roman (or even some Hindu tradition, some one say try to include) traditions! Christian beliefs in the virgin birth is based on these Gopsel , and not on those other traditions. Making some presumptions doesn’t make it a good theory.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/27/2010 21:19 pm

With regard to the virginity of Mary one may note that the idea may have been inherited from earlier religions. For example we find that long before the birth of Jesus the Egyptian goddess Neith was credited with giving birth to a god without engaging in sex. It is a way to combine godly and human attributes in a person, something which was very common in the Egyptian, Greek and Roman (early Christian) cultures.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/27/2010 14:34 pm

Post 292 and others have made reference to the assumption that Jesus was born without sin. I would like to remind everybody that this is only an assumption based mostly on Col 2:9 (For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form) and on a chauvinistic bias which presumes that sin is passed only by the father. These are all dubious assumptions. The Bible does NOT say that Jesus was sinless at birth.

At the same, though, the Bible does NOT say anything about the original sin until Paul introduces the concept 25 years AFTER the death of Jesus (see my post 2 on Romans 5:12).

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/27/2010 14:13 pm

Dearest Scott, Thank you for your patience & continung to endeavor to understand why I remain unmovable in the truth the scriptures themselves declare!
Scott, I have never once said that Yahshua had no advantage over the rest of us pathetic humans. He had & still has GREAT advantage in he had the privilege of being “BEGOTTEN OF GOD”. HE ALSO HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF being BORN w/out the sin nature we have all inherited from Adam & Eve. He has the privilege of being Adam remade, if you will, as the “Last Adam” to redeem mankind back to what Adam was before the fall. We were to be perfect in every way. We were to have glorious, unbroken fellowship w/ God our Father. We were to take dominion over all God’s creation & walk in total dependance to our Father but yet total freedom knowing God’s unfathomable Love. All of that was lost when Adam & Eve forfeited their gift because they wanted to “become like God….”. Yahweh’s plan was to send the promised Messiah, the Lamb of God to “redeem” us all back to once more live & not die in the glorious presence of our Heavenly Father. Yahshua was that plan made manifest in the fullness of time. Made like his brethren(Heb 2:7) for only human blood could purchase back what another human being had lost. (Roman 5:12) “just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin…………..vs 15 ” for if many died through one man’s tresspass, much more have the grace of God & the free gift by the grace of “that one man” Jesus Christ abounded for many.”ESV
I can only draw my conclusion from the Word of God & not creeds of men. The scripture is clear, the doctrines of men are confusing & distorted & rob our precious Savior of the very real & horrendeous price he paid that we be truly redeemed back to what God’s original intention for us was to be.
Scott, I will address the virgin birth at a later time…..I’m very fatigued. Much Agape, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/27/2010 08:08 am

Candace/Mark,

Many of our mutual beiefs regarding the work of Jesus on our behalf (forgiveness, justification, sanctification, destiny, authority, kingdom rule, glorification)seem to run on parallel tracks. You both speak of the “beauty of the great truth” that Jesus was a created being like any other man and the “difficulty” that a “proud” man has in accepting that. Trinitarians would say the same thing about those who refuse to accept the divinity of Christ. Personally, I don’t like judging a person’s motives; whether we are truly open to each other’s POV will only occur as we hammer the scriptures on the anvil of truth.

But even though we may share many peripheral beliefs about the WORK of Christ, there is a great chasm of difference regarding our beliefs about the PERSON of Christ. I think you would both agree that this is a critical difference. A “game changer” as the saying goes.

As I’m truly trying to understand your position, I only come away shaking my head in the same manner that both of you likely do toward me and other trinitarians. [Candace, you’ve begun to answer my question posted under Gen. 2:7. I’d like to respond but I would prefer that you post your answer under that text and we can carry on from there].

So, the aforementioned being said; why was the virgin birth necessary? I don’t understand your position on this at all. Why was it even necessary for God’s Son to come into the world? Candace said he had no particular advantage over any other human being so how was he able to live a sinless life? What made his intercession more powerful than anyone elses? Perhaps the best way to ask the question is: Just what do you mean by the “Son” of God? HOW is your Jesus the son of God? What is your understanding of what took place inside of Mary?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/26/2010 22:35 pm

Candance is explaining very simply if you at all have desire to liston to your sister in Christ… Her points hold up to the bible teaching far better than anything any one else has said in this long post. If you are here to prove your point or your already held belief then I pitty you. Scott you sound like and inteligent guy and I respect your right to your interpetation. The only way the scripture can not be broken is through exactly what Candace is pointing out. Be wrong is a difficult thing to overcome for proud people, so I pray that you and the other believers would come to see the beauty in this great truth. It is so difficult for christians to believe this revelation that Yahweh is sole master of the entire creation especially of his beloved son.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/26/2010 18:41 pm

So sorry Scott…I’ve been having quite an awful time w/ a major virus disrupting my computer. Still working on that:(
Why was Yahshua even tempted by satan himself for 40 day if it really wasn’t a temptation.(God is not tempted neither does He tempt) If Yahshua was incapable of sinning it was all for not & a huge farce.
Those temptations were very real & Yahshua could have succumbed to anyone of them. After his grueling time of testing, Yahshua needed the angels to come & strengthen him.
When the scripture teach he overcame the world, they literrally mean he succeeded where Adam failed. Yahshua knew his mission was to overcome so we too could overcome just like he had by “walking in the spirit” connected to our Father. Remember, he said, I can do nothing. Because he overcame, we are more than conquerors & destined to be co-heirs & joint rulers w/ the Son of God.
If he’s truly God then his temptations were bogus & he overcame nothing. His crucifiction is a sham for God can not die. And we can never be like him or do the greater works for he’s God & we’re not.(I Jn 3:2) We have no mediator for he is God, no high priest etc. The scriptures become hopelessly broken. Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/26/2010 08:00 am

Scott, concerning your question (Gen 2:7) There’s a very simple answer but you may not receive it as my dealings w/ you have proven time & time again.
” Whuy didn’t God just make Adam sinless like Jesus” (paraphrase) Yahshua WAS made just like Adam. i.e without sin! BUT, Yahsua just like Asam have a FREE WILL. God did not want pre-programed robots. He wanted us to choose Him & love Him of our own free will. Yahshua/Jesus was evrey bit as capable of sinning as Adam was or any of us.HE CHOSE NOT TO.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/26/2010 07:34 am

Roland (post 286), I have very simple answers to your questions and comments.

You wrote: If the original manuscripts in ANY language DID exist how would anyone know that what the prophets wrote was from God even if we knew what the original Bible said?

Answer: We don’t know now and we wouldn’t know then. This is a matter of belief. You may BELIEVE they are from God, but you can’t state it as a fact. You can’t back up your belief with proof.

You wrote: If the original manuscripts fell apart or crumbled with age, how would anyone know the copies we have today are accurate?

Answer. Again, we don’t know. We DO know that changes were made from the earliest surviving copies to the present versions but we may never know what changes were made from the originals.

You wrote: If God did not inspire His written Word, the Holy Bible would not have stood the test of time.

Again, we don’t have God’s original word, so obviously the Bible has NOT withstood the test of time.

You wrote: It would be unreasonable to expect a 2000-year piece of “paper” made from a plant to remain intact.

I totally agree, and this just goes to show that the Bible is an earthly thing written by earthly beings and subject to earthly conditions just like any book. If it was from an infinite God, would he have let his word disappear?

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/26/2010 01:49 am

Charles (post 284),

I have a greater question: If the original manuscripts in ANY language DID exist how would anyone know that what the prophets wrote was from God even if we knew what the original Bible said? There is a lesser question in degree or importance: If the original manuscripts fell apart or crumbled with age, how would anyone know the copies we have today are accurate?

Most Bible academicians around the world are in final agreement the text we have in print today from the oldest manuscripts available are accurate except for minor variants. Original language text (copied from the original text if you prefer) on the sixty-six books of the Holy Bible is available online for scrutiny. Commercial programs are also available to aide in textual criticism.

Historians agree that Scribes wrote on paper made from the papyrus plant. The papyrus plant dried, became brittle, and crumbled much like a large leaf placed between the pages of a book. Other manuscripts were handwritten on paper made from thin animal skins, but the ink faded. Scribes scraped the original skins and rewrote on them. As a manuscript aged, faded, or began to fall apart, devout Scribes copied them by hand on fresh “paper.” In this manner, men inspired of God preserved God’s Word in the original languages. God, in reality, inspires His written Word (2 Tim. 3:16). If God did not inspire His written Word, the Holy Bible would not have stood the test of time.

It would be unreasonable to expect a 2000-year piece of “paper” made from a plant to remain intact. It would be equally unreasonable to expect the ink on an animal skin not to fade. Today, there are many people who save receipts when they buy products or goods. Cash registers print receipts with good ink on good paper. Yet, the ink fades within a matter of years, the paper receipt exposed only to air.

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/26/2010 01:08 am

Where are you people “getting” this phase…”God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”???? That can be found nowhere in any of the translations I’ve studied & those are many. Or are those bogus titles coming from men & their creeds which evolved some 300 yrs after Yahshua’s death & resurrection? Why do so many insist on building their doctrines on creeds of unsaved, unspirit filled men instead of the the Word of God???? Yahshua “coming from” God, IS NOT GOD but the Son of God. “Broken Record”…..Yahshua being given “All” by God an Heir. i.e his anointing (the Christ) his authority, his power, his life even comes from the Father, his resurrection, his position (at the right hand of God) his kingdom, everything was given him by God!
Mark….EXCELLENT pont! i.e John did not see the Lamb/Yahshua/the Son while in the presence of Almighty God! It took any angel to show him “who WAS worthy” to open the scrolls. AND GOD, ON HIS THRONE, HANDED the scrolls to THE LAMB to open! Did the Father hand those scrolls to Himself??? That Lamb, who still bears the scars of his sacrifice was the only one worhty. Yahweh DOES NOT bear those scars! The Glorified Christ (anointed one) does, (broken record) The LAST ADAM! Not GOD Almighty. We were redeemed by one such as ourselves….a “man” made perfect because his Father IS God. Gal 4:4 “in the fullness of time God sent forth His son, MADE of a woman”.KJV “The SEED of a woman shall bruise the head of satan”. Gen 3:15 God IS not a seed, the promised Msessiah or The Lamb. Yes, God is Savior & He choose to save us through the shed blood of His son.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 23:00 pm

Roland (post 283), how do you know what the original Bible said. Nobody alive today has any originals in ANY language.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 19:57 pm

Reply to Post 281

Mark, God the Son in His deity existed in eternity past. In fact, He has been fully active since before He made the worlds(Heb. 1:2). God the Son in His deity revealed Himself and spoke to humankind before His incarnation not only through the prophets, but through the agency of God the Holy Spirit. God the Son in His deity spoke to humankind openly. He did not speak to humankind in secret. He plainly tells you this Himself in Isaiah 48:16.

God the Son in His deity IS the Alpha. In His glorified God-man “body,” His human and divine natures forever united, Jesus the Christ IS the Omega (Rev. 1:8).

Translators of the original languages of the Holy Bible often go through painstaking effort to decide the intent of an author. Writing the author’s intended meaning in plain language, especially in another language including English, can be difficult. A translator’s error does not corrupt God’s Word preserved in the original languages of the Holy Bible.

Hope this helps. Merry Christmas to all.

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 18:18 pm

Sorry Heb 1:1-2

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 09:53 am

Roland there is no God the Son, this is the purpose of this whole discussion. Heb 5:1 Is stating that GOD Yahweh the eternal never spoke to us through his son previous to his creation. How could he speak to or through a son that hadn’t been created yet. Heb.1:2 Has “when” in these last days Has spoken to us by his son. Whom (God Yahweh father) He has appointed Heir of all things… “Now comes the corruption of scripture”If the translator uses the word “for” “or on account of” this verse makes sense to the previous verse and a half, once you say Through you destroy the first verse and a half and make it void of sense…

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 09:52 am

Reply to post 277

Charles, the rhetorical question in Heb. 1:5 is designed to answer the question whether God in His humanity is SUPERIOR to angelic creation. There is no question that God the Son in His Deity is superior to angels – after all He created the host of heaven! Therefore, the question posed, To which of the angels did He [God the Father] say . . . .” The obvious answer is “to none.” Why? God was not an angel. In His humanity, God the Son REMAINED superior to angelic creation.

Hope this helps. Merry Christmas to all.

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 07:34 am

Candace,

Please excuse MY ignorance. My limited understanding of Unitarians is they believe in God as one person. (Perhaps I should use a lower case “u”). Though united in the belief of three persons in one God I know that Trinitarians are all over the map on most other issues of doctrine. I suppose it’s the same with unitarians as well. Forgive me if I’ve lumped you under a label that doesn’t apply.

Regarding the question about Genesis 2:7; you’ll find it in post #6 under Genesis 2:7.

Regarding your question about Jesus’ prayer in John 17; I have a couple of thoughts:

I know you are familiar with Eph 4:3 concerning the “unity of the Spirit”. Also “Christ in you the hope of glory” as well as numerous other verses referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Now, this may open up a whole new “can of worms” because it gets into the teaching of the person of the Holy Spirit and I know there are many who do not believe in “God the Holy Spirit”; but to a Trinitarian, the indwelling of the Spirit of God and Christ in the individual believer is tantamount to “becoming” God himself. (I put this in quotes because it needs clarification; bear with me).

As a new creature in Christ, our nature is changed from a God hater to a God lover. This happens as the very Spirit of God himself indwells our spirit. In this way, it can be said that we are “like God”. The sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit is for the express purpose of conforming us to the character of Christ (who is God). Therefore, we can become “one” with the Father and the Son because we are indwelt by the very same Spirit. We cannot; however, “become” God. Unity in the Spirit and Oneness in nature cannot change our dependence as creatures; “Without me, you can do nothing.”

God always wanted mankind to “be like God”; but Satan (who also wants to be like God) convinced our first parents that they could do it on their own. But Satan’s modus operendi is in direct conflict with God’s who wanted it to occur in HIS way. When we become “like God” as a result of the grace of God by the Spirit of God; it can then be truly said that we are One with God.

This is what I believe Jesus was praying about.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 06:17 am

“As God, Jesus Christ was not able to sin. As Man, Jesus Christ was able not to sin.” (#276)

Roland- Well said! And thanks for weighing in on the discussion.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 05:20 am

Roland, I am glad you got back to the verse in question (your post 276). You said “We now come to Hebrews 1:5. The author makes a statement of fact in the form of a question – a rhetorical one.”

Rhetorical questions have obvious answers. To me this question would be rhetorical only if Jesus was an angel, in which case the obvious answer would be “the angel Jesus”. Do you accept this seemingly foregone conclusion that Jesus was nothing but a mere angel?

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 04:57 am

The author of Hebrews asserts the superiority of God the Son in His humanity over angelic beings. In Heb. 1:1-4, Jesus, the Son of God, appeared on the earth, atoned for our sins, and sat at the right hand of the God the Father in heaven. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit existed in eternity past before creating angelic beings. God the Father is the author of the plan of salvation for humankind, God the Son is the executer of the plan of salvation, and God the Holy Spirit is the revealer of the plan of salvation.

We now come to Hebrews 1:5. The author makes a statement of fact in the form of a question – a rhetorical one. To which of the angels [class of spiritual beings] said He [God the Father] Thou art my Son [God the Son in His humanity] this day [the day God the Son incarnated into this world as flesh and blood with a sinless human nature] have I begotten thee [God the Son in His humanity]? And again, I will be to him [God the Son in His humanity] a Father [like any human father would be to a human son], and he [God the Son in His humanity] shall be to me [God the Father] a Son.”

When God the son was born as humankind, He took on a dual nature. He was fully God and fully man. As God, Jesus Christ was not able to sin. As Man, Jesus Christ was able not to sin.

By Roland G (wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/25/2010 02:12 am

The discusion has roamed but the core is how did Jesus become God. The simple answer is it happen when the legend grew as word spread across the known world. Has the legend grew over the first three centuries man had turned away from the Jew Jesus and turned him into the greek jesus and this let to his amalgumation and transformation from man to God. But the problem was there was only one God in Israel and that was Yahweh. So the gentiles turned the son of God into God the son and then added the holy spirit to boot. Its no wonder everyone is confused. But the demons know the truth because they are spirit and they see into heaven. There is only one God sitting on the throne. So thats why James 2:18 states the demons fear. So what Im saying is that it is our physical limitations that keep us from just looking to the throne of God like John did in Rev.5:1-7 John the apostle spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus and forgot he even existed for 1/2 hour till one of the elders reminded him about the lamb. I find this astounding that in the presence of GOd alone he forgot who Jesus or as you say the other god was…

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 23:06 pm

Although Hebrew 1:5 is the reference being comented upon here, the contributors have roamed through the Bible!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 17:14 pm

“Whoever denies that Yahshua(Yahweh is Savior)came as a human being is an anti-Messiah” (1 John 2;23) as quoted in 272 is right. Those who followed the gnostic teaching held that Jesus could not be God if he had come in the flesh. But this was the nullifying of the death of the cross of Jesus that was there for our salvation. This was a hersey John warned the people of God about. This verse says Jesus CAME! it doesn’t say jesus was born in the flesh. And Jesus had said that he had come from the Father. He was in the bosom of the Father. he proceeded from the Father! The Father was the foutain head, the source, the origin (Kephale in Greek. Any one ccoming from the God Father cannot be less than God!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 17:12 pm

Welcome Stephen….Heb 1:5 was but an invitation to enter into a discussion concerning who “The Son of God” truly is. As you can see, the Body of Christ is most definitely divided on this most impotant truth….in fact, our very salvation depends upon it! (IJohn 4:2,3) “whoever denies that Yahshua came as a human being is anti-Messiah”. CJB (IJohn 2:23) “Everyone who denies the Son, is w/out the Father, but the person who acknowledges the Son has the Father as well.” May the Ruach ha Kodesh lead & guide you into ALL truth.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 16:33 pm

Dear Bible Commentators, as a regular visitor (but I never post) I want to know why this Bible Verse is so popular with you? More than 250 postings! I don’t mind if you continue discussing this particular Bible Verse, but please don’t forget the rest of God’s Word. I am looking forward to see your comments on other Verses the coming year.

By Stephan R (wrote 2 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 12:39 pm

Scott, excuse my ignorance but I don’t know where your ? is to Unitarians concerning Gen 2:7. I would gladly comment if relevant. I don’t espouse to being a Unitarian.
Sorry you find me a “broken record” but I continue to address these scriptures because you seem to ignore these very potent scriptures as bearing no weight concerning who the Son of God is. Do we just throw them away because they don’t fit one’s theology??? Or…is it true “the scriptures can not be broken”? “Know you not that you are gods too”?(Jn 10:34) How do you interprete that, Scott? I think there’s huge revelation here concerning the nature of Christ & our authority given by him. And I am quite curious in what to do w/ Yahshua’s prayer in John 17:21 when he prayed….” that they all may be one; as Thou, Father art in me & I in Thee, that they also may be one in us”. & vs 22 “THAT THEY MAY BE ONE EVEN AS WE ARE ONE” Are we God Almighty too???? By your logic “I & the Father are one” makes Yahshua God Himself then Yahshua’s prayer to His Father must make us God too?

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 08:27 am

Oops, sorry Scott. No it wasn’t Nicodemus I was referring to but Nostradamus! I got the names mixed up. Perhaps I’m reading too much Bible

Nostradamus, as I’m sure you know, was a 16th century apothecary who became famous for a book of prophecies written in the form of a poem. His followers claim that he correctly predicted World War II, 9/11, and many other events. His prophecies had little to do with religion but I made the comparison with the Bible because I feel they are equally vague and therefore allow their followers to interpret anything they want to believe.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 03:16 am

Charles,

You are correct in that I was referring to the prophecies of Revelation. But I was referring to them for the purpose of gaining a broader understanding of the nature of Jesus. Prophecy or history, the character of God/Christ is revealed in both.

Concerning the reliability of biblical prophecy, if it isn’t 100% accurate, then God and his word are no longer infallible. Personally, I find them amazingly accurate; however, they are only proven to be so AFTER they are fulfilled. Before that, the mystery and controversy can be nearly intolerable!

I’m not offended by what you said. I understand the sentiment. But after twenty years of studying biblical prophecy, I’ve come to learn that it’s generally man’s convoluted notions, preaching and publications that give prophecy a “bad name”. For more than twelve years I ran a printing press for a well-known Christian publishing house. I’ve seen/read every outlandish prophecy book from soup to nuts as they ran on my press. I printed The Late Great Planet Earth as well as the Left Behind series and everything in between. To say it bluntly; prophecy SELLS! It’s very sensational and easy to “package”. Accuracy is not something that’s really important. The real question is; is it relevant to the times we live in? And even if it isn’t, prophecy can easily be made to seem as if it is. Pedaling prophecy is extremely lucarative as an “industry”.

To me, it’s dispicable. But it doesn’t surprise me at all. In fact, it’s going to get worse; prophecy says so:-) But at the end of the day, I find that God is shouting through his prophetic word to anyone who truly has “ears to hear”.

BTW; you mention Nicodemus. How is he relevant concerning prophecy? Or are you speaking of a different person than the Nicodemus in the Bible?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 02:08 am

Scott, in post 256 you wrote “Speaking of Revelation; just turn to that book and you will read of the mighty acts of Jesus that so diminish the miracles in the OT as to render them nearly insignificant by comparison.”

I believe you are talking about prophecies, not miracles. We haven’t seen any of those “mighty acts”. I apologize if what I am about to say may offend your beliefs, but this is how I really feel about this subject: I find the OT prophecies no more dependable than those of Nicodemus and I don’t expect the NT propehcies to be any better. What Nicodemus and the Bible have in common is that neither offers any specifics, dates or details but only vagueness that can be interpreted and/or justified in any number of ways.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 22:52 pm

Candace,

BTW; I left a question for Unitarians at Genesis 2:7. Perhaps you’d weigh in when you get a chance.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 22:20 pm

Candace,

You sound like a broken record as you continually repeat the mantra of your doctrine. It seems at times that you are only trying to convince yourself through much repetition. As I’ve said before, your Jesus is no man at all. Your doctrine creates a hybrid of PART man and PART God (just exactly what was it that fertilized Mary’s egg?). As such, I fail to see how he can represent either party as a mediator for he is neither God nor man. Your Jesus is more akin to something from Greek Mythology. He is a creation of another order entirely; and as such, is not qualified as an intercessor.

OTOH, the Trinitarian Jesus, as the creator of mankind, has it well within his power to become fully man himself. As such, he is no hybrid at all, he is fully God and fully man. He’s greater than all mankind so he is well qualified to interceed for everyone.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 22:16 pm

I wish I could take my last post back. It slipped from my fingers before I had a chance to proof read it. For that I deeply apololgize. Hopefully you can make heads or tails of this mess:(

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 21:39 pm

was the “ONLY BEGOTTEN” of God & The “Firstborn” of many brethren! God is not & never will be firstborn. Yahshua IS human, made like unto his brethren in EVERY WAY.(Hebrews 2:17)
There’s a glorious truth here if one is willing to drop the traditions of men & read the word of God for what it is REALLY saying.
Be Blessed, be full & may all truth be restored.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 21:34 pm

Scott….eloquent you truly are but in understanding the profound simplicity scripture…you have failed.
The “Last” Adam is exactly that…Adam i.e “man”. It took a “man” to redeem us back to God & what we were to be in “Adam” before the fall. There is NO “God the Son”. There is ONE GOD & Him alone! His plan, His Christ, The perfect Son, the Passover Lamb, able to sin (free will) but did not because of his love for his Father & his love for all humankind. Yahshua knew God’s heart because he spent a lifetime in communion & prayer w/ Him/Yahweh preparing for the reason he was born…..to DIE as the perfect sacrifice for uas all. Yahshua enjoyed the ame “unbroken” fellowship w/ Yahweh,Adam did before his fall. Yahshua was given by Gos to restore that fellowship w/ ‘MANKIND” thru the MAN Christ Jesus! ” There is ONE “mediator” between God & men…THE MAN Christ Jesus”. (I Tim 2:5Yahshua never ceased being God! And if he had emptied himself of “being God” than he NEVER picked his “Godness” back up! HE’S STILL A MAN IN HEAVEN! Glorified, our high priest, our mediator our intercessor…if you make him God WE HAVE NO MEDIATOR. And worse than that…we have TWO Gods, one being inferiorwho has a God over him (Rev 2:12) Bad theology & bad interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures. You seem to be aliegning w/ The Nicene & the Athenasian Creed over The Word of God. The the Catholic perversion of God’s Word & who His Son truly is.
Being “God” & “having the FULLNESS of God dwelling w/in”…are TWO different things. ( Col 1:19…God was pleased to have His fullness dwell in him/Christ”) THE WORD WAS WITH GOD! The Word has ALWAYS existed! The Word of God was MADE flesh in the FULLNESS OF time! (Gal 4:4 God/Yahweh GAVE the Son His/Yahweh’s glory, His name, His authority & His/Yahweh’s Kingdon which the Son wil give back to Him?Yahweh that God may be ALL & ALL! (I Cor 15:28Dearest Scott…you are not dimishing Yahshua or his sacridice when you give him back his humanity. On the contrary, you are giving him the exteem & honor due hi for the greatness of his sacrifice! If he was God than his sacrifice is meaningless & w/out the horrendous consequence that it truly was. As God, it is nothing for him. But as the Last Adam w/out our sin nature, the sentence of becoming the sin of all mankind, the disease, the eiquity etc to be seperated from the God & Father he loved, worshiped & adored is profound & a sacifice that should cause us to fall to our faces & wep for it’s greatness. If The father had not raised him, Yahshua would be inthe grave still. It’s because of his obedience unto death & the Father’s righteous judgement the He/God raised His son & seated him at His/Yahweh’s right hand of authority.(positional)as in Hebrew custom to pass the Blessing & Position down to a father’s son.

Hence “Heir” & we joint heirs with THE SONGod is not & never can be a man. He IS Spirit.
God can NOT die!
God is NOT the Son.
The Son IS The :ast Adam made to what the first Adam was but different in the fact Yahshua

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 21:26 pm

Jayant Christian,

The version that you give reference to is obviously a Trinitarian or Oneness interpolation in giving reference to Father Yahweh’s son as a “God”. A number of versions give reference to Yahshua as “God” simply for marketing to such who believe that Yahshua was a “God” or “The God”.

No one has ever seen God. God’s only Son, the one who is closest to the Father’s heart, has made him known (John 1:18 - GOD’S WORD® Translation ©1995).

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him] (John 1:18 - King James Bible).

No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him (John 1:18 - American King James Version).

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him (John 1:18 - American Standard Version).

No man has seen God at any time; the only Son, who is on the breast of the Father, he has made clear what God is (John 1:18 - Bible in Basic English).

No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him (John 1:18 - Douay-Rheims Bible).

Many other versions word this verse in the same manner in not giving reference to Father Yahweh’s son as a “God”.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

“Jesus IS God!”?
http://freewebs.com/frank4yahweh

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 21:09 pm

“If he preexisted in any form he could not be from the line of David.”

Mark,

I don’t know how you determine that pre-existence in any form precludes Jesus from being of the line of David. You even suggest the scriptures say so. But on the contrary, Hebrews 10:5 declares; “a BODY you have prepared for me”. This is also affirmed in Hebrews 2:14. The seed (egg) of the woman was necessary for producing a body of flesh, blood and bone. This is what made Jesus a human being like all other men. And yes, Mary was Jesus’ real Mom. His humanity was not fabricated. As the Last Adam, he WAS just like the first Adam. Jesus’ body was made from the dust of the earth just like Adam’s was because he was fully human. You and I don’t have a disagreement regarding the literal humanity of Christ. Pre-existence and deity are the tripping points. You seem to say pre-existence essentially disqualifies Christ from becoming truly human. I don’t know how that can be supported biblically or even intellectually unless you happen to be omniscient.

You also say: “If Jesus sinned..,” and; “Jesus say he can do nothing without the father.”

First of all, Jesus had life WITHIN himself; he could’ve done EVERYTHING without the Father; but of course, this would mean he would not have accomplished it AS A MAN and so be the new representative of ALL men (the Last Adam). We, on the other hand, do NOT have life within ourselves. Our life is a gift. Jesus IS life. But, as I said before, he gave up his perogative to use this power but he never gave up who he IS. As God the Son in flesh, Jesus would not yeild to sin any more than God the Father would have. Could he have sinned? I don’t know. Can God sin? I only know that Jesus didn’t sin.

Regarding your point of 1 Tim 6:16, Jesus also said; “No man taketh it (my life) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down , and I have power to take it again.” Also, John 5; “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.”

That the Source of Life should dwell in any human being is truly an exceptional statement. But how could any mere human being contain the power of Life in himself unless he WAS life itself? “I am.., the Life!”

