John 1: 1 Commentary
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John 1 verse 1 is part of The New
Testament.All Bible Verses on VBVBC.org are taken from the King James Bible (KJV). 
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Loading ...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
431 Bible Commentaries on John 1: 1
1. This parallels Genesis 1
a. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Gen 1:1)
2. We call this time “in the beginning” as eternity past
a. Before the creation of angels
b. Or even the material universe
3. John is painting a picture that Jesus
a. Is the very expression (Logos) of God
b. That Jesus is eternal without beginning
c. That he was present WITH
d. But distinct FROM God (the Father)
e. And that Jesus IS God Almighty
4. John would later write of Jesus’ DEITY
a. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20 ESV)
5. Jesus is NOT a creation of God
a. Like an angel or man
b. Nor is He a lesser god
6. He is co-equal and co-eternal
a. With both Father and Holy Spirit
7. Jehovah is God
a. Thus says the LORD (Jehovah), the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god (Isa 44:6 ESV)
8. Jesus is Jehovah therefore God (see also Rev 1:8, 21:6 & 22:13)
a. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last (Rev 1:17 ESV)
9. The phrase ‘and the Word was God’
a. Does not have the definite article in front of “God” (see also v6)
b. And Jehovah’s Witnesses translate ‘and the Word was a god’
c. But without the definite article it speaks of NATURE
d. So it could read ‘and the Word was by His very nature God’
10. Jesus is also UNLIKE the Greek gods
a. Who were detached, unfeeling, remorseless
11. Jesus the LOGOS is intimately and passionately involved with mankind
a. Coming to earth and experiencing what humans experience
b. Becoming a ‘man of sorrows acquainted with grief’
c. Being ‘in all points tempted yet without sin’
d. Who was obedient unto the death of a cross
e. Suffering the humiliation and shame of the crucifixion
f. Redeemed mankind from sin
g. Not ashamed to call us brethren (Heb 2:11)
h. Who will forever be the God-man glorified
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on:
4/30/2012 13:12 pm 
Dear 2live4God, You have such a beautiful understanding of the “nature” of our Precious Savior & you also articulate the “nature”, holiness ^ completeness the Bride will/is walking in. I love how magnificently you have laid that truth before us.
I too have expressed some of these same glorious truths here in this blog & others. It’s brought me much comfort to know there are other like you out there carrying these awesome truths.
With all agape, I thank you. Tiuche has said so many times….we must walk in that powerful Love that manifests Who our Father is & that anyone who would have encouter w/ us would see the heart of the Father & the love of the Son.
God Bless you mightily. God willing, I may engage when I can. Right now I just humbly ask for the prayer of the righteous that I might be healed & made every bit whole for the glory & honor of my Savior & Bridegroom.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/14/2012 06:54 am 
GOD’S TRUTH…..
2 CORINTHIANS 3:18…..
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are CHANGED into the SAME IMAGE from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
CHANGED: The GREEK word used here is ” METAMORPHOO ” which is a verb. The definition is to change into another form, to transform, to transfigure, Christ appearance was changed and was resplendent with divine brightness on the mount of transfiguration.
SAME: The GREEK word used here is ” AUTOS ” and the definition is himself, herself, themselves, itself, he, she, it, of the same nature or essence, the same, selfsame.
IMAGE: The GREEK word used here is ” EIKON ” and is a noun. The definition is an image, figure, likeness, an image of the things (the heavenly things), used of the moral likeness of renewed men to God, the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses, the image of one, one in whom the likeness of any one is seen
applied to man on account of his power of command, to Christ on account of his divine nature and absolute moral excellence, the very nature or essence of one.
2 CORINTHIANS 4:4…..
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the IMAGE of God, should shine unto them.
IMAGE: The GREEK word used here is ” EIKON ” and is a noun. The definition is an image, figure, likeness, an image of the things (the heavenly things), used of the moral likeness of renewed men to God, the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses, the image of one, one in whom the likeness of any one is seen
applied to man on account of his power of command, to Christ on account of his divine nature and absolute moral excellence, the very nature or essence of one.
PHILIPPIANS 2:6…..
6. Who, being in the FORM of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God:
FORM: The GREEK word used here is ” MORPHE ” which is a noun. The definition is the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision, external appearance, the very nature or essence of one
EQUAL: The GREEK word used here is ” ISOS ” which is an adjective. The definition is equal to the same essence or same nature, equal, in quantity or quality.
Here are three scripture verses showing that my Lord Jesus Christ was in fact the very NATURE of GOD and is therefore GOD because my Lord Jesus Christ is the very same essence and nature of GOD making them ONE.
Just as the Predestined Bride shall be as well.
For my Lord Jesus Christ is the only true SON of GOD; my Lord Jesus Christ is the WORD and the WORD was made flesh as promised in Genesis to Revelation; BUT GOD was indwelled within his SON leading him to calvary just as stated in JOHN 1:14.
JOHN 1:14…..
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
ALSO how else would you explain 2 PETER 1:4.
2 PETER 1:4…..
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be PARTAKERS of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
We escaped through only one; my Lord Jesus Christ; provided by GOD HIMSELF FOR US ALL to be partakers of HIS GLORY and to be reborn into that VERY SELFSAME GLORY that was then but is here and now. Making us the VERY SAME NATURE OF GOD AS WELL.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/14/2012 06:12 am 
Post 423
Most Precious Scott Dale…………..I have not been responding because I am fighting for my very life. It is all consuming. And I have already, many times stated every reason for why I stand as I do & given more than enough scripture to back my beliefs. They all seem to fall on deaf ears & I just don’t have the energy to repeat them again & again….for what purpose????
I long to dialog w/ you over things that would truly edify & uplift & this discussion only brings me grief. A griel I am not able to cope w/ at this time.
You ask why I sided w/ Tiuche. In his post 416, he has said it so simply & beautifully using “only” the word of God. He has articulated my heart when he said….”He/Jesus is one w/ God & we are one w/ God - but let us accept that our Father & his Father is greater then than our Brothr & Savior. Here are scriptures that prove God the Father - another Person,is GREATER than our Lord:”
For this I have thanked Tiuche. Not that Jesus is God but that he is truly “The Son of God”.
You are dear to me in every way. I do wish we could have more conversations that bring Joy & Revelation drawing us so much nearer to our Savior, Brother & Bridegroom. I have so many things I would love to share w/ you & I know you have many things I long to hear.
You , dear Scott Dale, be blessed in all you put your hand to & may the favor of God, our Father & His most precious Son, be upon you.
In His Grip
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/10/2012 06:43 am
T. Snow you said:… revealed Himself in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons.
The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The words ‘Trinity,’ and/or ‘Triunity’ are simply words used to describe THAT etrernal truth.
Comment: The Trinity doctrine is flawed since the Holy Spirit is not a person but is the mind of God! It is like your spirit is not a person but your mind! Does that not still register on your spirit T Snow?
You said: And to repost #423 . . . salvation = faith plus keeping the Law? The ‘Law’ was fulfilled through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ [Mt.5:17]. We will also add, “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL OUR SINS [past, present, future], having canceled the written code [the Law], with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross” [Col.2:13-15, emphasis mine].
And finally, Paul writes in Gal.2:21 that if salvation hinges on ANY effort on our part [i.e. keeping the Law], then Jesus did not need to go to the cross . . …“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” [NIV]
“I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die” [NLT].
Now I am done. Have a great week.
Comment: So you do not want to keep the Law nor obey it because of the Grace of God or because of salavtion by Faith given to you? Your understanding on these matters a bit confuse. consideR:
Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Romans 3:31 NKJV - Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the LAW.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/9/2012 04:42 am 
Repost #420… what the apostle is saying here in vv.1-9 is, don’t be led astray by human reason [however expressed], claiming Jesus Christ is not Jehovah God. And we will add to this, that God has not revealed Himself in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons.
The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The words ‘Trinity,’ and/or ‘Triunity’ are simply words used to describe THAT etrernal truth.
And to repost #423 . . . salvation = faith plus keeping the Law? The ‘Law’ was fulfilled through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ [Mt.5:17]. We will also add, “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL OUR SINS [past, present, future], having canceled the written code [the Law], with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross” [Col.2:13-15, emphasis mine].
And finally, Paul writes in Gal.2:21 that if salvation hinges on ANY effort on our part [i.e. keeping the Law], then Jesus did not need to go to the cross . . .
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” [NIV]
“I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die” [NLT].
Now I am done. Have a great week.
Angel,
In my opinion your rebuttals are so lacking in proper exegesis that it becomes impossible to have any kind of rational exchange.
Tiuche,
I hope you will allow yourself to stop being intimidated by the “Trinity Doctrine”. It is merely a convenient excuse to not grapple with the testimony of the Scriptures regarding the person and work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It does no good to condemn it as a pagan, man-made doctrine because ALL doctrines are man made; even the ones that you believe in. Is not the Doctrine of Salvation also a disputable man-made doctrine? I say it is faith in Christ alone while you say it is faith in Christ plus the keeping of the Law. We can’t both be right can we? What the Scripture says is really all that matters. In this case, please be sure you are not taking away from it.
Candace,
I may be wrong but it seems you have removed yourself from the meat of this discussion and have been content to let Angel and Tiuche do the contending. As of the close of this post I too will be removing myself from further debate on this topic. However, I find it a curious thing that you should applaud their postings when neither one of them believe what you say you believe. Since when has Jesus become God to you? For both Angel and Tiuche believe he is. True, their doctrines, though not the same, are surely deviations from the Trinity doctrine, but they are also worlds away from your profession. Do you commend their remarks because you have changed your position or just because they, like you, despise the Trinity doctrine so much?
I leave this discussion by repeating the Pauline benediction that means NOTHING at all unless it carries the authority of God in all it’s parts:
“May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/8/2012 21:44 pm 
# 426 My Dear Brother, Tiuche…….Thank you so very much for so beautifully stating the very truths from God’s Word that I adhere to. You have spoken clearly & powerfully my heart & my beliefs. For that I am so gratedful.
All we need is the pure unadulterated Word of God & none of these extra biblical ideas, doctrines & concepts would even be an issue. We would see easily what the scriptures so clearly say.
Be Blessed Dear Brother & each & everyone of you
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/8/2012 07:34 am
TSNOW/ SCOTT DALE:
SCOTT DALE STATED: What DOES matter is whether or not the bible declares that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God? Do you not agree with this assessment? Do you not agree that this is the critical element of the discussion?
And why do you insist upon lambasting the “Trinity Doctrine” as a MAN-MADE doctrine? Is it not true that ALL doctrines are man-made? The real question is; does the bible confirm these doctrines? If it doesn’t, then yes; the doctrines are fraudulent. But if it does, then the doctrines are clearly NOT man-made and it would be incredibly foolish to suggest they are and even more foolish to ignore them.
You say ( SCOTT DALE QUOTING TIUCHE );
“We have already discussed repeatedly that the Holy Spirit is not a PERSON thus proving that the TRINITY is not an accurate description of God.”
SCOTT DALE CONTINUES: But the truth is, we have thoroughly discussed the Godhood of the Holy Spirit thereby CONFIRMING His Personhood. The fact that you don’t agree with it does not nullify this truth except in your own mind. On this point, the disagreement is valid. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. But understand this; neither I nor T Snow believes the Holy Spirit is God because the Trinity Doctrine says so. We believe that the Holy Spirit is God because the BIBLE says so; therefore, we agree with the Trinity Doctrine.
MY ANSWER: First off; GOD’S HOLY WORD SPOKEN WITHIN THE HOLY BIBLE; DOESN’T teach the PAGAN TRINITY DOCTRINE that you and tsnow are so fond of.
Also all earthly doctrines are man made and are anti-spirit filled, are adulterated teachings, and from satan himself YET GOD HIMSELF PUT FORTH HIS DOCTRINE FROM THE HEAVENS ITSELF WHICH IS PURE AND UNADULTERATED.
In fact the trinity dogma was made by Man to put on order to the their view and belief of the GODHEAD. And if you TRULY understood GOD’S HOLY WORD of the GODHEAD; that repeatedly states GOD HATES the Nicolaitanes who created these false doctrines; THEN you both would understand why this Nicean Council is anti-spirit, are adulterated teachings, and comes from a whore who carries the cup of the martyred saints and she herself bore more harlot daughters filled with man made anti-spirit dogmas from satan himself. Satan’s church here on earth with her harlot daughters; offspring churches of satan’s church; worldwide.
This is why we cry out stating that the pagan trinity doctrine is false in teaching that there were three co-equal separate distinct persons/individuals YET ALL WERE FROM ONE GOD. THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE AND IS PAGANISM.
You say that the HOLY BIBLE is the VERY WORD OF GOD yet you interpret as you will from GOD’S HOLY WORD when the HOLY BIBLE STATES that there is no private interpretations. IT’S ALL SPIRITUAL REVELATIONS GIVEN TO US FROM GOD TO REVEAL HIS TRUTH OF HIS HOLY WORD TO US.
So why do you insist on changing the meaning of GOD’S HOLY WORD especially in John 4:24 which states right out by my Lord Jesus Christ that ” GOD IS A SPIRIT ” yet you twist it to state ” the Spirit of GOD ” as if the HOLY SPIRIT and GOD are two separate beings as you two believe it to be and not the ONE AND THE SELFSAME BEING.
GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD. FOR GOD HAS ALWAYS BEEN A HOLY SPIRIT FORM AND THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD AND NOT TWO SEPARATE DISTINCT CO-EQUAL BEINGS.
TSNOW STATED: Post #416, TIUCHE: The word ‘Trinity,’ or ‘Triunity,’ is a word developed at Nicea. The truth it describes HAS been around from eternity past.
You said, “There is no debate that JESUS CHRIST IS GOD.” Yea . . . . there is. Denying God HAS revealed Himself in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons; that Jesus Christ is anyone but [Jehovah] God in flesh appearing - is, in essence, [a] disbelief in the Deity of Christ. Jesus did not BECOME God, at His baptism in the Jordan River, nor at any other time. Rather, God became a man [fully God, fully man] in Jesus. Perhaps this has not been revealed to you . . . but it will.