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 17:41 pm

Again Scott it sounds good but it doesn’t hold up to the scriptures. If he preexisted in any form he could not be from the line of David. Which the Israelites understood that he would come from the root of Jessie, as the father told Moses Deut 18:18 This could only happen if Mary contributed her egg. This is what the word begetting means to come into or fourth from. She was Jesus real mom not a surrogate. It is a much greater testamony for a created man who’s father is the one and only God to father a child than to make Jesus into a caterpillar and then a butterfly. The second Adam was just as created as the first. Why would he be called Adam if he wasn’t like Adam. When Abraham was asked to sacrifce his son are we to believe he was his son? If Jesus sinned would God then melted down because part of him was destroyed. The surpreme creator ruler of the universe is not going to seize to exist because of any human’s sin’s. The father is the single source of all power and he grants a bit of it to whom he chooses. Jesus say he can do nothing without the father and only the father can raise him, this is power only the father has which is proof that he alone has imortality I Tim 6:16

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 15:53 pm

“If he preexisted as part or as any kind of living matter then him recieving eternal life is meaningless because he already had it. So us humans then can’t realy related ever to this god man who can’t really then say he feels our pain.”

Mark,

This part of your comment is a little hard to understand. I’m not sure what you are saying. But if you are saying that if Jesus pre-existed, then he would’ve had eternal life so he really would not have been able to feel our pain; I again have to disagree with you. You see, this very point is the essence of the incarnation: if God became a man, did he REALLY and FULLY become a man? To me, I believe the scriptures resound in the affirmative. When it says that Jesus set aside his glory, it does not mean that he merely put it on the shelf so that he could take it back someday. It means he gave it up for good; even his eternal life. This was the only way he could be fully man. Jesus had no trick up his sleeve or ace in the hole or back door exit. He crossed over from heaven to earth on a one-way ticket. The only way he could hope to get back again was by either completing the mission of dying for our sins and relying on his Father to raise him up again; or by aborting the entire mission and calling for angels to transport him back to heaven thereby condemning the world to a Godless eternity.

And regarding the idea that Jesus was so privileged that he couldn’t “feel our pain”; all one needs to do is ponder the inhuman brutality he suffered for us and you quickly realize just how OVER-qualified Jesus is. Never did one man give up so much and receive so little in return. To the world, Jesus on the cross appeared to be a complete and miserable failure. But of course, it was this apparent failure that actually paid the full price of redemption for the souls of men.

If Jesus had not given up all of his glory and privilege, we would still be in our sins today.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 06:02 am

Scott, You sure took your time showing us your human side, very well spoken. I see your reasoning the problem with the Jews is he lets his pride tell him the messiah wasn’t what they expected and they didn’t want to give up there power block and humble themselves before christ. I feel the same way Jesus did about the other Jews, he didn’t find fault in there religion he found fault with there customs. Jesus didn’t have trouble with the law or the sabbath he had trouble with man made interpetations. Look at his defense of the Sabbath, he never said negative things about it he supported it. He reminded us that God rested on the seventh day and made it holy. He told us it was a gift. So Jesus religion and the Isreal’s religion were the same and it is today, its the interpetations that were and are in question. The Nature of God is seen in the son because he is the first of the new creation. I Cor 15:46 Is a piece of the understanding on how the father works first the physical then the spirtual follows and makes the statement that Jesus is the firstborn among many then makes sense. If he preexisted as part or as any kind of living matter then him recieving eternal life is meaningless because he already had it. So us humans then can’t realy related ever to this god man who can’t really then say he feels our pain.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 01:57 am

Mark and Charles,

The observations in both of your posts is reasonable and essentially biblical. However, I personally feel you both go too far with your conclusions.

Charles, you say that the revelation of the Father in the OT depicts him as a God of war and power, but Jesus is depicted as humble and peaceful. But surely these differences are not necessarily mutually exclusive. How many Psalms depict the Father as compassionate, merciful and forgiving even to a “thousand generations”? You find this also in the pentateuch and most of the prophets as well. And Jesus certainly had no shortage of power; raising the dead, controlling the wind and the sea, walking on water; casting out demons, flattening a large group of soldiers and religious leaders with his word. How does this display not rival that of the OT revelation? Speaking of Revelation; just turn to that book and you will read of the mighty acts of Jesus that so diminish the miracles in the OT as to render them nearly insignificant by comparison. The same is true concerning “unapproachable and fearsome”. There were many displays of the fearsomeness of Christ: twice cleansing the temple; “no one dared ask him any more questions”; “no man speaks like this man”; the Gadarenes feared him so much they asked him to leave their region. But it’s also important to remember that this was one of the very reasons why Jesus came to earth.., the only way God could ever hope to be completely APPROACHABLE by fallen humanity was to become human like they were. How can the finite ever approach the Infinite unless the Infinite makes himself approachable? “Philip, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” In the OT, God was approachable, but not in a personal way. It could only happen through the priesthood until the time came that all the temple ordinances and sacrifices pointed to: Calvary.

Mark, most of your points are the very same ones that many orthodox Jews cling to as reasons not to believe the NT. But the seeming paradox of all these things is instantly cleared up if Jesus, as God the Son, truly DID lay aside his deity and glory so as to become fully man; that is, a man who could literally be tempted and die. Surely, an omnipotent God could do this if he wanted to couldn’t he? And regarding 1Cor. 15:46; this refers to the CREATED order of things. If Jesus pre-existed in heaven, surely the wonder of that existence transcends any and everything we know. Some people think there is no such thing as matter in heaven. I believe there IS. It is matter unlike anything we understand in our dimension but tell me how does any created thing exist on earth that did not first have a greater corresponding reality in heaven?.., including animal and human bodies?

I too acknowledge the “paradoxes” that you both point out; I just come to a different conclusion about them than you do.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 00:28 am

Scott, what about the egg that Mary provides to bear this new creation and the promise that the christ would be from the line of David? Raised up like the human Moses. What about the traits that idenify the One Surpreme being known as Yahweh Jehovah LORD. 1 God does not change, Jesus Changed from physical to spiritual, not from spiritual to physical, scripture denies this premise I Cor 15:46 God can not be tempted.3 God can’t die, all of these scriptures prove that Jesus is not God and has no prior existance.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/22/2010 16:23 pm

Scott, thanks for your post 252. I wanted to make sure we are talking the same language.

So we agree that Jesus was positonally inferior to God. Where we don’t agree is that he was also personally inferior. As I pointed out in post 245 God and Jesus had very different personalities. God was about war and power while Jesus was about peace and humility. God was unapproachable and fearsome, Jesus kind and forgiving. God wasted no time telling us how great he was but all that Jesus could muster was that we needed him in order to get to God. I have to conclude that Jesus was inferior to God in both person and demeanor.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/22/2010 15:27 pm

Charles,

“Scott, define “physically” and “personally”. In order to answer your question I need to make sure we are semantically on the same page.

I believe you mean “positionally” and “personally”.

“Positionally” has to do with what someone DOES. For instance, a Colonel in the Army is positionally superior to a Private. He has more authority and by extension he has more power; therefore he can DO a lot more. He also has greater responsibility.

“Personally” has to do with what someone IS. For instance, the same Colonel, apart from the military, is simply another human being; no different from the Private. Positionally, the Colonel and Private are in very dis-similar worlds; but personally, they are of identical essence.

My point is that, by laying aside his glory and taking on human flesh, as it says in Colossians, Jesus became like one of us: positionally inferior to God. But even though he took on human flesh, Jesus did not relinquish his personhood. He was still of the same essence as his Father. (The only way the Colonel could ever hope to identify with the Private is to become one himself. But to do so, he would have to relinquish his positon as a Colonel).

A man can give up or lose all of his riches, power and glory; even become sick, diseased and dis-figured and yet, he is still a human being.

I believe that when Jesus is saying; “I and the Father are One”, he is not only saying I and the Father are one “in purpose” (what We do); but I and the Father are one “in essence” (who We are). It is in this regard that Jesus is the “Son of God”. He is of the very same essence as God the Father.

But by taking on human flesh (humanity), Jesus also becomes one in essence with US. In this regard, Jesus is the “Son of Man”.

This is why Jesus is uniquely qualified to be the “mediator between God and men”.

The distinction between position and person is commonly seen in everyday life. “Pastor John” (Pastor is the position, John is the person). President Obama; Colonel Sanders. Even Christ Jesus.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/22/2010 06:56 am

Scott, define “physically” and “personally”. In order to answer your question I need to make sure we are semantically on the same page.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/22/2010 03:45 am

Charles,

You said; “..these examples lead me to believe that Jesus was not just positionally inferior to the Father but personally as well.”

How is it that you conclude because Jesus is positionally inferior, he is also personally inferior?

The old story of “The Prince and the Pauper” is a classic example illustrating how this is not necessarily so.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/22/2010 02:56 am

Charles the bible was translated by trinitarians go to lookhigher.org and there is 200 copies of translated bibles look at the non triniatarian version like 1534 william Tyndale go to John 1:1 the new testament is full of Unitarian consistancy it is the changing of meanings such as all things were created through or by christ, when you study you will find the proper translation is clearly unitarian. Go to godward.org and read thousands of pages on every verse you have questions about. Read The Trinity Christianity self inflicted wound by Anthony Buzzard it covers hundereds of text on this subject.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 21:57 pm

Sorry…I have the worst time w/ these. Youtube, Tony Melendez singing “All Creation Worships You”. You won’t be dissappointed

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 20:52 pm

Dear Brethren…I have something I would dearly love to share with you. Please click on this link & sit back to listen to some of the most anointed worship I’ve heard in awhile. Tony Melendez was born without arms yet he plays beautiful guitar w/ his feet & sings praises to the Most High God w/ the voice the Father has given him. May you be thoroughly blessed Much Agape, Candace www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5GzOWkMiwl

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 20:50 pm

Jayant, re post 243, you are asking me the same question I have been asking myself since I attained the age of reason. I have tried to find the answer in the Bible. The OT defines God rather clearly (although I find inconsistencies even there), but the NT makes the identity of a “true God” very complicated.

I don’t know if the Bible can be reconciled. Has anybody ever tried?

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 20:49 pm

It baffles me to read these post and still the core motto of Gods people is Mark 12:26-32 Hear oh Israel the Lord God is one. Jesus confirms this with the scribe.John 58:41 We have one father GOD. John 7:41-42 John 10:33-34 Lets stone christ, he quotes Ps 82:6 John 17:3 All of these scriptures give christ the ability to say he is God and he denies it every time. verse 32 of Mark 12 For there is one God and NO other but He singular pronoun right Jesus, just waiting for him to say no I’am to, but it doesn’t happen because it would be blasphamy…In order to be the all powerfull all knowing all wise all loving, strong, mightiest called a God in the true sense of language it can only be One, any altering or changing of this weakens the and limits the Ultimate God.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 19:37 pm

Scott, re post 238

You’re right in saying that we can’t always judge what’s figurative and what’s literal. The parables are figurative. The term “sitting at the right hand of the father” is figurative. But the words “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”… well, that could be literal. That’s why I said that both sides have the scriptures on their side.

And they do NOT make Jesus less than the Father. I am sorry I gave you that impression. Actually this particular passage makes him equal to the Father. What makes Jesus inferior are the examples I gave in the next paragraph (Jesus being the gatekeeper and mediator, etc). And, yes, to use your terms, these examples lead me to believe that Jesus was not just positionally inferior to the Father but personally as well. So, again, some passages favor one side, others favor the other.

Here is what I see in the Bible. In the OT I see a one-person God who is powerful and jealous, leads his people to wars, and performs miracles on a grandiose scale (e.g. the flood and the parting of the Red Sea) that are meant to punish bad people and enemies. There is never even a mention of anyone else being equal to him, let alone the same as him. In the NT I see a humble human being who is never referred to as God but makes himself equal and the same with the God of the OT. This human being is in many ways the very opposite of his counterpart in the OT. He clearly dislikes some of the teachings of the old God (the “eye for an eye” part, for example) and performs miracles that are smaller in scale but bigger on love and compassion. How the Church/Trinitarians can conclude that these two disparate figures with different levels of power can be one and the same is totally beyond my reasoning.

Charles

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 18:26 pm

I continue to ask:

If Jesus is the son of God just because he is created by God, like me and you, why even a dog,as the creation of God be not called His son?

But in the Bible the very terms “the Son of God” meant and was understood as God.( See my post no 5 on John 14:10)

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 18:18 pm

Chareles,

You have here flowery welcome, no bloody sward!

Any way, do you believe in one true God as revealed in the Bible? If yes, how do you understand that revelation? If not, do you at all belive in God?

Condance, why do you call God as Abba Father? why not as Mother? or why not simply as God? why even name him?

Any one reading these posts will certainly come to know that there are arguments on both sides. If the Bible is true, there must be reconcilating of seeming or otherwise contradictory views. Or if they are inreconcilalbe, then leave the Bible as not being true!Why bother?

For me the Bible is the Word of God and is true. I am fool so much so that had the Bible said there are even five persons or a myriads of them making one God, I would have beleived that!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 18:11 pm

Charles, re Post #238:

There is much to disagree with in your post; but I’ll focus only on the idea of “two unequal Gods” so as to not get bogged down.

I find it intriguing that you have put your finger on the essence of the differences and even go so far as to say, “I feel that both sides.., have good reason to believe that they are right.” But then you rely on faulty if/then reasoning to tip the scales against the deity of Christ.

I say this for two reasons:

1. Your comments seem to be saying, “If Jesus is POSITIONALLY inferior to the Father then he is also PERSONALLY inferior to the Father. This kind of reasoning has a logical appeal but it isn’t even true in human relationships.

2. Once you’ve concluded that Jesus is inferior to the Father, you then seem to be saying, “If Jesus is inferior to the Father, then his language (in John 10 and 14) must be figurative.” But this is extrememly poor exegesis because there is absolutely nothing in the context of Jesus’ exhortations to his disciples that remotely suggest he is using figurative language. Accordingly, what’s to stop us from interpreting any of all the other words of Christ as figurative in some way?

But even if John 10:30 and 14:10 ARE figurative, you have made an interpretation of figurative speech that isn’t even warranted. In other words; why do you conclude that the “figurative” language; “I am in the Father and the Father is is me” should be interpreted as making Jesus LESS than the Father? If this language IS figurative (and at best, it is only metaphoric) then what relevant texts do you use to prove your interpretation is correct?

I’m not suggesting that the trinitarians are using these texts to absolutelty prove the doctrine of the Trinity. But at least the trinitarians are consistent in their method of interpreting these texts. You may argue with their conclusion; but it’s hard to remain objective and still argue with their method.

All followers of Christ struggle with the enigma of his nature. But I, as a so-called trinitarian, do not believe in the Trinity becasue of some doctrine that has been promulgated for centuries, but rather because I read the same texts as you do and see the deity of Jesus in them. I can’t explain how God can become a man, but I believe the life and testimony of Jesus declares that He did. If someone wants to call me a trinitarian because of that.., so be it.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 17:00 pm

Scott…..I have explained this to you so many times now & all I get from you is more sarcasm. I don’t care to receive any more of that from you. If you “really” want to know how I interprete those words than go back & re-read what I have already tried so hard to convey to you.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 08:07 am

With Great Joy, I say thank you, Charles Fiott! How I long for “The Word of God” to be taught & known & not these heretical doctrines, creeds & traditions of men. I’ve had many years of church history & it grieves me to see so many of my brethren in such deception. My heart is rejoicing as more come into Truth, more will hear & come out of their bondage. Yes, many will continue to persecute, martyr even but I do believe many will come to “know”. Thanks to men like yourself, Franklin & Mark I feel much joy indeed! Thank You, Abba, Father, Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 07:57 am

Will go round in circles, Scott for the tenth time, there is no eternal son in scripture, Jason for the tenth time word is not seperate from the one speaking in John 1 the word is the fathers words Deut 18:18 Blessed be the God and father. Jesus has both a God and a father. The father has no other beside himself for he is God and no other being is God nor can it ever be.WELCOME Charles to our discusion it gets a little testy with our trinitarin brothers but we were once trinitarians to. The problem we have is the one God of the old testament is consistant with the new God except were God has allowed for his purpose to let a few verse’s be altered by the trinitarins. The reason I believe is first he is not calling most people in the first reserection. The firstfruits are called first to be priest and kings ruling in the kingdom of God at the return of christ when the dead over the last six thousand years wake up and recieve there reward. The rest of the dead which don’t live again until the end of the thousand years Rev,19 Which I believe is why this doctrine of the one God has decieved billions of people. Mainstream christianity is basicly the same as the Islam and the other man made religions. Christianity is not the religion that the first century church established it had to go under ground from persicusion and the doctrine of men took over and were consimated at nicean when all the doctrines had been replaced by the pagon influence of greek and roman synchroism.So the rebellion of Luther and now the vangelical movement of the last 50 plus years hasn’t gone back to the doctrines of the bible, so God has cut them off and let the carnal mind lead millions or billions in error.But the father new this is what would happen and when the dead live again they will have a chance to follow christ in worshipping his God and father and when all sin and judgement have been completed Rev 21 the father will bring the new Jerusalem down and he will be our God and Jesus will be worshipping him right along with us forever. This is the short version…Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/21/2010 04:51 am

This is my first posting on this verse. I normally keep my comments short but, having skimmed through 234 postings, I am afraid I may test your patience just this one time.

First of all I must say that I find it very relieving to have an outlet like this where one debate topics that reach so deep into our emotions and I think the worst damage one can do to one’s own cause is to resort to degrading comments and name calling. One of my favorite passages in the Bible is Philippians 2:3, “Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves.” In all my comments I will strive to be guided by this verse.

Initially I thought Hebrew 1:5 was about Jesus’ relationship to the angels (or should I say “the other angels”?) But this argument leads directly to whether Jesus was created or not. Therefore I am not surprised to see that this has developed into the issue of Jesus’ divinity. Unlike pagans, Christians do not believe that a human can become god, so the Church had a “mystery” to deal with when it decided to worship a human god. Now we should not forget that (a) “the Bible” is a set of writings chosen by the Church somewhere between the 2nd and 4th centuries AD and this choice was no doubt influenced by what the authorities of the time wanted to promulgate; and (b) we do not know exactly what even these chosen books tell us because by then they had all been destroyed or missing; we can only base conclusions on what the altered copies tell us.

In general, and despite all the acrimony, I feel that both sides in this long thread have good reason to believe that they are right. Those who are convinced that Jesus is God have several passages on their side, particularly in John 1 and John 14. Jesus is never quoted as saying that he was God, however few can argue with his claims of divine power when he insists on being one with the Father and having been in existence before Abraham.

On the other hand, these powers that Jesus had were subject to those of his (and our) father. Jesus is the gatekeeper (“no one comes to the Father except through me”) and the mediator (“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus). There are numerous other passages that also put Jesus in an inferior position vis-à-vis “the primary God”. For example we find him sitting “at the right hand of the Father”, which makes him second-in-command. He prays to the Father, who is the decision-maker (“not my will but yours be done”). He even pleads with the Father (“why have you forsaken me?). These are NOT the actions of someone who is equal with, let alone same as, God!

So how can one reconcile the Bible to itself? Only by being “heretic” I’d say! We have to accept that Jesus had divine powers, otherwise some of his attributed statements would be lies. But, since Jesus’ position was inferior to that of the Father, we would have to take statements such as being “one with the Father” and “in the Father” as figurative speech. So now we have two gods, an all-powerful one who makes all the decisions and a lesser deity who acts as a gatekeeper and a mediator and who is even sacrificed as the lamb of God (not the “God of lamb”, as Candace aptly put it). I think this is what the Bible says: that we have two unequal gods.

But, of course, that’s heresy! That’s pagan! That’s not what we were taught! Reconciling the Bible unto itself was a major challenge to the Church, so it invented this thing called Trinity. This allows us to have both the father and son as gods, pardon me: “as one God”, and even throws in a third deity, pardon me: “third person”, for good measure. This was a brilliant idea that reconciled the two testaments without adding another god! This “solution to the puzzle” has been enforced for about eighteen centuries with all means possible, including burning at the stake.

There is one big problem with this “solution”, though. It is not in the Bible, so it doesn’t solve anything.

By Charles Fiott (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/20/2010 17:40 pm

Reference comments #231:

John introduces Jesus as the Word of God, the word who was God. the word was in the begining. what does the word begining means here is explained in John 1:3; “All things were made by him; and without him nothing was made” Again, Colossains 1:16-17 asserts that as well: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that a re in earth, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE..all things were created by him and for him. and he is before all things and by him all things consist” There two categories. Creator and creation. Jesus is in the first category and he is no creation.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/20/2010 17:28 pm

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” (1Peter 1:3)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/20/2010 09:54 am

Candace,

Perhaps you should tell us all what you think these words mean. To me, “begotten” means the day the eternal Son of God became a man.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/20/2010 05:58 am

Doesn’t anyone know what “begotten” means???? As in “THIS DAY I/Yahweh have begotten you/the Christ, the Anointed One”. No one seems to know what “anointed one” means either????

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/20/2010 01:15 am

Which doesn’t prove preexistence either it is a implicite statement. Scott he didn’t become a man he was created as a man.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/19/2010 23:21 pm

Sorry Mark, it doesn’t “prove” your point at all. It only proves that the Son of God declared who the Father is by becoming a man.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/19/2010 21:57 pm

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only beggoten Son who is in the bossom of the father, He declares Him. Great verse proves that the father had a son which proves he didn’t have a son before his begetting. Which proves agian Jesus was a created son who is not God but the son of the one and only God Yahweh. “Sweet”

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/19/2010 21:25 pm

I have offered my comments as to the interpretation of the verse. Yes, the answer could be ‘None’as held by Franklin. Yes, God didn’t call any angel as the Son. But he did that in the Case of the Son. It is quite natrual to do so, for Jesus is the Son of God. Though He was made little lower (In the form of man)than the angels, but has been exalted above all to the rightful place where he was before. As the Son of God, he is more than any angel, he is not at all of their category. He is God, so say God the Father, not me.

I have offered my comments on the basis of the Scriptures, much earlier than the Nicean Council’s creed. Why go to it?

To me the Gospel of John alone is sufficent to prove that Jesus is God. Tha is what he was set out to do from its very first chapter. Some people contends the text of 1 John 5:7 as not being the earliest available MSS, But then they do not conginziance of John 1:18, where as per the earilest available MSS,it says that the Son is God!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/19/2010 20:12 pm

I ask did the council of nicean talk about the divinity of Jesus or nought? Did this happen or is it a conspiracy? Was Jesus God before 325 ad. If not what was he. Why did it take 300 greek years after his death to discover his divinity? Did Jesus think he was God? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/18/2010 05:29 am

Well, if you take the verse in an isolated manner, the answer may be ‘None’. The flow of the argument does not, however stop here; it goes further.One has to see the context for a full import of the meaning. The answer cannot be ‘None,’for the verse 8 takes the flow further: “BUT unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.” So the verse clearly means that it is to the Son, and only to the Son, and not to the angels, God says,”Thou art my Son”. And to Him whoM God has called as the Son, he addresses him as God! This is the clear meaning of the verse and of this sripture portion!Of the pre-existent of the Son, one has to read verses 10-13. Again, if you interpret Hebrew 1:5 the way you have done, how would you interpret verse 13? For there are other scriptures that tells that God has said to the Son to sit on god’s right hand until god makes His (Son) enemies His foot-stool!Why twist the scripture to prove your point?

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/18/2010 00:33 am

To answer the questions posed in Hebrews 1:5: …

For unto which of the malakim (”angels” - Heavenly messengers) said He at any time, “You are my SON, at this time I have I begotten you?” And again, “I will be to him a FATHER, and he shall be to me a SON.”?

… I believe that the answer would be none of them, since Yahshua did not pre-exist with Father Yahweh in the beginning as a malakim (”angel” - Heavenly messenger) or a spirit being or as a son as many falsely teach.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

“Jesus IS God!”?
http://freewebs.com/frank4yahweh

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/17/2010 17:59 pm

Jayant Christian,

You said:

“But John 12:37-41, and particularly verse 41, read with Isaiah 6:1,5 makes it abundantly clear that even Jesus is Yahweh! Jesus is Yahshua-Yah is Savior and there is not Savior beside God!”

Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach “Jesus is Yahweh!”. Reading “John 12:37-41, and particularly verse 41, read with Isaiah 6:1,5″ does not make it “abundantly clear that even Jesus is Yahweh!” Nowhere in Scripture are we ever asked to believe and confess such a foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine as this. What we are asked to confess and believe is that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh (”God”). We know for a fact that Yahweh is Yahshua’s “FATHER”, since he is frequently recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as referring to Him as “FATHER” and FATHER Yahweh has also referred to Yahshua as His “SON”. Yahshua plainly stated “All power (authority) is GIVEN unto me in Heaven and in Earth.” One can only conclude from the context of Scripture as a whole that Yahshua did not have “All power (authority)” before it was GIVEN to him and that it was most certainly his and our FATHER Yahweh that GAVE him “ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth. Since FATHER Yahweh GAVE His SON Yahshua ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth, this “ALL power (authority)” most certainly included the power (authority) to forgive mankind of sin and redeem mankind from death.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

“Jesus IS God!”?
http://frank4yahweh.webs.com

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/17/2010 17:39 pm

Scott Dale,

Well, It was my understanding that we were speaking of whether Yahshua pre-existed as an actual being with Father Yahweh in the beginning with the ability to create and that this is what you were attempting to imply. See your posts at: #186 and #200 for example. If you do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed as an actual being with the ability to create with Father Yahweh in the beginning, then please do feel free to explain to us what you believe he pre-existed as. You seem to be only side-stepping the issue at hand that we are discussing in an attempt to confuse. Speaking for myself, I am not as stupid as you may think that I am.

I never put words in your mouth or took your words out of context. I simply stated “Adam did not pre-exist as a living breathing human soul (being) in the Earth.” I in no way quoted you in saying this. Did I say that you said this or did I place this statement of MINE in quotation marks as if you had said this? Certainly not!

You say “Adam “pre-existed” in the earth the SAME way that Levi “pre-existed” in Abraham according to Hebrews 7:10.” Please do explain to us how this is “germaine” (correctly spelled ‘germane’ Germaine is a female given name.) to this discussion of Yahshua pre-existing as a being with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning and what it has to do with me pre-existing in the loins of my father before I were born. ???? I will have you know, the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic “pre-existence of Yahshua” doctrine has nothing to do with him pre-existing as a seed in Father Yahweh’s lions.

You still seem to me as a dog chasing its own tail or a fool grabbing at straws from a straw man! LOL!

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

“Jesus IS God!”?
http://freewebs.com/frank4yahweh

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/17/2010 16:49 pm

LOL! @ Jason W. Elder to his post #221!

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/17/2010 16:49 pm

Mark,

If that’s a serious question, perhaps you should re-phrase it and I’ll see what I can do with it; but, I think it’s not intended to be serious because you know that I don’t believe in your “either/or” assumption. Please be careful not to be trite with the glorious things of God.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/16/2010 23:31 pm

Scott, was Jesus created at his birth or was he on the sidelines in heaven waiting to get into the game and show his worthyness? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/16/2010 17:14 pm

“The Germans got nothin to do wit it!” Buford T. Justice

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/16/2010 14:12 pm

“Adam did not pre-exist as a living breathing human soul (being) in the Earth.”

Franklin,

See how you are?! You try to put words in my mouth. I’m not grasping at straws but you’re sure trying to make it look that way. First, you take my words OUT of context and then you try to ADD to my words. Where did I ever say that Adam pre-existed as a living breathing human being? You twist words to suit your fancy. Either you don’t understand what I’ve been saying or you do understand but have no adequate response. I think it’s the latter.

I said that Adam “pre-existed” in the earth the SAME way that Levi “pre-existed” in Abraham according to Hebrews 7:10. One version even says that Levi was yet “in the LOINS” of his father Abraham. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Or is it too troublesome for your doctrine? Were you not also in the loins of your father before you were born?

You say; “You simply need to come to a better understanding of what it truly means to be a living breathing human being.”

I say; “No I don’t.” That is simply not germaine to this discussion so why even bring it up? Whether one is a “living breathing human being” or whether one is simply a seed within a seed within a seed matters very little regarding that fact of existence. Whether I’m part of one undeveloped cell or I’m a full grown adult matters not in God’s economy. To Him, I exist! In that same sense; to God, Levi existed even before Jacob was born.

It seems to me, the way you keep making references to your web page, that you are so programmed in your thinking that you cannot entertain a new thought. I think YOU need to come to a “better understanding” of what Jesus meant when He said “I am IN the Father”.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/16/2010 05:03 am

Scott Dale,

Now you are grabbing at straws from a straw man! LOL!

Adam did not pre-exist as a living breathing human soul (being) in the Earth.

And Yahweh formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (Adam) BECAME a living being.

Adam had no pre-existence as a living breathing human being in the Earth. Yahweh had to breath into him the breath of life and it was then that he became a living breathing huMAN being. Read other translations of this verse for a better understanding of what is being meant:

http://bible.cc/genesis/2-7.htm

Nowhere in Hebrews 7:8-10 does it SAY “Levi pre-existed.”. He was not a living breathing human being in Abraham. Just like a seed is not yet a plant. You simply need to come to a better understanding of what it truly means to be a living breathing human being. Scripture clearly and simply teaches that Father Yahweh spoke and what He proposed to be created came into being. I certainly do not profess to understand how He did this!

Did Yahshua Create OR Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

“Jesus IS God!”?
http://frank4yahweh.webs.com

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/15/2010 23:24 pm

Franklin,

Is this how you interpret the scriptures as well? You’ve isolated one thing I’ve said and removed it from the broader context so you can make a flimsy point!

We have ALL “pre-existed” in the very SAME way that Hebrews 7:8-10 says that Levi “pre-existed”. If you don’t understand the clear meaning of the text; I don’t know what to tell you. But please try and stick to the context because I can see you are tempted to distort it. (In fact, I pretty much anticipated that SOMEONE would).

If you or Mark are going to try and suggest each individual “comes into existence [where no one existed before]” AS IF we come out of thin air.., then good luck! Even Adam “pre-existed” in the earth itself.

The simple point of all this is that Jesus was always in the Father JUST LIKE Levi was always in Abraham; JUST LIKE Adam was always in the Earth. Now, you guys are smart enough to know that Abraham and the Earth were CREATED. The Father wasn’t. I’ll leave it to you to figure out just HOW LONG Jesus had been “in the Father” before he was ever born on the Earth.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/15/2010 22:08 pm

Scott Dale,

You said:

“In other words: NOTHING comes into existence that has not already existed!”

Talking about being “dreadfully faulty and incomplete”! …

Is it your belief that all of us existed before we came into existence, we always existed or that all of us pre-existed our birth?

Seems to me we have a dog chasing his own tail here!

Scripture clearly teaches that Yahshua had the same origin as all men and we certainly did not pre-exist our birth!

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

“Jesus IS God!”?
http://freewebs.com/frank4yahweh

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/15/2010 18:33 pm

“Scott, will you concede any point on this subject from Candace, FRanklin or myself?”

Mark,

If I’m to concede anything, it will have to come by the authority of the scriptures. I will concede your point about many churches not teaching biblical doctrine. But even your remark about the sperm and the egg has me scratching my head. I’m not sure what point you’re attempting to make but you statemnt that says:

“Something then comes into existence that didn’t exist before. Is this a unreasonable position?”

If you are attempting to suggest that this kind of logic proves that Jesus did not exist before he became a man; I suggest that it IS an “unreasonable position”. Have you never read Hebrews 7:8-10?

“In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi WAS STILL IN THE BODY OF HIS ANCESTOR (Abraham).”

In other words: NOTHING comes into existence that has not already existed!

The apple you pick from a tree existed thousands of years before you ever picked it. It existed in the lineage of the tree from which it came. It did not come out of thin air. Levi was IN his father Abraham before he was ever born. Jesus was eternally IN the Father before he was ever born on the earth. And if you will endeavor to understand this: Kind produces kind.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/14/2010 20:25 pm

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son (WHERE’S THE FATHER HERE?), and shall call his name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14)

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.” (Acts 13:41)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/14/2010 19:57 pm

Scott, will you concede any point on this subject from Candace, FRanklin or myself? Can you understand that the churches don’t teach the doctrine of the bible and can’t be defended. Common sense and rational say that if you have a father and a son there has to be a mother and something comes into existence after the sperm and the egg come together. Something then comes into existence that didn’t exist before. Is this a unreasonable position? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/14/2010 16:42 pm

“How could the Christ inhert all things if he created them? He would therefore already posses them. One can’t take ownership of something he already owns. One can’t posses something he already posses.”

Mark,

If this is the rationale that drives you to believe as you do, it is dreadfully faulty and incomplete. Do you not realize that the entire creation was GIVEN by God to Adam as his own possession? It no longer belonged to God! There were no strings attached. If it were to ever be returned to man; a MAN himself would have to get it back. You and your friends have some very fatal flaws in your understanding.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/14/2010 14:42 pm

Hi! Mark. Would love to attend that seminar if at all possible???? Can’t agree w/ you more! Yahweh/Father God has given him/Yahshua His name, His Kingdom, His glory & his inheritance & we are joint heirs w/ him/Christ. I don’t understand how Yahshua/Jesus can be God Almighty & be an heir to “all things” to???? Rev 1:1-3 says:”…. in these Last Days has spoken to us in His/Yahweh Son Whom He/Yahweh appointed heir to all things, “through” whom He/Yahweh made all things.” Looks like Yahweh/God is greater than Yahshua & He/Yahweh has “given” His Son all things. Even to the rasing him?Yahshua fromthe dead. Acts 13:34 “as for the fact that He/Yahweh rasied him from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He/Yahweh has spoken “I will give you/Yahshua the Holy & Sure Blessings of David.” God Bless you, Mark.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/14/2010 07:51 am

Welcome back every one,hold your breath for another three weeks as we go thru the winter soltice…The Anouncement for the 10 anual NATURE OF GOD SEMINAR will be in May in Pasadena Cal. looks like weekend of the MAY 28-29 looks like it will be the most thorough and comprehendsive yet.This is and will continue to be a good forum to give and take those with inquisitvie minds that are not happy with mans interpetations of who and what makes GOD, but look to the bible for there answers. What ever side of the Nature of God you come down on wheater it be 1-2-3 Gods you will take away an awareness of other points of view. Where there is a father you will find a mother Mary in this case and she had a baby and we all agree that that baby was and is the baby the messiah the son born to the living Yahweh.How could the Christ inhert all things if he created them? He would therefore already posses them. One can’t take ownership of something he already owns. One can’t posses something he already posses.It would then be just a Masquerade are we really happy here?

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/14/2010 07:17 am

But John 12:37-41, and particularly verse 41, read with Isaiah 6:1,5 makes it abundantly clear that even Jesus is Yahweh! Jesus is Yahshua-Yah is Savior and there is not Savior beside God!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/14/2010 06:49 am

Candace S. & Mark,

Thank you for your kind words of support in this matter and all praise be to Father Yahweh through His son Yahshua. I am so glad that you have found the studies that I have compiled on my web pages of use.

Again, ALL praise and esteem be to Father Yahweh by way of His son Yahshua. HalleluYAHWEH!

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 19:37 pm

Franklin…
Amen & Amen! Beautifully presented & to anyone who really desires “TRUTH” over traditions of men, may freely partake.
What I have spent years extracting from volumes of false doctrine to present to those desperately seeking to understand, you have made very available on your website. I can’t thank you enough for that effort & the wealth of it.
Scott….if you “really” want to know the truth, it is certainly available to you through Franklin’s website he’s so freely shared. But first you must be willing to be humble & have a teachable spirit. I pray for you daily that you will cast off centuries of bogus doctrine & embrace fully the “ONLY Begotten Son of God”. “Neither is there salvation in NONE other”. To believe that Yahshua ha Mashiach is God is to have a false Christ(antichrist). Yahweh ALONE is the ONE True God & Father.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 18:43 pm

Scott, do you find fault in Franklins 206 post, please show his folly so we can understand your interpetation of this same passage?

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 18:34 pm

Scott Dale,

Since you have not taken my suggestion to consider the studies on my web pages, I figured I would bring these studies to you here instead. You can erroneously believe that Yahshua was not in Father Yahweh’s plan from the foundation of the world all you want, but that does not change what He has revealed in His word to His people.

“The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
Yahchanan [John] 17:5

Do these words mean that Yahshua was personally with the Father from the very beginning or are they expressive of the fact that Yahweh, as a wise Architect (Hebrews 11:10), foresaw the glory of His completed plan?

The latter without doubt! This is shown beyond question because of the use of similar language in the same manner.

Thus Kepha taught that Yahshua was “foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifested (made known) in these last times for you” (1 Kepha [Peter] 1:20). Yahchanan [John] describes him as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8).

Was Yahshua “slain from the foundation of the world”? Typically, yes, in the sacrifices provided; but literally, no.

In like manner, Yahweh, who knows the end from the beginning, foresaw the glory of His son Yahshua and proclaimed it through the prophets. The ultimate glory of Yahshua was in the mind and purpose of the Father from the very beginning.

He also provided for the ultimate glory of Messiah’s followers, so that Yahshua prayed:

“The glory which You gave me, I have given them” (Yahchanan [John] 17:22).

Do Messiah’s followers possess his glory now? They do not, they are merely “in hope” of it (cf. Romans 5:2).

How can Yahshua then claim to have given it to them? Only in the sense that he has provisionally bestowed it, foreknowing that they to whom it is given in promise will fulfil the conditions to ultimately receive it in reality.

Thus, an accepted follower at Yahshua’s coming could well speak to Yahweh as Yahshua prayed to the Father:

“Glorify You me with the glory that I had (in promise) with You before world began!”

Yahweh foreknows the completed purpose, and knowing that He will bring it to consummation, is able to “call those things which be not as though they are” (Romans 4:17). Shaul taught:

“Yahweh chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, without blame before Him” (Eph. 1:4).

If John 17:5 proves the pre-existence of Yahshua, Ephesians 1:4 must prove the pre-existence of all who are followers of him!

The same language is used of other men whom Yahweh has used in a special way. Of Yeremiah it is written:

“Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations” (Yeremiah 1:5).

Does that prove the pre-existence of Yeremiah? If not, why should Yahchanan [John] 17:5 be used to teach the pre-existence of Yahshua, and so be made to conflict with many other references which speak of him as the son of David born 1900 years ago? Similar language is used of Shaul (Galatians 1:15) and others. When Yahshua returns, his accepted followers will be granted a glory similar to that bestowed upon him. They will be “conformed to the image of Father Yahweh’s son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Romans 8:29).

EXCERPT FROM: http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/BeforeTheWorldWas.html

Yahshua’s Glory Before the Foundation of the World
Does This Mean He Pre-existed?
By Voy Wilks
2/4/89

“And now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made” (Jn. 17:5 RSV).

“Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the the foundation of the world” (Jn. 17:24).

It is clear that Yahweh the Supreme Being planned to send a Savior, so in this sense Yahshua pre-existed before the world was made - in Yahweh’s plan. Did Yahshua pre-exist bodily, as a Deity, before the world was made?

First we must never forget that Yahweh was alone in creating the earth - the universe. No other Mighty One, no other Deity, was with him. He alone created everything. This was still true in the days of Isaiah the Prophet. Yahweh alone (the Supreme Being) was the only El, the only Eloah, the only true Elohim and the only Yahweh who existed at that time (Isa. 37:16; 40:12-31; 42:5-8; 43:1-15; 44:6; 44:24; 45:5-18; 46:5-9; 48:9-13; 51:12-16). There was no others (Mk. 12:29-33). All through the O.T. this is the song of the prophets and the saints. The N.T. message must agree with this, for the N.T. relies on the O.T. for its life, its very being. In view of this, and the Scripture references by Isaiah the Prophet (noted above), let us examine other N.T. Scriptures which are very similar to Jn. 17:5,24.

“He [the Messiah] was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of times for your sake” (1 Peter. 1:20 RSV).

The KJV states this more impressively, if possible, than does the RSV. The message is, before the foundation of the world, Yahweh destined (planned) that a Savior would come, but it was only in Peter’s day that he was made manifest to men. In what way was he manifested? In flesh and blood (verse 19). The fact that he “was made manifest” only in Peter’s day is an indication that he did not exist (except in plan) before the earth was made, and certainly not as Deity; not the El or the Yahweh who spoke to the Prophets of old (Heb. 1:1). Notice another Scripture, please.

“… and they that dwell on earth shall wonder, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, …” (Rev. 17:8).

“… and all who dwell on earth shall worship [the beast], every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain” (Rev. 13:8 RSV).

Here we see that the saints were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Does this mean the saints had a pre-existence? Did the saints live as deity before the earth was made? No. What happened is, before the earth was made, Yahweh created the book of life and planned that some would (eventually) be recorded there, by individual names. In the same way, he planned for a Savior, even before the world was made. But the KJV reads a little differently in Rev. 13:8.

“And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8 KJV).

This indicates Yahshua the Lamb was “slain before” the earth was made. Did this happen? No, but it was in Yahweh’s plan before the world was made to send a Redeemer who would be slain for the sins of men, as Scripture reveals:

“But when the fullness of time was come, Yahweh sent forth his Son, MADE of a woman made under the law, to redeem them that are under the law, …” (Gal. 4:4,5).

“The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Soon after creation, Adam and Eve transgressed, so Yahweh slew an animal and made clothing for them. From what? Probably a lamb, a sheep. Allegorically then, Yahshua (the Lamb) was slain from the foundation of the world, a sacrifice; “… without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (Heb. 9:22). Let us compare other (and similar) Scriptures.

“Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Mt. 25:34).

“That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation” (Lk. 11:50). Abel must have been the first.

“For we are his workmanship, created in Yahshua Messiah unto good works, which Yahweh hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10).

“For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although his works were finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3).

“Blessed be the Elohim and Father of our Savior Yahshua Messiah, who has blessed us in heavenly places, even as he CHOSE US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined US in love to be his sons through Yahshua Messiah, according the the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according the the riches of his grace which is lavished upon us. For he was made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in the Messiah as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him according to his purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the council of his will, we who first hoped in Messiah have been DESTINED and appointed to live for the praise of his glory” (Eph. 1:3-12 RSV).

Obviously, you and I did not have a pre-existence before the world was made except in Yahweh’s plan. This was true also of Yahshua Messiah. Just as Yahweh planned (destined) some (us, you and I) to eventually become sons, even before the world was made, so he planned for a Savior (a Redeemer) to appear “in the fullness of time,” to save those who “live for the praise of his glory.”

Note: This is not to say we do not have a choice. Certainly we do have a choice, just as Israel had a choice. “… I set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, loving Yahweh your Elohim, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him, for that means life to you …” (Deut. 30:19,20).

Conclusion

The Apostle Paul wrote that Yahweh “… calleth those witch thing be not as though they were” (Rom. 4:17B). He uses Abraham as an example: “I have made thee a father of many nations” This was even before Abraham (Rom. 4:17A from Gen. 17:5). This was even before Abraham fathered his son Isaac. Once Yahweh plans something, it is certain to happen, so he sometimes speaks of it as if it has already come to pass. This is true of the glory which Yahweh planned of his Son Yahshua, and for you and me, if we choose life. He chose us before the foundation of the world. This being true, Jn. 17:5, 24 does not promote the pre-existence. The Redeemer received Yahweh’s glory by being in his glorious plan to be accomplished in future centuries. Therefore, Yahshua as Redeemer looked forward to enjoying this glorious face to face with the Father (”in thy own presence” Jn. 17:5) which he had in Yahweh’s plans before the world existed. We too, were chosen and destined “before the foundation of the world.”

Does Hebrews 1:1-2; Colossians 1:16-17 & John 1:10 Say That Yahshua Was Involved in the Creation of the World?

Please note how these passages are translated in the Emphatic Diaglott Greek Interlinear.

Diaglott, Hebrews 1:1-2
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts and in many ways long ago the God having spoken to the fathers by the prophets, in last of the days of these spoke to us by a son,

Hebrews 1:2 whom he appointed an heir of all things, (on account of whom also the ages he made,)

Diaglott, Colossians 1:16-17

Colossians 1:16 because in him were created the things all, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones, or lordships, or governments, or authorities; the things all on account of him and for him have been created;

Colossians 1:17 and he is in advance of all, and the things all in him has been placed together;

Diaglott, John 1:10

John 1:10 In the world he was, and the world through him was, and the world him not knew.

The Greek word di’ or dia which is translated ‘by’ in the A.K.J.V. and ‘through’ in the R.S.V. in Hebrews 1:2 is translated ‘on account of’ in the Emphatic Diaglott.

This changes the meaning of this passage of Hebrews 1:1-2 considerably from how the K.J.V. and the A.S.V. translates. It does not say that Yahshua was involved in the creation of the world, but that the world was created “on account of” of him. This translation brings Hebrews 1:2 in harmony with the entire context of Scripture, in that it was Father Yahweh Who created the heavens and the earth ALONE (cf. Psalm 121:1, 33:6-9; Isayah 44:24) . Following is how the K.J.V. and the R.S.V. translates Hebrews 1:2.

K.J.V., Hebrews 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

R.S.V., Hebrews 1:2

but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Now, I ask you, are you going to ignore the entire context of Scripture where it is said that Father Yahweh ALONE created the heavens and the earth for how a translator may have translated a word in a few passages?

Even Yahshua himself credited Father Yahweh for the creation of Adam and Eve, not even so much as mentioning that he had any hand in creating them.

Have you not read, that He Who made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, (Matthew 19:4; Genesis 1:27).

Yahshua surely had an involvement in the creation of the heavens and the earth in that Father Yahweh had him in mind, but he had no hand in the actual creation in the beginning. He was not a “co-creator” with Father Yahweh in the beginning as many deceptively teach. He did not even “pre-exist” with Father Yahweh, nor was he Father Yahweh. Yahshua was Father Yahweh’s son as Scripture teaches.

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 17:28 pm

Scott Dale,

You said:

“…you go so far as to CHANGE what Jesus said by ADDING to the text. Where does it say “before the world began IN HIS PLAN”??”

No, I never changed what Yahshua said. It is you who have twisted my words. Where is it that I said that Yahshua said what you have placed into quotation marks as if I had said this:

“before the world began IN HIS PLAN”

You can not quote me saying this in any of my posts. What I said is as follows:

Nowhere is he ever recorded as proclaiming that he “existed” with Father Yahweh before the world began, but he certainly had esteem (”glory”) with Father Yahweh before the world began in His plan.

Nowhere in the above am I ever quoting Yahshua or adding to his words. These are MY WORDS of explanation and are not a quote of what Yahshua said.

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 16:44 pm

(continued) make them up by twisting scripture.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 05:37 am

Franklin,

You may “stand with what I had posted” but you are standing on dreadfully shakey ground. You have deceived your own self quite thoroughly. You seem quite confident to tell us what Jesus DIDN’T say as if that would somehow change the meaning of what he actually DID say. But you don’t stop there, you go so far as to CHANGE what Jesus said by ADDING to the text. Where does it say “before the world began IN HIS PLAN”?? And you reiterate this baseless point in an earlier post:

“Yahshua existed only in thought in his and our Father Yahweh’s plan.”

Where do you get such cockamamie notions? When the Lord said to Job; “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.” Job was smart enough to realize that he had nothing to say. But YOU evidently understand all these things. In fact, you must’ve been privy to the glory that Jesus shared with his father even BEFORE the earth’s foundation was laid. How else would you know these things? There’s only one other way, and that’s to

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 05:33 am

Yahshua Had The Same Origin As All Men

“For it was fitting that he [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make [
Yahshua] the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim thy name [Yahweh’s name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee” (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV).

Do I detect here a statement showing that Yahshua had the same origin as other men? I believe so. About half of the English versions read this way. The word “origin” is not in the Greek, but is implied evidently. This agrees with other statements made in the verses below.

The children (mankind) share in flesh and blood. Yahshua is likewise of the same nature. This was so he could free his brethern who through fear of death were (are) in lifelong bondage (Heb. 2:14,15).

It is not with angels that Yahweh is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham, therefore he (Yahshua) had to be made like his brethern IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful high priest (Heb. 2:16,17). Another Scripture speaking of Yahshua, reveals that the spiritual body does not come first (as in a pre-existence). No. The PHYSICAL body comes FIRST, and only later comes the SPIRITUAL body (1 Cor. 15:45,46).

He was tempted in everything as we are (Heb. 2:18). If Yahshua had been Deity while on earth, he would have had no temptations.

Yahshua was even more faithful in Yahweh’s house than Moses was. Every house has a builder. The builder of all things is Yahweh (Heb.3:1-6). To understand all of the book of Hebrews requires careful study.

The one who wrote it admits it is difficult to understand (Heb. 5:11).

EXCERPT FROM: http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 01:45 am

Scott Dale,

I stand with what I had posted:

Yahshua makes no mention, that he thought or believed that he existed before the world began, since the statement he made clearly is in reference to his esteem (”glory”) that he had with his and our Father before the world began, not to his existing with Father Yahweh before the world began. If he were saying this he would have said:

‘And now, Father, bring me into existence You me in Your own presence with the existence which I had with You before the world began.’

Again, he makes no mention in his original statement of “pre-existing” with Father Yahweh before the world began. Nowhere is he ever recorded as proclaiming that he “existed” with Father Yahweh before the world began, but he certainly had esteem (”glory”) with Father Yahweh before the world began in His plan. Yahshua had the same origin as all men and mankind as a whole certainly did not pre-exist their birth.

I would suggest that you see the study on my web page at: http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/BeforeTheWorldWas.html and the related links at the bottom of this page for a better understanding of what it is that I believe.

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/2/2010 23:42 pm

Franklin,

I DON’T believe they are mis-translations. I posted as I did because according to your post #194, they MUST be mistranslations because YOUR interpretation of the verse is diametrically opposed to them.

You and Candace, obviously share the same heretical hermeneutic to come up with the bizarre interpretations that you do.

Referring to John 17:5 You said:

“Yahshua makes no mention.., that he thought or believed that he existed before the world began.”

Excuse me?!! 26 Versions disagree with you! But then you provide the most LAME example of a husband and wife sharing “esteem” for the child they HOPE to have someday. What NONSENSE! What part of “WITH you BEFORE the world began” don’t you understand?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/2/2010 22:24 pm

Jason…I respect that you have addressed your comment to Mark & I’m sure he willl reply but I’m asking…what about Jn 14:verse 10-14???? Why did you stop at vs 9???? These verses show Yahshua as subservient to the Father….not the same as.

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/2/2010 21:33 pm

Scott Dale,

Why do you feel that the 26 versions that you have presented are all mistranslations?

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/2/2010 21:24 pm

Mark, Before “LoL” my last post contained only Scripture. John 14:8-9 to be exact. Do you consider Scripture “tradition?”

The post before that was (Gen 22:8) to which the only thing I added was “And Abraham wasn’t lying!”

You need to think outside your cult’s box and come to grips with reality that Jesus is God.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/2/2010 19:16 pm

Franklin….I have totally enjoyed your website! What an incredible collection of concise & in-depth teaching. I labor long & hard for studies to print out for our flock & this is more than I could ever ask for. I thank you again & for my husband & myself, it’s an anwser to many years of intercession to see others are finally coming out of the 4th century doctrines, creeds & traditions of men. I am overcome w/ thanksgiving. Candace

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/2/2010 05:59 am

Franklin,

Please explain to everyone why the following 26 versions have all mis-translated John 17:5. For some reason, they all say; “WITH YOU” or stranger still; “IN YOUR PRESENCE”. Why is that??:

New International Version
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had WITH YOU before the world began.

American Standard Version
And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had WITH THEE before the world was.

Bible in Basic English
And now, Father, let me have glory with you, even that glory which I had WITH YOU before the world was.

Complete Jewish Bible
Now, Father, glorify me alongside yourself. Give me the same glory I had WITH YOU before the world existed.

Douay-Rheims
And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, WITH THEE.

English Standard Version
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had WITH YOU before the world existed.

GOD’S WORD Translation
Now, Father, give me glory in your presence with the glory I had WITH YOU before the world existed.

Good News Translation
Father! Give me glory in your presence now, the same glory I had WITH YOU before the world was made.

Hebrew Names Version
Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had WITH YOU before the world existed.

Holman Christian Standard
Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had WITH YOU before the world existed.

King James Version
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had WITH THEE before the world was .

New American Standard
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had WITH YOU before the world was.

New Century Version
And now, Father, give me glory with you; give me the glory I had WITH YOU before the world was made.

New International Reader’s Version
So now, Father, give glory to me in heaven where your throne is. Give me the glory I had WITH YOU before the world began.

New King James Version
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had WITH YOU before the world was.

New Living Translation
And now, Father, bring me into the glory WE SHARED before the world began.

New Revised Standard
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had IN YOUR PRESENCE before the world existed.

Revised Standard Version
and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had WITH THEE before the world was made.

The Darby Translation
and now glorify *me*, *thou* Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had ALONG WITH THEE before the world was.

The Message
And now, Father, glorify me with your very own splendor, The very splendor I had IN YOUR PRESENCE before there was a world.

The Webster Bible
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thy ownself, with the glory which I had WITH THEE before the world was.

Third Millennium Bible
And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had WITH THEE before the world was.

Today’s New International Version
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had WITH YOU before the world began.

Weymouth New Testament
And now, Father, do Thou glorify me in Thine own presence, with the glory that I had IN THY PRESENCE before the world existed.

World English Bible
Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had WITH YOU before the world existed.

Young’s Literal Translation
`And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, WITH THEE;

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/2/2010 05:42 am

Scott Dale,

In the following verse that you presented, Yahshua speaks of the esteem (”glory”) he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world was, not that he pre-existed his birth or that he was a co-creator with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. Yahshua makes no mention or suggest in his communication (”prayer”) with his and our Father Yahweh that he thought or believed that he existed before the world began. Yahshua existed only in thought in his and our Father Yahweh’s plan. For example, let’s say you had a wife and that you and your wife planned to have a child, would not you and your wife both have esteem for such a child before that child was born? To come into a better understanding of what it is that I do believe concerning this matter, I would suggest that you see my web page at: http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html .

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the GLORY [ESTEEM] (NOT “pre-existence as a being!) which I had with thee before the world was.” Jn 17:5

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/1/2010 19:35 pm

Jason? Are you in this post to save us or exchange possibilities from our tradition. Does tradition trump biblical fact, in your view? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/1/2010 18:29 pm

LoL

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/1/2010 11:48 am

Candace,

Your last two posts are so utterly absurd. Your exegesis is pathetic! It’s no wonder you believe as you do; yet you claim to have come “into the fullness of knowledge”!

You’ve come “into” something alright, but no rational person would call it “knowledge”.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/30/2010 23:20 pm

Jason…..all the “Fullness” of Deity was pleased to dwell in him/Christ.(Col 1:19)

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/30/2010 20:47 pm

Welcome aboard Franklin! What a pleasure to hear from another who has come into full knowledge of the “Son” of God. Eph 4:13 “until we all come into the knowledge of The Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure & stature of Christ.”
We too are to become just like our Pattern/Christ. Not God but sons.
Yahshua “never” prayed a “silly” or meaningless prayer….every prayer was raised to the Father to acknowledge His greatness over the Son (JN 14:28)& for our admonition.
By putting God in one’s religious box some have missed His unfathomable dynamic! Yahweh is not restrained by our passage of time. He is so outside the box of time that we must live & die in. All of creation & every experience, from beginning to end, is rolled out like a great scroll before Him. Yahshua had ALL God’s glory before he was ever born to a virgin here on earth as the Son of man. He was “foreordained” before the foundation of the world & was the very “Word” of God “made” flesh when the fullness of time had come. Gal 4:4 Thus….Yahshua could “pray” w/ confidence that he would indeed receive the fullness of that glory the Father had been holding for Him from before the world began. Yahshua than gave us that “same” glory the Father had given him.(Jn 17:22).
Are we walking in it yet…..no. Will we….YOU BET WE WILL! As we “make” ourselves ready as that glorious Bride w/out spot or wrinkle or any such thing…that God may present us to His Son, a Glorious Bride.(2 Cor 11:2)

If Ro 8:29 is true than we pre-existed too….”for whom He foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren.”

By Candace S. (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/30/2010 20:40 pm

“Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the FATHER, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, HAVE I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” (John 14:8-9)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/30/2010 19:09 pm

Right on Franklin, the old testament etablishes the law and the prophets and Jesus say in Matt 5 that he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets. No one was expecting God in the flesh. The bible was translated by alot of trinitarians and the new testament is full of alter text..Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/30/2010 16:09 pm

Franklin,

In the “account where Yahshua communicated (prayed) to his and our Father Yahweh IN HEAVEN when he himself was here ON EARTH (or “IN THE WORLD”)” how is it that the 33 year old Yahshua could make such a silly request (prayer) as the following:

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Jn 17:5

I agree, Yahshua was not schizophrenic; but according to your doctrine, he would have to be delusional to think that he existed before the world began.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/29/2010 20:29 pm

Peace greetings (Shalom) ALL,

I also to not espouse to the doctrine “Yahshua (’Jesus’) IS Yahweh (’God’)”. I was taught the doctrine “Jesus IS God!” as a child raised in a Christian religion of my mother and I was baptized into this religion at the age of 12. I am now going on 58. I have since come out from among such foolish teachings as these. Later on in my life I started doing an independent reading and studying of Scripture and discovered that many of the teachings that I had been taught in the Christian religion are not taught in Scripture. I never have understood why people believed such foolishness as “Jesus IS God!”, since nowhere in Scripture from where we are to get our doctrine for reproof and correction can you ever find it said “Jesus IS God!”, “God the Son” or “Deity of Jesus Christ”. You also will not find it recorded in the so-called “New Testament” Yahshua (”Jesus”) proclaiming or saying “I am God!”. I used to say that there is no translation that makes such foolish statements as these, but I soon discovered that someone has devised a translation that makes such foolish statements based on the word translated as “Lord” in our English language. The term “Lord” does not always refer to Father Yahweh in most translations. I simply envision from reading the so-called “New Testament” account where Yahshua communicated (prayed) to his and our Father Yahweh IN HEAVEN when he himself was here ON EARTH (or “IN THE WORLD”) and can only conclude that he was not a schizophrenic who was speaking to himself. Yahshua is frequently recorded as referring to Yahweh our Heavenly Creator as his and our “Father”. Nowhere in the so-called “New Testament” are we ever asked to believe and confess “Jesus IS God!”. We are asked to confess that he is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh (”God”). Not once is Yahshua referred to as “our Father” in the so-called “New Testament”, but he is frequently recorded as given reference to as a son. To give reference to Yahshua as “our Father” is in turn denying his relationship to Yahweh our Creator and to deny the plain statement of Father Yahweh Himself as saying in Hebrews 1:4 “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a son.”