I am done. I trust you will all have a wonderful Easter.
MY ANSWER: TRINITY IS PAGANISM AND PAGAN IS THE TRINITY DOCTRINE PERIOD.
You cannot grasp that GOD IS THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD THE SELFSAME BEING AND NOT TWO SEPARATE DISTINCT CO-EQUAL BEINGS.
Just as John 4:24 states. So why do you insist on changing the meaning of GOD’S HOLY WORD especially in John 4:24 which states right out by my Lord Jesus Christ that ” GOD IS A SPIRIT ” yet you twist it to state ” the Spirit of GOD ” as if the HOLY SPIRIT and GOD are two separate beings as you believe it to be and not the ONE AND THE SELFSAME BEING.
You also cannot grasp that GOD cannot be the Son just as the Son of GOD cannot be GOD.
But my Lord Jesus Christ can be the very nature of GOD and making them ONE HOLY WILL, ONE HOLY BODY, ONE HOLY WORD, ONE HOLY WORKS, ONENESS PERIOD.
And as for the River Jordan; this is were GOD began to indwell the Son of GOD; on earth veiled within my Lord Jesus Christ. When the DOVE descended upon the LAMB and became ONE. NOT AT MY LORD JESUS CHRIST BIRTH.
So as your revelation of the GODHEAD; it is very inaccurate; to GOD’S HOLY WORD.
For GOD HAS NEVER been a physical form but ALWAYS a HOLY SPIRIT FORM veiled within an ark. AND this is to GOD’S HOLY WORD.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/8/2012 07:10 am
Candace, TIUCHE, 2live4GOD: Ok, ok, I wasn’t done. Please understand carefully . . . Paul writes, “I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the MYSTERY OF GOD, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” [Col.2:1-3, emphasis added; cf. 1Tim3:16, NIV].
Now down in vv.8-9 of Colossians 2 he says . . .
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. FOR [because] in Christ ALL the fullness of the Deity [God] lives in bodily form” [NIV, emphasis added].
Jesus Christ being God in the flesh IS . . . the ‘mystery of God/godliness. That’s why it’s so great.
And we look back at Peter’s confession, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God…” [Mt.16].
No, the Bible doesn’t state, “God the Father,” “God the Son,” or “God the Holy Spirit” verbatim. For this truth is seen in the WHOLE, not in parts.
Finally, John tells us [that], the denial of Christ’s Deity is the SPIRIT OF Antichrist [1Jn.4;1-3]. . .
Here, John is not calling anyone the Antichrist - rather, the DENIAL OF the eternal Son of God . . . is. It is denying the ‘mystery of God’/godliness.
Post #416, TIUCHE: The word ‘Trinity,’ or ‘Triunity,’ is a word developed at Nicea. The truth it describes HAS been around from eternity past.
You said, “There is no debate that JESUS CHRIST IS GOD.” Yea . . . . there is. Denying God HAS revealed Himself in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons; that Jesus Christ is anyone but [Jehovah] God in flesh appearing - is, in essence, [a] disbelief in the Deity of Christ. Jesus did not BECOME God, at His baptism in the Jordan River, nor at any other time. Rather, God became a man [fully God, fully man] in Jesus. Perhaps this has not been revealed to you . . . but it will.
I am done. I trust you will all have a wonderful Easter.
Tiuche (post #416)
Brother, how is it that you cannot hear what is being said? Time after time it has been repeated that the “Trinity Doctrine” is NOT what is being discussed here. Whether or not the word “trinity” appears in the bible is a moot point. It doesn’t matter at all. What DOES matter is whether or not the bible declares that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God? Do you not agree with this assessment? Do you not agree that this is the critical element of the discussion?
And why do you insist upon lambasting the “Trinity Doctrine” as a MAN-MADE doctrine? Is it not true that ALL doctrines are man-made? The real question is; does the bible confirm these doctrines? If it doesn’t, then yes; the doctrines are fraudulent. But if it does, then the doctrines are clearly NOT man-made and it would be incredibly foolish to suggest they are and even more foolish to ignore them.
You say;
“We have already discussed repeatedly that the Holy Spirit is not a PERSON thus proving that the TRINITY is not an accurate description of God.”
But the truth is, we have thoroughly discussed the Godhood of the Holy Spirit thereby CONFIRMING His Personhood. The fact that you don’t agree with it does not nullify this truth except in your own mind. On this point, the disagreement is valid. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. But understand this; neither I nor T Snow believes the Holy Spirit is God because the Trinity Doctrine says so. We believe that the Holy Spirit is God because the BIBLE says so; therefore, we agree with the Trinity Doctrine.
You have repeatedly said;
“WOULDN’T IT BR WISE ON OUR PART IF WE STICK WITH GOD’S WORD AND NOT ADD TO IT..?”
You will get no argument from me or T on this; but how is it that you say we are “adding” to it? Am I not justified in suggesting that you, Candace and Angel are “subtracting” from it? If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are fully God and you say they are not, is this not equally as damnable as deifying a mere man or a force field? I wish you WOULD stick with only God’s word:
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” 2Cor 13:14.
In a way most basic, the three essentials of Christian faith: Grace, love and fellowship are gifts that ONLY God can give. This verse declares that the Father, Son and Spirit are three uniquely different persons. Who can receive Grace but through another person? Who can receive Love but through another person? Who can have Fellowship but with another person? Why is it that Paul did not simply say; “May the grace, love and fellowship of GOD be with you all”? If the Holy Spirit and Jesus are NOT co-equal in deity to the Father, Paul could be accused of authoring a great deal of confusion; not to mention heresy!
Yes, let’s just “STICK WITH GOD’S WORD AND NOT ADD TO IT”; or take away from it.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/8/2012 05:27 am
T.Snow/ Candace: Let me enter the discussion again:WOULDN’T IT BR WISE ON OUR PART IF WE STICK WITH GOD’S WORD AND NOT ADD TO IT TOWARDS OUR OWN CONFUSION & PROBABLY SOME PLAGUES FROM DISOBEDIENCE?
T Snow(post#413) you wrote to Candace:
From your posts, the truth that there is only One who is ‘Holy and Righteous’ doesn’t seem to be clear. Further, there is only One Author of Life.
God’s presence on earth was represented through/in Jesus Christ. He [Jesus] was/is the physical manifestation [visible appearance] of God. He possesses all the attributes / characteristics of God…
Comment:There is no debate that JESUS CHRIST IS GOD; and He is one with God as we are one in God- but let us accept that our Father & His Father is greater than our brother & Savior. Here are scriptures to prove that God the Father-another Person is GREATER than our Lord:
John 10:27-33My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”
John 13:16″Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater (meizon) than his master, nor is one who is sent greater (meizon) than the one who sent him.”
John 14:28 Jesus said:… I go to the Father, for the Father is greater (meizon) than I.”
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone…
Donot insist on grasping or making our Lord equal with God our Father. Whether our Father in Heaven is greater only in position to the Son and not in the ESSENCE & NATURE of God, since the Bible tells us that God the Father is Greater than our Lord-let us stick to that! Here is an advice to us from the Bible to follow:
Philippians 2:5-8 “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped…
1 Corinthian 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
You said : Why would a Christian deny that God has revealed Himself in three Persons? (”because the Bible doesn’t teach it,” may be the response). But that’s not what is being asked, rather, what fuels the disbelief? Is it because God is too holy and perfect to become a man? [or something to that effect]…
In denying the Triune God, there has been verses quoted, examples given, and so forth . . . why the need to disprove, see? Honest questions, straight from the soul.
Comment: We have already discussed repeatedly that the Holy Spirit is not a PERSON thus proving that the TRINITY is not an accurate description of God. Could any person accurately confine & discuss or explain God through a MAN MADE DOCTRINE or TERM? And the TRINITY is a MAN MADE DOCTRINE-most probably from PAGANISM-why should you insist that we SWALLOW an unclean doctrine of men? Would that not be adding or subtracting from the Bible on the nature and essence of God?
If you that believes in the TRINITY just quoted BIBLE VERSES on God- would there have been a debate? Would there have been a need to disprove on the part of Candace, Angel & etc?
The Bible tells us not to add or subtract, better to quote scriptures than our words unless it is necessary for us to speak:
Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may …
Deuteronomy 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Revelation 22:9 But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
Revelation22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
WOULDN’T IT BR WISE ON OUR PART IF WE STICK WITH GOD’S WORD AND NOT ADD TO IT TOWARDS OUR OWN CONFUSION & PROBABLY SOME PLAGUES FROM DISOBEDIENCE?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/8/2012 03:27 am
Post #393, Candace: “How anyone could willfully demean our Beautiful Savior by saying he was just a body of flesh is beyond me????”
I don’t recall stating Jesus was/is just a body of flesh. The body in which dwelt the eternal Son of God . . . was flesh.
Repost #413: A little while ago we were discussing Mic.5:2, where the prophet writes of the Ruler coming out of Bethlehem [Ephrathah]. This prophecy is cited in Mt.2, when King H
Post #409, Candace: No scriptures are being thrown away. I believe Ac.17 ends with v.34. But lets look at AC.3:14-15 . . .
“You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the Author of Life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.”
From your posts, the truth that there is only One who is ‘Holy and Righteous’ doesn’t seem to be clear. Further, there is only One Author of Life.
God’s presence on earth was represented through/in Jesus Christ. He [Jesus] was/is the physical manifestation [visible appearance] of God. He possesses all the attributes / characteristics of God.
This discussion will not come to a close. But I still wonder . . . and I’m not asking for a response - perhaps for prayer, study, etc in the future…
Why would a Christian deny that God has revealed Himself in three Persons? (”because the Bible doesn’t teach it,” may be the response). But that’s not what is being asked, rather, what fuels the disbelief? Is it because God is too holy and perfect to become a man? [or something to that effect].
In denying the Triune God, there has been verses quoted, examples given, and so forth . . . why the need to disprove, see? Honest questions, straight from the soul.
And also, about the smiley face ending sentences - that was serious - I didn’t know:) But I do now. Just keep forgetting it.
TSNOW SORRY FOR POST 411 COMMENT.
Candace had answered me in post 409 and I wrote it post 405 for you to see how easy it is to fall astray from GOD’S TRUTH if we are not indwelled with the HOLY SPIRIT AND MISS THE MARK COMPLETELY..
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/7/2012 04:48 am
TSNOW:
I KNOW GOD THE FATHER RAISED HIS SON; MY LORD JESUS CHRIST; FROM THE DEAD.
I was trying to show how simple it is to put our own views and opinions on GOD’S HOLY WORD and distort his very truths as satan did with Eve. For when we take the text out of context ALL we are left with is a CON.
We as believers need the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT to REVEAL GOD’S HOLY WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT cannot and will not vary in any way at all with GOD’S HOLY WORD. Yet we have so many views and opinions here and yet one of us has to have the truth or maybe none of us do.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/7/2012 04:41 am
Post #409, Candace: Turn in your Bible if you will to Isa.9, where we read, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” [v.6].
It had been noted in a previous post [that] there is a difference between ‘Mighty God’ and ‘Almighty God.’
The ‘Mighty God’ here in Isa.9:6, in Hebrew is “El Gibbor/Gibhor.” It means “The Mighty God.” Yes, ‘el is also used referring to pagan gods/deities; but added to it here is ‘Gibbor’ [mighty, strength], signifying the attribute of the El. Further, Isaiah never uses El referring to any but the God of Israel. El Gibbor is one name of God the Father, as is El Shaddai [God Almighty].
El Gibbor is used also in Isa.10:21.
‘Everlasting Father’/'Father of Eternity’ - [Avi’ad]. It must be agreed, there is only ONE ‘Everlasting Father.’
Isaiah speaks of Christ reigning on the throne of David [9:7], which parallels Mic.5:2 - “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; WHOSE goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” [emphasis added]. It is absolutely clear, “… whose goings forth …” refers to the One on the throne.
Putting these passages together with Jn.1:1-2,14; 17:5; Book of Hebrews; one can manipulate verses, Bible languages, and so forth until he/she is blue in the face. But the Bible is crystal clear on Christ’s Deity. There is only One Savior, One Redeemer, One who is holy, righteous and good. He is the God of the Bible, revealing Hinself in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons.
post 405 TSnow. You have demonstrated another classic example of pulling scripture out of context & ignoring the many scriptures that clearly state GOD RASIED HIS SON FROM THE DEAD!
Which is ture then???? Did Jesus raise himself or did the One & Only God, Yahweh raise him?????
Ro 10:9; Acts 13:30, 40; Acts 3:15; Acts 13:34; Acts 2:24; 1 Pet 1:21; Col 2:12; Gal 1:1; Eph 2:6; Acts 4:10; Eph 1:20; Acts 5:30; Ro 8:11; Ro 7:4; 1 Cor 15:15; Acts 17:31,37……do we just throw all these sciptures away????
You can’t even be saved if you don’t believe God raised him from the dead….
Ro 10:9 ” confess w/ your mouth the Lord Jesus & believe in your heart that GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, you shall be saved.” NKJV
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 22:06 pm
# 402 2live4God……………I think we agree about our Savior being the manifestation of the One & Only God/Yahweh. “God was “in” Christ, reconciling the world to Himself/God”: (2 Cor 5:19) Jesus was not just a container but the real flesh & blood Son of God w/ the fulness of God in him. We have but a measure. Christ has all God’s fulness.
Now about the baptism of Jesus…….Acts 10:38: “How God “anointed” Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost & power……..for God was w/ him” KJV
“you know what happened throughout all Judea & began in Galilee after the baptism John preached.” Acts 10:37
No miracles were done by Jesus until after his “anointing” in the Jordan except for the premature one in Cana. He did this one out of respect for his mother.
Christ/Messiah translated MEANS Anointed One. Scriptures show us Jesus was “Anointed” at the River Jordan & the physical “sign” was the dove decending upon him & the voice of God from heaven saying…”this is My Son in Whom I am well pleased.”
This is a precurser to the infilling of Jesus’ Body w/ that Same Spirit when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit. As of yet we have God’s Spirit in a measure but the early Church did all the “works” Jesus did including rasing the dead. Acts 20 The Church today has strayed far from what we should be doing concerning the Greater Works.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 21:46 pm
Angel (Post #403)
Regarding Hebrews 7:3 you say; “What this verse is stating is that my Lord Jesus Christ was just like MELCHISEDEK.”
Whereas what you are saying is true, Hebrews 7:3 actually does NOT say that. It says that Melchizedek himself was “made like unto the Son of God”. In other words, the eternally existing Son of God was the heavenly priest that Melchizedek was made to be like on the earth. The Son of God has ALWAYS been the priest to the Father in heaven. Remember, the Creation did not begin with the earth and humanity. “In the beginning, God created the HEAVENS (and all that is in them) and (then) the earth”. The heavenly is the Type and the earthly is the Anti-type. This pattern is immutable.
It is true that the incarnate Son of God (Jesus the MAN) was a priest who FOLLOWED “in the order of Melchizedek” (7:11). But Melchizedek himself, was a priest who followed in the order of the Son of God! (7:3)
The priesthood of Jesus (the Son of God) began when the Heavenly ANGELIC creation began. “No ONE comes to the Father except through Me” pertains to not only humanity, but the hosts of heaven as well. These verses testify to the pre-earthly existence of Jesus, the Son of God.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 20:50 pm
CANDACE ENJOY POSTS 402 & 403. TSNOW ENJOY POSTS 404 & 405.
I shall return in three days so keep posting and asking questions for I will answer them when I return from work.
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2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 16:31 pm
TSNOW: This goes along with post 404.
Then explain this which is GOD’S HOLY WORD which states in JOHN 10:17-18.
JOHN 10:17-18…..
17. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
SO WHO ACTUALLY RESURRECTED MY LORD JESUS CHRIST; GOD THE FATHER OR HIMSELF BECAUSE MY LORD JESUS CHRIST IS THE VERY NATURE OF GOD?
HERE IS THE TRUE ANSWERS…..
JOHN 2:19…..
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
JOHN 5:26…..
26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
AND HERE IS ALSO A SCRIPTURE OF MY LORD JESUS CHRIST OF HIS MIND BEING IN US AND WE ARE ONE.
JOHN 5:20…..
20. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
I TELL YOU THE TRUTH OF ALL THIS YET YOU BELIEVE ME NOT.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 16:28 pm
TSNOW:
YOU STATED: Rather, the Bride being referred to as ’supernatural beings” - this I have not read.
MY ANSWER: READ 1 CORINTHIANS 6-16. And ask yourself how can we as a natural being understand GOD’S WISDOM especially if we are of flesh and of the world. Yet a spiritual/supernatural being once born again is spiritually/supernaturally no longer of this world even though this flesh is here physically.
For the HOLY BIBLE states that no natural man can do signs and wonders BUT a spiritual/supernatural being can.
Also when we are born again we no longer exist but receive a new name and become a new body for the works of he who is greater in me.
This is just for starters for if you truly seek the truth of this GOD shall answer you and this alone will take up alot of your time if you are truly sincere.
YOU STATED ALSO: About understanding the mind of God - “Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom” [Isa.40:28].
ALSO Allow me to respond to #382 . . .
Jesus did not become God. God became a man by the work of the Spirit through the virgin birth. Quoting again [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]: “For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David” [Lk.2:11]. And further . . . “Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the Lord. “Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you” [Zech.2:10-11, NIV]. We’ll add to this Jn.1:1-2,14; 1Tim.3:16.
Jesus Christ; Savior, Messiah, Redeemer - is God in the flesh. He revealed Himself to the world through the virgin birth.
MY ANSWER: If the HOLY WORD OF GOD states in his HOLY BIBLE that my Lord Jesus Christ MIND is in us and my Lord Jesus Christ knows GOD COMPLETELY what does that mean for us who are born again with the mind of my Lord Jesus Christ?
For my Lord Jesus Christ is a supernatural being and he is in us and we are ONE just as the HOLY WORD OF GOD states in his HOLY BIBLE then what does this mean for those who are born again?
And as for you stating GOD was made flesh you are stuck on that pagan trinity doctrine so much that you do not see my Lord Jesus Christ was the SON OF GOD just as it is stated throughout the HOLY WORD OF GOD in GOD’S HOLY BIBLE.
So how can the Father be the Son and how can the Son be the Father? So who was my Lord Jesus Christ praying to and calling Father?
ONLY by the nature of GOD is my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD just as the PREDESTINED BRIDE shall be as well.
the Father is GOD and not the Son; as the Son is not the Father but by nature he is GOD; and the HOLY SPIRIT is GOD HIMSELF and not the Son. Yet GOD/HOLY SPIRIT; indwelled the Son of GOD on earth ONLY AFTER my Lord Jesus Christ WAS BAPTIZED.
Or why would my Lord Jesus Christ tell JOSEPH and MARY that do you not know that I must be about my FATHER’S business. Even then my Lord Jesus Christ recognized the separation of his Father and HIMSELF.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 16:14 pm
CANDACE: This goes along with post 402 as well.
Here is something; and I don’t know if you know this; but even Paul was trying to explain the GODHEAD to us through the Book of Hebrews as well as many others.
HEBREWS 7:3…..
3. Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
So many believe that MELCHISEDEK was my Lord Jesus Christ but my Lord Jesus Christ had a Father in Heaven and a mother on Earth.
YET it states that MELCHISEDEK had NO Father, NO Mother, NO Beginning of Days, NO Ending of Life, and NO Descendants. So MELECHISEDEK was self existing and the ONLY SELF EXISTING ONE in nothing and in everything is; ELOHIM/GOD. For ELOHIM means SELF EXISTING ONE.
And then this verse states even further to say that the Son of GOD was made just like MELCHISEDEK.
This is were so many christians get lost and misinterpret this verse.
What this verse is stating is that my Lord Jesus Christ was just like MELCHISEDEK. Meaning My Lord Jesus Christ was 100% Flesh but 100% GOD HIMSELF was indwelled within this vessel of 100% man making my Lord Jesus Christ the VERY NATURE of GOD. Just as MELCHISEDEK was 100% vessel of man YET 100% GOD HIMSELF indwelled within this 100% vessel of man.
What is even more amazing is that GOD always used the body of my Lord Jesus Christ as his ark.
For doesn’t the HOLY BIBLE which is the HOLY WORD OF GOD state that ALL sheep shall recognize my Lord Jesus Christ in every way.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 15:46 pm
CANDACE:
YOU STATED:
I need to question you about a couple of things if I may?
1) The Father/Yahweh has no beginning or end.(Ps 90:2; Gen 21:33) Yahweh is “eternal”. No beginning & no end.
MY ANSWER FOR ( 1. )- THIS IS CORRECT.
2) The Son of God came from Him/God. He has a beginning. “on THIS day I have begotten you.” (Ps 2:7; Heb 1:5; Heb 5:5; Acts 13:33)
MY ANSWER FOR ( 2. )- THIS IS ALSO CORRECT.
YOU STATED: You said Jesus became the Son of God at the river Jordan when he was baptized. I do believe Jesus was the Son of God at his very conception. (Luke 1:31,32)”God with us”, meaning the Spirit of God his Father was w/ him from conception & would be manifest to the world through him/Jesus. What we see at the River Jordan is Y’shua’s/Jesus “anointing” for his ministry. Jesus was now being equipped to do the work the Father had called him to do.
MY ANSWER: NO that’s not right for my Lord Jesus Christ was the Son of GOD when the HOLY SPIRIT formed my Lord Jesus Christ in the womb of Mary. My Lord Jesus Christ birth was his beginning and my Lord Jesus Christ ending was his death at Calvary alone as 100% man for the Father had left him so that my Lord Jesus Christ could fulfill his role as the SACRIFICIAL LAMB OF GOD.
And you are absolutely correct in stating that at the river Jordan; GOD the Father came down and indwelled his Son; so that my Lord Jesus Christ could BEGIN his ministry.
I will be away for 3 days but when I return I shall post again so go ahead and ask your questions for I will answer them upon my return from work.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 14:16 pm
2live4GOD: If you will glance back at post #398 - that the Bible speaks of a/the ‘Bride’ is not in question. Rather, the Bride being referred to as ’supernatural beings” - this I have not read.
About understanding the mind of God -
“Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom” [Isa.40:28].
Allow me to respond to #382 . . .
Jesus did not become God. God became a man by the work of the Spirit through the virgin birth. Quoting again [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]:
“For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David” [Lk.2:11].
And further . . .
“Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the Lord. “Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you” [Zech.2:10-11, NIV]. We’ll add to this Jn.1:1-2,14; 1Tim.3:16.
Jesus Christ; Savior, Messiah, Redeemer - is God in the flesh. He revealed Himself to the world through the virgin birth.
2live4God, I appreciate the heart of the Bride I see in you & the Love/agape you know must be seen manifest in those that are indeed the Bride. I also appreciate your understanding that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead should & will be in those pressing into that Gloriou Bride w/out spot or wrinkle or any such thing! Those indeed will do that same works our Savior did only greater!(JN 14:12) And they will walk in perfect love.
I need to question you about a couple of things if I may?
1) The Father/Yahweh has no beginning or end.(Ps 90:2; Gen 21:33) Yahweh is “eternal”. No beginning & no end.
2) The Son of God came from Him/God. He has a beginning. “on THIS day I have begotten you.” (Ps 2:7; Heb 1:5; Heb 5:5; Acts 13:33)
You said Jesus became the Son of God at the river Jordan when he was baptized. I do believe Jesus was the Son of God at his very conception. (Luke 1:31,32)”God with us”, meaning the Spirit of God his Father was w/ him from conception & would be manifest to the world through him/Jesus.
What we see at the River Jordan is Y’shua’s/Jesus “anointing” for his ministry. Jesus was now being equipped to do the work the Father had called him to do.
Remember at the wedding of Cana Jesus turned the water into wine? He said “woman, my time has not yet come.” (Jn 2:4) Jesus had not been anointed w/ “the power” of God’s Spirit yet but at his baptism we see that infilling. His ministry was about to begin after he endured the testing in the wilderness w/ the greatest temptations to be put upon a man.
We too, as His Body, are to be filled with the Holy Ghost so we too can do those Greater Works. Y’shua/Jesus commanded his disciples to go to Jerusalem & WAIT until they were endued w/ power. (Luke 24:49)
How much more does The Church today need that same power as we enter into these Last Days to carry out the Great Commission.
I pray this bears witness w/ your spirit. I will address the deity of Christ the next time.
God Bless 
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/4/2012 07:20 am
CANDACE/ TSNOW/ SCOTT DALE:
TSNOW STATED: That ’supernatural beings’ is here emphasized, does it refer to the Bride members? This is not taught and is stated nor anywhere else in the Bible.
MY ANSWER: Then explain the BOOK OF REVELATION. FOR THE BRIDE DOCTRINE IS IN THE HOLY BIBLE JUST AS I HAVE BEEN STATING.
REVELATION 22:17
17. And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
WHO IS THE BRIDE THEN? AND WHY DOES THE REVELATION 22:17 LEAD YOU TO REVELATION 21:2 THEN?
REVELATION 21:2
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a Bride adorned for her husband.
SO WHO IS THE BRIDE HERE AND WHY DOES REVELATION 21:2 LEAD YOU THEN TO 2 CORINTHIANS 11:2?
2 CORINTHIANS 11:2
2. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have Espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin ( BRIDE ) to Christ.
I CAN TAKE THIS DEEPER AND SHOW YOU YET MORE OF WHAT I HAVE BEEN STATING ABOUT THE BRIDE KNOWING THE MIND OF GOD AND HOW SIMPLE GOD IS TO HIS CHOSEN/ THE ELECT/ THE PREDESTINED/ THE BRIDE AND WE CAN GO VERSE BY VERSE TO BREAK IT DOWN TO SEE I AM SPEAKING THE TRUTH OF MY GOD.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/2/2012 19:10 pm
Post #396, 2live4GOD: “GOD IS SIMPLICITY TO THE BRIDE MEMBERS ONLY (SUPERNATURAL BEINGS)…..” Psalms 19:7
That ’supernatural beings’ is here emphasized, does it refer to the Bride members? This is not taught in Ps.19:7, nor anywhere else in the Bible.
“GOD made us to worship him AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD and everything else made of wood, stone, gold, silver, or whatever it is made out of is NOT A GOD and man HAS made that object a FALSE GOD by worshipping it. So if man hadn’t worshipped this false idol then that object would of remained an object.” “This is shown throughout the HOLY BIBLE.”
Am having trouble understanding your point here - not beause it is spiritually discerned. I’m not going to ask you to reference it, because whatever scripture is used will be out of context, as the other references in this post. I don’t know. There’s so many turns in your posts, bro. Can you be a bit more revealing?
“WHY must you make GOD so far from you when the HOLY BIBLE states GOD is in you and near you till the end of the world.” (Post #396)
No one here is making God any further away than the bible itself declares. Yes, God is IN us now to the measure that we abide IN Him (John 15). But God is also “far away” in that His dwelling place is in Heaven (Mat 6:9). To the Overcomer, the authority to co-rule with Christ is promised but it is an authority that will not be granted in it’s fullness until the time of the end after the Rapture when the Overcomer himself shall be a dweller of Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven comes to the earth (1 Cor 6:2a).
“Many are called, but few are chosen” is a clear declaration that the destinies of the justified are determined by US and not the sovereign pre-determination of God. Many are called means also that many are NOT called; not because they are not saved but because they have not prepared themselves for such a “high calling” as co-ruling with Christ (Phil 3:14).
And of the many who ARE called only a few are chosen because they have “strained toward the prize” and measured up to the standard of faithfulness that the Lord requires to inherit the authority of Kingdom rulership (Mat 25:14-30). The choice is ours; to live a life of faithfulness and purity of such integrity that it secures for us not only the necessary wedding garment (Rev 19:8) but also the rich welcome (2 Pet 1:11) at the gate of the City (Rev 22:14); or to be swept away by the cares of this life and so forfeit our Kingdom inheritance (1 Cor 10:11-12; Heb 4:11).