By Franklin Eugene Rhoads (wrote 15 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/29/2010 18:18 pm

Nowhere is the spirit of Christ used in the old testament. We have the spirit ofGod or the spirit of the Lord, but never the spirit of Christ. The spirit of God that can functionupon people is often given or takes on different names as it refers to different functions, but the spirit is still the same spirit of God. When associated with wisdom it is called the spirit of wisdom(Ex 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph1:17)Spirit of Grace! Zech 12:10; heb 10:29. Spirit of Glory 1 Pet.4:14 Spirit of Adoption Rom.8:15 Spirit of sonship spirit of truth. When it came with power upon Elijah it was called the spirit of Elijah” II kings 2:15
When Peter mentions that the spirit of christ was upon the prophets as they mad predictions about Jesus sufferings and the glory to follow, it is easy to see that the wpirit is called the spirit of Christ because it is associated with Christand foretold of Christ , not because Christ was actually alive during the old testament. It is all God’s spirit upon the prophets but in this reference they were speaking of the promised Messiah that Gos would in time (future) cause to appear( via Mary as the NT testifies). It is God who inspired the prophets to speak and he did so via his spirit. Here the subject was Christ and Gpd was revealing the Christ story, the spirit of Christ!

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/13/2010 19:20 pm

Mark,

You’re dancing. I’m not asking you to explain the Spirit that is in us as believers. I’m asking you about the Spirit that was in the OT prophets. Peter says that Spirit was Christ! Your “explanations” don’t explain it at all. How could Peter have made such a monumental “blunder”? Didn’t he know that Jesus was not born before the OT was written?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/10/2010 23:25 pm

The spirit of God is in christ it is not christ and that same spirit is in us through christ our mediator between God and men the man Jesus christ

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/10/2010 18:36 pm

Post #177

Mark,

You answered my question alright; but your answer only served to underscore my point! Should I refute THAT? The Spirit of God is the SAME as the Spirit of Christ. You said this yourself. Now, perhaps YOU would like to try and explain how Peter could say that Christ’s Spirit was IN the OT prophets? Or will you just dance around this a little more ignoring that maybe Peter actually knew what he was talking about?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/10/2010 14:06 pm

“And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.” (Gen 22:8) And Abraham wasn’t lying!

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/10/2010 08:56 am

All of you are making God, His own sacrifice. How unscriptual & blasphemous is that? Is not the Son of God the sacrificial Lamb? Who’s butchering the scriptures here to justify the 4th century, Catholic doctine of the the three headed pagan god?

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/10/2010 06:07 am

are you asking why you’re deviants? lol

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/10/2010 05:50 am

Scott, I answered your I Pet.1:10-11 you never answered my comments and now your asking Candace the same thing I already covered. John 8:58 was brought up and I wrote back so why is it we are devianting?

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/10/2010 04:02 am

Candace,

You sure run yourself in circles trying to nullify the Godhood of Jesus. You said:

“The spirit of Christ is never mentioned in the O.T. because Yahshua/Jesus was not born until “the fullness of time” came & then he was born in Bethlehem to a virgin fulfilling prophecy of Messiah’s coming.”

Evidently, Peter didn’t know what you know! (1 Peter 1:10-11)

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/10/2010 00:00 am

You make much of the Scripture Candace…Until it clashes with your deviant theology.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 23:42 pm

Jayant….your post #168: Acts 20:28 from the standpoint of the earliest manuscripts & in keeping w/ the fact “that scripture can not be broken” i.e . it must have a continuous flow of truth & revelation. i.e. If the bulk of scripture teaches us God is Spirit & can not bleed & can not die than we can be certain of that truth when one scripture seems to say something contrary. If the bulk of scripture teach Jesus is the Son of God & he gave his life & God rasied him from the dead than we can be certain the one or two verses that seem contrary have a logical interpretation when put against the rest. MEANING: the bulk of the manuscripts tell us it was the “Lord’s” blood , the “Son’s” blood, the blood of “Christ” & not God’s blood. A very good study of the this dilemma is at : www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Ac20_28.html

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 22:08 pm

Jayant, Very interesting comment. I’d like to add something here that might be relevant.
1. God IS Spirit & His Spirit IS holy so His Spirit & the Holy Spirit is one in the same.
2. Yahshua/Jesus has his own spirit being human(made like unto his brethren in every way (Heb 2:17) and “the FULLNESS” of God dwelt in him (Col 2:9) So Yahshua had the Spirit of God dwelling in him & we too are invited to “be filled” w/ that same Spirit that we too may do the “same works Yahshua did & greater”.
I’ve yet to see any of us attain to the same level of faith or sinlessness as our Savior. Most of us seem to let the enemy & our carnal nature rule much more than we allow the Spirit of the Living God to have dominion in us. Evenso, many of us are persuing our calling, as a varitable chase until we come “unto the measure & stature of the fullness of Christ.” (Ehp 4) All this to say: we have our human spirit & the Spirit of Yahshua & the Holy Spirit of God abiding in us if we are saved.
Side note: many of us continue to put God in such a limiting box. His Spirit is capable of so much more than our finite minds credit Him with. Such as…..God places His Spirit upon people in many capacities i.e “spirit of wisdom” (Ex 28:3; Deut 34:9; Eph 1:17) Spirit of Grace (Zech 12:10; Heb 10:29) Spirit of Glory (I Pet 4:14) Spirit of Adoption or Sonship (Ro 8:15) Spirit of Truth or Revelation (John 14:17, 16:13) Many operations but the Same Spirit of God. The spirit of Christ is never mentioned in the O.T. because Yahshua/Jesus was not born until “the fullness of time” came & then he was born in Bethlehem to a virgin fulfilling prophecy of Messiah’s coming.

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 21:49 pm

#171 - Good point about the Greek. I believe we have a perfect English translation though-the KJV (That’s a personal conviction). But just through study, I find no errors, no contradictions. “Could” certain things be rendered a different way? Sure. Should they? I don’t believe so.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 20:07 pm

Post# 168:

But the Greek Text is “God…. with His own blood.” There may be a bogus error in translation, but not in the Text!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 16:43 pm

Post # 167:

So how many differnt spirits have we? Our own spirit and Holy Spirit (Roman 8:18), God’s Spirit and the spirit’s of Christ’(Roman 8:9)?! To this may be added the evil spirits as well. If divine is not there evils are sure to be there in number!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 16:40 pm

What about the I am ?

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 14:06 pm

And Jason….God can not bleed Acts 20:28 “which God purchased with the blood of His own Son” Another bogus error in translation. The “Lamb” of God paid the price of our redemption. The Father DID NOT. The Sacrifice (perfect spotless Lamb) was to God! (Passover) IT WAS NOT GOD!

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 06:58 am

God is Spirit. Yahshua has his own spirit: Luke 23:46 “Father,into Your hands I commend my spirit, and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.” (died)
Yahshua has his own will seperate from the Father: Luke 22:42 “not my will but Your will be done.”
Yahshua has a body: Luke 22:19, I Cor 11:24, even after his death, Yahshua still has a body (glorified) Luke 24:39.
God does not have a body: Col 1:15, John 4:24; II Cor 4:4 “the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 06:51 am

So you AGREE that the Spirit of God is the same as the Spirit of Christ!

There’s hope for you yet!

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 05:46 am

The Answer is Gods’ spirit John 14:17 the spirit of truth I Cor:12:3-6 there are diversities of gifts but the same spirit. Eph 4:4 One body and one spirit. John 15:26 the spirit of truth proceeds from the father.John 8:58 verse 40 But you seek to kill me a MAN who has told you the truth which I heard from Yahweh vrs 54 “Of whom you say he is your God”Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad. Abraham knew the the promised messiah would be before him. Read John 7:29 I am from him 6:48 I am the bread of life. John 10 36 because I said , I am the son of GOD John 9:9 I am he Look up all these I am and you will see.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/9/2010 01:04 am

Mark,

1 Peter 1:10-11 says;

“Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ IN THEM was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.”

If Jesus did not exist before his “begetting”, then WHO is this Spirit that predcted these things to the ancient prophets?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/8/2010 23:42 pm

http://yourewrong.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/8/2010 21:39 pm

Hey, here’s a forum. I’ll even let you start your own threads.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/8/2010 21:38 pm

Yeah, the Jews didn’t like that notion either. Jesus told them plainly, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58) That made them so mad they wanted to stone Him

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/8/2010 19:31 pm

Jason, I was trying to point out the obsurdity of Jesus existing some how before his begetting! Acts 17:23-31 He “Yahweh” has fixed a day he will judge in rightousness by a man “Jesus” God will judge thru the man Jesus.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/8/2010 14:44 pm

What makes you think He wasn’t trying to introduce Jesus in Acts 17? When it comes to the second part of your question, I’ll have to pass on answering because I’m not so sure you even know what you’re talking about.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/7/2010 20:16 pm

As we are called by the father we willingfully submit to his law and authority. There is no example of Yahweh ever diminishing himself, for he is not a greek god like Jesus he is the unknown God of Paul who is trying to introduce his Yahweh to a pagon audience. Why wasn’t Paul trying to introduce Jesus? He was introducing the one and only God to them.If Jesus preexisted how did the father eliminate,or kill him, so he could be born again. Did he use a knife, did he sufficate him, or just knock him out. How did he die so he could be born again? Does this mean he died twice?

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/7/2010 18:49 pm

God is omnipotent with unlimited powers and authority. As an omnipotent God,He can limit Himself as well.Yes, God became Man in Jesus Christ.Why to limit God that He cannot make Himself Man?

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/7/2010 16:53 pm

Jason….you’re a kick!

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/7/2010 08:02 am

Good show, Candace!

Your post #150 has such a forceful response that it must mean my last post cut pretty close to the bone! However; your sudden bravado fails to convince me that neither your doctrine nor your sense of security is very sound. I’d say you’re grasping at straws!

Case in point:

It’s quite a stretch to take Numbers 23 and Hosea 11 and conclude that God is saying that He will never become a man. How on earth do you arrive at such a conclusion?? Or are these some of those “tricky” verses that require an intimate knowledge of Hebrew?? You’re only fooling yourself, Candace.

Also:

Do you not know the difference between someone’s personhood and their position?? The President of the US is GREATER than you in his position; but he’s DEFINITELY NOT greater than you in his personhood. You and he are of the very same ESSENCE. Just because Jesus has willfully subjected himself to his father in NO WAY reduces his Personhood of equality with his father. Greatness in position only trumps personal greatness in our fallen; sin-sick world; but never will it do so in the Kingdom of Heaven. The verses you referenced do absolutely nothing to minimize the personal equality that Jesus has with his father.

Another straw that you continue to grasp at is regarding the definition of terms. Just because a word isn’t in the bible doesn’t make it unbiblical. Both you and Mark are smart enough to know this but you seem to trot out this feeble defense whenever your back is against the wall. You define the word “incarnate” rather accurately: “God takes over and possesses a human body for His own use”. The mistake you make is apparently assuming that God “takes over” the body of someone already in existence. Not so, however. Meditate on Hebrews 10; especially verse 5 and you’ll possibly think differently. Perhaps you won’t find the word “incarnate” in these verses but it’s certainly the best word to describe what chapter 10 is talking about.

And please quit with your attempts to invalidate the words “Godhead” or “Trinity” also because they too, though not in the bible, are excellent words to describe what IS in the bible. If you’re going to make a serious attempt to invalidate such words, do so on the merits of what the words MEAN (if you even know) and not on the sophomoric position that they don’t appear in the bible.

Lastly, your repeated attempts to minimize the Godhood of Jesus continue to fall flat. To say that “Yahshua did not raise himself from the dead & he’d still be in the grave if God had not raised him” is such a distortion of scripture. You quote so confidently from Psalms and Acts but conveniently fail to quote from John 10:

“No man taketh it (my life) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down , and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father”.

Regarding your constant quotes referencing Jesus as the “Last Adam”; I ignore them because I agree with you almost totally. But that agreement does not invalidate the Godhood of Jesus, it only validates that he really is a MAN also! Evidently, to your way of thinking, Godhood and humanhood cannot coexist in one person for they are mutually exclusive. But that would be an erroneous conclusion.

Lastly, I will put your victimhood “to bed” when you stop dragging it OUT of bed. Many of your earlier posts drip with the horrible “persecution” and “suffering” you are “enduring” for your beliefs. Save your “poor me” comments; they sound sappy. I expect such things from the hypocrites who need to make sure their sacrifices are seen by men. You ought to be above that. Also, you need to check a few of your “FACTS”.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/7/2010 05:15 am

Not to mention the prophetic utterance of Abraham: “My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering…” (Gen 22:8)

The Bible also exhorts us: “…feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/6/2010 19:50 pm

well, that’d explain the “Only begotten Don (sic)” lol

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/6/2010 19:37 pm

I’m tired & that left my keybroad before I was finished. Nighty night

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/6/2010 07:29 am

Ohm, Jason…Is 43:11 GOD IS OUR SAVIOR!!!!! And His “only begotten Don is His SACRIFICIAL LAMB!

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/6/2010 07:27 am

Oh, Scott will you get off your high horse. If you would look into the the definitions of the unscriptural words you use (not you alone) you’d see how pagan they really are. For instance….”incarnate”. Not in the scriptures anywhere! It is a pagan word meaning: when a god takes over & possesses a human body for his own use. It’s directly connected to “re-incarnation”. Sounds very much like demon possession. “Another” favorite of trinitarians is….Godhead. Another fabricated word. In all legitimate manuscripts available the word should be translated “Deity/God”.
“Where in the bible does it say God can’t be a man?” Num 23:19; Hosea 11:9.
God is not a spotless lamb, God is not a scarifice , God did not die

Scott, you continually refuse the clear scriptural truth that Jesus IS “THE LAST ADAM”. Why do you do that??? Yahshua did not raise himself from the dead & he’d still be in the grave if God had not raised him…Ps 23:19 “for you will not leave my soul in hell, neither will you suffer your Holy One to see corruption.” NKJ Acts 2:27 & Acts 13:35. A definite messianic prophecy about Jesus/Yahshu. I’m not even going to dignify your sophmoric example of using evolution

THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN THE SON! Jn 14:2; I Cor 15:28

And ONCE AND FOR ALL Mr Scott Dale……I do NOT regard myself as A VICTIM!!!! Just stating the FACTS!!! So will you PLEASE put that to bed, you’ve run it into the ground now.

As for your mistranslation of Phil 2:6….I’ve answered that in depth in an earlier post. But for the record….vs 5 sets the context, “having the same attitude as Christ”, His being God’s only Begotten Son, he has the same nature as his Father i.e. Divine & we too, should be pressing for the mark that the “same nature be in us” II Pet 1:4
The “poison” dearest Scott, is that of the three headed pagan god. Study it, you’ll see. Or are you afraid to learn the truth? And yes, my encounter was life changing, radical & intense & as I’ve cried out for truth & have remained “teachable” I’ve come into more & more understanding of the “Son of God” & “Son of Man”. That revelation is available to all who diligently seek him. I am not a heretic.

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/6/2010 07:23 am

I’ll have to agree with Scott in doubting your sincerity. That’s nothing to take offense at, after all, this is the internet!

But, since Jesus is your Saviour, tell me what “your” Bible says in Isaiah 43:11.

And if you’ll study church history as well, you’ll learn that not all “Christian” denominations came out of the Roman Catholic Whore of Rev. 17. Of course, they would like you to think that… but just who were all those
“heretics” they put to death?

“Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers.” [(Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pages 112,113.) Cardinal Hosius (1524), President of the Council of Trent:]

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/6/2010 05:39 am

“I want to understand how Jesus can be God & have a God superior to himself????”

That’s such a nice sounding sentiment, Candace. But from reading the rest of your posts, it’s also totally disingenuous. You have no desire at all to understand how Jesus can be God. If you did, you would lay down your “poor me” attitude right alongside your worthless doctrine and MAYBE you could understand it a little bit.

But here’s the irony of it all. The mystery of God incarnate CAN’T be understood by mere mortals; so quit trying (if you really are). It can’t be understood but it CAN be believed. Heck, you can’t even understand the God you say you know. How can the finite comprehend the infinite? But evidently, YOU do! You say;

“Yahweh/Elohim is far mightier, more soveriegn & all powerful etc than our feeble brains can comprehend!”

But then you put this Almighty God into your tiny little box and say he CAN’T become a man! Where is it exactly in scripture that God said he would never become a man? Is it beneath his dignity?? Is he too proud to identify with his own creation? Is he too afraid of getting his hands dirty? Does he only love us enough to create a sinless mortal to come rescue us but not love us enough to rescue us HIMSELF? How is it that the offspring of a dog is a dog; the offspring of a cat is a cat; the offspring of a human is a human; but the offspring of God is A MAN??! I don’t think it’s very wise to tell the Author of LIFE just what he can and cannot do.

And why do you always revert back to this business of Jesus “having a God superior to himself”? Do you not believe the scripture that Jesus could’ve claimed equality with God? (Don’t forget, he SHARED the glory WITH the Father BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN). So why DIDN’T he claim equality?? Because He SET IT ASIDE so he could come and IDENTIFY with OUR WEAKNESS. The Father is NOT superior to the Son is his essence. He is only superior in his office; and that was only because of the Son’s obedience to come and take on human flesh. Your Jesus gave up NOTHING of intrinsic worth to be our savior. My Jesus gave up EVERYTHING! If you understood THIS, you would soon shed your “poor me” disposition.

Do you know who Java Man is? He’s the archaeological find that is supposed to be the “missing link” between humans and our ape-like ancestors. Of course, he’s only “real” to the hard core evolutionist; but his historic discovery was supposed to be the final proof that human identity is undeniably linked to the lower animal forms. And, indeed, if Java Man really WAS an ape-man, we WOULD be linked to him, and, by extension, our identity and intrinsic value wouldn’t be any different than his. But we don’t have an ape-man from which to draw our value and identity as human beings.., we have a God-Man.

You also said;

“I’ve asked Scott a couple of times but because he seems to feel I’m not a member of the Body of Christ, I don’t deserve an answer.”

Once again, your victim mentality has clouded your thinking. Whether or not you are a “member of the Body of Christ” is not for me to say. I don’t presume to know one way or the other. That’s between you and God. Personally, I have the sense that you’ve had a powerful encounter with Jesus but somewhere along the way you bit into a poisonous apple and now you’re trying to spread that same old poison as truth. And whether or not you are “deserving” of answers depends entirely upon the sincerity of your questions. You can judge that for yourself.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/6/2010 04:34 am

The Angel of the lord Hosea 12:4 as agent of Yahweh wrestled with Jacob. God created a son, commisioned him to save us for him, Yahweh the ONE God of all and father of all.Jason he uses people to do his bitting.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/6/2010 02:04 am

Jason….why do none of you answer the questions I ask but with another question???? OF COURSE I BELIEVE YAHSHUA /JESUS IS MY SAVIOR!!! He’s THE LAMB OF GOD…not God the Lamb. He’s the fulfillment of Passover (the perfect Lamb Sacrifice to God)Yahshua shed his own blood. God does NOT bleed…that is as pagan as you can get. Is God sacrificing another God?!!!! The Lamb slain is before the Throne of the Almighty God in Rev 5:5. That Lamb is NOT on the Throne & he takes the scroll from God Almighty, who IS seatted on the Throne! Remember Jesus is seated at His/Yahweh’s right hand (meaning the place of authority). Jesus has a GOD! Please answer me, why does Jesus have a God if he is God????
About the “seeing” the LORD(Yahweh) face to face one must study the Hebrew language in detail & you will discover in all cases, the encounters, even His voice, was manifested through the agent of the Angel of the LORD, lest we mere men literally die in His Presence. Yahweh/Elohim is far mightier, more soveriegn & all powerful etc than our feeble brains can comprehend! And JESUS IS NOT, NEVER WAS & NEVER WILL BE AN ANGEL!!!! Heb 1:5 That’s pure paganism to it’s fullest measure! He’s the LAST ADAM! Adam MEANS Man/Human. It really does. I’m NOT a heretic! The doctrine of a trinune god is a pagan conception going back 1000s of yrs. Do some church history studies & you too will see. I dearly care for you & I desire more fervently than any of you can possibley know…that we ALL come out of Babylon the Great Harlet….& see the Truth! I pray w/ everything w/in me that the scales of Catholic Indoctrination from the 4th century, come off your eyes & that you will “know” the One True God & HIS Christ!!! John 17:3
Will anyone answer truthfully w/out attacks & sarcasm?

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 22:33 pm

But let me back up. Do yall even believe Jesus is the Saviour?

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 21:45 pm

Here’s another question to ponder Candace,

Jacob testified: “…I have seen God face to face…” (Gen 32:30)

Isaiah said, “In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up…” (Isaiah 6:1)

And there are other Scriptures where people saw the Lord. BUT the apostle John says, “No man hath seen God at any time… (1 John 4:12) (Even if you don’t ascribe to the Trinity, you have to admit it’s a pretty simple solution to that problem.)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 21:37 pm

Gal.3:19-20 Shows there is a seed of promise the non existent Jesus,it shows that God is one and not two. You can’t have it both ways right. The scripture I Tim 2:5 which Candace pointed out seals the argument. Checkmate

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 19:28 pm

Jason, I know I’m going to get slamed, accused, called names but I’m trying to understand the “Bible” & not men’s doctrines so here goes & God have mercy on me. If Jesus/Yahshua is God than why could he do no miracles & very few healings in his home town? Mark 6:5 (”I can do nothing of my own self” Jn 5:30) & why does Jesus/Yahshua have a God? Matt 27:46; Jn 20:7; I Cor 1:2,3; (II Cor 11:3 “the head of Christ is God”.) Eph 1:3; Eph 1:17; Col 1:3; Rev 3;12; I Cor 15:21 Why do all these scripture say God is the God of Christ???? I’m not trying to be arguementative…..I want to understand how Jesus can be God & have a God superior to himself????

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 18:50 pm

You know exactly what it says. Jesus is the perfect Mediator because He’s both God AND Man. “a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.” (Gal 3:20)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 17:37 pm

God is one. Who will repesent Him in mediating with man? For where there is a mediator, there two parities concerned. A mediator between man and God must, of necessaity, represent both God and man. Jesus is the one who does that. Being truely God and truely man, he does that.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 17:32 pm

Jason???? I don’t know what you are trying to tell me w/ Gal 3:20 other than Yahshua/Jesus is a “mediator” for us all & God is “one”! I know that. What I’m asking is: Yahshua is HUMAN! Not just when he was on earth but now in heaven as well mediating between us & God. How can he be called “the One True God” when he’s the “MAN” Christ Jesus doing the “mediating” between us & God???? Much Agape, Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 16:11 pm

“Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.” (Galatians 3:20)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 13:17 pm

Hi Jason, Before we leave this forum I still have a question that hasn’t been answered. I’ve asked Scott a couple of times but because he seems to feel I’m not a member of the Body of Christ, I don’t deserve an answer. Maybe you will answer it because I really want to know. I Tim 2:4,5 from the Jewish Bible: “He wants all humanity to be delivered and come to the full knowledge of the truth. For God is one, and there is but one Mediator between God and humanity, Yeshua the Messiah, himself human, who gave himself as a ransom on hehalf of all, thus providing testimony to God’s purpose at just the right time.” KJB says about the same thing. If Jesus is God then we have no mediator & no high priest???

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/5/2010 06:31 am

Anyway, if we’re going to talk rapture, perhaps we should move to http://www.vbvbc.org/bible-verse/1-thessalonians4-17 Scott Dale has a question I really don’t have the answer to

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/4/2010 18:21 pm

Mark, I’ll go to Heaven via the rapture or the grave. Either way, the term “Rapture” comes from rapturo. From what I understand it is a Latin transliteration of “caught up” in 1Th 4:17. However, I’ve never personally looked that up in a Latin Bible. I have enough trouble with English.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/4/2010 00:31 am

Sorry…it looks like that song didn’t come up. You can go to YouTube, type in Kimberly & Alberto Rivera-Deeper Still. Hope you will

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/3/2010 22:41 pm

Oops….too late. 30 yrs ago when I cried out for “truth” I found my Savior, was saved & set down in the middle of a rivival & a bible college….I GOT TRUTH! I also asked the Lord for the infilling of His Spirit as I felt so inadequate to pray or worship Him. He heard me in my cries & filled me w/ His Spirit & sounds I never learned began to come out of my mouth. I wept for the pure beauty of it. I have prayed in my heavenly language for these 30 yrs & I would be lost w/out the expression of these deep groanings of my spirit. I have done warfare, intercession, worship of the deepest kind w/ songs born from the depths of my heart in this heavenly language. I thank Him daily for this intimate language He has so graciously given me just for asking & believing.
There is also the “gifts” of tongues & interpretation (one of the 9 gifts) that He has recently blessed me w/. It was scary at 1st but He asked me to just trust Him & He would give the utterance….I am still learning.
Here is a sample of singing in the Spirit. May it bless you deeply. www.youtube.com/watchv=FRQHdgoG1yu&feature=related There is more beauty, more wonders, more glory for those willing to surrender all & just let Him be God & fill us w/ more of Himself. Don’t be robbed Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/3/2010 22:36 pm

Let me guess Jason your going to be raptured, maybe you can enlighten us on where this is in the bible. Let me guess right next to the verses on the Trinity…

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/3/2010 22:27 pm

“How do I feel about that?” I like it. Jesus is coming and all’s well that ends well. As for the tribulation. I don’t plan on being here. As for prophecy and words of knowledge, we have the Bible (1Cor 13:10). Can’t get any better than that. We don’t speak in tongues either (that is unless I’m talking to Santos in Spanish). I happen to have a series on that subject as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJdfKUpk7Yg

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/3/2010 19:57 pm

Jason, I find that interesting & I’m glad you’re having a good time. You know if God’s people can be humble enough to “middle shelf” some indoctrination, there’s a wealth of revelation being restored in these last days. Acts 3:20,21; Dan 12:4 “seal it until the end” & Rev 10:4. So that tells me a lot more revelation on things that have been hidden are about to break free! How do you feel about that?! It’s been our experience, as we’ve been pressing in for “The Book of Acts Church” to be restored, God has been faithful to speak to our group in prophecy, healings & words of knowledge. Does your church walk in those things? If not, it’s there for those who are diligently seeking! We’re seeing “religion” & it’s deadness being replaced w/ Relationship w/ the Father & the Son & w/ it is coming the supernatural things that the N.T. Church walked in. If they be the “baby” church than think how much further along we should be! Hence “the restoration” of all things! I can’t wait & we are tasting of it even now! A Bride is being prepared & she WILL know her Bridegroom!
I’m really not so bad:)

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/3/2010 19:46 pm

Intolerant maybe, but I don’t see where you get bitterness from. I’m actually having a pretty good time Candace…

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/3/2010 16:11 pm

Hey Jason, why don’t you stick to the scriptures i quoted or the history I brought up other wise there is no point.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/3/2010 04:33 am

No. I have a pretty good feeling you can be much more ugly than this. “by their fruit you shall know them”. Matt 7:19,20. “you are of your father, the devil”.
Do you shed the Love of God abroad” Are you walking in….”joy unspeakable & full of Glory”!? Doesn’t appear so.
What you “have” mastered is the letter of law which killeth, legaliam & a heavy dose of phariceeism. The same spirit that crucified Christ is dwelling in you & I have great compassion for your condition.
You can continue to insult, scorn, condemn, mock & ridicule me all you like but dear Jason all you are doing is showing the world what is really in your heart. You are consumed w/ bitterness & intolerance. Definitely not Fruits of Spirit of God.

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 23:46 pm

Hows this for caustic? “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:33)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 22:11 pm

Jason, This may be of interest to you. You spell His/Yahweh’s name wrong as well. www.plim.org/JesusOrigin.htm
I don’t want to speak for Mark but I think he is saying Yahshua has a “glorified” body & we too that are fortunate enough to be harpazoed will have one as well.(I Cor 15:53) Yahshua 1st gave us a glimpse of that body in Matt 17:2. We don’t encounter it again until after his resurrection: Luke 24:39; “handle me, & see, a spirit has not flesh & bones as you see I have.” They touched him, he ate, he cooked breakfast, he walked w/ them on the road to Emmaus. But he also just appeared & disappeared & ascended up before their eyes. This body is a very special body for it will never perish into corruption again (Psalm 16:10 “for Thou shall not leave my soul in hell; neither will Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption) If God had not raised him, he would have decayed like the 1st Adam. And his glorified body STILL bears the wounds of his crucifiction….Zec 12:10; Jn 19:37; Rev 1:7 God does not have a body. He IS SPIRIT. I Cor 15:52 speaks of that same glorified body for those caught up.
About John 20:28: As Yahshua taught his disciple about his Father & the Kingdom of heaven he answered their questions when asked….”show us the Father”. Col 1:19 ” for God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in him/Christ”. II Cor 5:19 ” God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself/God.” Col 1:15 “who is the image of the invisible God, 1st born of every creature.” God can not be born.
When Thomas exclaimed…”My Lord & My God, he was fully acknowledging that Yahshua was indedd God’s Messiah, the promised one, & he realized at that moment ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD was truly IN him/Christ! If he had doubts before who Yahshua was, he no longer did! When we are “filled” w/ the H.S. we have but a measure or we’d be doing the “greater works” Yahshua spoke of. He on the other hand had NO fallen nature & the FULLNESS of God’s Spirit was “pleased” to dwell. Thomas finally saw that Yahshua was who he said he was & the Father indeed has raised him from the dead as he was standing right there before him in his glorified body….the promise of our own glorified body when he comes for us at the parousia!
You are so caustic….do you feel that attitude is pleasing to your Savior who taught us to bless those that curse us, turn the other cheek & love your enemies? How many have you brought into the Kingdom w/ that foul attitude???

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 19:07 pm

I don’t know Him? You can’t even spell His name right lol What a loser

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 12:43 pm

“Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us THE FATHER, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, HAVE I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME, Philip?…” (John 14:8-9)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 12:39 pm

Who is Yahweh? He is God but you don’t know him because you worship the created not the creator. This is eternal life that they may know you the only true God and his son Jesus Christ.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 12:01 pm

So lets forget what I wrote last time,since it was ignored and move on to your next objection. Jesus appeared to them for there sake, it also say’s he disappeared and went back to heaven. When christ returns, the dead in christ rise first,that means every called out one from the time of Adam then the rest are change in the twinkling of the eye into spirit beings. We will rule with Christ a 1000 years, we are spirit beings to. We also will be ruling in a physical world. So as like Jesus apearing to his physical deciples we will be seen by our human brothers. Yet we will be spirit beings, for we won’t sleep or be limited to physical needs. Jesus ate with them to, for fellowship not for hunger. Thomas put his fingers in the side of Jesus for he did not believe. Are we to believe that Thomas put his fingers inside a physical body with no blood on his hands or was this a spiritual body for there sake. Whats this have to do with Jesus the Jew, the Sabbath keeper, holy day keeper, monotheistic hebrew man, who we are to follow, is this the doctrine you adhear to? Or do you have a greek god created in pagon Rome 300 years after the fact. What does christianity have to do with this Jesus? Many will say lord lord and cast out demons in his name and he will say I don’t know you,you who practice lawlessness. Who is he talking to? The compromising christians in name only.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 11:55 am

“Who is Yahweh?” http://av1611.com/kjbp/ridiculous-kjv-bible-corrections/Yahweh-Jehova-YHVH.html

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 09:33 am

Mark, you’re right, the word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible. But for that matter, the word “Bible” doesn’t appear in the Bible either - yet that doesn’t disprove the Bible’s existence!

So what if the word “Trinity” doesn’t appear in the Bible…the word “Godhead” does. In fact it appears 3 times (if you’re reading the right Bible).

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 09:23 am

www.sullivan-county.com/identity/trinity.htm

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 06:32 am

Mark,

What’s this “raised from the dead into spirit” business? I’d like to hear what you mean by this. How does your statement square with:

“Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” Lk 24:39.

Is your Jesus nothing more than a spirit being? Is this what your theology does to the Son of God?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 04:34 am

I showed you the Monotheistic Jew Jesus he came not to destroy the law or the prophets, the trinity is not in scripture. God is a single, one, only being he created all things including begetting his son. Jesus is the first human to ever be raised from the dead into spirit. This is the message and hope for mankind. He was the first born among many. This is the promise for the converted ones called of Yahweh. Eternal life given to humans not preexisting gods or spirits.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 03:15 am

Candace, Love’s lips don’t always drop honey.(Pr 27:6) You and your buddy mark need the living devil preached out of you. (2Thess 3:14)

And as for my “doctrines” I get them from the Bible not Norman Vincent Peale. “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” (Romans 16:17)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/2/2010 02:40 am

Jason, I percieve such intolerence & hatred even for those that don’t adhere to the same doctrines as you do. If I am totally deceived & am truly a “heretic” as you have labeled me, I could not feel more maligned & unsafe “learning” from you. I am not drawn in the least by your continual debasement & out right disgust toward ones like me. I don’t sense the Father’s heart to teach me nor do I see demonstrated the “unconditional love” that Yeshua taught & walked in when he said….” the world will know you are MY disciples by the love you have for one another”.
How could ones like me ever learn from ones like you?

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/31/2010 20:21 pm

Jason, most all of the translation use Word and Him, we are odviously using the ones that support our monotheistic view. As you move on remember james 2:19

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/31/2010 17:34 pm

Marcus, Thomas called Him Kurios and Theos in Greek not adonai in John 20.

So you admit candace, that the majority of Bible translations don’t use “it” in John 1? Of course you do.

Either way, its not about how the passage could be translated, its about how it should be. The King James Bible gets it right. (By the way, that is the version being used in this forum in case you haven’t noticed.)

As for the Word in John 1:1 - “Jesus is God spelling Himself out in language that man can understand.” Jesus is God in the flesh. If you don’t believe that, fine. You’re a heretic. I’m moving on.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/31/2010 04:13 am

WELL DONE! Mark! MY Tyndale says the “same” thing…..”IT”! (of course it does:) Not until there appeared more & more translations w/ a trinitarian bent did the word “it” become “he” although many, most Hebrew & Greek words are assigned a gender or are gender neuter. Much like we might call a boat or a car “she”. Same thing w/ the Ruach haKodesh (Sacred Breath) Holy Spirit.

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/30/2010 18:19 pm

Jason John 1:1 from MY Tyndale bible, was where I copied it from “It” the worde was in the beginning with God. Just as my worde has been with me from my beginning. So what then is your arguement about because I didn’t spell beginnynge? We were talking about word and it. Strongs definition of “word” is utterance. Look it up and all the other times its used.Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/30/2010 17:52 pm

Now your getting it Jason My lord (Adoni) and my god (theos) See not Ho theos and not Adonia which always refers to the one God Yahweh. The Ps 110:1 is repeated in the new testament to keep the monothiestic heb faith intacked just as Jesus confirms Mark 12:28-29-32 This is the clearest statement and confirmation from the Christ that he is not and never atempted to say he was God. This was his chance and instead he confirmed the scriptures of the monotheistic faith of Israel, Yahweh’s chosen. Jason you must understand the first testament and be grouned in the faith before you look into the new testament translated by pagon christian trinitarians. This two or three god’s came after the first century confirmed at nicea and repeated to this day by christians in name only not serious students of the bible and history.I can show you numorus scholars that agree with my interpetation of Ps 110 and most of them are trinitarians like Prophessor Howard Marshall or Eerdmans 2003 pg183 his book “Lord Jesus Christ” Much more if you desire. Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/30/2010 17:36 pm

*but it does say…

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/30/2010 03:45 am

RE: “In the beginning was the worde and the worde was with God and the worde was God and it was in the beginning with God. This is from the Tyndale bible 1534…”

I’m guessing you don’t have a copy of Tyndale’s 1534 work, because it says, “ In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.” His single 1526 NT reads the same way. You really should look things up for yourself instead of parroting what you’ve heard or cut-and-pasting from a website. It diminishes your credibility.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/william-tyndales-translation/

RE: “Jason, the LORD said to my lord is first showing you the two different words for lord.”

In Hebrew yes. But Luke 20:42 uses the same Greek Word to translate both as “Lord.”

RE: “Look them up one is always refering and only refering to father Adonia and the other is refering (sic) to lords and masters like kings and men of importance…”

Well, besides God, just who was KING David calling his master? Or as Jesus asked, “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? ” (Matt 22:45)

RE: “Thomas says my lord and my mighty one…”

John 20:28? Where did you get that from? lol Not even the scholastic-fraud-of-a-Bible the JW’s use translates it that way. Be honest, “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord (kurios) and my God (theos).” (KJV)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/30/2010 03:42 am

Jason, the LORD said to my lord is first showing you the two different words for lord. Look them up one is always refering and only refering to father Adonia and the other is refering to lords and masters like kings and men of importance like when Thomas says my lord and my mighty one to the reserected man Jesus.Acts 2:34 “That God had MADE that same Jesus”
In the beginning was the worde and the worde was with God and the worde was God and it was in the beginning with God. This is from the Tyndale bible 1534 So there you have it no conspircy! No trying to figure out how a word can be person seperate from the one speaking it. Just as the father told Moses I will put my words in his mouth Deut 18:18 Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/29/2010 22:35 pm

Also, unless you’re reading from a NWT (which doesn’t have a Greek leg to stand on) the Bible says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1) That “Word” is Jesus.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/29/2010 19:24 pm

RE: “Nowhere in scripture does God ever pray or say he has a God.”

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” (Psalms 110:1)

“And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?” (Luke 20:42-44)

“For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand…Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:34-36)

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/29/2010 19:22 pm

Scott,Im not trying to make two Gods. There is only one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus christ. Could this be any more apart. Jesus is not God, he is human and he now sits for thr first time in the presence of his and our God. God has no God for he is God. Nowhere in scripture does God ever pray or say he has a God. For God can not have a God or he wouldn’t be God. This is the monotheism of the hebrew faith which Jesus was apart of. He asked the apostles who do you say Iam and Peter replied thou art the christ son of the “who”the living God. Jesus could of told the apostles that he was God right there but he said not flesh and blood but my father in heaven revealed this. Jesus tells the apostles that on this knowledge he would built his church. So the knowledge that the father is God alone is the foundation of christianity, but the spirit of the antichrist is who denies Jesus came in the flesh. Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/29/2010 16:17 pm

Mark is so right….I apologize & repent to you all. This sarcasm & rudeness is a very poor testimony to the God we serve & to our precious Savior who laid his life down that we may walk in complete victory, being washed in his blood. We come across every bit as nasty as the unsaved…maybe worse. This is the very reason I have avoided blogs & forums…I have seen this behavior so many times & didn’t want to engage. Now I have & I am deeply convicted. You are men of God looking for the greater truth & I truly pray we all find it. Thank you, Mark for always being such a gentlemen. You are a blessing in many, many ways. In His Grip, Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/29/2010 06:21 am

Mark,

“Jeremy, I asked Scott the same question about Is 44-45 about the I alone am God and there is no other.Who is this only God?”

The answer is the same as I gave before; Jesus is not “apart” from God. You keep trying to make two Gods out of this seeming conundrum. Both Hebrew words carry the meaning “other than”. IOW; “Apart from Me; besides Me or other than Me, there is no God.” Jesus is not APART from God; he is not OTHER than God.

Jesus and his Father are ONE (Jn 17). It’s similar to but far greater than “the two shall become one”. One in essence, not merely One in purpose. The union of two people becoming ONE in marriage is mysterious enough all by itself (can YOU explain it; and yet, is it not true?). How much more the union of God the Father and God the Son.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/29/2010 04:33 am

Lets stop the insults and stick to the scriptures this is not a soap opera. If your interested in exchanging idea’s thats fine, after that its worldly right. Jeremy, I asked Scott the same question about Is 44-45 about the I alone am God and there is no other.Who is this only God? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 23:55 pm

1. You can’t find the word “Church” in that whole chapter. But if you want to act one way in church and another when you’re not, I certainly can’t stop you from holding a double standard.

2. Maybe you should braid your hair or wear “jewery” (sic) some women need all the help they can get. You know?

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 23:17 pm

I have something wonderful to share w/ you all if this can be posted.
http//www.greatdanepro.com/Pray%20For%20America/index.htm
Sure hope this link works…….you’ll be Blessed. Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 18:18 pm

Dear Scott, It would seem w/ you I am damned if I don’t & damned if I do. No matter what I share it’s met w/ criticism. I would dearly love to hear your explaination on the before mentioned verses from Jn 17. What does that mean to you when it says Jesus prayed that we too be one? If I’m so wrong, what is the correct Scott approved answer? I would also like very much to hear your understanding of I Tim 2:5 “for there is one God & one mediator betweeen God & men, the man Christ Jesus.” Help me learn Scott…..what does that mean seeing it was written post death & resurrection of Jesus? I’m not being facetious, I really want to know seeing all of you have doomed me to hell for believing the Son of God is exactly that.
Jason: I didn’t realize we were in Church (I Tim 2:12) I certainly didn’t think I was usurping anyone’s authority? Should I not braid my hair or wear jewery either? Maybe I should be more careful how I treat my slaves.

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 17:24 pm

We could always ask her what she thinks of 1 Timothy 2:12. lol

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 13:05 pm

Unity of the Spirit hinges first and foremost on the identity of Christ: Who he is and what he has done. If there is no essential agreement on this; there can be NO unity.

Candace is once again playing the victim. She can’t seem to separate attacking her fraudulent claims from attacking her personally. One can almost hear violins in the background as she recounts the loss of those she has “thoroughly loved”. This is not to minimize her pain as illegitimate, but rather to ask, what does it have to do with the pursuit of truth on this forum? Sympathy only wins arguments in the courts of public opinion. Relationships are not one-way streets. Who knows but that it was not HER own choice to embrace a false teaching about Christ that spawned her “leprosy”.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 11:21 am

Groan………………….Sorry for the typo “make”. I think most everyone uses & approves of the KJV, yes?
Jn 17:21 ” that they may all be one; as thou Father art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
Jn 17:23 “I in them, thou in me that they may be made perfect in one, and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”
Jn 17:11 “I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so they may be one as we are one.” NIV There are more.
Scott, why don’t you attack Jeremy for awhile. He’s oneness & not trinitarian. Read his post 93 I am not whinning but my heart does ache deep w/in for the loss of those I have thoroughly loved & now they are gone & treat us like we are lepers because of this doctrine. Maybe you don’t love to that level so it doen’t bother you to loose dear ones but for me, it hurts more than words can express. Does no one “Endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit” ???? Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 06:12 am

Jeremy,

Mark and Candace are really good at leading you down a rabbit trail because they have little regard for what the bible actually says whenever it conflicts with their fraudulent teaching. They are determined to make a man into a god; and God into a mere man. They are classic cultists when it comes to re-definition of terms and texts. A cursory review of this thread will bear that out to anyone possessing common sense.

However, every once in a while they will be exposed. Their chosen method for dealing with this is to simply ignore it or minimize the exposure into pseudo-insignificance. But if the exposure gets too intense, they retreat into victimhood (Candace much more than Mark). They would have you think that we are persecuting them just like Jesus was persecuted; however, there’s a very strange irony about their whining: Jesus was persecuted BECAUSE he claimed to be God (John 10:33). These two are being “persecuted” because they claim Jesus ISN’T God!

Keith Green says it well of these two; they “mix a little truth with every lie to tickle itching ears.” You might say that they are “MIS-firing on all cylinders.”

Go ahead and engage them for a while if you wish, but they are truly hardcore in their deception. It’s not like they haven’t studied. But they study unto their own destruction. Just look what Candace tries to do with John 17:21;

“that THEY/us may be ONE AS YOU & I, Father are one….”Thou in me, I in Thee that they make be ONE in Us!!!!!”

Instead of simply believing that Jesus is saying that he is REALLY one with the Father and we can be also; she reduces the beauty of Jesus’ prayer to simply being one in PURPOSE! WHAT A JOKE!! But she’s smooth so watch out. So is Mark.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 03:45 am

Jeremy,you walk into the truth were you ready for that? Candace is teaching(firing) on all clynders.Jeremy, Jesus is your brother not your God. He is able to help, guide, incourage shine light on the path, all these things he does, are to lead us to the glory of his father who is well pleased with his sinnless obedient son. The father Yahweh and his only begotten son are the perfect example of a perfect relationship that works on all levels.Jeremy, your relationship with Jesus will determine your relationship with Yahweh. If your god is Jesus you have no relationship with Yahweh. For Jesus is the mediator between God and Man I Tim 2:5 Jeremy let me ask you one question are you here on this site to show us your truth against our error? Or can you explain who the Is 44:6 besides me there is no other God? This is a good place to start, also read the rest of Is 44-45 chapters. Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2010 02:12 am

Jeremy…I really wish you & others wouldn’t try to rebut what you don’t understand & w/out reading all the entries that came before. You are in gross error in many areas…I will point out but a few.
1. Why it’s so hard for all of you to understand “THE ONENESS” Yeshua is speaking of, is beyond me…..Jn 17:21 “that THEY/us may be ONE AS YOU & I, Father are one….”Thou in me, I in Thee that they make be ONE in Us!!!!!!Jeremey, can you see that???? We are all to be ONE in PURPOSE!!!! God’s Purpose brought to us through His Son!!!!! We’re commissioned to FINISH Yeshua’s work!!!!!! i.e THE GREAT COMMIISION! You have heard of that haven’t you???? ONE Body, One Spirit & ONE FATTH!!! Don’t try to debate what you don’t understand.
2. Jn 17:22 “THE GLORY YOU HAVE GIVEN ME I GIVE TO THEM”!!! Looks like Yeshua can give the Glory the Father gave him to anyone he pleases! What you don’t understand about your own bible is…..IT WAS WRITTEN IN HEBREW!!!! The Glory God/Yahweh won’t give to another is….He WILL NOT share it w/ ANOTHER god!!!! You people weary me.
Yeshua IS NOT equal to the Father! READ YOUR BIBLE! Jn 14:28; 10:29 “MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I”. I speak only what the Father gives me to speak; I do only the works I see the Father doing. Luke 18:19 “Why call me good? NO ONE is GOOD but GOD ALONE”!!!! I refuse to rewrite all I have already made plain. If you really want to learn than go back & read it & look up every scripture.
3. I don’t want to insult you but….HA MASHIACH MEANS “Messiah” which translates Christ WHICH MEANS “THE ANOINTED ONE”!!!! Yeshua means YAHWEH/GOD is Savior. Do you get that???? Yeshua has HIS FATHER’S NAME! Only One attribute of the Father’s name…..God Saves!!!!! Learn some Hebrew & some Greek than you will be able to debate. You do error not knowing the scriptures Matt 22:29
4. I’ve already addressed this above…..God’s PLAN to SAVE Israel was & IS through HIS SON!!!! Yeshua i.e. Yahweh/God saves!
5. you have stated the most ludicrous, unscriptural statement a person could possibly make. i.e. “The Father became the Son”. That’s so unscriptual, it doesn’t even deserve an answer but because I do care that some, one of you out there see the truth, I will say it again! Mal 3:6 ” I AM Yahweh! I CHANGE NOT”! Num 23:19 ” GOD IS NOT A MAN THAT HE SHOULD LIE, NOR A SON OF MAN THAT HE SHOULD CHANGE HIS MIND.” GOD IS SPIRIT!!!! (I Jn 4:2) Yehsua/Jesus HAS A GOD right now, in heaven & he will continue to have a God for eternity just like we do!!!! Look these up….scriptures that clearly teach Yeshua’s God is Yahweh. Matt 27:46 “my God, my God
Jn 20:17 “my Father & your Father, my God & your God”; I Cor 8:4-6 “there is only ONE God” I Cor 11:3 ” the Head of Christ IS GOD”! I Cor 1:2,3 ” the God & Father of our Lord Yeshua”. II Cor 11:31; Eph 1:3; Eph 1:17; Col 1:3 “the God & Father of our Lord Yeshua”. Rev 3:12 ” he who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, …… I will write on him the name MY GOD & of the city of MY GOD” And believe it or not there are more….such as; I Cor 15:28 “when all things are subjected under him, then the Son, himslef will be subjected to the ONE/YAHWEH, Who subjected all things to him/Yeshua that GOD MAY BE ALL & ALL”!!! This, Jeremy, is AFTER THE MILLENIAL REIGN OF Yeshua/Jesus!!!!! So…who’s God & who’s the Son???

6. No, Jeremy…..The Son IS NOT THE FATHER nor will he ever be!!!! “this day have I/Yahweh “begotten” you. You/Yeshua “WILL BE” My Son. Gal 4:4 “in the FULLNESS OF TIME God sent forth His son MADE of a woman, under the Law”!
If the Son is the Father, please, please tell me who was Yeshua/Jesus praying to????? If I seem frustrated, I am. I’m so sick & tried of this 4th century heresy robbing God’s people of the TRUTH!
In His Grip, Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/27/2010 19:13 pm

Jesus is not the Father, nor does he wish to rob the Father of his Glory, nor can anyone, even if they tried. Jesus is However equal to the Father, as the Bible clearly states, “I and the Father are one…”. Thus, he is worthy of attributes that only the LORD (the One Lord) our God is worthy of. The Bible plainly states, with out doubt, fear, (or question really) preciesly who Jesus, or Yeshua Ha Mashiach is. Unforfunately Candice, as it would appear, you are sorely mistaken. May He have mercy on you, and forgive you and soften your heart to see the Truth. All the attributes you have taken away from the
Ha Mashiach are his. Lastly, I noticed, you do and have referred to him as the “Christ”, which is Savior. And Besides The God of Isreal, there is no Savior. You consider him To be God and you don’t even know it. You, sister need a better look at what you think you know. The point, the Father became the Son, by way of the Holy Spirit. If you comprehend this, by concluding God has three sides, or natires, then you are far off as well. There is no limit of Nature of comprehnsion of Him in power or of nature at all. Rid yourself of “triune theories”. I mean, he appeared as a cloud, a pillar of Fire, through a donkey, in the likness of an Angel, King of Salem, I mean the list goes on. Don’t put holds on God’s nature. She is right about one thing, Mark, the triune theory, well, it’s confusing. It also goes against what is taught by the Blessed Bible. But if you remember the The Father Became the Son, by way of The Holy Spirit, Making Yeshua Equal to God, then you can’t fail. Yes Candice Yeshua is YHWH of the Old Testament. A-men.
-Peace be with you.

By Jeremy - This is Fogotten Knowledge (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/27/2010 05:31 am

Mark, I am overcome. Thank you for your invitation & as time permits we will be communicating the Awesome things God has prepared for those that love Him….and KNOW Him! May your steps continue to be ordered by Him alone. Much Agape, Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/14/2010 23:36 pm

To Candance, my sister in christ, it has been an honor reading your rebutal’s to Scott’s unmoveable postion, which you and I are well aware of. So I guess this is where we dust off our sandal’s and move on to another site. I would like to leave you with the highest respect and admiration for you have a great writting ability… If you would like to visit away from this site my email is mb912e@msn.com Take care and praise God through Jesus our lord and savior. Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/14/2010 19:54 pm

Mark….I want to thank you for this blog & the opportunity to herald “THE TRUTH”! It’s been an honor to come along side of you w/ the words of life & declare who the real Messiah is.
My heart aches for Scott & the many like him who may never throw away the doctrines, traditions & creeds of men (II Tim 4:3) for the “Revelation” of the true Son of God. Because of pride, many will adhere to their false teachings that came in so very early after the birth of the New Testament Church & be eternally lost.
As you know & I have experienced so many times….the price for truth is very high. Few are willing to pay it. You WILL be persecuted, reviled, ostracized & called a heretic. But for me & I think you as well….we’ll endure those “light afflictions” for the glory of knwowing the One True God/Yahweh & His Christ!!! Yeshua said…”you will have tribulation” & “they hated Me, they will hate you also”. It’s a priviledge to be counted worthy to suffer for his NAME’S sake. Mark, your rewards are great in the Kingdom & when Yeshua comes, he comes w/ his rewards for the faithful.
May this site bring those who are really seeking….Truth! We ARE in these last days & all things will be restored! Revelation & lost understanding are being brought back to those willing to SEE. My greatest grief is….”broad is the way to destruction & many are on that road, narrow is the path to everlasting life & few are those that find it”. I must admit that is a very sobbering word of God. May we all be very sober minded w/ humility lest we fall into the catagory of those in Matt 7:21-23 “depart from Me, I never knew you.”
God Bless you mighty, Mark In His Grip, Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/14/2010 19:03 pm

Scott Matt. 7:21-23 Who are these many?

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/13/2010 08:22 am

it’s neither.

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/13/2010 06:28 am

Candace,

You need to go back to elementary school and study arithmetic again; it’s not 1+1+1=3. It’s 1×1x1=ONE!

(sarcasm unintended)

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/13/2010 02:35 am

Scott, I’m very sure this is futile for me to try but I try because I really do care for you & all that have received the lie of the ancient pagan three headed god. You are deceived & the word of God did not teach you that doctrine, Men behind pulpits taught it to you. I know you criticize, mock & belittle Mark & me both & you refuse to take an honest look at church history but Mark is right. The three headed triune god was introduced into the true church of Yeshua when Constantine instituted his state religion. The Catholic Institution has only propograted that deception throughout these past 16 centuries. Satan , himslef keeps watch over this one because it does the greatest damage to the Body of Christ by keeping them from ever knowing God’s Christ/Messiah. I have never witnessed a more vile & wicked spirit than this one when confronted w/ truth it will always rise up w/ insults, errogance, mocking & self-righteous phariseeism. Never does it exhibit love or understanding or “endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit”, but always does it accuse, reject & ostracize. It’s the same spirit that crucified Yeshua. You realy do need to take a look at church history if you are ever going to come out of the deception you are in. You have probably bought the lie that Yehsua was born on Dec 25th which any history book will give an account of this being the birthdate of many “Sungods” that are triune in nature. Yeshua was born on God’s Holy Convocation, the Feast of Taberncles. Sept/Oct. Easter too, is as pagan as one can get w/ it’s fertility goddess worship, dying eggs in the blood of their slaughtered infants to appease their gods & goddesses.

I Jn 4:1-3 every spirit that acknowledgeds that Jesus came in the flesh/human being is of God. Every spirit which does not acknowledge Jesus as a human being is anti-christ. Ro 8:3 God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. I Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son coming in the flesh, does not have the Father. If we don’t have the Christ (anointed one of God) than we have a false Christ & are not saved.

Yeshua:
a “man” of sorrows
Son of man, our mediator, the MAN Christ Jesus
the LAST Adam(man)
The LAMB of God taken from the same flock as his brethren, a pefect spotess Lamb. It took “human blood” to pay the price of redemption.
Jesus is the “glorified man” in heaven stating he has a God.
He’s still the “Lamb” slain before the throne in heaven.
He comes back as “the Glorified Man” to rule & reign. “all shall mourn when they see “him whom they pierced”
Heb 7:24 But this MAN has an unchangable priesthood. (God is not a priest, a mediator , a lamb or a MAN)
I Cor 11:3 God IS THE HEAD of Christ (God anointed him, raised him, seated him)
Heb 2:7-9 made a little lower than the angels (God elevated him & gave him His Glory)
The SEED of a woman. Gal 4:4 “But when the fullness of time had come. God sent forth His Son MADE of a woman, under the law.
Ro 8:17 now if we are children of God, we are also heirs & joint-heirs with Christ & share in his sufferings that we may also share in his glory.
Last Adam (adam meaning man)Due to our conception of mankind, we see man as evil, full of sin etc. If we look at Adam before the fall, we see man made in the IMAGE of the most high God, clothed in His Glory. God’s most wonderful creation to have dominion over all the earth W/ unbroken glorious union w/ Himself/GOD. Man was not evil but as God said “very good”. The Last Adam was equaly “good” with the same free will, & his own spirit being “in nature” divine. II Pet 1:4 we TOO are partakers in the divine nature of Christ”. Because we’ve been restored back to the family of God.

Things you don’t seem to grasp:
PASSOVER: all the perfect spotless lambs sacrificed were but a dress rehearsal of the true Lamb of God (God is not a lamb!)
UNLEAVEN BREAD: a picture of Yeshua’s SINLESSNESS BECAUSE HE WAS BORN W/OUT THE SIN NATURE we have all inherited from Adam & though TEMPTED in all things, did not sin. Yehusa’s nature is the divine nature of his Father.
FIRSTFRUITS: Jesus is the the 1st sheaf of Barley waived before God as the promise of a field “full” of sheaves just like himself/us. Firstborn of many brethren! God is not sheaves of any harvest! He’s the Husbandman of the harvest.
ALL of God’s Feasts point to His Christ/Messiah not to another god. I don’t care how you cut it, 1+1+1=3! If the Father is God, the Son is God & the H.S. is God you’ve got 3 gods which truly is polytheism & pagan.
Not understanding God’s feasts & our Hebraic roots you don’t seem to understand what the Jews were & still are waiting for in Messiah. They wait for a King from the lineage & SEED of David. A MAN with David’s heart, courage & dedication to Yahweh to deliver them, lead them & be anointed & filled w/ the Spirit of Yahweh! They ARE NOT WAITING FOR ANOTHER GOD!
Divine: pertaining to or proceeding from, a deity, partaking of the nature of a god or gods.
Deity: a god or goddess, the essential nature or condition of being God.
WORD: Jn 1:1 it does NOT read and Jesus was w/ God & Jesus was God & Jesus became flesh……it reads “THE WORD (the logos) of God. Take a course in Greek if need be. THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME! Yeshua is not a “mere” man….he IS the SON of God!!!!