Yes, God is in us but the word also says; “According to your faith it will be done to you” (Mat 9:29). So how MUCH faith do we really have?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/2/2012 05:12 am
TSNOW/ SCOTT DALE:
GOD IS SIMPLICITY TO THE BRIDE MEMBERS ONLY ( SUPERNATURAL BEINGS )…..
Psalms 19:7
7. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psalms 119:130
130. The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
2 Corinthians 1:12
12. For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
GOD’S KNOWLEDGE IS GIVEN TO US FREELY FOR THE BRIDE MEMBERS ONLY ( SUPERNATURAL BEINGS )…..
Matthew 11:25
25.At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Psalm 8:2
2. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
1 Corinthians 1:27
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1 Corinthians 1:30
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1 Corinthians 2:7
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Colossians 3:16
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
2 Timothy 2:7
7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
AND AS FOR GOD BEING THE FIRST CREATION….. It’s the truth.
GOD made us to worship him AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD and everything else made of wood, stone, gold, silver, or whatever it is made out of is NOT A GOD and man HAS made that object a FALSE GOD by worshipping it. So if man hadn’t worshipped this false idol then that object would of remained an object.
This is shown throughout the HOLY BIBLE.
WHY must you make GOD so far from you when the HOLY BIBLE states GOD is in you and near you till the end of the world.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/1/2012 21:22 pm
Post #393, Candace: Because “God APPEARED IN a body [1Tim.3:16]. It was the physical manifestation of God. Just as you and I - the body is not eternal, only the spirit within.
2live4GOD: Hi. (1)You who are so EDUCATED and WISE just as SO MANY CALLED BEFORE yet you miss what is right in front of you …. that GOD IS SIMPLICITY …. NEVER CHANGING …. THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER.” [#389]. Lets think about this a minute . . .
1. Simple: easy to understand; not complicated
2. Simplicity: state or quality of being simple
While God is immutable [Mal.3:6; Heb.13:8; Jas.1;17], and the gospel ’simple,’ the word ’simplicity’ would not appear in a description of God.
(2) “You say you have the HOLY SPIRIT but how can it vary so much between every believer when GOD SAID I AM THE WORD….. SINGULAR….. SO therefore there shall be NO VARIANCES BETWEEN GOD’S HOLY WORD AND EVERY TRUE HOLY SPIRIT FILLED PREDESTINED BRIDE MEMBERS” [#389].
“It” referring to the Holy Spirit? The Spirit does not vary - but we sinners do [vary]. We are all sinners through inheritance [Rom.5:12], which, has resulted in a bizillion faiths/sub-faiths around the world.
(3) “BUT what you don’t understand is that my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD by NATURE” [#387].
The phrase ‘by NATURE’ is used here fairly loosely. Watch . . .
1. (by) Nature: as a result of inborn or inherent qualities; innately
2. Inherent: existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, attribute
3. Inborn: naturally present at birth, innate
The name Jesus was given God, who became flesh through the virgin birth. Watch 1Tim.3:16 [God’s Word Trans] . . .
“The MYSTERY that gives us our REVERENCE FOR GOD is acknowledged to be great: He appeared in his human nature, was approved by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was announced throughout the nations, was believed in the world, and was taken to heaven in glory.”
What the apostle is telling us, is that God becoming a man is a mystery; it cannot be comprehended, but it CAN be believed. We’ll quote again . . .
“For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David” [Lk.2:11].
God came to us, but His own people [Jews] didn’t believe Him [Jn.1:11]. So they [Sanhedrin] accused Him of blasphemy and ultimately crucified Him [Mt.26:57-67].
#386Oh TSnow! How can you say “it” was just a body of flesh” That “it” was & is our Savior, the Son of God. He was fullly alive, fully man, the last Adam. He has his own will i.e “not “my will” but Thine be done” in the garden of Gethsemane. He has his own spirit as seen at his death on the cross i.e “into Your hands I commend “MY SPIRIT” & he died.” Y’shua/Jesus had emotions, he wept for Jersusalem, he loved the “disciples” the Father gave him, fervently, he had righteous anger at the merchants in the Temple. He had every emotion any human being can have & “he was tempted in ALL things just as we are so we have a compassionate High Priest.”(Heb4:15)
God IS NOT tempted & neither does He tempt.(James 1:13)
Jesus had life in & of himself “GIVEN” to him by the Father” (John 5:26) This is scripture not extra biblical nonsense. Y’shua/Jesus loved, wept, hungered, thristed, suffered & he was a MAN of sorrows acquinted w/ grief” ( Isaiah 53:3) He couldn’t have been more human or experienced more human emotions.
How anyone could willfully demean our Beautiful Savior by saying he was just a body of flesh is beyond me???? Our Jesus was The Last Adam, perfect, The Son of God Whom it pleased to dwell in him/Christ. Scripture, not bogus doctrine, Scripture
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/1/2012 07:19 am
Angel, (post #389)
“but as Paul stated if you are not living in the power of GOD then you are lost and are not ONE OF HIS CHILDREN….. plain and simple.”
This is a strong statement, what scripture(s) of Paul are you referring to? And what do you mean exactly by “lost and are not ONE OF HIS CHILDREN”?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 23:50 pm
Post #389, 2live4GOD: “NOW so I don’t lose you as always….. lets be clear on ONE THING….. GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED BUT HE WASN’T GOD YET….. not until he created PEOPLE TO WORSHIP HIM DID HE BECOME A GOD…… THE WORD GOD IS A TITLE.” I don’t believe Candace will swallow this.
God says “The intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate” [1Cor.1:19]. The God who said to Job: “Who is this that darkens My counsel, with words without knowledge; brace yourself like a man, for I will question you and you will answer Me” [Job 38:1,2,3]; the God who created the Universe and everything in it [Gen.1]; the God who numbers the stars, calling them each by name [Ps.147]; the God who has numbered each hair on our head(s) [Lk.12:7]; the God who knit you and I together in the womb [Ps.139] . . . surely we could go on and on here. But do you really believe the mind of God can be understood or even fathomed by sinful man?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 23:29 pm
Post #389, 2live4GOD: “NOW so I don’t lose you as always….. lets be clear on ONE THING….. GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED BUT HE WASN’T GOD YET….. not until he created PEOPLE TO WORSHIP HIM DID HE BECOME A GOD…… THE WORD GOD IS A TITLE.” I don’t believe Candace will swallow this.
God says “The intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate” [1Cor.1:19]. The God who said to Job: “Who is this that darkens My counsel, with words without knowledge; brace yourself like a man, for I will question you and you will answer Me” [Job 38:1,2,3]; the God who created the Universe and everything in it [Gen.1]; the God who numbers the stars, calling them each by name [Ps.147]; the God who has numbered each hair on our head(s) [Lk.12:7] . . . the
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 23:24 pm
SCOTT DALE/ TSNOW/ CANDACE:
How does one establish himself as GOD?
You who are so EDUCATED and WISE just as SO MANY CALLED BEFORE yet you miss what is right in front of you ….. that GOD IS SIMPLICITY….. NEVER CHANGING….. THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER.
NOW so I don’t lose you as always….. lets be clear on ONE THING….. GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED BUT HE WASN’T GOD YET….. not until he created PEOPLE TO WORSHIP HIM DID HE BECOME A GOD…… THE WORD GOD IS A TITLE.
Do you GET it now. This is how GOD became GOD.
GOD created those who would worship him in all his GLORY ( Predestined Bride ), GOD also created those who would question his AUTHORITY ( Make Believers ), and GOD also created those who would out right REJECT HIM
( Non Believers ).
You say you have the HOLY SPIRIT but how can it vary so much between every believer when GOD SAID I AM THE WORD….. SINGULAR….. SO therefore there shall be NO VARIANCES BETWEEN GOD’S HOLY WORD AND EVERY TRUE HOLY SPIRIT FILLED PREDESTINED BRIDE MEMBERS.
For the HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD CLAIMING BACK WHAT WAS HIS SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING BEFORE ALL CREATION and the HOLY SPIRIT IS FOR HIS TRUE SONS AND DAUGHTERS PERIOD.
YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT’S AT STAKE….. BEING RAPTURED….. AS A BRIDE MEMBER FOR BEING HOLY SPIRIT FILLED AND AGREEING WITH THE ONE TRUE WORD OF GOD AND NOT VARYING FROM THAT WORD NO MATTER WHAT.
FOR EVERY TRUE SON AND DAUGHTER THAT COMES FORWARD WITH THE WORD OF GOD SHALL NOT VARY FROM ONE ANOTHER FOR THEY ARE THE TRUE FAMILY OF GOD PREDESTINED BEFORE THE VERY FOUNDATIONS AND THEY ARE THE WORD AS WELL AND THE BRIDE SHALL CAST AWAY ALL THESE DOGMAS SITTING IN EVERY CHURCH AND THE BRIDE SHALL REJECT IT.
While the other Brothers and Sisters who are the Church Body shall go through the Tribulation for they had not the HOLY SPIRIT and believed they did but as Paul stated if you are not living in the power of GOD then you are lost and are not ONE OF HIS CHILDREN….. plain and simple.
My Lord Jesus Christ stated that to us in his HOLY WORD stating many shall come but a few shall enter and the others will claim they knew him and in his name did many miracles but my Lord Jesus Christ shall reply ” Leave here for I knew you not you workers of iniquity. ”
So explain if one is living in the power of GOD; GOD who can do anything; WHY is it so hard to believe the days of old are still here if GOD NEVER CHANGES.
2 CORINTHIANS 3:16-18
16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
ALL THAT I HAVE BEEN STATING RIGHT HERE IN THESE THREE VERSES….. THE TRUE GODHEAD.
I can honestly say the only one who shall accept this as a truth will be Candace.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 22:28 pm
“The VERY first creation was GOD HIMSELF.” (Post #387)
This is all I need to know. Was I “ready for it”? Let’s just say I’m not surprised by it. This poster is evidently our former comrade known as Angel. I have suspected it and perhaps others (such as Roland) have known it. The seeds of his deception were evidently planted long ago but I do not recall Angel as ever being so radically unorthodox; but perhaps I just wasn’t aware. In any case, it’s sad. 2Live claims to know the mind of God Himself; therefore, I guess it’s not inconsistent to think that he knows that God was created.
Candace, how will YOU continue to relate to Angel and his heresy? Will you plead with him to cast off such obvious deception? Where do you think such a teaching will end? Is he still a precious “brother”? If his understanding of the Father is so flawed, what must his understanding of the Son be like? Perhaps 2 Cor. 13:5 is needful of Angel because I have serious doubts. It occurs to me that this is not unlike what happened to John Cordaro.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 18:32 pm
TSNOW/ SCOTT DALE/ CANDACE:
YOU STATED: Why ask Candace why she doesn’t believe in the Deity of Christ, when you don’t appear to either?
God took on human form through the virgin birth and not at the river Jordan. There, was heard the voice of God the Father, God the Spirit appeared as a dove, and God the Son [in the body of Jesus] was in the river. The Bible never teaches God became flesh at the Jordan.
What happened at the birth of Christ? - Magi came offering gifts; they asked “Where is He that is BORN KING of the Jews?” [Mt.2, emphasis added]. Note also Lk.2:11 in the Aramaic translation: “For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David.” There is no savior but God - Isa.43:11; 45:20-22; 63:16. See also post #381.
2live4GOD, I ask you, straight from the heart . . . are you writing your belief[s] as you go?
MY ANSWER: NO, NOPE, AND NO. I don’t make up my beliefs as I go along for if I did it sure would be a TALL TALE.
Now; FIRST OFF; my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD and to say other wise is contrary to the HOLY BIBLE. BUT what you don’t understand is that my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD by NATURE. And so shall the Predestined Bride Members be as well; GOD by nature.
My Lord Jesus Christ is the SON OF GOD or are the scriptures lying. For GOD CANNOT be his own SON just as the SON CANNOT be his own FATHER. Therefore it is CORRECT in saying that the SON OF GOD became GOD by nature BECAUSE GOD was indwelled in the SON; veiled/hidden within the SON OF GOD’S flesh. And this ONLY happened at the river JORDAN. This is were GOD and the SON OF GOD BECAME ONE in the same flesh. This is why I say GOD became flesh BUT i should rephrase it and say THIS is were GOD was veiled/hidden from the world in the flesh of his SON; my Lord Jesus Christ. NOT at his birth for my Lord Jesus Christ was just 100% flesh with only a perfect sinless soul in him. For my Lord Jesus Christ was born from PERFECTION as we were born from sin.
And this is WERE my Lord Jesus Christ had his BEGINNING; a birth; and at CALVARY was my Lord Jesus Christ death as a 100% man WITHOUT GOD indwelled in him; his ENDING as flesh BUT to be resurrected by GOD for my Lord Jesus Christ was GOD by nature and since my Lord Jesus Christ was GOD by nature he and GOD ARE ONE. So all those who have the nature of GOD ARE ALSO ONE WITH GOD and will not see death but be resurrected.
HOW CAN THIS BE YOU ASK? Through the ” TOKEN ” you know the ” SEAL ” which is the HOLY SPIRIT because it is GOD HIMSELF IN US. And how do we receive the HOLY SPIRIT/GOD HIMSELF IN US; by Baptism of Water in ONE HOLY NAME and GOD has to keep his promise and give you the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT which gives you the Sonship to GOD by adoption through the HOLY SPILLED BLOOD of my Lord Jesus Christ.
NOW I am about to say something and I already know you ARE going to disagree but this is to GOD’S HOLY WORD just as everything else I am telling you….. YOU READY FOR THIS….. The VERY first creation was GOD HIMSELF. Then came the LOGOS which is the SON of GOD and then from the LOGOS came SPIRITUAL MAN ( US ); YET ALL GOD IN THREE POSITIONS/ROLES/TITLES/OFFICES AND NOT THREE PERSONS WHO ARE CO-EQUAL.