About the worship aspect….again Scott, you seem to have trouble reading what the word of God is clearly saying. In every account I have read, Jesus does not accept “sebomai” which is worship of the One True God, Yahweh but he did accept “proskuneo” paying homage, reverence, to pay respect. And again I say if you knew your scriptures better you would see in every account where worship/sebomai is used it’s FOR HIS NAME!!!! His Name is above every name. Every knee shall bow at his NAME! He HAS HIS FATHER’S NAME! Yehsua (Yahweh Saves) will come in his NEW name when he comes to reign!!! Another facet of his God, Yahweh!!!!
With all your superior intellect & all your insults, mocking & abasing those trying w/ a heart of love to bring you to the truth, you are in great jeopardy of losing your very soul. Because I do care & believe Mark does too, or we wouldn’t continue to put up w/ your snide remarkds, I adjure you to lay aside your doctrines of men & really search the word of God. Your false Christ, your “god the son” can give you nothing. You really NEED the true Messiah, the Christ & Lamb of God, the man Christ Jesus, Yeshua. There is no other way to eternal life. Humble yourself or you may find yourself experiencing the foolish things that really will confound the wise & God hates pride above all things because of it’s unteachable nature.
Scott, why don’t you spend a little less time being sarcastic toward Mark & me & humble yourself to really find the Truth. Your salvation depends on it. In His Grip, Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/13/2010 00:32 am

So what then Scott, your dogma is foremost over scripture… Your Jesus Scott was and is a Jew, followed the hebrew God Yahweh, followed the Law and supported it. Started out his ministry by saying he did not come to destroy but to fullfill, Matt 5:17 for he was the perfect example of God’s creation the second Adam sinless. So lets forget who God is! Who is the Jesus you worship, the biblical one, the Jew, or the counterfiet one of modern christianity? Scott you seem pretty inteligent to me. Am I to understand that what I’ve said is not of fact in History or biblical truth?
Sincerly Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/12/2010 22:58 pm

Mark,

When you start dragging out Constantine and the popes and the pagan “links” to the Trinity, Easter and Sunday worship, I know our conversation is over. I won’t throw stones at these beliefs because it will just be a waste of stones.

Regarding Isa. 44 and the like; I’ve given you my best shot. You seem incapable of accepting the eternal Oneness of the Father and the Son. On the one hand, you and Candace declare that only Yahweh is omnipotent, but then you both try to convince me that he ISN’T by saying that God CANNOT become a man. I say your God is far too small!

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/12/2010 20:24 pm

Scott, Is 44:6,8 Is there a God besides me? Indeed there is no other rock, I know not one.! Is 45:5 I’am the Lord and there is no other, there is no God besides me. singular pronouns vrs 6 repeat. Hear oh Israel the Lord God is one God. I Tim 2:17 I Tim 6:16 who alone has imortality…There is clear and explicit statements about The one and only true God. Are you denying the clarity of these explicit scriptures and many more. The trinity is 350 year after thought from pagon rome through its catholic doctrine which is the protestant postion today… Read JOhn Anthony McGuckin ” The road to Nicea” where Constantine in one day ordered a decsion on the three major doctrine’s that changed what was left of Jesus christian hebrew faith into main stream catholic protestant pagon religion called christanity. The sabbath was not done away with ask any catholic it was change to sunday.the passover was replaced by Easter and the Son of god became bigger than life when he became what carnal man said he was God the Son. Talk about blasphamy. Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/12/2010 18:57 pm

Mark,

Different words for different types of worship do not alter the nature of the word or the object of the worship. For instance, the most common NT word (Strongs 4352) rendered “worship” in connection with God the Father is the same word used time and again for Jesus. There is nothing within the contexts of the many verses where it says someone worships Jesus that suggest anything less than the same kind of worship offered to God (Theos).

In addition, of all the times someone offers worship to Jesus, he never refuses it or rebukes the worshipper. Instead, he receives it. If He were a mere man, Jesus would’ve done exactly what Peter did with Cornelius’ worship (4352) in Acts 10:26.., he would’ve rejected it because no God fearing Jew (especially a rabbi) would allow themselves to receive what is due to God alone (unless they WERE God).

Regarding “divine nature” in 2 Peter 1, there is a very big difference between ‘partaking’ in a divine nature and ‘possessing’ a divine nature. It’s a very mischievous sleight of hand that suggests this verse says that we are (or can be) ‘divine’. The verse is saying that we ‘partake’ in (or of) the divine nature of God WHEN we believe (take hold of) his promises. The implication being that of no longer ‘partaking’ in the lusts of the world. His promises have power to transform our very lives and character.

Now, concerning Isaiah 44:8 and the many other similar verses in Isaiah, you err greatly if you define the Hebrew word rendered ‘beside’ (Strongs 01107) as meaning ‘next to’ or ‘along side of’ or ‘at the side of’. In other words; Yahweh is NOT saying; “there is no God at the side of me”. Rather; Yahweh is saying; “there is no God APART from me” or ’separate from me’ or ‘besideS me’. Look it up. And why is this distinction important? I believe you know why. It’s important because Jesus says in John 10:30; “I and the Father are one”. He reiterates this 3 times in John 17 by declaring that he is IN the Father and the Father is IN him. This is an intrinsic spiritual union. In other words; Jesus is NOT ’separate from’ Yahweh. He is NOT ‘apart from’ him. Jesus and Yahweh are ONE. They are of the same essence (oneness). Jesus the Son is already IN the Father when he is speaking through Isaiah in chapter 44. (Ponder Hebrews 7; especially vss. 8-10)

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/12/2010 07:17 am

Again differnt words for different types of worship 4352 strongs say prostrate oneself in homage Matt 2:2 Strongs 3000 minister to God religious homage worshper.Phil 3:3 Scott I asked the last question for the I don’t know how many times Is 44:8 are you going to tell me who the other gods around God Are? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/11/2010 23:52 pm

Scott, I stand corrected, II Pet 1:3-4 We to are divine so does that make Jesus or us God? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/11/2010 23:37 pm

Mark,

I can’t “give up” something I never claimed to hold. Jesus is divine, not because the scriptures say “God the Son”, which they don’t, but because he possesses the same Godlike attributes of Yahweh that you so flippantly disregard. But I’m not going to argue with you about these things. There are volumns upon volumns of books affirming the deity of Jesus and I know you are quite content to leave him as a mere creature.

But it’s becoming more and more evident just how disingenuous you and Candace really are. Let’s just take the “worthy of worship” claim that you supposedly agree with. Since when has ANY human king or lord been “worthy” of worship? Don’t you know that any worship of a human being is strictly forbidden by God? Of COURSE you do! So I’m sure you must’ve re-defined “worship” into two separate but distinct categories. One for the greater LORD and one for the lesser lord. But, in order to do this, you’ve had to create your own rules of interpretation and definition because the bible knows of no such distinction in the word “worship” nor does it permit worship of anyone but God alone! But, you have your reasons.

Evidently, Candace has also learned to employ this unique “hermeneutic”. She agrees that Jesus is “divine” but then denies he possesses the attributes of God. This simply does not compute except in the world of the deceived. Is this where you two dwell?

Lastly, you have done the very same thing with The Riddle. The First and the Last; the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega are first and foremost names of Almighty God but you worm your way out of the clear consequence of The Riddle by simply re-interpreting these scriptures to suit your fancy. Show me where the “first and the last” of Revelation is ANYWHERE associated with “first born” or “author and finisher”. Are you purposely deceiving yourself?? Why do you continue to minimize the clear word of scripture in order to prop up your pathetic doctrine? Of COURSE your Jesus can’t be pre-existent, omniscient, omnipotent or self-existent because you have destroyed the very texts that say he IS!

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/11/2010 03:01 am

Thank you, Mark

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/11/2010 00:25 am

Scott, if you give up the fact that Jesus is no where called God the Son.Then why are you trying to say that he is? Prexistance, no scripture says Jesus prexisted. No scripture, that says Jesus created anything, Jesus claims God created them male and female Mark 10:6 “Omniscient” no scripture for that either. “Omnipotent” no. Worthy of worship? yes he is a lord and king. “Self existent” no. Does Jesus claim to be self existent? No again Please don’t come back with all things were created “BY” The only God created all things for and acount of, for he is before all things. First Born and so far only human given eternal life that is why he is the first and the last the author and finisher of our faith. Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/10/2010 21:28 pm

Candace,

You do try my patience. There is NO verse in the Bible that reads; “God the Son”. You know it and I know it; but we both also know that a negative cannot prove a positive so it doesn’t really matter now does it.

What DOES matter is: Do the scriptures attribute divinity to Jesus? You know, the basics like pre-existent, creator, omniscient, omnipotent, worthy of worship, self-existent and the like. Also, does Jesus himself claim to be divine and do others acknowledge him as such?

You have apparently come up with a new definition for ‘divinity’ since you say; “I don’t deny Yeshua’s divinity”. But then you relegate him to that of a mere created being. I’ll SAY IT AGAIN: Jesus is NOT the Father and the Father is NOT Jesus. The Bible does NOT explicitly nor implicitly say this. But what the Bible DOES explicitly and implicitly say is that the Father is divine and the Son is divine. You again try to lecture me to know “my bible a little better” but I lecture you to know your GOD a little better! What does Isaiah 42:8 say?? “I will NOT give my glory to another”, but then you say that God DOES give his glory to another. But wait a minute Candace, don’t you also adamantly quote Isaiah 44:8 as proof that apart from God there IS no God?? How conveniently you have butchered the scriptures to make them say just what you want them to say!

Concerning John 17 (you should dare to use this chapter to rob Jesus of his divinity!), God the Father would NEVER share his glory with any creature. If he did, we would then have to worship it and God himself would be guilty of causing us to break the 1st commandment. But the glory of God the Father IS God the Son and because the Son was made in likeness as a man he can give his glory to whom he wishes.

Don’t try and throw Rev 3:12 at me. Do not think for a moment that Jesus calling the Father his God somehow diminishes his divinity. YOU have drawn this conclusion on your own. And yes, you HAVE made Jesus a liar by saying that a mere man can lay claim to the same name as the Eternal God. If Jesus is the “beginning and the end” then he CANNOT by definition be created. You continue to twist the words of the Apocalypse and you are doing so to your own peril.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/10/2010 07:00 am

Scott, why don’t you reconsider, going to the one God Seminar in Seattle, Im sure I could arrange for you to be a opposing speaker! This is the first year we are not having one and Im not sure why other than there was no one interested. Scott you have good questions and these and others will be addressed…The problem with your type of position is if you concede to any of Candace or mine points then there is a crack in your position which would then lead you to new understanding. I and im sure I can speak for Candace that this is very difficult. My core question is Is.44:8 Is there a God beside me? vrs 24 I’am the Lord “Adonia” who made all things, who streched out the heavens alone, who spread out earth-who was with me? Is 45:21 And there is no God besides me,a rightous God and Savior; there is none besides me. Two questions followed by a period! Then I ask who sits beside God on his Throne? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2010 15:04 pm

Scott, you also sneaked in post 69. My challenge to you is please give me just one scripture out of the entire bible that reads “God the Son”. I don’t deny Yeshua’s divinity, his Father IS God but if Yeshua is God than we have 2 gods. And if you knew your bible a little better you would find God DID SHARE HIS NAME, HIS GLORY, HIS AUTHORITY, HIS POWER WITH HIS SON! And Jesus said in John 17 the glory the Father has GIVEN me, I now give to you/us! He is not a liar, Yeshua just knows who he is in God, he knows his God. “Rev 3:12″. Why won’t you answer my questions???? Are they too ridiculous & infantile?

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2010 07:57 am

Well Mr. Brainiac, you’ve insulted me numerous times now but that just seems to be your “nature”. I apologize for my far inferior intellect to you much more superior brain capacity but by answering Rev 1, I mistakenly assumed you would be able to figure out the rest for yourself but obviously you can not. I’ve answered this for you so many times now but it would seem you aren’t really reading what I post. Or you are reading it but you are not comprehending it because of the mindset you have.
Jesus has been given his Father’s name. John 5:43 He, himself said…I don’t come in my own name but in the Father’s name.
Eph 1:17-23 & there are more scriptures but this should suffice:…….”I pray that the glorious Father, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation as you come to khow Christ better. vs18 Then you will have deeper insight. You will know the confidence that he calls you to have & the glorious wealth that God’s people will inherit. vs19 You will also know the unlimited greatness of His/God’s power as it works with might & strength for us, the believers. vs20 He/God worked that same power in Christ when He/God brought him/Christ back to life & GAVE him/Christ the highest position in heaven. vs 21 He/Christ is far above all rulers, authorities, powers, lords & all other names that can be named, not only in this PRESENT world but also in the world to come/millennium. vs 22 GOD has put EVERYTHING under the control of Christ. He/God has made Christ the head of EVERYTHING for the good of the church. vs 23 The church is Christ’s body & completes him/Christ and fills everything in everyway.(GWT)
If you can’t see that God has given His Christ His/God’s own power & authority to rule & reign then I can’t help you. Jesus is the Fristborn of this new creation, us (redeemed back to what the 1st Adam was)Jesus IS the Alpha & Omega, the beginning & end of this New Creation, the New Church & He is the 1st & Last to this Age & the New Age to come. HIS FATHER HAS GIVEN IT TO HIM for his perfect obedience & suffering even death on a cross! I Cor 11:3 “Christ is the head of every man & God is the head of Christ.” Eph 1:22 and God placed all things under his/Christ’s feet & appointed him/Christ to be head over everything for the church. (NIV)
If you are right & God & Jesus are one in the same than God died, Jesus is his own father, we have no mediator between God & men, the MAN Christ Jesus & we have no high priest.
Is that what you are really saying, Scott???? I believe Mark was right when he said…Scott doesn’t want to learn.

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2010 07:38 am

Mark,

I’m somewhat shocked! While I was responding to Candace’s last post, your post #66 snuck in. And I must say that you have made a genuine attempt to address my question in post #61; thanks! Permit me now to respond to Kermit Zarley.

ZARLEY p. 506:
I’m not real keen on the language Zarley uses here but I don’t have a problem with the essence of what he is saying. Evidently, Zarley is using expressions like “Jesus, as God’s representative” to prove only Jesus’ humanity and not his divinity. Of course, I would disagree with this conclusion. I would say that Jesus is the EXACT representation of God. This would include character AND nature; thereby, affirming his deity.

ZARLEY p. 507:
No disagreement here. In fact, I’m glad he makes this point.

ZARLEY p.508:
Ah! Here is the crux of the matter! First of all, I do not maintain “that the speaker in Rev 1.8 is Jesus Christ”. It is clearly God the Father. Likewise, the speaker in Rev 21:6 is also God the Father. Zarley is correct on both counts. (Anyone trying to make the Father the Son; or the Son the Father is wrong and clearly missing the point. This includes trinitarians).

Now here is where it gets dicey. Zarley says;

“Both God and Christ calling themselves ‘the Alpha and the Omega’ and ‘the beginning and the end’ do not make Christ God, just as calling Christ and God ‘LORD’ does not make Christ God.”

Zarley is both right and wrong in his analysis. He is right in that these special names do not make Jesus (Yeshua) God the Father (Yahweh). No trinitarian worth his salt would say this either. But Zarley is wrong if he concludes that these special names do not make Jesus divine. It’s very easy for Zarley to frame his commentary the way that he has but it will be very difficult for him (or you and Candace) to explain how a created being can claim the very names of God without being severely accused of blasphemy; unless, of course, he ISN’T a created being.

More than this, how does Zarley answer the most basic question of all? I won’t argue the “LORD” designation as proof of Jesus’ divinity (tho I could), but let’s just take the titles in Revelation. How can there be MORE than one “First and Last”, “beginning and end”, “Alpha and Omega”?

Yahweh is so jealous for his name that he will not share his glory with another so how can a mere creature take God’s glory without blaspheming? How can Jesus claim to be “the beginning” if he is a creature? If this name does not signify the eternality of God then it means nothing at all. If Jesus is only a man, then he is also a blasphemer AND a liar. How does Zarley wiggle out of this?

Mark, I really don’t expect you to answer these questions. I know your mind is made up and there are just so many hours in the day (but if you should, I too will respond). Thanks for the invitation to the One God conference but I already believe in One God. I can already hear you and Candace saying; “No you don’t”. But the reality is that I do and the divine glory of God the Son is not just the tip of an iceberg; it’s the brightest Jewel in God the Father’s crown.

Shalom

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2010 04:52 am

Mark, that was an awesome excerpt from your book!!! I’ve not read that one yet but am looking forward to getting a copy! It explains the seemingly unexplainable so very well! God is far more Awesome & Almighty than our puny brains can comprehend, hence He chose to reveal Himself in His Son made like us so we could Know Him, see Him etc. I too am trustng it will be of great value to Scott.
We too had an incredible Rosh Hashanah! There was a prophetic word given, an invitation from God as Father to spend 12 days in prayer & fasting & He would reveal Himself to the faithful in intimate ways. He was offering those who will an opportunity to see as He sees & experience His love in profound new ways as we worship Him w/ surrender. In His Grip, Candace

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2010 03:35 am

Candace,

At the risk of insulting you, I must laugh at your last post. Mark did NOT answer my question because Mark only answered HALF of the question. It’s the same thing you have done since I began posting with you. Your silly attempt to instruct me in hermeneutics has absolutely nothing to do with my posts. For the record, I agree wholeheartedly; Rev. 21:6 is the Father (Yahweh). Verses 22 and 23 are not even necessary to conclude that.

The only reason I can figure that you and Mark don’t face the fullness of my questions is because you can’t explain your answer. This would be a real good place to re-state the questions that I’ve posed to you but I honestly don’t know how to do it! Everytime I do, you guys either ignore it, twist it or only partially answer it.

I jettisoned The Riddle not because you solved it, but because you could’nt understand it even though I restated it time and time again. I came to the conclusion that you and Mark have some kind of veil over your understanding so I decided to frame the question in a more simplified manner. That’s what post #61 is all about. C’mon Candace, this isn’t even Meat we’re talking about here; it’s just barely MILK!

You say I have “difficulty distinguishing the Father from the Son”. Again I have to laugh. You and Mark can’t even distinguish the nature of the question I keep posing to you. Why can’t you grasp the significance of it? How many more times must I endure your platitudes in hope that you may possibly face up to my question?

So, here goes. One last time. Forgive me for making this so simplistic. I’m not trying to insult your intelligence but I don’t know what else to do. Can you simply do the following:

In Post #61, there are three (3) questions (just look for the question marks). You have already answered the very first question mark. Both you and Mark answered: God the Father (Yahweh). By answering as you have, there is no need to answer the third question mark; however, the SECOND question mark is just DYING to be answered. Can you (will you) answer it?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2010 03:20 am

Scott,

Rev 21:6 Pro golfer Kermit Zarley’s book “The restitution of Jesus Christ” probably gives the best answer on this verse I’ve found.

From pages 505-508. Beginning with “Agent Christology”

“Jesus second coming is more prominent in The Revelation that anywhere in the Bible. When that blessed event occurs, Agent Christology will manifest itself brilliantly.
We learned in Chapter Four that the expression, ‘the day of the LORD,’ as it relates to the eschatos, signifies when yahweh will display His awesome power as never before. The OT reveals that He will do it by ‘coming’ to the earth ‘with vengence’ to fight ‘like a warrior,’ prevail against His enemies, and thereby ‘judge the earth.’
Yet the Bible teaches that God is transcendent and invisible to mortal humans. If the presence of God ever literally came down to the earth, all mortal humans would instantly be annihilated because God dwells in a glorious light that they cannot approach (Ex 33.5; Ps 104.2; 1 tim 6.16). Consequently, God will come to the earth on ‘that day’ in the Person of Messiah Jesus as God’s agent par excellence (Rev 6.17; 11.15-18; 19.11-16). That event will affirm Agent Christology. At that time Jesus as God’s representative, will fulfill God’s promises by coming to the earth to exercise judgement and restore creation to Edenic conditions that existed prior to the fall of Adam and Eve and more.” (Zarley, pg. 506)

“The words ‘Alpha’ and ‘Omega’ identify the first and the last letters in the Greek alphabet. Claiming to be ‘the Alpha and the Omega’ is synonymous with claiming to be ‘the first and the last.’ (Zarley pg. 507)

“Those who maintain that the speaker in Rev 1.8 is Jesus Christ often cite Rev 22.13 for support. There in, Christ calls himself ‘the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.’(Rev 1.17). However, in Rev 21.6 a speaker says ‘I am the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.’That speaker is ‘He who sits on the throne.’ (v.5), which we have seen always refers to God the father. Who expressely identifies Himself in (v.7) as ‘God.’ Both God and Christ calling themselves ‘the Alpha and the Omega’ and ‘the beginning and the end’ do not make Christ God, just as calling Christ and God ‘LORD’ does not make Christ God (e.g. 4.8,11; 11.15,17; 22.6,21).(Zarley pg. 508).

Scott, I hope this is inspiring. The one God conference is in Seattle on Oct 23-24 two 8 hour days of speakers from around the USA Hope you will come, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Go to: godward.org for info on the 9th annual One God Seminar

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2010 02:58 am

Scott, Mark has anwered your question but you seem to be having great difficulty in distinquishing the Father from the Son. I see a consistant violation of scripture here by continually taking verses out of context. You will always have error & false doctirne in this practice. By applying the simple principle of hermeneutics, the truth will be made plain. In taking scripture out of context we can force the bible to teach just about anything a man(or woman) desires.
Rev 21:6 is Yehweh/God declaring He alone is the Alpha & Omega, the beginning & end. “I Am the LORD/Yahweh, I change not”. God is Spirit He is not & can NOT become a man, lie or die.
Yeshua/Jesus IS the Son, the Last Adam/man & has redeemed us back to what we would have been had the 1st Adam/man not forfeited it all.
An example of hermeneutics: Rev 21:22 “for its temple is the Lord God Almigty AND THE LAMB. AND THE CITY HAS NO NEED OF THE SUN OR THE MOON TO SHINE ON IT, For the Glory of God GIVES it light AND it’s LAMP is The LAMB/Jesus.” (ESV) You CAN NOT interpret vs 6 w/out vs 22 & 23.
Trinitarians are polytheists. I do believe you are oneness. Your God is one but you’ve made Jesus his own father seating himself at his own right hand of authority, raising himself from the dead & handing over the Kingdom to himself that he/Jesus be all & all. A direct violation of many scriptures. What do we do Scott, just throw away all the scriptures that don’t line up w/ our peraonal theology???

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/8/2010 23:17 pm

Mark,

Regarding Rev 21:6; you asked, “why is this a question?”

If you don’t know why it’s a question, you either did not fully read post #61; or did not fully read Rev. 21:6; or you are a “polytheist” just like me!

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/5/2010 04:01 am

Scott, hope you had a great Feast of Tabernacles Rev 21:6 is God speaking, just to make that clear, that would be the father to you polytheist, why is this a question? Now can you answer Is 44:8
Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/5/2010 02:41 am

I’ve been out of state for the last 5 days. Won’t be back until Oct 6th. I hope to talk to you some more. I didn’t think you wanted to hear any more from me but if you’re willing I will address Rev 21. God Bless

By Candace (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/4/2010 21:03 pm

Candace,

I trust you’ve had time to rest up from your weariness. There is definitely no shortage of that these days!

Your last post ended with a comment about my “incessant harping” concerning Rev. 21. For the record, it can only be considered “harping” because you have not addressed it and I refuse to engage you on peripheral verses until you do.

But perhaps I can attempt to re-frame this entire discussion into a more succinct approach without rehashing The Riddle. If I ask you; who is the One speaking in Rev 21:6, would you say the Father or the Son?

If you say; “the Father”; then how can he lay claim to the very same names that Jesus clearly professes as his own in Rev 22:12 and 13?

On the other hand, if you say; “the Son”, then how can he claim to be God himself (Theos) in Rev 21:7?

Feel free (please!) to forget about all the other “darts”. Can you answer to these darts (and these only?!), because I have no intention of “throwing” any others until you do.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/4/2010 04:15 am

I grasp it perfectly. I KNOW the difference between the Father & the Son. The son by it’s very definition Comes from/out of the father. Are you a father? If so your sons/daughters came out of you. I’ve been where you are at. I wanted truth more than life ( I mean that literally) & I searched & travailed & got fought by most of my brethren but when I found The Pearl of great price, I sold ALL that I might have it for it is far more valuable than any doctrines, traditions & creeds of men. You will never persuade me to turn back to the false doctrines I have come out of. Know the truth & it will make you free. You have a doctrine of men.
In Rev 1:1-20 we open up with witnessing the “revelation” of Jesus the Christ which God gave John. vs2 God sent His angel to John who bore witness to the word of God AND of Jesus Christ. vs4 “Grace to you & peace from Him/Yahweh Who is & Who was & is to come AND FROM Jesus Christ the faithful witness “the FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD” To him/Jesus who loves us & has freed us from our sins by HIS BLOOD & made us a kingdom, priests to HIS GOD & FATHER”, to him/Jesus be glory & dominion forever & ever. Amen. vs 7 Behold he/Jesus he is coming w/ the clouds/saints & every eye will see him/Jesus ,EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM/JESUS & all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him/Jesus. God WAS NOT PIERCED!!!
Vs8 Yahweh/Elohim/God speaking: “I AM THE ALPHA & THE OMEGA.” SAY THE LORD GOD/YAHWEH,Who is & Who was & Who is to come, “THE ALMIGHTY”!!!!! NOT THE SON! THE FATHER!!!
Vs10 “I/John, heard a loud voice like a trumpet. This IS Jesus speaking! He IS the Shofar of God! His voice & Authority GIVEN him by HIS FATHER! Yeshua is speaking to HIS CHURCHES!!!! His Churches that He died for. He/Yeshua IS the Head of His Body!!!!! GOD IS A SPIRIT!
As for mocking me & belittling my feable attempt to open your eyes i.e Yeshua being God’s Ambassador…..PLEASE READ THE SCRIPTURE Col 1:15 “Yeshua IS the IMAGE OF THE INVISABLE GOD”. God’s spokesman/amabassador he comes in the NAME OF YAHWEH! (READ: II Cor 5:2 “WE ARE CHRIST’S AMBASSADORS…..”) An image IS NOT THE SAME THING AS THE ORIGINAL SUBSTANCE/please don’t criticize my word choice “substance”, I’m trying to make a point allbeit on deaf ears. Yeshua is the visable carrier of Almighty God that we might feel Him/God, handle Him & KNOW HIM! And know the Son as well! Col 2:9 “THE FULLNESS OF DEITY DWELT IN HIM/CHRIST JESUS!!!! What don’t you “get” from these PLAIN scriptures???
I am very busy today but I WILL ADDRESS YOUR INCESSANT HARPING OVER REV 21 when I have time. I can answer every dart you throw WITH TRUTH. I am weary. In His Grip

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/25/2010 18:46 pm

Of course it’s Yeshua speaking. This was the whole point of The Riddle; the significance of which you still fail to grasp.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/25/2010 14:07 pm

That’s Yeshua speaking.

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/25/2010 06:44 am

The Beginning and the End says;

“I am he that liveth , and WAS dead; and, behold , I am alive for evermore.” Rev 1:18

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/25/2010 05:50 am

your God died

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/25/2010 00:05 am

Candace,

Anger is not in my nature; but anger can be a justifiable response toward anyone who misrepresents the nature and character of God; especially if they teach such things to others. It’s akin to turning over tables, cursing hypocrites and condeming Judaizers. I am neither angry nor hostile toward you. This is a public forum and I appreciate the discussion

I wonder if you are just unable to understand my posts or if I just haven’t said it well enough. In my last post I told you directly why I won’t answer your questions. I’m making my stand on Rev 1 and 21 and you NEVER address it. You made a feeble attempt in your previous post #52 but it never went anywhere beyond a nuance. Then you try to draw me into one of your rabbit trails like “the visible ambassador of the invisible God.” A not-so-subtle example of scripture twisting if ever I saw one.

And what’s this about “a very frustrated Messianic Jew”?? And you want me to engage in a discussion on THAT level?

Or how about this one; you said “Until he was born, Yeshua existed only in the mind & heart of God as His word.” May I ask; what have you done to John 17:5 to arrive at such a conclusion? I know you’ve already nuanced John 1:1 to pieces but just out of curiosity, how have you chopped up “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

I must be a fool for putting up with you so long expecting you to ever address the consequences of a Riddle which began this discussion, only to have you repeatedly ignore it and sidestep it and then question ME why I won’t answer YOU.

Your Jesus is oh so meaningless. “Come unto ME all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.” If Jesus is not Deity, I would truly be a fool to trust him with my soul. Indeed, he would be utterly incapable of giving even ONE person rest, let alone multitudes. You have made Jesus into a person who can neither represent God nor interceed for mankind. He is neither God nor man. You have created a hybrid whose origins are not from heaven.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/24/2010 22:24 pm

Scott….are you angry? You seem so hostile that’s why I wish I could hear your voice.
God the Father is Yahweh. He is One. “Hear O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one” Deut 6:4
God the Son is nowhere in scripture
The Son of God is Yeshua (Yahweh Saves)He has his Father’s name:Phil 2:9 wherefore “God also has highly exalted” him & “given” him a name which is above every name.” Yeshua’s name delcares God just like the prophets names do…Samu-EL, EL-ijah, Jerimi-AH etc. all of them declare attributes of God.(I’ll let you do those studies on your own) How much MORE would the Son of God declare! He is the visible ambassador of the invisible God! We too are ambassadors of God & His Christ. When people see us they should see God in us! And Christ in us the hope of Glory!
Yeshua is God’s word made flesh. The word of God has always been w/ God & is God’s mind, plan & purpose (logos) & was made flesh in the fullness of time. Gal 4:4 & born of a woman (the seed of a woman will bruise satan’s head Gen 3:15) Until he was born, Yeshua existed only in the mind & heart of God as His word. By His word, God spoke everythig into existance! Yeshua was born to die. A sacrifice, the Passover Lamb i.e. the fulfillment of the feast of Passover. In Phil 2:11 it states….”and every tongue shall confess that Yeshua the Messiah is Lord, to the GLORY OF GOD the FATHER.” NAS It’s to God’s glory, His pleasure, His perfect plan that He has “given” everything to His only begotten Son.
I Cor 15:28 “when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to Him/God that did subject all things unto him/Yeshua that God be All & all’.
May I ask you some qestions??? Why won’t you answer these scriptures? What do we do about all the scriptures that show us:
The Father is greater than the Son
Why call me good? No one but God alone is good.
I can do nothing of myself but the Father in me does the works.
I speak only what I hear the Father speak
I do only what I see my Father do
It pleased the Father to bruise him
Rev 3:12 says Yeshua will write on us, his “new name” of his God.
About Phil 2:6-12. this comes from a Messianic Jew who is very frustrated w/ we Christians & how we’ve violated Hebrew Scripture. Yeshua being every bit the Son of God has legal right to everything that is His Father’s. By his very station as God’s Son & his unfallen, sinles nature, he didn’t have to die. BUT, Yeshua did’nt even consider grasping at his position/equality w/ his Father because he CHOSE to become a servant rather than a king that’s his legal right! He chose rather to do his Father’s will & be the ransome for all those dead in their sins. For our sakes & to bring glory to his Father he bore the shame of the cross & laid his life down willingly even to enduring that shame. Because of this, God raised him, glorified him & “GAVE” him ALL authority over the angels & the kingdom he/Yeshua will rule. “God in him/Yeshua reconciling the world back to Himself/God.” God did that because He loves the Son!!! And because of the Son, we too are joint heirs in that same glory “given” to Yeshua.
Dear Scott, will you answer my questions so I can see???? In His Grip.

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/24/2010 20:51 pm

Candace,

You too are well versed; however, you are well versed in everything but what I have been addressing. In your most recent post it wasn’t until the bottom 1/4th of it that you even began to respond. I only know you through your postings and it’s in respect to this that I am looking for some integrity.

Shall I abandon my challenge based on such a feeble rebuttal as the nuance between “ruler” and “master”? If I rebut your ‘most beautiful’ statement; “….& here’s the most beautiful part of our salvation, he suffered, he wept, he hungered , gave up the simple joys of life & he gave his own life..” with the obvious that MANY men are quite capable of giving up the “simple joys of life” and even giving up their own life for someone else. So what? Even if they are innocent it is not particularly remarkable!

But if I present Philippians 2; “Though he (Yeshua) was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being, he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death - death on a stake as a criminal! Therefore God raised him to the highest place and gave him the name above every name; that in honor of the name given Yeshua, every knee will bow - in heaven, on earth and under the earth and every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is ADONAI.”

ADONAI willingly becoming a criminal for our sakes IS remarkable! How will you nuance your way out of this? Will you abandon YOUR position? Probably not.

Or if we take the simple, overarching truth from the entire OT that God IS God (I AM) and He will not share His glory or worship with another and that His name alone is to be exalted; how is it that Yeshua accepts the worship of men and gets away with it? At the very least, Paul should be declared a heretic for writing Phil 2:9-11! But the text says that God approves this and that it is all to His glory!! Yeshua even receives worship from those IN HEAVEN. Shall we worship a mere man? How is it that God can receive glory by giving HIS worship to one of his creatures without humiliating Himself? Every Orthodox Jew who I’ve encountered almost immediately brings this up because they KNOW Jesus claims to be God and he receives worship in the place of God (John 10:33).

But, perhaps I’m still suffering from brainwashing and I’ve missed the subtleties and nuances of these truths. So, this is why I won’t venture into these other arguments with you until you (or Mark) can provide a cogent response to the implications of The Riddle.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/24/2010 14:56 pm

Hello Scott….I am not cruel & I have not insulted you w/ name calling & disparagement but I have extended much patience,grace & understanding & I walk in integrity. I wish I could see your face & hear your voice so I would know what spirit you are coming from. At times it seems nothing like endeavoring or walking in agape. “the world will know you are My disciples by the love you have for one another”. That is what I have offered you.
I must commend you for your tanacity. You keep coming back. I’ve experienced ones that swear & storm out from much less. I think that’s a good thing if we keep a teachable spirit.
You are very articulate, well versed & you certainly know the scripture but I do believe you may suffer what so many of us have suffered & that’s the continual brainwashing that if Jesus is not God than somehow he is diminished being but a mere man. There is the lie pure & simple. Adam was God’s glorious creation & He/God had great hopes & plans for this new creation made in His image. We were to rule all the earth, take dominion & have unbroken fellowship w/ God. Adam & Eve didn’t even need clothing as they were clothed in the glory of God! We were indeed to be a wonderous creation for our Father’s joy. But Adam fell & all was lost ..But God… had a plan of redemption…Yeshua. God would beget another Adam, the Last Adam w/ the same free will as the 1st & he would be His/God’s only “begotten” son that there would be many sons to follow if Yeshua survived his testings. temptations & sacrifice for our sakes. He paid a HUGE price for us. He didn’t have to, he was sinless. God gave him a new start like unto the 1st Adam, Yeshua did not have the fallen nature we are born with….hence the “Last Adam”. There wouldn’t need to be another if Yeshua carried out His Father’s plan. He had a free will, he could have rebelled at any time but….& here’s the most beautiful part of our salvation, he suffered, he wept, he hungered , gave up the simple joys of life & he gave his own life because of his Great love for his Father & his love & compassion for us. He didn’t have to suffer & die but he knew if he didn’t we’d all be lost for eternity & we would never know intimately the love of the Father as he did. He, like Adam had unbroken fellowship w/ his Father. He knew intimately His heart & that became his heart…hence Father, we are one. If Yehsua were God then his scrifice was nothing, a farce. His temptations too were nothing as God can not be tempted. & if he was God than no matter how you put it …we have 2 Gods! His Father was never on that cross & Yeshua died alone when his Father had to w/draw His Spirit from him for the 1st time ever in his life. He really commended his spirit into the Father’s hands & he really did go 3 days & 3 nights in the bowels of the earth to tell those imprisoned in Abraham’s Bosom…it is finished, I have paid your ransome. For the 1st time since Adam’s fall the way was made once more for unbroken fellowship w/ God & our dead spirits were made alive because Yeshua bled & died as the perfect Lamb of God & the Father was pleased. It was God that raised him from the dead or he would have remained eternally in hell as payment for our sins. He would have done it too because he loves us that much & has his Father’s heart. But God, being so just as He is said no satan! He is sinless & it was God that placed him at His right hand & gave him everything! Including the millennial kingdom he will rule & reign over for a 1000 yrs & then Yeshua will give it all back to God! There is one King of kings & Lord of lords, the Father has “given” that title to His Son. The word “lord” here is ruler, master not LORD that means Yahweh (I AM that I AM!)
I am not dodging your threat or refusing to answer w/ fancy scripture gymnastics. I’m not any of the things you seem to want to accuse me of. I ache to see you set free & embrace the Truth of your Savior’s huge price he paid & the greatness of his love for you.
About Rev 1 & 21 I am inviting you to read the NIV if you have one. As a rule it’s not my bible of choice but it is making very clear the angst you are experiencing w/ God speaking & the Son speaking & who is God & who isn’t. After you have read it & meditated on it before the Father, I would dearly love to continue w/ our discussion. I truly have a heart for you & anyone seeking more truth & to know Him. If you still can’t “see” it than I guess we are done. There’s nothing more I can bring to you. “A man convinced against his will is is of the same opinion still.” God Bless you & I mean that from a heart full w/ love. We don’t have to get nasty w/ one another & we don’t have to strong arm one another into submission but we do need to cover one another in agape & endeavor, forgive 70×7 & keep a teachable spirit. Later, I pray, Candace

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/24/2010 06:54 am

Mark and Candace,

I will concede again that you answered The Riddle, but you have failed miserably to reckon with the consequences of that answer. In my last post I mistakenly wrote Rev 7:14. It should’ve been Rev 17:14. I find it curious how you can answer a riddle but fail to see (or purposely ignore) the implications of it. How many Alphas and Omegas can there be? How many Firsts and Lasts can there be? How many Beginnings and Ends can there be? And now, how many King of Kings and Lord of Lords can there be?? Why do you ignore this? Why do you consider it so insignificant? Where is your adherance to Hebraic roots?

You wax eloquent presenting a case for “only” one God but then implicitly tolerate the notion that more than one person can possess the NAMES of God! Tell me outright; is Jesus King of Kings and Lord of Lords or is he a LIAR? Would God tolerate someone else claiming His names for themself? If so, where is the biblical evidence?? And if Begininng and End doesn’t really mean beginning and end; then just what DOES it mean and where is the evidence for it?

You have both continued to avoid this like a plague. Answering a riddle is just an academic exercise if you fail to grasp just why it is a riddle. If you don’t have an answer then just say so. But how can you say that the Someone speaking with the voice of a trumpet; who claims to be the First and Last is not God? If an angel made that claim, would God tolerate him? Is God just humoring his son Jesus for making such a declaration? But apparently, the part about becoming DEAD is just a little too inconvenient for you. If The Riddle is no riddle at all as you say, then I wait with bated breath for you to explain these “difficulties”. Either Jesus is God or he is a liar. And if he’s a liar, he’s no savior.

Candace, for some reason you think Mark has done an excellent job answering my questions. I think it’s been pathetic; not because his points are inarguable, but because they are diversions. As I’ve said to you, I want your answer to Rev 1 and 21 but you both seem far more interested in hearing your own litany than considering what I have challenged you with. You are both very hard of hearing or very hard hearted. Which is it that prevents you from dealing with these things? I’m looking for some integrity from you.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/24/2010 03:39 am

Scott, Mark is doing an excellent job of answering your questions I was hoping I was too. I answered your riddle at least 2x now. If you’d go back you’d see plainly your riddle of alpha & omega, first & last is no riddle at all. No, I am not a JW & if you’d have read what I had written previously you would have known that too. I am pretty certain you are Oneness & I thank the Father as you are well on your way to coming into the whole truth. Sophmoric huh? I am praying fervently for you & for all who come to this site. There is an abundance of revelation to be had concerning our Father, His Son & His plan for us to become just like Yeshua. If he’s the head & we are his body than it would only make sense that his body/us would be glorious & commensurate to our head. Eph 4:13 “until all of us are united in the faith & in the full knowledge of God’s Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of developement in Messiah.” ISV Thank you, Mark:)

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/23/2010 06:32 am

Scott, Yahweh our father who art in heaven hollowed be his name! Jesus is leading them in prayer to his God and Father. Luke talks about begetting not a passing thru the womb but a creation between God and Mary her Royal line thru david is Jesus DNA and his eternal DNA is thru his father. The first Adam brought death and the second Adam brought eternal life starting with his. All others remain dead and await the reserection. the first fruits. Lets look at the sigular pronouns in Rev 7:14-15 Therefore they are before the throne of God,(not Jesus throne)and serve HIM not them dayh and night in HIS temple,and HE who sits on throne will dwell among them.vrs 17 for the lamb who is in the midst of the throme will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters,And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. One God and father of all and one mediator between God and man the man Jesus I tim 2:5 I Tim 1:17 To God who alone is wise…Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/23/2010 03:50 am

Mark,

Thank you. You are proving The Riddle more and more with each post!

I will not refute 1 Tim. 6:16. God is immortal and eternal and beyond temptation. You say He can’t die and with this I fully agree. But do you not see that these mighty attributes of our Sovereign God were the very things that kept him from rescuing lost humanity? How is it that the almighty God who can do anything he wants, was totally incapable of identifying with the fallen condition of his creation. He loved us so much that he would’ve died for us if he only could’ve. But how would we ever be able to recognize him when he is spirit. And if we could look upon him we would only see him once and then we’d die! How can he relate to our temptations if he himself is un-temptable. This in itself is another riddle.

The answer is; Almighty God COULD do all these things; and he did.., by becoming a man! Man cannot become a God and so save himself. But God could become a man and so save mankind.

Now, go read 1 Tim 6:15 and compare it to Rev 7:14 and 19:16 and tell me: Who is God?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/23/2010 03:10 am

Scott, God can’t die 1Tim 6:16 He alone has imortality!Jesus died, it took God to raise him. God can’t be tempted James 1:13 Jesus on the other Hand was tempted Heb 4:15 showing again He was tempted just like us.Please don’t respond with Phil 2:7 Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/22/2010 22:29 pm

“Dearest Scott or Scott Dale or Scottsdale, Az, I dearly care about every challenge you’ve made & God willing I WILL answer.”

Candace,

What am I to conclude from your statement above? I have only challenged you with one thing; a riddle. A riddle which you have answered correctly while refusing to respond to the obvious ramifications of your own answer. Perhaps God is not willing that you should answer because you keep throwing up smokescreens that have absolutely nothing to do with Revelation 1 and 21.

As I’ve stated before, deal with THESE verses. Mark seems to think that Isaiah 44 is the ultimate proof text and he can’t seem to let it go long enough to respond to the challenge of my riddle. Like you, he’s mocked it and dismissed it because it’s apparently too illogical and “unbiblical” but neither of you can DEAL with it.

You yourself have said;

“And why do you insist on the very unbilical position that God died? If one part of God died than all of God died & now He isn’t God anymore.”

Do you realize how sophmoric your statement is? You call it “unbiblical” and yet the Bible says it. Even your “if/then” analysis is silly because you would have to be God Himself in order to know if your statement were actually true! (Are YOU God?)

Perhaps you and Mark are JW’s. I haven’t heard the kind of rationale you two put forth since they came knocking on my door about a year ago. If I direct you to John 1:1 will you throw up the same tired argument that they do about the “definite article” or do you have a new slant to diminish the Word of God into a created being? But I really don’t care to know; because I want you to deal with The Riddle.., but even though you “dearly care”, you still refuse.

You say;

“I’m not playing any games. I’m not engaged in any scripture dodging. I’m none of those things you are accusing me of. What I am trying to do but to no avail is encourage people to really search the scriptures line upon line.”

But don’t you see that the way to avoid my “accusations” is by reckoning with the answer to The Riddle instead of avoiding IT? Could it be that all your efforts to “encourage people” come to “no avail” because you yourself won’t search “line upon line” with Rev 1 and 21 and the One who DIED?

So you say;

“Using “it’s a mystery” just doesn’t answer that dilemma.”

Perhaps it DOESN’T answer the dilemma. So what?! The scriptures have MANY dilemmas in them. God is not required to answer to our dilemmas. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” Is this not a dilemma also?? Who is God? Where did he come from? How is it possible to exist from eternity past? How can something come out of nothing?? Do you understand all this?? Just ask Job if there are any dilemmas regarding the revelation of the Almighty! But you apparently think that all “mysteries” MUST be revealed.

And yet, the mystery that Yeshua himself claims the very names of God as his own and declares that He died does not seem to intrigue you enough to investigate what it could possibly mean. Go ahead; return to the “Hebraic roots” of “the Beginning and the End”; or will you just ignore it as another “doctrine of men” forged from a “western mindset”?

“..but if it’s just for the fight…”I’m right, you’re wrong”…..I’m done.”

I’m not interested in fighting either but, if necessary, truth is worth fighting over. It’s one of the few things that is. This isn’t about you or me. It’s about the living and active word of God. Just for the record, there’s no need to be sorry. You have not “stepped on my theology” at all. Have you been trying to? My “theology” is of very little consequence so if you CAN step on it, go right ahead. But to paraphrase what you yourself have said, “Let God be true & EVERY man (and woman) a liar.”

The Riddle remains. Will you remain to deal with it or are you “done”.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/22/2010 13:36 pm

Thank you Mark for your encouragement. I am continually reminded of the scripture…”broad is the way to destruction & many enter thereof. Narrow is the gate to eternal life & few find it.” This is a grief to my spirit as the only barrier to “knowing” the TRUTH is pride & an unteachable spirit. Those who are really searching & are seeking God w/ a pure heart…will find it. The rest will be lost in their sins for they have another Christ (II John 1:7)& that I can hardly bare. Satan stole the truth early on after the Book of Acts Church was first established by our Savior. He has done an incredible job of keeping the so called church in utter darkness & deception for over 1600 yrs. Many have been martyred for this very stand that you & I have taken. We’ve endured attack after attack by this same demonic stronghold time & time again by ones who say they are “Christians” but the fruit of their actions is always from the kingdom of darkness. i.e the same spirit that put the Christ to death.
God Bless you, Mark in your quest to help as many who will, come into the truth that’s been stolen all these centuries. There is a Remnant that won’t be silenced & will lay their lives down for the truth of Who Yeshua really is. It’s an honor to meet you & cover you in your journey.

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/21/2010 16:41 pm

Scott, as you can see, is not here to learn but teach… Scott Deal with Is.44 I alone am God who else is there beside me! No one Jesus is even born yet, Yahweh had not raised up his prophet like Moses Deut 18:18 Where Yahweh puts his own words in Jesus mouth. He certainly didn’t think his word was seperate from himself just as his Holy Spirit is of him self. Scott 1 God. Now answer the question, how do you side step 1 one??? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/21/2010 13:38 pm

correction: this site answers some important things you brought up. You deserve the best answer I can provide. I’m sincerely looking for truth, how ’bout you? I’ve dumped a lot of error over the years. I will continue to do so.
www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Ac20_28.html

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/21/2010 07:33 am

I’m not playing any games. I’m not engaged in any scripture dodging. I’m none of those things you are accusing me of. What I am trying to do but to no avail is encourage people to really search the scriptures line upon line. Go back to the early church history & follow out what happened after 325 AD onward. After Constantine created his “state church” paganism was introduced into the true church Yeshua established. This was the prototype of the Catholic Church. Read that history if you want to really know how perverted the scriptures & doctrine became. We are still making our way out of the dark ages & out of Catholicism & it’s anti-semitism.
If I were an accusatory type of person, I would accuse you of being closeminded & refusing to really look at scriptures, resorting to only your “pet Verses”. But I am not. Show me just one scripture, just one that uses the phrase “God the Son”. And why do you insist on the very unbilical position that God died? If one part of God died than all of God died & now He isn’t God anymore. Using “it’s a mystery” just doesn’t answer that dilemma. God sent His son that we MIGHT know Him/God. The Son of God/Son of man is the Lamb of God. The Last Adam “made” in the likeness of sinful flesh”. Ro 8:3. The price for our redemption was “a human blood sacrifice” from a man that did not have our fallen nature. i.e. “The Christ”. The 1st Adam lost it, the Last Adam purchased it back w/ his blood (God does not bleed) Why are you dodging these scriptures? Every scripture must be in harmony w/ every other one. Why can’t Yeshua be just who he says he is & why can’t he be of the seed of a woman as God has said in Genesis & why can’t he be the seed of Abraham & the son of David & an Heir & we joint heirs? If Yeshua is God he’s not a seed of anyone nor is he an heir…all would be his just by being God. What do you do w/ his geneology in Matt & Luke??? Why is that even in the bible if he’s God?? And why when it’s all been said & done does Yeshua hand the kingdom all back to God that God be all in all????
Unbiblical terms: trinity, God the Son, pre-existant, incarnate, eternal son, godhead to name a few. If Yeshua is God than why does he call the Father , his God??? Are there 2 god, three??? I’m confused. Did God stop being God while He died on a cross? And who was God calling out to when he cried “my God, my God why have You forsaken me?” And when Yeshua said it is finished & he commended his spirit into the the hands of the Father….who was doing what? One God, Two Gods, no God?
I’m so sorry to be stepping all over your theology that you are holding dear but it’s really time to let God be true & every man a liar. It’s time to let doctrines of men go & get back to our Hebraic roots & understand the lanugage the bible was written in. And it’s really time to stop reading the word of God w/ our Western mindset. We’re getting it wrong. I really don’t want to offend & I don’t want to argue over God’s word. This is where I bow out. If we can truly “ENDEAVOR” to keep the Unity of the Spirit until….” then I’m in & I am sympathic, understanding, compassionate & cover you w/ agape but if it’s just for the fight…”I’m right, you’re wrong”…..I’m done. Please read “Christanity’s Self Inflicted Wound”. More love than you know, Candace www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/tinity/verses/Ac20-28.html

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/21/2010 07:21 am

Candace,

Your response is exactly what I hoped it would not be. You are very good at the old “bait and switch” tactics typically employed by cultists who can’t face up to certain texts. Instead of dealing with the consequences of the scriptures posed by the “riddle”, you just blow right by them and pour out your litany of pet verses. Mark is no different. C’mon, deal with the texts from Revelation 1 and 21. How many persons can lay claim to the names: “beginning and end”; “first and last”; “alpha omega”?

Regarding your pet verses, I find it strange that you should rely so heavily upon David Stern’s translation of Acts 20:28 while completely dismissing Robert Young’s work; let alone the twenty some other translations and versions that disagree with Stern. In fact, I would be very curious to know how Stern justifies his interpretation when there is absolutely no reference to a “son” in the text (neither explicit nor implicit).

IMHO, Paul’s reference to “God” in v28 is not to God the Father; but rather, God the SON. The blood came from the Son; not the Father. Hence; Paul is saying that Jesus is God.

Your dodging reference to Melchizedek is also a curious one. Melchizedek, who; as a TYPE of the Son of God, had NO “beginning of days”. Last time I checked, this was an attribute exclusive to God alone!

Again I say; deal with the verses from Revelation and quit dodging the riddle and making up your own interpretations. There are dozens of other texts we could both parade out but I will stick with these. How about you? What will you say; what argument will you rely on to deny that there can be only One who is “beginning and end”? How will you do it without making Yeshua a liar??

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/21/2010 05:55 am

Candace is so right on the money, This is not as hard as we’ve been led to believe… One God and father of all 1 cor 8:4 Have a great Feast of Tabernacle’s Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/20/2010 22:05 pm

Hi Scott…I’ve missed you. I DO understand it! Yeshua IS NOT the Father. God IS the Father , the ONLY TRUE GOD. If Yeshua is God than he’s his own Father & that’s just nonsense. He was the only BEGOTTEN OF God. I addressed this way back about a horrendous mistranslation. Look it up, do research. In the “Complete Jewish Bible” Acts 20:28 reads: Watch out for youselves, and for all the flock in which the Ruach Hakodesh (Sacred Breath) has placed you as leaders, to shepherd God’s Messianic Community, which he won for Himself at the cost of “HIS OWN SON’S BLOOD”. GOD CAN NOT DIE, HE CAN NOT BLEED. HE IS SPIRIT. HE RAiSED YESHUA FROM THE DEAD! Yeshua did not raise himself! Yehsua means…”YAHWEH SAVES”! Yeshua is human like us made like unto his brethren in every way. Is God His own mediator???? Is God His own High priest???? That too is nonsense. If you understood God’s ancient feasts & His Levitical Priesthood, you would clearly understand how Yeshua is now THAT High Priest that is ever before God on our behalf. In the OT the high priest could only go before God one time a yeat i.e feast of atonement” & at that time only were the people’s sins forgiven. If that high priest did something unpleasing to God, he was stuck dead & no one was permitted to enter the Holy of holies to drag him out. They tied a rope to the priests’s ankle just in case. Yeshua, our High Priest Forever, after the order of Melchizedek, goes into the Holy of Holies continuously for us. He is ever BEFORE GOD!!! He’s not standing before himself.
Why do so many get the concept of one so messed up???? Reread Yeshua’s prayer to the Father (not to himself) in John 17:21 “that they may ALL be ONE. Just as You, Father are in me & I am in You, I pray that they will be one in us that the world will know that YOU have sent me!” We’re ONE in Christ! Does that make us all the same being???? A man & a woman mary & now they are ONE FLESH do they no longer exist as 2 seperate beings???? Or are we all of one heart, one mind , one purpose? I can anwser EVERY single question where scripture SEEMS to be saying something it’s not. By the grace of God I know enough Greek & Hebrew to not be stubbled by false & incorrect translations. I will glady help you find the truth if truth is what you really desire. In His Grip, Candace

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/20/2010 21:15 pm

Candace,

Congratulations! You solved the riddle!

Yeshua is the “Someone speaking with the voice of a trumpet blast”. For it is only Yeshua who is the Alpha and Omega; the Beginning and the End; the First and the Last; unless you know of another who could make these same claims. But then, there would be two “Firsts” and two “Lasts” and we know that cannot be unless we arbitrarily change the meaning of the words.., right?

But how can two persons be ONE person?
“I and my Father are one.” (Jn 10:30)
“..because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” (Jn 10:33)

But Isaiah says; “apart from me there is no God.” Could it really be that Yeshua is NOT apart from God but that he truly is ONE with God??

But wait a minute; the “Someone” speaking also claimed to have DIED and come back to life. Surely, it was only Yeshua who did such a thing. God the Father almighty could not have died could he??
“Be shepherds of the church of GOD, which he bought WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.” (Acts 20:28)

According to the scriptures, Candace, Jesus and the Father are two distinct persons and yet the same scripture declares that they are ONE! You don’t have to understand it, you just need to believe it. If you don’t, you will soon begin to change the scriptures and I know you know that would be a grave mistake.

And since you have answered the riddle correctly, I now invite you to agree with your discovery and simply trust God to give you any further understanding that you might need.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/20/2010 20:32 pm

p.s. I found it! Rev 4:1-3 goes hand in hand w/ Rev 1:10,15…..it’s Yeshua!

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/14/2010 18:59 pm

Scott, I must admit I am stumped also. The few translations I have turned too say….”his voice like the SOUND OF MANY WATERS.” not “trumpet blast”. The one speaking to John is Yeshua, the risen One. He was dead but now he is alive. Rev goes on to discribe the meaning, Yeshua is walking among HIS churches. He’s the head of the church & God is the Head of him (I Cor 11:3)
Yahweh Elohim/God speaks many times in the book of Rev & in the OT that He is the alpha & omega. He has always been, is now & will be forever. “I AM the LORD & I CHANGE NOT!” meaning He alone is God, a Spirit w/ no beginning & no end. HE IS NOT a man that He should lie….He changes not! Yeshua on the other hand tells us he is the one that was dead & now is alive because the Father raised him from the dead. He does not change either….I am the same yesterday, today & forever…a man now glorified. He is the lst & the last of the “NEW CREATION”…US!!!!!! FIRSTBORN OF many BRETHREN! You are clearly confusing the Son w/ the Father. They are 2 distinct beings. God Almighty Who has no beginning & no end & the Son of man & the Son of God who was
“BEGOTTEN ON THIS DAY” from the SEED of a woman, the SEED of Abraham & the son of David HEIR to his/David’s throne, the promised Son & Messiah (anointed one)made like unto his Brethren in EVERYWAY learned obedience by the things he suffered, was tempted & DIED! Don’t confuse the voice of the Great I AM w/ the voice of the now Glorified Man/Yeshua, Motal changed into immortal by the hand of God! Same promise is made to those who believe on him/Yeshua. Do you realize even in heaven, right now Yeshua STILL has a GOD! “We have One mediator between God & men…the MAN Christ Jesus. A High Priest forever (not an angel) after the order of Melchizedek (Heb 7:17) He is God’s Christ,(Rev 12:10) He says in Rev 3:12-14 “I will make him who overcomes a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, I will write on him the name of MY GOD & the name of MY GOD’S city.” In I Cor 15:24-28 Yehsua says: after all his enemies have been put under his feet he/Yeshua will turn over his milleniel kingdom back to God that God be ALL & ALL. Yeshua is clearly subservient to his God.
Sorry I’m so lenghty but I LOVE the Word of God & it’s been a great pleasure sharing my heart w/ you. God Bless you Mightily! & I’ll never get these taxes done before the deadline:( Candace

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/14/2010 17:58 pm

Candace,

If you have explained the riddle as you say you have, then I can only conclude that you have answered the riddle with a riddle of your own; one so complex that I don’t know what the question is.

A simple one or two word answer will suffice to the question:

“who then is the Someone speaking with the voice of a trumpet blast??”

The answer will either be right or it will be wrong.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/14/2010 12:31 pm

Oh Sweet Scott…you missed it. I explained your riddle. Study what I said a little more & it will become clear. I must commend you on your willingness to ponder & you are a gentleman. I would like to invite you to study an awesome website I’ve just stumbled onto. It’s www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/pamphlets/jesus.htm It’s so very informative & quite accurate. Of course I haven’t read everything & there could be errors I don’t agree w/ but for the most part it’s one of the better websites I’ve found. And again, I am not a Christadelphian as I think these ones are. Forgive all my typos….I go too fast:( In His Grip, Candace

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/14/2010 06:19 am

Mark,

You rhetorically ask; “Am I missing something here?”