I will explain more later today for I have a busy day today.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 16:15 pm
Post #385, Candace: It was just a body of flesh. “. . . the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 08:20 am
Dear 2live4God….I will be honored to answer your questions. Now is not a good time for me but when I am refreshed I will give you the answers you deserve.
TSnow, there is something you keep saying over & over & I must address it. You say God dwelt in “the body”. Jesus was “the body” God revealed Himself in. My issue is that sounds like our precious Yeshua was nothing more then an empty body that God took over. Where it is scripturallly sound that God was in Christ, “for it pleased God that all His fullness should dwell in him/Christ.” Col 1:19″ But our beloved Savior was so much more than just a container.
And yes, God/Yahweh is our ONLY Salvation but He “chose” to do that through His Son the promised seed of a woman from the lineage of David the promised Messiah/Anointed One. Jn 3:17; for God sent His son into the world not to comdenm it but the world “through” him/Christ might be saved. That’s what all those perfect spotless lambs were a type of…..God’s plan of salvation i.e. The Lamb of God
Jn 6:57; “Just as the living Father “sent” me & I live “because” of the Father, so the one that feeds on me will live because of me/Christ.” NIV
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 07:54 am
Post #382, 2live4GOD: Ummm, how to respond to a post like this? Why ask Candace why she doesn’t believe in the Deity of Christ, when you don’t appear to either? God took on human form through the virgin birth and not at the river Jordan. There, was heard the voice of God the Father, God the Spirit appeared as a dove, and God the Son [in the body of Jesus] was in the river. The Bible never teaches God became flesh at the Jordan.
What happened at the birth of Christ? - Magi came offering gifts; they asked “Where is He that is BORN KING of the Jews?” [Mt.2, emphasis added]. Note also Lk.2:11 in the Aramaic translation:
“For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David.” There is no savior but God - Isa.43:11; 45:20-22; 63:16. See also post #381.
2live4GOD, I ask you, straight from the heart . . . are you writing your belief[s] as you go?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 07:15 am
SISTER CANDACE:
THANK YOU for the kind words but it’s not me stating all this but HE THAT IS GREATER IN ME. For I am dead to this world and reborn into my Lord Jesus Christ.
For as Paul stated I live in the POWER OF THE SPIRIT for we are ONE in the same.
And you my dear SISTER are strong and courageous for stating a truth YET I can’t grasp why you say my Lord Jesus Christ is NOT GOD..
SO; Let me ask you TWO questions if I may for now….. for I will have more questions for you later…..
1. Why do you NOT believe that my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD; not by man’s belief; but by the nature of GOD is my Lord Jesus Christ GOD IN THE FLESH? ( For my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD BY NATURE just as the Predestined Bride Members shall be also )
2. How do you VIEW the HOLY BIBLE?
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 03:17 am
TSNOW:
YOU STATED: .God, the only Savior of the world, took on human form in the body of Jesus Christ.
MY ANSWER: THAT IS CORRECT….. BUT….. ONLY when my Lord Jesus Christ was Baptized in the river Jordan by John the Baptist. Which is what I have been stating. For that’s when the dove ” HOLY SPIRIT/GOD HIMSELF ” came down from Heaven and indwelled my Lord Jesus Christ who was now the LAMB OF GOD.
BUT before the baptism; my Lord Jesus Christ; was just 100% MAN and was the begotten SON OF GOD. Or else the HOLY BIBLE which is the WORD OF GOD is lying about my Lord Jesus Christ being the begotten SON OF GOD.
Also my Lord jesus Christ is GOD by nature. Just as the Predestined Bride Members shall be as well….. GOD by nature.
How you ask….. by being a DUAL person. 100% flesh YET indwelled with 100% GOD who shall be as his HOLY WORD states….. veiled/hidden within flesh from the world. For the world sees him not and knows him not.
For my Lord Jesus Christ had a beginning; his birth and my Lord Jesus Christ also had an ending; his death.
Just as I have stated to you that the body was not GOD but GOD was in him as GOD is in us.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/31/2012 01:48 am
Post #378, Candace: The reference was to Peter’s testimony in Ac.2:14-36. And just WHO do you think ‘Messiah’ is? -
“I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. I have revealed, and saved and proclaimed - I, and not some foreign god among you. You are My witnesses, says the Lord, that I am God” [Isa.43:11-12].
Isaiah’s words here go hand-n-hand with Mt.16:15-17; Jn.1:1-2,14; 1Jn.4:2-3, 2Jn.7 . . .God, the only Savior of the world, took on human form in the body of Jesus Christ. Again, Isaiah 43:11-12 from God’s Word [trans]:
“I alone am the LORD, and there is no savior except me. I have revealed it to you, I have saved you, and I have announced it to you. There was no foreign [god] among you. You are my witnesses that I am God,” declares the LORD.”
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 21:11 pm
SCOTT DALE:
Do you not understand that a man or woman FILLED with the HOLY GHOST is not a natural being for they are dead to the world and to themselves and live in a supernatural world that is natural to a supernatural being.
Just as 1 Corinthians 2:14 states NO NATURAL MAN WHO IS NOT SPIRITUAL/HOLY GHOST FILLED WILL UNDERSTAND GOD….. BUT LETS READ IT IN FULL NOW…….
1 CORINTHIANS 2:9-16
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
WOW… so a SPIRITUAL/HOLY GHOST FILLED WILL UNDERSTAND GOD JUST AS 1 CORINTHIANS 2:9-16 STATES BECAUSE OF HE WHO IS GREATER IN ME FOR WE ARE ONE IN THE SAME…… AMEN PRAISE GOD.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 20:10 pm
“Now natural man CANNOT understand the mind of GOD but a SUPERNATURAL MAN can understand the mind of GOD and this is shown throughout scriptures.” (Post #376)
You say you can understand the mind of God but you don’t even understand your OWN mind. You have made a very sweeping presumption veiled in a complete mis-statement of 1 Cor 2:14.
Who are these “MANY MEN” that understand the mind of God and just where is it shown throughout the Scriptures? The great prophets of old didn’t even understand it. Paul himself declares such in Romans 11; but I think I hear you saying that you DO understand the mind of God more than Paul himself.
Do you wear a lightning rod?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 19:44 pm
#375 TSnow. If by “Peter” you are speaking of his declaration….”you are The Christ, the Son of the living God”. Peter did NOT say Jesus was God. He said Jesus was the promised Messiah, the “Son” of God.
And yes, everything is at stake for if we have another or a false Christ we don’t even have salvation.
2 Jn 7&9 from The Jerusalen Bible: “There are many deceivers at large in the world, “refusing” to acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in human nature. They are the Deceiver, they are Antichrist. vs 9 If anybody does not remain in the teaching of Christ but goes beyond it, he does not have God w/ him; only those who remain in what he taught can have the Father & the Son w/ them.”
It does matter, our very eternal salvation is at risk.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 19:24 pm
#373…2live4God, beautifully said w/ the anointing of truth from the Word of God.
Are we not partakers of the Divine Nature of our Elder Brother, Savior & Bridegroom. (not 3 different saviors) Did he not purchase that for us by his own blood?
WE too have been redeemed & are indeed New Creations to be “filled” w/ the Spirit of God just as the pattern Son was & is. Yeshua/Jesus IS the Firstborn of this NEW Creation! The world should be able to look at any one of the redeemed & see the Father & the Son living in & through us. That is our reasonable service.
2love4God, you have a tender & intimate relationship w/ your Sabior & Lover of your soul. May we all enter into the intimacy Yeshua has called us to by the power of God’s Holy Spirit.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 19:12 pm
SCOTT DALE AND TSNOW
We need to review how we see the HOLY BIBLE. For we need to realize that you CANNOT treat it like a book or like any other book. For the HOLY BIBLE is ALIVE. For the HOLY BIBLE is written in a past, present, and future all mixed together to form GOD’S HOLY WORD.
The HOLY BIBLE is GOD STILL SPEAKING TO US; veiled/hidden within; just as GOD is veiled/hidden within us. Just as GOD has always been veiled/hidden within from the world. This is why I keep saying the true Sons and Daughters of GOD shall NOT vary at all from GOD’S HOLY WORD. They CAN’T for GOD is in them and we become the very nature of GOD just as all others MENTIONED throughout the HOLY BIBLE. JUST as also my Lord Jesus Christ was as well. And if we are the VERY NATURE OF GOD then we are GODS as well.
For instance SCOTT DALE & TSNOW you state that NO ONE can understand the mind of GOD. WRONG. There has been MANY MEN who has understood the mind of GOD. What it seems is that you either don’t know or forgot that GOD’S WORD is a two edge sword and it has a THREEFOLD purpose.
1. The Holy Bible; SPEAKS and REVEALS GOD’S HOLY WORD; to the Predestined Bride ONLY so that they may read between the lines ( For they are HOLY GHOST FILLED AND THE HOLY GHOST IS THE TEACHER OF THE HOLY WORD )
2. The Church Body reads GOD’S HOLY WORD and ONLY sees the Black WORDS OF GOD on a white page but receive NO REVELATIONS. ( For they are not HOLY GHOST FILLED and therefore the HOLY GHOST CANNOT TEACH THEM )
3. The WORD OF GOD; Cuts and Heals, Protects and Destroys, and GIVES Peace or makes War.
Now natural man CANNOT understand the mind of GOD but a SUPERNATURAL MAN can understand the mind of GOD and this is shown throughout scriptures. For GOD was indwelled within them; veiled/hidden; and therefore natural man received these REVELATIONS and understood GOD.
So therefore if my Lord Jesus Christ is in me and I in him then we are ONE just as shown throughout the HOLY BIBLE just as my Lord Jesus Christ and GOD are ONE then 1 John 2:27 speaks the TRUTH OF GOD’S HOLY WORD when it says ” But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. ” So then GOD’S HOLY WORD CANNOT BE DIVIDED.
Or do you see this merely as words on a page and NOT AS A LIVING BREATHING THUS SAITH THE LORD that moves and lives in us and around us manifesting and producing everyday in our lives and those who are around us.
THEREFORE; if every HOLY TEACHING FROM GOD states that the HOLY SPIRIT shall teach you all TRUTH’S of his HOLY WORD then there should be no variances in our postings for the WORD of GOD CANNOT BE DIVIDED FOR IT’S ONE HOLY WORD, ONE HOLY BELIEF, AND ONE HOLY TEACHING.
So therefore one of us must be wrong.
Just as the parable of the ten virgins states; there were two groups who recognized the Bridegroom Yet only ONE group had the oil to make the wedding feast journey; so is this something we both can afford to lose.
For the HOLY BIBLE states GOD in this day will let all believe the false doctrines while only a small group shall believe the truth.
Therefore if this world is filled with so many false doctrines just as the days of old then there must be the ONE REAL GOD’S TRUTH out there somewhere just as the days of old. My Lord Jesus Christ is our example for he alone had GOD’S TRUTH while he was surrounded with false churches and false dogmas of the world just as today.
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT FOR ALL OF US.
Also SCOTT DALE let me hear your view on ROMANS 9:5 which says ” Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. “
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 17:50 pm
Post #373, Candace: Everything? Peter’s testimony is not going to change. So again, what is really at stake?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 17:38 pm
post 373 WHAT’S AT STAKE:
I apologize deeply for my mess. This Administration snatched this away from me in mid-sentence before I could proof read & correct, saying I’ve posted it before. Truth is, I haven’t posted this scripture & it’s very frustrating to not have the freedom here to repeat or reiterate whatever thoughts I might like to share.
Please read on your own …Acts 2:22-34 from the NIV. I would love to hear/read any comments.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 17:32 pm
What’s ar stake???? Hummmm, I think everything. I would like to quote 2 scriptures that are quite profound.
Acts 2:22-34 NIV “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Naareth was “man” acclaimed by God to you by miracles, wonders & signs, which GOD DID AMONG YOU THROUGH HIMas you yourselves know. Tthis “MAN” was handed over to you by God’s set purpses & foreknowledge, & you w/ the help of wicked men, put him to death by mailing him to the cross. But God “raised” him form the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, becaue it was impossible to keep its hol do him. David said about him/Christ;
I saw the LORF/Yahweh always before me
because He is at my right hand, I willnot be shaken.
Therfore my heart is glsd & my tongue rejoices, mY body also willlive in hoope,
because You wil not abondon me to the grave, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
You have made known to me the paths of life; You will fill me w/ joy in Your presence.
Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died & was buried & his tomb is here to this day. But he was a
prophet” & knew that God had promised him an oath the he would place “one of hid descendants on his throne”. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke this of the resurrection of Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. “GOD has raised this Jesus to life”, & we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit & has poured our what you now see & hear. For David did not ascend to heaven, & yet he said:
The LORD?YAHWEH said to my Lord/Messiah/Jesus
Sit at My right hand until I?Yahweh made your enemies a footstool for you/Yeshua’s feet.
Therefore let all Israel be assued of this: agod made this jesus, whom you crucified, both
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 07:39 am
Post #368, 2live4GOD: Lets look again . . .
“Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
“In my post 368….. John 4:23-24….. my Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to the woman at the well and he just told her that GOD is the HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST and that GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST are one in the same and not TWO separate persons.”
Jesus did NOT tell the woman that God is the Holy Spirit/Ghost and that God and the Holy Spirit/Ghost are one in the same and not two separate Persons.
He said . . . “God is…spirit…” He is not ‘a’ spirit, nor is He ‘the’ spirit. He IS . . . spirit [little ’s’]. The Holy Spirit IS . . . the Spirit of God.
The ‘Triune God’ was NOT developed/invented at Nicea. That God exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons was and is an ETERNAL truth. Those Bishops at Nicea simply AFFIRMED that truth at the command of Constantine, because there divisions in the church as to who Jesus Christ was/is. Post #366 is merely a human attempt at describing a DIVINE truth - can’t be done as is made clear in post #370. Again, the ‘trinity’ is a divine truth - no one can describe it via reason, which is corrupted. Watch . . .
“Now GOD CANNOT be his own Son and the Son CANNOT be his own Father. And if the Holy Spirit is a separate person who impregnated Mary the virgin; and then GOD; who you claim is also a separate person; says this is my begotten Son….. did my Lord Jesus Christ have TWO FATHERS then. For the HOLY BIBLE states that GOD is the Father to my Lord Jesus Christ and created all for him. So then who is my Lord Jesus Christ REAL FATHER then?”
Brother, here, you are trying to REASON a truth that cannot be reasoned by anyone but God. The finite cannot describe the infinite.
“Since the Bible is an infinite revelation, it often brings the reader beyond the limit of his/her intelligence.”
You might do a study of Ps.82 in it’s entirety, as that may help interpret Jn.10:22-42.
“Don’t you see that this is the truth. We have always been with GOD; just as my Lord Jesus Christ was; therefore we have always existed eternally with GOD and we are a part of GOD.”
What do you mean by ‘We have always been with God; just as my Lord Jesus Christ was;…’ We have always been with God? Perhaps, in the mind of God - His foreknowledge [Rom.8:29-30]. Is this what you meant? And haven’t you mentioned that Jesus Christ had a beginning as well as an ending?
Anyway, looks like I’ll get back on the road with Covenant Trans next week. T.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 07:17 am
“OR are you gonna tell me that there are TWO SEPARATE CO-EQUAL DISTINCT HOLY SPIRITS/GHOSTS?” (Post #369)
I will tell you nothing of the sort because I don’t understand the mind of God but apparently, you do. All I know is what Jesus said; “I will ask the Father, and he will give you ANOTHER Counselor to be with you forever.., for HE lives with you.”
When YOU can explain this without mangling the text, then perhaps I will answer your challenge.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 04:25 am
Tiuche, (Post #365)
You said:
“If you who espoused the TRINITY find it difficult to comprehend-if you yourselves have a hard time in understanding it, what is the use of teaching the Trinity to us??
Trying to understand the doctrine of the Trinity is simply impossible and no one here is trying to get anyone to understand it. It is unquestionably impossible for the human intellect to ascent to it. The Doctrine of the Trinity does not exist to accomplish this. I repeat; the Doctrine of the Trinity DOES NOT exist to accomplish this. Three Persons in One God is merely a feeble human attempt to define the mystery regarding the infinite, uncreated, majestic nature of God as revealed in the Scriptures. But therein lay the problem because:
“Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.” psalm 139:6
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! “Who has known the mind of the Lord?” romans 11:33-34
But can you try and just understand this: The Bible assigns deity to 3 different beings and yet says there is only One God. To the human experience this is clearly an oxymoron; but which part of the revelation should we jettison, nullify or modify? Is God asking us to understand it? Does ANYONE fully understand God? Do we believe Him because we understand Him or do we believe Him simply because He says it??
It’s always good to try and understand not only the ways of God but also the nature of God; yet even Paul was bewildered by them both. Though words are completely incapable of communicating these things; the things that are revealed are communicated through WORDS and God’s words have meaning that dare not be modified.
Can I or TSnow answer the intellectual craving to explain HOW there can be three persons in One God?? Of course not.., and yet; “With God, ALL things are possible”.
As far as any practical purpose for this doctrine goes, it is undeniably valuable and important. Is it “necessary” for justification? Probably not, however, the entire basis of having a faith that saves rests on the proper understanding of WHO IT IS that our faith is placed IN. And when it comes to living a life of faith on a daily basis, the same thing holds true. Does not the measure of our personal confidence, our peace, our joy, our power, our sanctification, our hope and our love all depend on a right understanding of who God is? Does it make no difference regarding “abundant living” whether Jesus Christ is God or not? Whether the Holy Spirit is God or not? Is Romans 9:5 a meaningless slip of the pen? Will confidence in prayer not be helped by the knowledge that the Holy Spirit really IS “God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose” and not merely some divine, yet impersonal force?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 04:10 am
SCOTT DALE:
In my post 368….. John 4:23-24….. my Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to the woman at the well and he just told her that GOD is the HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST and that GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST are one in the same and not TWO separate persons. So now the trinity is down from three to TWO.
OR are you gonna tell me that there are TWO SEPARATE CO-EQUAL DISTINCT HOLY SPIRITS/GHOSTS?
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 03:30 am
SCOTT DALE:
Then explain…..
John 4:23-24
23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the ( FATHER ) in spirit and in truth: for the ( FATHER ) seeketh such to worship him.
24. ( GOD IS A SPIRIT ): and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
So ask yourself who is the FATHER? So is the FATHER & is GOD the same single person or two separate co-equal persons? If so; then is GOD, is the FATHER, & is the HOLY SPIRIT; the ONE and only true single GOD or is the FATHER, the HOLY SPIRIT, and GOD three separate co-equal persons as well?
Acts 5:3-4
3. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the ( HOLY GHOST ), and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4. Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, ( BUT UNTO GOD. )
So then; is the HOLY GHOST & GOD; the one in the same SINGLE HOLY PERSON or are they two again? So did Ananias then lie to GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT?
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 03:20 am
“NOT two separate distinct persons.” ?? (Post #366)
If they are NOT separate and distinct, then our God is like a schizophrenic madman and the author of confusion. How are we to take John 14:15-17?
15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the FATHER, and HE will give you ANOTHER Counselor to be with you forever– 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept HIM, because it neither sees HIM nor knows HIM. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
If there are not 3 separate and distinct Beings in these few verses, then how can anything in the bible be believed?? Does not the word “another” mean.., ANOTHER??
Do you have a simple, concise answer that would be worthy of respecting the plain meaning of these WORDS or will you be compelled to mangle them also?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/30/2012 02:28 am
TSNOW:
If GOD is the SELF EXISTING ONE, what form was GOD, always was, and shall always be to remain the same SELF EXISTING ONE who is Eternal?
ANSWER: the HOLY SPIRIT.
Therefore we CANNOT separate GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT for they are one in the same SINGLE ENTITY.
NOT two separate distinct persons.
Now to explain this if I can a little more simpler.
When I say GOD in three separate distinct roles/positions I mean GOD himself in his HOLY SPIRIT FORM which GOD always is.
Now GOD CANNOT be his own Son and the Son CANNOT be his own Father. And if the Holy Spirit is a separate person who impregnated Mary the virgin; and then GOD; who you claim is also a separate person; says this is my begotten Son….. did my Lord Jesus Christ have TWO FATHERS then. For the HOLY BIBLE states that GOD is the Father to my Lord Jesus Christ and created all for him. So then who is my Lord Jesus Christ REAL FATHER then?
Also, my Lord Jesus Christ is the BEGOTTEN Son of GOD or else GOD’S HOLY WORD is false and we might as well throw away the HOLY BIBLE for then it is a false WORD. For GOD’S HOLY BIBLE states very plainly that my Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of GOD throughout the HOLY BIBLE or was GOD lying for GOD himself states this right out.
So really think about this for a moment….. GOD is, GOD was, and GOD always will be the HOLY SPIRIT; the very same SELF EXISTING ONE; not TWO separate ENTITY’S; GOD’S true physical form IS the HOLY SPIRIT FORM ALONE.
So now we know beyond a doubt that GOD & the HOLY SPIRIT are one in the same; not TWO separate persons.
Now my Lord Jesus Christ is and always shall be 100% man born from a virgin who knew no man and GOD is his Father. So just in that my Lord Jesus Christ was born sinless and perfect. For GOD cannot be anything less and neither will GOD’S offspring.
So if GOD cannot be his own Son and the Son cannot be his Father then how can this be and what does it mean by the word became flesh?
The WORD is my Lord Jesus Christ who was Spoken into existence by GOD into Mary; this is the beginning of my Lord Jesus Christ created on Earth; instead of Mary knowing a man even though it would of been through her husband; my Lord Jesus Christ; would of still been born through sin. This was the curse back at the Garden of Eden….. remember.
Therefore my Lord Jesus Christ had to be born as the Lamb of GOD as stated throughout the HOLY BIBLE without blemishes or spots.
Now remember I said the body is 100% man and not deity but what was in him was deity which was GOD himself; well this is how it all started for my Lord Jesus Christ as 100% man and ended at Calvary as a 100% man. For he was GOD’S chosen Lamb. But GOD did not indwell my Lord Jesus Christ until his baptism at the River Jordan. Then GOD spoke to John the Baptist and GOD came down as the DOVE; which is the HOLY SPIRIT; and indwelled his Son, the Lamb. Yet GOD left his Son at Calvary so to take on OUR sins unto death; for GOD CANNOT do this deed; for GOD is perfection and eternal.
Don’t you see that my Lord Jesus Christ and GOD were a DUAL BEING; one that was 100% man and one that was 100% GOD. For only GOD could do the miracles throughout my Lord Jesus Christ ministry. Just as it is today. Just as it was then. It has ALWAYS been GOD doing the MIRACLES throughout the HOLY BIBLE veiled/indwelled in 100% man. NOT MAN doing the miracles.
So because GOD was physically in his Son; my Lord Jesus Christ; this is why my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD; BECAUSE my Lord Jesus Christ is the very image of his Father just as we take on the very same image of my Lord Jesus Christ . Just as the PREDESTINED BRIDE MEMBERS who are also a part of GOD. For we as well ARE DUAL BEINGS INDWELLED WITH GOD. This is why it states in Psalms and in John by my Lord Jesus Christ ” WE ARE GODS. ”
PSALMS 82:6
6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
JOHN 10:34-35
34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Don’t you see this is to scripture.
GOD’S SAME PLAN OF DOING THINGS. GOD ALWAYS VEILED/HIDDEN IN MAN TO DO HIS ( GOD’S ) OWN WILL AND WORKS THROUGH US.
Don’t you see that this is the truth. We have always been with GOD; just as my Lord Jesus Christ was; therefore we have always existed eternally with GOD and we are a part of GOD.
GOD is just claiming back what is rightfully his own.
So you see the trinity is a pagan belief started by man; it just received a title now; the trinity doctrine.
And it does matter what you believe. Eve made the same mistake and believed a false doctrine; mixed satan’s dogmas with the WORD OF GOD; and look what happened. This goes for us as well. We must believe every HOLY WORD SPOKEN BY GOD and do not add or take away from it for GOD shall remove us from the Book Of Life forever. This is the truth of the matter for when has GOD lied and did otherwise….. NEVER.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/29/2012 16:33 pm
T.Snow: Post #359, You said: Thinking about these things [anything denying the Triunity of God], it seems to me, the arguments AGAINST the doctrine of the Trinity actually make it MORE difficult to comprehend than it already is.
My comment: If you who espoused the TRINITY find it difficult to comprehend-if you yourselves have a hard time in understanding it, what is the use of teaching the Trinity to us? Would it be a sin against God if we stick with the Bible and lay aside the man made doctrine of the TRINITY?
You added: Again . . . I asked a little while ago, “Why would a Christian NOT want this to be true?” - Let me ask it a little differently: Why would a Christian, actively attempt to prove God does not exist in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons? And even more . . . what IF the doctrine of the Trinue God IS true?
My comment: IF it is true! But is the TRINITY true? Yes & No! Yes for those who believe in it and NO for us who dont believe in it! Does those who don’t believe in it sin against God? No!
Those Christians who don’t believe in it tries to prove that God does not exist in three co-equal c0-eternal person because they see it as another lie! An extra biblical doctrine that tries to limit God in three co-equal persons and made -up not by the Apostles of Christ but by men whose reputation as inspired of God are questionable! So let us stick with the scriptures if we want to schism among the body of Christ!
You add: Think with me for a moment [please] . . . if I [TSnow] were to actively deny that God exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons . . . and then one day learn it’s true . . . the only one its going to effect, is ‘me’ . . . bottom line. It’s NOT going to change God one tiny bit. So what is really at stake here?
And if anyone here is reading this thinking, “Well, I’m not worried about that because it ISN’T true!” - then there are deeper issues that need be addressed.
My comment: God won’t take away your salvation just because you did not believe the TRINITY even if God indeed is the Trinity!It is an extra biblical doctrine where in there is the possibility (let us say 30%) that it is a lie! God had warned us about adding to His Word, do you think this warning does not apply to the extra biblical doctrine of the TRINITY? Why insist on an extra biblical doctrine when we all could be one in the scriptures?
“For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)..”verse 5 1 Corinthian 8. Note there ARE MANY GODS & LORDS IN HEAVEN not limited to THREE!
“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”VERSE 6 of 1 Corinthians 8. Note that the Apostles tell us that though there be MANY GODS & LORDS IN HEAVEN more than THREE, we as TRUE BELIEVERS have only ONE GOD the Father and ONE LORD Jesus Christ. IS THAT NOT YET CLEAR T. SNOW?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/29/2012 10:09 am
Re-post #359: It is stated here, “So what is really at stake?” The intention was, if I choose to deny [that] God exists in three Persons, what is at stake? The truth is not going to change whether I believe it or not.
God has done it all. He is Ceator, Redeemer, Sustainer of all things. He abides in every believer [in Jesus] through the presence of His Holy Spirit, which we read in Col.2:9-10.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/29/2012 07:44 am
oops! that would be a reg. horizontal hyphen 
No more I promise
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/29/2012 06:38 am
Post #361, Candace: Salami, salami, baloney. Thank You.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/29/2012 06:25 am
#360 T, you make me laugh:) If you are serious….. just type a colon & then a right hand bracket. Scott Dale makes a very interesting “smile” using a verticle dash for a nose.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/29/2012 06:19 am
Post #358, Candace: This is not a doctrinal Q - but how do you make that smiley face at the end of a sentence? Can’t figure it out. Ok, no more extra-biblical questions.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/29/2012 00:25 am
Post #356, 2live4GOD: Well put in post #357.
Thinking about these things [anything denying the Triunity of God], it seems to me, the arguments AGAINST the doctrine of the Trinity actually make it MORE difficult to comprehend than it already is.
Again . . . I asked a little while ago, “Why would a Christian NOT want this to be true?” - Let me ask it a little differently: Why would a Christian, actively attempt to prove God does not exist in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons? And even more . . . what IF the doctrine of the Trinue God IS true?