The simple answer is “yes”.

Not only would it be helpful for you to study the names of God; but it would be helpful for you to examine the distinctives regarding the words rendered “angel”. An angel is first of all a messenger. It can be a human being or a heavenly being. It is descriptive of the “task” of the individual (ie: one who is commissioned to deliver a message).

The second distinctive has to do with the “nature” of the individual. Any heavenly being is considered an angel whether creature or creator; holy or fallen. The simple fact that the being comes from heaven makes it an “angel”.

Hebrews 1:5 is making a reference to the many created heavenly beings as opposed to the one and only Begotten heavenly Being. In Revelation 10:1,5,8-10; Jesus himself is called a mighty angel. John the Baptist is also called an angel (angelos; malak) in Malachi 3 and Matthew 11.

Lastly, the unique distinctive “Angel of the Lord” is often used in conjunction with the manifest presence of God himself making it impossible to separate the attributes of God from that of the Angel. This occurs numerous times in the OT. It is often referred to as a “theophany”. Here’s an example from Judges 2:1-

“And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, ‘I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said , I will never break my covenant with you’.”

And here’s a good one from Genesis 22:15-18-

“And the ANGEL OF THE LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, ‘By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed MY VOICE’.”

Any one of these “theophanies” could’ve been God the Son Himself!

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/14/2010 06:04 am

Candace,

In order to solve the riddle you need to answer the riddle’s question:

“So, if the Eternal God is God; and he cannot die, who then is the Someone speaking with the voice of a trumpet blast??”

Everything that you have said in your last post is interesting but it doesn’t even approach answering the question at hand.

Will you do so when you return later?

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/14/2010 04:53 am

Every body read Scotts rebutal about no old testament verse where Jesus is speaking… Then he brings up the Angel of the Lord, am I missing something here? Look At the Top OF the Page Heb 1:1-5 TO WHICH OF THE ANGELS DID HE EVERY CALL SON! Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/14/2010 01:58 am

Hello Scott Dale, I have but a few minutes but I am truly wanting to answer your “riddle”. Without an understanding of Hebrew there is confusion but I will try to clear up just a few things for you. YAHWEH IS God Almighty! There is none before Him of after Him (Alpha & Omega)…period. ALL that is & has been created was & is created by Him Alone. Is 44:24. The LORD our God is One LORD. God is Spirit (Jn4:24) Yeshua/Jesus was given his Father’s name but only one facet of the Name above All names….Yahweh Saves.(jn 5:43)(Matt 1:20)Because the FULLNESS of God/Deity dwelt in him (Col 2:9;Col 1:19)Yeshua can surly be called Emannuel/God w/ us. II Cor 5:18 states God was in Christ(anointed one) reconciling the world back to Himself,God. Therefore God IS our ONLY Savior & He saved us TROUGH His ONLY Begotten Son! In Isaiah 9:6 is where the confusion may begin….”his name shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace.” We think we are reading Yeshua IS ALL these things but the scriptures clearly are saying…HIS NAME shall be called these things. He has His Father’s Name which is ALL these things & more!!!! Yeshua is “the image of the INVISIBLE God. Col 1:15 & Yeshua is the 1st born of a New Creation! The 1st born of MANY Brethern! I Tim 3:16 & Ro 8:29. He is the Passover Lamb (a sacrifice)the unleaven Bread (no sin) and First Fruit of the harvest indecating many more sheaves to come from the harvest being just like the First Fruit/Yeshua! NOT GOD/Sons! He is the LAST ADAM/man! What the 1st Adam forfeited the Last Adam bought back w/ his blood! God can not bleed, die or be tempted. Yeshua endured them all for our sakes. Yeshua is the Author & Finisher, the first & the last of our faith & of this NEW creation….his Body, his Church. And all authority for this new creation has been given him by GOD! Jn 5:43; Matt 28:18.
In the book of Rev we see both the Father & the Son. With my Jewish Bible it becomes more clear Who is speaking. In Rev 1:4 it reads….To the seven Messianic communities in the province of Asia: Grace & shalom to you from the One who is, who was & who is coming; from the sevenfold Spirit before His throne; AND FROM Yeshua the Messiah, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead & ruler of the earth’s kings. To him, the one who loves us, who has freed us ffom our sins at the cost of his/Yeshua’s blood, who has caused us to be a kingdom,that is cohanim/priest for GOD, his FATHER. In verse 8 “I am the A & the Z,” says ADONAI, God of heaven’s armies, the One who is, who was & who is coming. (When adonai is spelled w/ all caps it always means THE LORD our GOD. Lower case or capital a only means lord or master etc. LORD always mean Yahweh. I have so much more for you but I have run out of precious time. I will return later. Much Agape & you are in my prayers…Candace

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/13/2010 22:42 pm

Yo Marky,

I can’t give you even one verse in the OT where Jesus is speaking; but neither can you give me one verse in the OT that says Jesus never spoke in it. How do you know that the Angel of the Lord that met with Joshua before marching around Jericho was not Jesus? How do you know that the Angel of the Lord that sat with Gideon under the oak tree was not Jesus? How do you know that the “man” who visited Daniel on the banks of the Tigris was not Jesus? In fact, how do you know that it wasn’t Jesus himself who walked in the garden with Adam in the cool of the evening?

The truth is; you DON’T know! But if you had taken some time to study the names of God according to their Hebraic roots and meaning you might think differently about it.., not to mention, you might then be able to solve the riddle which you have conveniently ignored.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/12/2010 19:09 pm

Yo Scotty, Is 44:5, Is 44:24 Yahweh, father, God Alone no jesus no second god, give me one scripture in the old testament where Jesus is speaking or saying anything,I’ll show thousands of Yahweh speaking working with and interacting with his,Mark 10:6, not there creation… Icor.8:4-7 there is no wiggle room. Explicite one, not two, definitly not three, but ONE God and Father of all… Scott Does GOD Have A GOD? Jesus has a God therefore he is not GOD John 20:17 God does not have a God because he alone is God. Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/11/2010 17:52 pm

Kinda buckshot posts here - let me look for the anvil platen here. R U all agreed that Jesus was 100% MAN + 100% God (or 50/50)? If not - then Jesus crucifiction was MOOT - only 100% MAN could pay the price of Adam’s rebellion BUT ONLY if he were 100% innocent (GOD). If these requirements are not meant - it loses in the Court of Law. I think it is rather evident that God’s intention all along was for an incarnate God/Man - and Satan was the intended fall guy - any MAN who falls with him will be of the same “ME FIRST/I’M RIGHT” spirit.

By Dino (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/11/2010 06:25 am

Hi Scott, Come let us reason together. May we have a spirit of humility & a teachable spirit & ENDEAVOR to keep the unity of the Spirit(in the bond of peace)until we ALL come into the unity of the Faith in the knowledge of the Son of God attaining to the full measure of the stature of Christ (anointed one) Eph 4:3, 13 We are to become just like Christ! Being transformed into his likeness. Not that we become God but sons of God just like our elder Brother who was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh.Ro 8:3
I really want to answer your questions & I will do my best w/ limited time & space. 1st: we must be willing to follow biblical hermeneutics. To lift scripture out of context or build a doctrine out of one scripture, ignoring all the others pertaining to that subject will always bring error. i.e. “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.” There being no private interpetation, we should all be able to come to the same conclusion & really enter into “The Unity Of THE Faith”! Yeshua came w/ one message of The Kingdom, one truth, not many denominations & doctrines & creeds….One. It behooves us all to be as the Bereans & search the scriptures daily to see if these things be true or not. 2: Yeshua has His Father’s name but only one facet of that name above every name. God IS Yahweh! I AM THAT I AM, all that My people will ever need! Yeshua/Jesus literally means….Yahweh Saves or Yahweh is Savior. Yahweh/God anointed His Christ(Rev 12:10) to be that means to redeem us back to God! Christ meaning Anointed One means the Anointer/God is Greater. Yehsua being the perfect Lamb of God is the antitype of every lamb sacrificed since the time Yahweh institued His feasts. 3: as much as we hate to admit it, there are many mistranslations, errors & a definite trinitarian bent to our bibles. The perversion against the orginal manuscripts began in the 3rd, 4th & 5th centuries. When the Catholic Institution became a surpreme power, all manuscripts were confiscated & the common people no longer had access to the word of God. The anti-semitism was so violent, the C.Church was hell bent on destorying all our Hebraic roots & kill every Jew. The pure word of God was translated into Latin & perverted into what we now know as the Catholic Religion.(dead religion rather than relationship w/ Father & Son ) We’ve been making our way out of the dark ages ever since & those embracing our Hebraic roots are coming back to the truth of God’s Word, undefiled w/ doctrines of ungodly men. Being trapped in our Western mindset robs us of understanding the true meaning of Hebrew/Greek words & idioms of that day. It’s a wonder any of us have even been saved! But God…….by His infinite Grace & Mercy, there remains enough unadulterated Word for those who are diligently seeking Him!!! May I humbly recommend 3 incredible books written by godly men who love God’s word & His people & have been ruthlessly persecuted for their stand. “One God & One Lord”; “Christianity’s Self Inflicted Wound” & (I love this one) “Messianic Church Arising”. If you dare, you’ll have more truth than you might be willing to take in….but….KNOW THE TRUTH & THE TRUTH WILL MAKE YOU FREE! Dearest Scott or Scott Dale or Scottsdale, Az, I dearly care about every challenge you’ve made & God willing I WILL answer. But right now I must go & I’ll be back as time permits. W/ much Agape, be Blessed, Candace p.s. no,I’m not Unitarian, Arian, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, Christadelphian or any of these! I am a child of God, redeemed back to Him by the blood of the Lamb, my Savior, Brother , Friend & Bridegroom & I eagerally await & prepare my heart for His return.

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/2/2010 17:40 pm

Mark,

Your rebuttal is so full of holes it is simply not worth responding to. I suggest you lay your faulty beliefs aside long enough to AT LEAST study the Names of God. After that, try again to solve the riddle.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/2/2010 11:02 am

Scott your riddle as you called it, Rev. 1:17 Fear not I”am the first, Same I’am from John 8:58 in which Jesus is telling the Pharisses that he is before Abraham and Abraham rejoiced to see the Messiah the one whom Yahweh raised up from among the line of Jessie Deut 18:18 back to Rev.1 17 As you can imagine the fear in Johns mind and Jesus is declaring to John I AM the first Human being to ever recieve Eternal life forever! He couldn’t of made this statement if he ever had life before.So he declares being the first in creation From the human to the spiritual. ICor 15:45-46 the physical first then comes the spiritual. This second creation from Yahweh now paves the way for all mankind. He is the first and last because he is the way and the truth and the life. Nothing here about prexistance… Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/2/2010 03:04 am

So sorry Scott Dale…I’m swamped w/ a million pressing things on my plate. I am looking forward to addressing your questions. I just don’t want to engage in an endless battleif you’re right I’m wrong. I am only 2 days new to this site. As of yet I don’t know what kind of persecution, if any, these brethren will give me but I do know the horrible onslaught my husband & I have been enduring for over 5 yrs now. It’s the same spirit, it never changes. I keep looking for the saints that are walking in the love Yeshua discribed….”they will know you are My disciples by the love you have for one another”. It’s a love that will literally lay itself down for another. I must admit I don’t find that very often if ever. I promise Scott Dale, I will answer you. I am not avoiding you in any way. It’s corp tax time & I’m so very far behind, In His Grip….Candace

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/1/2010 05:56 am

Candace and Mark,

If you have a persecution complex, it is of your own choosing. I see where no one on this thread has “risen up against you like Satan himself”.

On the contrary, you both seem bent on ignoring scriptures that declare the divinity of Christ. I quoted from Philippians and you never addressed it.

You seem to have trouble with the idea that if Jesus is God and Jesus died; then God died and (apparently) that simply cannot be! But what if the scriptures clearly declare it? Will you believe it then?

I have a riddle for you:

Is it true that Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty says of Himself in Isa. 44:6; “I am the FIRST and I am the LAST; APART FROM ME THERE IS NO GOD”?

Is it not also true that Jesus the Son declares in Rev. 22:13; “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the FIRST and the LAST, the Beginning and the End”?

And finally, is it not also true that Someone “like a son of man” in Rev. 1:17-18 shouts with a voice as a trumpet blast; “I am the FIRST and the LAST. I am the Living One; I WAS DEAD, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever”.

So, if the Eternal God is God; and he cannot die, who then is the Someone speaking with the voice of a trumpet blast??

If you can answer this riddle correctly, I will be happy “to hear your side & why you believe the way you do”.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/31/2010 21:03 pm

I couldn’t agree w/ you more Mark. This is where the division & heated debates arise. Yehusa is THE SON OF GOD not “God the Son” which can be found No where in all of Scripture. It’s refreshing indeed to hear a few others begin to step out & declare the truth. It’s been our grievious experience when confronted by our so called Christian Brethren….”is Jesus God”, rather then having a teachable spirit they rise up against us like satan himself. They don’t want to hear our side & why we believe the way we do. They would crucify us it were legally possible. We have encountered the “same” spirit in our brethren that put Yeshua to death. I’ve wept many tears for my unteachable brethren that have cast us out in a self righteous attitude & never seem to care enough about our eternal salvation to help us come into truth if we are truly deceived. Instead they treat us like we have the plague & warn all our friends to avoid us lest the same “angel of light” jump on them. By their very rejection & errogance proves what spirit they are of. If they were truly walking in Agape they would be eager to sit down & “reason together” but they never do. They will always argue using unbiblical words & concepts standing on doctrines, creeds & traditions of men rather than the pure Word of God. I’ve never felt more alone but neither would I trade the Awesome Revelation of knowing Who the Son of God truly is! He’s “The Lamb of God” not God the Lamb. Our spotless, sinless sacrifice that every lamb ever sacrificed was pointing to. They were but the shadow, Yeshua is the fulfillment! It’s worth All the persecution I will ever endure & I thank Father He has found me worthy to suffer for His namesake. More love than mere words can express. Candace

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/31/2010 16:55 pm

All I’am saying is give peace a chance! Your mind has inflected the dislextic understanding… The reverse of the counterfit. Jesus is the Son not the Father, brother or partner of Yahweh… Yahweh Jehovah father LORD Adonia eternal and in English the Title GOD almighty Jesus posses none of these titles. Jesus is the meadiator between God and man the man. 1tim 2:5 For there is ONE God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus. So now you can start to have a personal relationship with the father who is the only true God. Jesus is the path to the one and only true God , his God and your God Yahweh father… Peace Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/31/2010 15:18 pm

Candace,

“I don’t know how to give you my email address w/out making myself vulnerable to an attack by everyone????”

I believe I understand your intent. I too hate opening myself up to pointless attack and fruitless debate. However, as important as our Hebraic roots are, there is no more divisive issue with an Orthodox Jew than the divinity of Jesus. It requires thick skin to venture a rebuttal. But you said you have “some wonderful truths to share”. If they are truly wonderful, I don’t think you have anything to fear on this forum.

It’s just that I can’t imagine a more wonderful truth than:

“Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death– even death on a cross”

for my sins.

If your “truths” are more wonderful than this, please share the “good news” with everyone on the forum.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/31/2010 12:43 pm

Dearest Scott Dale, I would very much like to respond personally to you if I may. If you are willing to give me your email address, I have some wonderful truths to share. I am not interested in a heated debate or fighting over God’s pure word. I am only interested in those who want to understand the bible from a Hebraic perspective. Knowing the language the Word of God was actually written in makes ALL the difference in truly understanding what Yahweh, Elohim (God) was speaking to us through His prophets. There is a glorious unfolding of revelation for those who will diligently ask, knock, seek….with much Love, Candace. I don’t know how to give you my email address w/out making myself vulnerable to an attack by everyone????

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/31/2010 07:16 am

If you are saying that Jesus is not God, then we have a verrry big problem on our hands theologically. Referring to Jesus as “God the Son” is most definitely NOT heresy. Stripping Jesus of his Divinity most definitely IS heresy. Don’t try to comprehend the nature of God. How can the mortal comprehend the immortal? How can the finite comprehend the infinite? How can the pot comprehend the potter?

Unless God reveals himself to us through his word; we know NOTHING! All we will ever know is what he has CHOSEN to reveal; we do not know what he has NOT revealed. And what he has revealed is that Jesus is fully God and fully Man.

We don’t have to comprehend it in order to believe it.

By Scott Dale (wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/31/2010 03:14 am

Thank you, Mark!!!! So few understnad “THE SON OF GOD vs God the the Son” which is heresy! If Yeshua is God than God died! Yeshua clearly STILL has a God as “the Glorified Man”, “The LAST Adam” seated at the right hand (place of power) of the Father. i.e. 2 Cor 11:30-31 the God & Father of the Lord Jesus.; Eph 1:3; Acts 2:33; Eph 1:17; 2 Pet 1:16-17; Matt 17:1-5; 2Pet 1:18; 1Pet 1-3; John 20:17. In heaven, NOW, Yeshua speaks of his God….Rev 3:2; Rev 3:12-14….the temple of his God, name of his God, city of his God decending from his God with his New Name! Yeshua is our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek FOREVER, our Intercessor & Mediator, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS!!!! In the Complete Jewish Bible in 1 Jn 4:1-3 reads if we don’t believe Yeshua came as a “human being” than we have another Christ. If we have another Christ, we don’t have the Father & if we don’t have the Father…we DON”T have salvation! This is a very serious situation & I emplore, beg & cry out for each & every one to search the scriptures for TRUTH! In His Grip, Candace S.

By Candace Sommerfeld (wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/30/2010 19:07 pm

God said, “Your throne, O God, is eteranl” Hebrew 1:9

Isaiah prophesied of Jesus, “His name shall be everlasting Father” Isa.9:6

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/6/2010 22:25 pm

What Im saying is that Jesus is the son Of the one and only true God Mark 12:28-32 Jesus has a God. God Yahweh father has no God for he is God alone. Is 44:6-8 Thank you Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/6/2010 18:06 pm

I am sorry, Mark, I failed to understand that you are not contending that Jesus was an angel or anything else, but that he is a mere mortal man. But for me He is my God and my Lord and it won’t help me to understand otherwise. You raised the question calling for others’ views and now it is upto you to share your views.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/3/2010 00:13 am

Correction in Heb.1:1-5

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/30/2010 20:01 pm

I will state for the third time Jesus was never an Angel or anything else he was a man born of a women like you and me the difference is his father is Yahweh the one and only true God. The point was the father in 2tim was saying he in past times spoke to us through other means but now that his son has come into existence he has spoken through him.
Mark I will answer the rest when Im sure you understand this.

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/30/2010 20:00 pm

I don’t contend against 1 Timothy 2:5, for Jesus Christ is truly and fully Man. There is no better mediator between God and men, for He is both truly and fully Man and truly and fully God, as stated in Phil. 2:6-7. (To contend that Jesus is not man is to have the spirit of antichrist, and to contend that he is not God is to have the Spirit of the Arch enemy of God, as John clearly brings our in his epistles.)You are drawing attention to margin where it is written privileges to explain how he emptied himself. But you put the text even out of the margin. Here it is stated that he was God, but emptied himself, that is of privileges as God. But you try to hide that and say it refers to his kingship! Yes, he was God and he became man!
You set out to prove from Hebrew 1 that Jesus is one of the angels. I have replied that it is not so. You attempt to lower Jesus by putting him in the category of created angelic beings. But suppose, as you believe that Jesus is one of the angels, are you not suggesting the pre-existence of Jesus! You have not explained John 12:41, where it is said that Jesus is Yahweh seen by Isaiah in chapter 6 of the book. The New World Translation in its later edition even omits the cross-reference John12:41 and Isaiah 6:1!
Ezekiel show in his vision (1:26-28 ) “the appearance of a man above upon it.” It is explained there as, “This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD”. How do you explain this appearance of man in the visions of God? (verse 1)
And yes, as stated in Isaiah 44 and elsewhere, there is no beside the Lord. But have you taken into consideration Isaiah 48:16 “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me?” where there is a refererence to the Lord God and His Spirit sending I AM? Or have you considered Isaiah 40: 3-5 telling about the “Preparing the way for the LORD…… a highway for our God” and that it applies to Jesus in Matthew 3?
Well, Lexicon like that of BDB or the concordance like that of Strongs gives different meaning or even shades of meaning of a word. But the interpretation depends on the text and its context. Now let us read the text like this: “And the purpose was made flesh.” And there are those who would give meaning to it like this: “The plan and purpose of God is materialized”. But the text is in fact telling how about real incarnation-Jesus as man! It is not at all just a philosophical thinking. If becoming flesh doesn’t mean becoming man, how would you say that Jesus is man?
There is comparison given to understand who Jesus is: God revealing God. When we talk of the word, we also know that there is a thought preceeded to it. Thought is the God invisible, the word is the God visible. The son of God, the God-kind reveals the Father whom no man has ever seen.
As for I AM: Call it a title if you like. But whose title is it in the Old Testament? Let me say it: Yahweh! And in New Testament that title is used by Jesus for himself.
Yes, the wise men did bring gifts to the newly born king of the Jews, but the simple shepherd had a higher revelation than the knowledge the wise men had. At the command of God, the angels came and sang praises to God and proclaimed, even before baptism or resurrection of Jesus, the one born in Bethlehem is Christ the Lord! Even before resurrection Jesus was God as was demonstrated by his transfiguration! The disciples came to know who their Lord was!
The Arian controversy is still alive, but the Bible has to say differently! I have many things to say on this but with this post I conclude.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/29/2010 23:04 pm

I Tim 2:5 is showing that Jesus is not Yahweh and that he is a man.John 17:5 The glory which Jesus had with Yahweh–present to Yahwehs mind as his purpose.Brown, Driver and Briggs lexicon Clarendon press,1968,p 768,86 Romans 8″28-30 we as christians have this glory. John 8:58 verse 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham is the question yes I am before him in greatness is context of this verse not the capitolization of the I AM like in John 1:1 The word was with God or the WORD was with God. Remember in exodus the I AM that I AM is a statement not a name, his name is Yahweh.If you understand the monotheistic old testament Is.44 I alone who else is there beside me” no Jesus yet ten thousand personal pronouns when you get to the greek new testament copied trinitarians you won’t stumble as easy on the verse here and there that imply preexistance. Like I saw satan fall like lighting in luke 10:18 It doesn’t say when. again read the context of the previous verses.Phil 2:6-7 some say emptied himself the margin says privilges he was born king of the jews thats why the wise men brought him gifts and paid hommage. Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/29/2010 00:26 am

I may add further:

Jesus prayed to His Father, “And now, Father, glorifiy me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” ( John 17:5)Jesus also therefore told the Jews, “Before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus pre-existed eternally. So although Matthew and Luke starts their gospels with the details of the birth of Jesus, telling about the Incarnation, John starts Jesus’ story far ahead in the past eternity,even when nothing was created, for all things were created by Jesus the Word of God. And the Word was God. What God was the Word was. And if the Word is God, He is uncreated. The word begotten used for Jesus as the Son of God shows His nature, that he is God-kind.(John 1:1-17) It points to his preeminance as the creator of all, both the visible and invisible.(Colosians 1:15-20). We can know God from ONLY and All that the Bible says. Just a few favorite verses will not do. We do so at our risk.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/28/2010 23:36 pm

We have also to take into consideration Titus 2:13 “appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ” alongwith 1 Timothy 2:5. What about John 12:41 read with Isaiah 6?

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/26/2010 22:25 pm

Matt.1:18 The genesis of Jesus Luke 1:35 the begetting the begining of Jesus the messiah, Prophecied by the father thru out the old testament. Heb 1:1-5 who in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by his son. Meet the real Jesus the created son of the one God and father of all.I Tim 2:5
Thank you Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/26/2010 19:56 pm

Mark seems to convey that we should read the text of Hebrew 1;5 as, “For which of the OTHER angles did he ever call son.”-thus including Jesus as os one of the angels.Anyone would agree that the insertion or reading the word OTHER like this is an unwarranted addition and hense unwarranted interpretation.Now please also read the preecding post #3.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/24/2010 23:26 pm

Mark seems to convey that Jesus is after all one of the angels on the basis of the text “For which of the angels did he ever call a son?” (Hebrew 1:5)

The answer to the the question, as discussed in the first chapter of Hebrew, is “To none of the angels He ever called son.” or “He never called any of the angels a son.”This excludes Jesus from being one of the angels.It is at our risk that we may put the answer like, “For of the angels He he never called son to any angel including Jesus.” Had God never called any of the angels son including Jesus,why should He call Jesus, if he too is an angel, His son now?

Jesus was not one of the created angels for He is God (Heb.1:9) and He cannot be God if created. Jesus was made lower than angels for a little while (Heb.2:9). This points to the fact that He was above all angels. Even in His lower state, the angels were commanded to worship Jesus (Heb. 1:60, for he was and is God. He is restored to His superior state and enthroned in heaven. All the angels worship Him there (Revelation 4)So Jesus is not of the class of the created angelic beings. Melchizedek gives but a faint representation of Jesus the son of God. Melchizedek is,as goes the record of geneology or life history, without begining or end, like the son of God, who really is without begining or end.(Heb.7:3) He is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Why try to lower down the One whom God has exalted? The angels are the mininstering spirits,(Heb.1:14) where the Lord Jesus Christ is the supreme One mininstered unto in Heaven.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/24/2010 23:19 pm

Heb 1:5 No one seems to answer the question that is most odvious which is, Was Jesus ever an angel ” for to which of the angels did he ever call son. Does anybody disagree? Mark

By Mark (wrote 124 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/23/2010 18:22 pm

1) Angel= “mal’ak” is the Hebrew word & “angelos” is the Greek word.The meaning of the word is “messenger.”
2)Angel is supernatural created being.Angels are created to serve God.They are sent to deliver the message of God or to carry out the commands of God.They do not marry.They are not given in marriage.Matthew 22:30.An angel is a little higher in dignity than man.Psalm 8;Hebrews 2.
3)Angels are called “the sons of God” in Job 1:6 & 38:7.(Job is a poetical book.)Angels are not begotten sons.They are not equal to the “only begotten son.”(John3:16).The “Son of God” is identified with God.He is the deity.
Read Gal.4:4.
4)We can find the ministry of angels in the life of Christ.
Announcement of His birth.-Matthew 1:20;Luke 1:31.
Announcement of the birth of John the Baptist,His forerunner.-Luke 1:13.
Announcement of the Good tidings of His birth to the shepherds.-Luke 2:10.
Ministering of the angels after he overcame the temptations in the wilderness. -Matthew 4;11;Mark 1:13.
Ministering of the angels at Gethsemane. -Luke 22:43.
Announcement of the Good tidings of His resurrection. -Matthew 28:2;Mark 16:5;Luke 24:4;John20:12.
Telling of God’s message at His ascension-Acts 1:10.
5)”..this day I have begotten thee.”-This day may specifically refer to the day on which Jesus ascended into the heaven & sat at the right hand of God.Read Acts 13:33,34.
6)1 Chronicles 17:13 is a parallel verse of 2 Samuel 7:14.The promise of God to David that his dynasty would last forever has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.Read Luke 1:31-33.
7)The enthronement of Jesus Christ at the right hand of God gave Him higher status & rank than the angels & made Him superior to them.

By Alex (wrote 499 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2008 16:41 pm

1)In the Epistle of Hebrews there are more than 25 quotations of the O.T.& nearly 70 allusions of other O.T. passages.In Hebrews Chapter 1,the writer used 7 O.T. quotations (5 of them from the Psalms) to prove that Jesus Christ is superior as Son of God.In Heb.1:5,Psalm 2:7 & 2 Sam.7:14 are used.
2)When a new King of Judah of the lineage of David was crowned at Jerusalem,
he was adopted as the son of God in a public ceremony & was made to act as God’s representative to rule the kingdom.The words of Psalm 2:7 had been used during that occasion.Psalm 2 is founded on 2 Sam.7.
3) The words of Psalm 2:7 find its fulfillment in Jesus Christ as He is both
the Son of David & the Son of God.
4)The angel told Mary (before the birth of Jesus) that her son would be
called the Son of God & would reign the house of Jacob forever.Luke 1:30-35.
5)At the time of the baptism of Jesus Christ,a voice from heaven said,”This is My Beloved Son,in whom I am well pleased.” Read Matt.3:17;Mark 1:11;Luke 3:22.
6)When the disciples Peter,James & John were with Jesus Christ on the Mount of transfiguration,a voice from the cloud said,”This is My Beloved Son,in whom I am well pleased;hear ye Him.”The Apostles had been reassured that Jesus was the Messiah anticipated by them.
7)In Acts 13:33,34,we find that Paul has used the quotation of Psalm 2:7 to refer the resurrection of Jesus Christ.The resurrection of Jesus Christ and the enthronement at the right hand of God confirmed the fulfillment of the prophecies in the O.T.regarding the rule of the Messiah.

By Alex (wrote 499 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2008 03:10 am