Think with me for a moment [please] . . . if I [TSnow] were to actively deny that God exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons . . . and then one day learn it’s true . . . the only one its going to effect, is ‘me’ . . . bottom line. It’s NOT going to change God one tiny bit. So what is really at stake here?
And if anyone here is reading this thinking, “Well, I’m not worried about that because it ISN’T true!” - then there are deeper issues that need be addressed.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/29/2012 00:03 am
post 353 T Snow…..you’re a sweetheart:)
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 23:27 pm
Tractorman:
Solomon said it best ” There is nothing new under the sun….. Literally! “
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 16:52 pm
SCOTT DALE AND TSNOW:
Read what MODALISM is and I DO NOT believe that belief at all. For I MYSELF VARY from that belief.
For I believe that my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD. The ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.
SO if my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD, and the HOLY SPIRIT is GOD, and so is GOD in the Heavens; then GOD has ALWAYS been the ONLY ONE GOD who is, who was, and who is still yet to come. For like I said GOD in three separate distinct roles/positions.
You CANNOT categorize me as a Unitarian Believer, nor a Binitarian Believer, nor a Trinitarian Believer, nor a Modalism Believer.
For they are all PAGAN BELIEFS.
UNITARIANS believe in ONE GOD but that my Lord Jesus Christ is just a man and a prophet.
BINITARIANS believe in TWO separate distinct persons/individuals that are co-equal and are both GOD YET stem from ONE GOD. So it’s still TWO GODS. Binitarianism is also understood to be a strict monotheism belief as well.
TRINITARIANS believe in THREE separate distinct persons/individuals that are co-equal and are all GOD YET stem from ONE GOD. So it’s still THREE GODS.
The Trinity is a false christian doctrine that deals with and describes the nature of God. This pagan doctrine asserts the following:
1. There is one and only one God. ( CORRECT )
2. God eternally exists in three distinct persons. ( WRONG ) They ARE 3 separate distinct ROLES/POSITIONS
3. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. ( CORRECT )
4. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit, etc. ( WRONG ) The Father is not the Son, The Son is not the Father, and the Holy Spirit IS The Father.
MODALISMS; also known as Sabellianism; believe all are GOD but as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in THREE separate distinct ROLES. But that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never coexisted together at the same time but came at appointed times throughout time. So GOD acted out each role when that time came.
I am more a mixture of all these.
GOD is the only ONE TRUE GOD. ( Unitarianism )
GOD is the Father and my Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of GOD and yet my Lord Jesus Christ is GOD ( Binitarianism )
GOD is in 3 separate distinct ROLES ( Trinitarianism )
GOD coexisted with the Son and the Holy Spirit because it’s GOD to begin with ( Modalism )
Now I know what you are going to say ” How in the world ” and ” I am mangling scriptures. ”
This is far from the truth. Let me explain for one moment and try to see what I am saying.
In the beginning was GOD IN ALL HIS GLORY. Now what was GOD? Exactly a HOLY SPIRIT FORM ONLY AND NOT A PHYSICAL BODY YET.
Now BEFORE our carnal minds tries to intervene and contradict; let’s review this before we go further. GOD is not a separate entity from the HOLY SPIRIT because GOD has NO BODY and is, and was, and will always be a HOLY SPIRIT FORM.Do you understand now?
Why it’s not THREE SEPARATE PERSONS; because it really comes down to TWO; GOD and his SON; for GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT are ONE. We as carnal beings separate GOD from his TRUE FORM which is and has always been A HOLY SPIRIT FORM.
Now this is were I might lose you.
GOD has before all time and creation existed as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit always.
This is why it’s three separate distinct roles GOD is fulfilling.
Because GOD separated himself and from GOD came forth the LOGOS/THE LIGHT. Now the Logos is the very essence and life of GOD. Let’s call it GOD’S DNA. And CONTAINED in this Logos/GOD’S DNA was my Lord Jesus Christ… and you ready for this… GOD’S PREDESTINED BRIDE MEMBERS according to GOD’S HOLY WORD.
1. GOD in the Fathership Role in the Heavens
2. GOD in the Sonship Role indwelled in his Son my Lord Jesus Christ YET is GOD
3. GOD in the Holy Spiritship Role in his true PREDESTINED Sons and Daughters who are the Bride Members
Here are the three separate distinct roles of GOD he himself is fulfilling.
This is getting long and can get longer so I will cut it short for now.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 16:45 pm
I’m ’stunned and shocked’ that we are not the ONLY ones discussing this issue - lol
Early Church history evidence of the Trinity espoused:
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/debate5.htm
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 14:28 pm
Dear Brother
Please explain what you writen (post 399) difference between God and Jesus: Jesus has a beginning and an ending, God has no beginning and no ending;
i have little confusion
By
Timothy.R.Gosula
(wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 13:24 pm 
Post #352, Candace: Westernized thinking can surely play a part in misinterpretation at times. Agreed. Have a great week. T.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 07:25 am
#350 Dear T, I’m saying we need “more” of God’s Word then the translations that come from the perverted Latin Vulgate. Think how awesome it would be if we could get our hands on bibles that were translated strickly from the original copies of the manuscripts!
My heart has never been one of divisiveness….I’m hungry for Truth. The more I understand the Hebrew language & it’s idioms the better I understand what the writers of God’s Word were saying w/out our westernized mindset getting in the way. The more I can understand Greek the clearer the words of our Savior & the rest of the NT writers become.
Many words have been distorted & made to say something they don’t. Even such a small thing as created “by” vs created “through” can change the whole meaning of who did the creating. Or God vs a god.
Don’t we all owe it to ourselves & our Lord …”to study the word of God to show ourselves approved.” (2Tim 2:15)?
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 06:32 am
Post #346, Scott: Wow. Did a brief search on “Modalism,” and thus understand a little better the source of this view.
Modalism causes a truckload of problems. I can’t even imagine what a person would need to do to make that fit. Thanks.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 05:46 am
Claiming we need an understanding of the Bible languages in order to truly grasp what the Bible teaches is not true: 1) it is a claim [that] the Bible we have today is not reliable, and 2) it is dividing, separating believers who know what the Bible truly teaches from those who don’t -
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” [2Tim.3:16-17].
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/28/2012 04:40 am
post 346 Dear Scott Dale…………thank you so much for Grace. I do indeed know who my Savior is
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 23:00 pm
Touche, Tiuche! (Post #347)
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 16:30 pm
Scott Dale/ T Snow( withCandace & 2Live4God): On my part I won’t judge Candace & 2live4God as to the genuineness of their relationship to Christ and God because they view our Father unlike as we see-just because they don’t believe the Trinity-like me. We are all like blind men groping upon the wall…seeing things through smoke glass and we will all fall or stand before the Master in the future…
If we think ourselves as elders brothers in Christ…as possibly mature in Him…it is also possible that Candace and 2live4God are our little sister and little brother in Him…or possibly more mature than us….as I have said we cannot limit GOD nor put Him in our pockets!
The sign that we have a genuine relationship with Christ does not lay more on our perfect doctrines but on the LOVE we have in our hearts toward one another. No, I
do not say that there is no possibility of the danger in having a mangled and erroneous doctrines on any believers-for God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
I know all of you are aware of these things-it is just a reminder for all of us!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 15:35 pm
TSnow (#345)
Yes, the whole thing is entirely convoluted but in the broad analysis, Candace will deny the deity of Christ and 2Live will acknowledge it. However, 2Live’s interpretation of Christ’s deity makes a dreadful mangling of the scriptures, much more so (in my opinion) than even Candace’s.
Do a search on “modalism” and you will begin to tap into where he’s coming from. Both Candace and 2Live appear to profess a genuine relationship to Christ. I would not be one who insists that only “true” believers will embrace the trinity doctrine.
But the long-term embrace of error will certainly have a deleterious effect and will no doubt be a subject at the judgment seat of Christ (Mat 12:36-37).
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 15:05 pm
Post #340, Scott: Not sure, bro. What’s beig posted seems mixed. 2live4GOD posted: “GOD made a vessel of clay in Mary who was a pure woman and was a virgin and she conceived my Lord Jesus Christ who is now the Son of GOD. Just as promised by GOD himself unto himself in old testament. So GOD is fulfilling his own promises to man unto himself. And this is how my Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of GOD and my Lord Jesus Christ becomes our KINSMAN REDEEMER. Now thirty years pass and my Lord Jesus Christ is going down to the Jordan River to be baptized by John the Baptist; his cousin. This is were my Lord Jesus Christ becomes GOD in flesh on Earth when the Dove meets the Lamb. This is the union of Father and Son on Earth. And there is so much more there but it’s a different topic” [#336].
We know that, in agreeing He was the Son of God [Mt.26:62-66], Jesus was claiming Deity, that He was/is God [Jn.10:31-33]. Now it appears from what is here posted, that the Son of God is not eternal, but existed from the virgin birth. Christ’s baptism at the Jordan is not where Jesus became God in flesh. Rather, God became flesh through the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
Again, I could be misunderstanding post #336. If so, some clarification is appreciated.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 07:52 am
post 341. I can only answer for myself but I believe the “ending” 2live4God is talking about is the fact that Jesus really did die. He would have stayed as dead as any of us if God had not raised him from the dead & “gave” him his eternal, glorified body. The same kind of body the faithful will receive on that promised resurrection day. Jesus showed us a glimpse of that body on the Mt of Transfiguration. Jesus had been given eternal life from the Father & he will never taste of death again.
This is the promise to those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God, our Messiah & through him laying his life down as God’s Perfect Lamb, taking all the sins of the world upon himself & becoming sin for our sakes, those who call him Lord(not God) will be saved.
Scott you’ve mentioned this before, then any “righteous” man could pay for the sins of the world if Jesus is just a “good” man. WRONG. #1 there are NO “good” or righteous men on all the planet nor have there been since Adam’s fall. All have sinned & come short of the Glory. Jesus is the only one that was “begotten” by God Himself & was born WITHOUT the sin nature we have all inherited. He was born sinless & chose to live sinless in complete obedience to God his Father. It didn’t take God dying (which in impossible for the eternal God)to pay for our salvation. It took the blood of His sinless Son, the Last Adam, a human being made like unto his brethren. Every Passover Lamb was a shadow of that truth. Every Day of Atonement replays this truth again & again. It took the blood of a Man to pay for the sins of man. (Ro 5:17)NIV
There is ONE God & one Mediator between God & men, THE MAN Christ Jesus. (ITim 2:5)
There is NO one else like him! But he IS the Firstborn of many brethren that will be just like him when our redemption is complete. Right now our spirit’s have been redeemed back to God by the Son’s shed blood but our soul’s are in process as we “work out out salvation in fear & trembling.” (Phil 2:12) Our bodies are the last to be redeemed. When that happens , we won’t know what we shall be but we know we shall be just like him! (IJn 3:2)
About Melchizedek……we must have a Hebraic understanding to grasp what is being taught here. According to God’s covenant w/ Moses there can be no priest or high priest outside of the Tribe of Levi. One must be born into that tribe only to be a priest. Jesus is our High Priest forever but he is from the tribe of Judah, Seed of David. (Rev 5:5)
Melchizedek had no “priestly” lineage but has been appointed by God. He has no mother or father from Levi as that covenant had not been made yet. God alone sent Melchizedek to Abraham thus establishing the “right” for Jesus/Yeshua to be our everlasting High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. If you read some Hebrew teaching on Melchizedek it should become more clear.
I feel our understanding of the Hebraic mindset is crucial to understaning any of these truths. Messiah was promised to the Jews (not us) & they knew he was to come from the lineage of their King, David. Yeshua has fulfilled that & more.
Please allow me to leave you w/ this:
Acts 17:31; “Because He/God hath appointed a day, in which He/God will judge the world in righteousness by that MAN/Christ which He/God hath ordained, whereof He/God hath given assurance unto all men, in that He/God hath “raised” him/Christ from the dead.” KJV Yeshua does not have to be God, He has the fullness of the ONE God Almighty revealing Himself to us through the Son.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 07:48 am
No T……we label the trinity as pagan because the Scriptures themselves do not teach it. Jesus is the Son of God not God the Son. the Lamb of God not God the Lamb.
No one can understand it not even you because it is a false doctrine from satan himself
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 06:44 am
Post #339, 2live4GOD: “Look here it is plain and simple of my Lord Jesus Christ; the Body was not Deity, but Deity dwelt in the Body JUST as Col. 2:9 states yet my Lord Jesus Christ was the true SON OF GOD. Or how else can you explain Hebrews 7:3.”
You are absolutely right. There is only ONE Deity - God. He appeared in a body [of flesh]. This IS the ‘Mystery of Godliness’ [1Tim.3:16].
“Melchizedek” is more of a title or office. It means: ‘King of Righteousness.’ And Salem means: ‘King of Peace.’ There is only one King of Righteousness - Jesus.
‘Rightly Dividing’ the entire chapter of Hebrews 7 tells us that Jesus Christ IS the Melchizedek. It was the eternal Son of God to whom Abram gave a tenth of the plunder [Gen.14].
It is realized you may be thinking this is whacked-out and TSnow is probably high. Think about it: ‘King of Righteousness’ cannot possibly refer to one of us, for even the very best WE can do is as filthy rags before God [Isa.64:6; Rom.3:10].
When we form our belief on only ‘parts of’ Scripture and not the whole, we meet with confusion. If the Tri-unity of God is not true . . . it mixes up the whole story. But I strongly sense that this is not going to be realized at this point.
Personally, I agree to disagree and will leave it at that. I will be going back out on the road with a trucking company soon, and will have much less time. Thank You for the sharpening. God Bless. T.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 06:19 am
Post #339
“Now, here is the difference between God and Jesus: Jesus has a beginning and an ending..,”
I am used to discussing the argument regarding the pre-existence of Jesus but how is it that Jesus will have “an ending”? What do you mean by this? Was the Son of Man not fully man? If not, that raises disastrous theological problems. But if he was (is) fully man, how is it that the most righteous of men will not inherit eternal life like those he came to redeem? Is it not true that Jesus is “the Firstborn among many brethren”? Did Jesus conquer death only to die or cease to exist someday? Does he not now sit at the right hand of the Father as the scripture says (I imagine your doctrine forbids this)?
In my opinion, this doctrine comes dangerously close to heresy and if held too tightly will usurp the vitality of a personal relationship with Jesus.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 05:42 am
T,
Perhaps I don’t need to mention this, but Candace and 2Live4God do not share the same view regarding the deity of Christ. True, they both deny the Trinity, but Candace denies the deity of Jesus while 2Live4God does not.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 05:17 am
TSNOW:
YOU STATED: Then he says, “FOR [because] in Christ the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
MY ANSWER: I am not denying my Lord Jesus Christ is in fact GOD at all. Believing otherwise is contrary to GOD’S HOLY WORD.
I have been stating that it is and always has been GOD in three different distinct roles/positions/titles.
GOD in the Fathership Role in Heaven
GOD in the Sonship Role living inside his Son on Earth; my Lord Jesus Christ who was 100% man
GOD in the Holy Spiritship Role in GOD’S true PREDESTINED Sons and Daughters on Earth
Look here it is plain and simple of my Lord Jesus Christ; the Body was not Deity, but Deity dwelt in the Body JUST as Col. 2:9 states yet my Lord Jesus Christ was the true SON OF GOD. Or how else can you explain Hebrews 7:3.
Now, here is the difference between God and Jesus: Jesus has a beginning and an ending, God has no beginning and no ending; yet Melchisedec had no beginning as well as no ending, but Jesus was made liken unto Melchisedec. So now EXPLAIN this to me then?
What I tell you is GOD’S TRUTH and therefore what I do not and will not agree with is this PAGAN belief of the trinity which is three gods whether you want to see it or not; but know this; the Bride Members will and shall carry GOD’S TRUTH as stated throughout the HOLY BIBLE and shall not differ from GOD’S HOLY WORD.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/27/2012 02:31 am
Candace & 2live4GOD: You have labeled the Triuniy of God ‘false,’ simply because it exceeds your ability to comprehend it. It exceeds mine and everyone elses.
Recall when our discussion centered on Col.2:9? What had the apostle written just prior: [v.8]
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”
Then he says, “FOR [because] in Christ the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
See, the Deity of Christ was being denied even back then. It was not ‘invented’ at the Council of Nicea - only a descriptive word for it was established then.
But here in Col.2, Paul is telling his readers not to listen to teachings that deny Christ’s Deity . . . FOR [because], God came to us in the body of Jesus Christ. Now, take this passage and align it with 1Jn.4:1-3, then with John 1:14 [perhaps even adding 17:5].
Hopefully one day, you both will wonder [in one way or another] . . . what was/is the significance of acknowledging Jesus has come in the flesh? If He is only a created, there IS NO significance.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/26/2012 23:35 pm
2live 4God has made some very valid points here. They are scriptural & for the most part are accurate. There is no need for 3 gods in one when we understand God’s plan from the beginning. The Feasts of the LORD are the hidden essence of God’s redemption plan for fallen mankind. Four of these Feasts have been revealed & fulfilled for those willing to see. Refusing to come out of the paganized church keeps our eyes blinded to Yahweh’s Soverign & Glorious plan.
Each Feast intricately & intimately protrays the Father’s extrodinary love to bring us back into fellowship w/ Hismelf. Satan has managed to dupe the whole world for a very long time now when he introduced the pagan tiune god into Chritianity. “Broad is the way to eternal damantion……” “narrow is the gate to eternal life & FEW find it.”
2live4God is so right…..those who find the Truth will be rejected & persecuted by those who hold on to this false doctrine. Jesus garanteed it! Satan has deceived so many into believing the God of the Universe Who is from everlasting to everlasting is His “Own” sacrifice & God Himself died on a cross. This out & out heresy and it is inconceivable & ludicrous All those spotless lambs pointed to Messiah (chosen one of Yahweh), Not Yahweh!
God & God alone is the Creator of All things. Scripture plainly teaches this. He created all things through & for His Son “BY” His Word that became human in the fullness of time. (Gal 4:4) I Am God & there are NO gods besides Me.
Trinitarians can argue all they want & do a multitude of scriptural gymnastics & double talk but when you get right down to the bottom line of this dispicable doctine……….2live4God has said it clearly….you have 3 gods! You can call them persons, divide God in three parts, have God empty Himself of Who is is (Unchageable) only to finally say…”IT’S MYSTERY” doesn’t change the fact that to believe in a triune God who is Co-Equal & Co-Eteranl is to have 3 gods! To say different is to be deceived. THE FULLNESS OF GOD DWELT IN HIM/CHRIST. Col 2:9
There’s enough scripture spoken by Jesus, himslef that he IS NOT equal to the Father nor has he ever been. There is a multitude of scriptures that teach us the Son is from the lineage of Adam (The Last Adam) & is from his father David & will rule on David’s throne. We have more then enough scriptures to support God & He alone rasied His Son from death & the grave, Elevated him to be seated “on” His right hand. WE see over & over again GOD “gave” Jesus His authority, His Glory, His Name. All that the Son has is because the Father “GAVE” it to him as his “inheritance” & we are joint heirs IF we Believe in the Only “Begotten” Son, made a little lower than the angels(Heb 2:9) that was born, lived & died as one of us….human. (Heb 2;17)
The biggest problem we have is the failure to recognise what a glorious & stunning creation MAN was to be. Created in the very image of God Himself. Clothed in HIS very Glory. Unbroken & holy communion. God’s masterpiece until sin entered, death followed & all was lost……except God/Yahweh had a Divine Plan of total Redemption. To bring all mankind BACK to how we were to be from the beginning…..His Son, THE LAST ADAM/Yeshua. Jesus was God’s 2nd attempt to create man in His own image, sinless, perfect lacking nothing. Just as God breathed life into the 1st Adam, He overshadowed the virgin Mary w/ His Own Ruach haKodesh(Sacred Breath) & she conceived a real, genuine human child that was free from the curse of a fallen nature. Jesus grew in wisdom, stature & favor with God. He learned obedience by the things he suffered. Jesus was totally capable of sinning just like the 1st Adam. He possessed his own free will. We see that in the garden of Gethsemane. But HE DID NOT because of his great love for his Father & the understanding that he WAS Messiah & if he failed to walk obedient & totally dependant of his Father…we would all perish & be sentenced to hell for eternity. His love drove him to do what ever it took to complete his Father’s plan of redemption. He didn’t have to, God would have understood. Jesus was w/out sin but he CHOSE to die as God’s Spotless Lamb for our sakes. He knew he was the only “Lamb of God” & he was willing to be seperated from his Father for eternity if that’s the price to bring all of mankind back to fellowship w/ the Father. God of course being all just, would not allow His Holy One to see corruption (how could God see corruption?) & God ALONE raised Jesus fromt he dead!
TSnow forgive me, but you said some very blasphemous things back a few posts…..God Almighty, the Soverign LORD IS “NOT” the sacrifice for sin! GOD CAN NOT, IS NOT & WILL NEVER BE SIN! To say that is gross ERROR & misunderstanding of Who God is & what His word says. Jesus, THE SON, became sin! God had to depart from His Son when Jesus fully became all sin, disease & iniquity of the whole world. That’s why Jesus cried out w/ absolute agony & abandonment….”MY GOD, MY GOD why have You forsaken me?????” He knew he could make it through this horrendous ordeal if his Father remained w/ him until the end but when Yahweh departed & w/drew His Spirit for the 1st time in Yeshua’s life, his torment was more than he could bear & shortly after Yeshua/Jesus said…”into You hands I commend my “spirit.” He died. God can not die or He IS NOT eternal. Jesus is subordinate to God even now in Heaven so he IS NOT co-equal.
You owe nothing to that false demonic pagan doctrine of the tinity that comes from the pit of hell to steel from us all our True Messiah! Stop defending it. Lay it aside & seek God for His revelation on Who He is & who His Son is! You will be amazed! Will you be persecuted???? You bet!!! Jesus promises it.
If the whole world loves & accepts you & your beliefs, you’d better watch out. Somethings not right.
Those of us who bring this truth to you w/ such passion do so out of love. We ache, we long, we pray that all God’s children come out of the harlot church & her paganism, into the truth of the Word of the One True & ONLY GOD! There are more then you know who are “seeing” & coming out of centuries of deception. Your bibles have been influenced by the Latin Vulgate they’ve been translated from………find 1 or 2 that have been translated from the manuscripts themselves. A different picture begins to emerge.
I am done w/ this subject. I’ve posted much w/ many, many scriptures & explained God’s Feasts etc. They all seem to be ignored & fall on deaf ears in defense of this doctrine of devils.
In His Grip
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/26/2012 20:34 pm
TSNOW:
YOU STATED: The POINT was, man is only able to grasp the truths God has chosen to reveal to us.
MY ANSWER: That is correct YET the more we grow in GOD’S TRUTH and accept it as truth… GOD reveals more and more unto you. The HOLY BIBLE states that we are given in measures for our growth and for our benefit. Yet the deeper we get others grow less and less. For GOD’S truth many CANNOT handle and therefore only go so far and the ones who go deeper and deeper become rejected just as my Lord Jesus Christ was for they said he knew not the WORD OF GOD yet my Lord Jesus Christ was the TRUE LIVING WORD OF GOD.
What I tell you is the truth. I truly understand what you are saying about the trinity… yes it is all GOD… but were we differ is GOD has revealed this to me and it is not one God in three separate persons who are co-equal… it is One GOD in three different roles/positions in which GOD must fulfill himself for these were promises he had made unto himself and no one else could ever complete this EVER.
And it is true if you have THREE SEPARATE DISTINCT PERSONS you have three gods.
Lets look at it like this for a moment what the trinity belief really is…
TSNOW you are a person which is singular.
Now you just had a baby boy; TSNOW JR. He is your offspring, your seed, BUT even though he is from you; HE IS NOT YOU. So now you have two separate distinct persons.
Now TSNOW JR. has a son. He is TSNOW III. He is your SON’S seed and offspring YET his genes stem from you. YET he is not you NOR your son. So now you have three separate distinct persons.
So now can TSNOW JR & TSNOW III be you if you are you? Could any of the TSNOW’S be each other? NO THEY CAN’T.
For all of you only share a name.
THEREFORE YOU HAVE THREE SEPARATE DISTINCT TSNOW’S EVEN THOUGH IT COMES FROM YOU. This is the true definition of the trinity belief.
NOW THIS IS WHAT GOD DID AND WHY HE IS NOT A TRINITY…
GOD made a vessel of clay in Mary who was a pure woman and was a virgin and she conceived my Lord Jesus Christ
who is now the Son of GOD. Just as promised by GOD himself unto himself in old testament. So GOD is fulfilling his own promises to man unto himself. And this is how my Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of GOD and my Lord Jesus Christ becomes our KINSMAN REDEEMER. Now thirty years pass and my Lord Jesus Christ is going down to the Jordan River to be baptized by John the Baptist; his cousin. This is were my Lord Jesus Christ becomes GOD in flesh on Earth when the Dove meets the Lamb. This is the union of Father and Son on Earth. And there is so much more there but it’s a different topic.
Now lets review for a moment GOD was in Heaven in the FATHERSHIP ROLE; for Abba means Father; in the old testament BUT a promise was made for a MESSIAH to appear who would be the Son of GOD. And now GOD is inside a sinless clay vessel from birth who is my Lord Jesus Christ; Son of GOD; and GOD is now indwelled in him 100%. The same GOD, the same GOD IN HOLY SPIRIT FORM, YET GOD CHANGED NOTHING OF WHO HE IS… GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH; AS PROMISED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT; LIVING IN HIS SON. GOD is now in the SONSHIP ROLE.
Now lets zoom ahead again to calvary. My Lord Jesus Christ is crucified as PROMISED BY GOD to Abraham in the old testament. And while my Lord Jesus Christ was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane GOD had left his only begotten Son; our Kinsman Redeemer; to suffer as the ULTIMATE sacrifice. My Lord Jesus Christ had to go through this and only his HOLY SINLESS BLOOD could be accepted for the sacrifice. GOD cannot die so GOD’S son’s death become our salvation. Then three days later my Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected as promised by GOD and returned back unto the Father in Heaven to sit as a mediator for man. Also didn’t my Lord Jesus Christ himself stated that he and GOD were one in the same.
DON’T YOU SEE IT? I am jumping and shouting for joy over here. GOD IS ETERNAL; and yet; my Lord Jesus Christ had a beginning ( his birth ) and an ending ( his death ) YET MY LORD JESUS CHRIST HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD IN ITS ORIGINAL ESSENCE….. HOLY SPIRIT FORM.
It’s just a TITLE, a ROLE, a POSITION that GOD HIMSELF STEPPED INTO to fulfill his will for man since man kept breaking there end of the contract to GOD. We kept failing him so it took GOD TO DO IT FOR US.
Can’t you see… it’s GOD… IT IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN GOD IN A HOLY SPIRIT FORM.
GOD FIRST WAS A HOLY SPIRIT. THEN GOD MADE CHILDREN SO HE COULD BE A FATHER BUT THEN WE DISOBEYED AS NAUGHTY CHILDREN SO GOD HAD TO COME DOWN IN FLESH AS THE SON OF GOD TO RESCUE US FROM OURSELVES.
This why it’s…
GOD the Fathership Role/Title/Position
GOD the Sonship Role/Title/Position
GOD the Holy Spiritship Role/Title/Position
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/26/2012 18:02 pm
Post #334, 2live4GOD: “You are correct in stating that our feeble minds cannot grasp nor explain what has been revealed to us to others UNLESS we allow ourselves to move aside and let he who is greater in us speak through us.”
The POINT was, man is only able to grasp the truths God has chosen to reveal - and that He has not revealed everything. Thus, there are truths in Scripture, such as God existing in three Persons [not ‘gods’], that we will not fully understand in this life, no matter how much we pray, cry, beg, plea, fast, etc - it is a mistake to think otherwise.
The Council of Nicea [A.D.325], simply established a definition for a truth which already WAS - that God exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons [not ‘gods’]. . . they established a word to describe a biblical, eternal truth. They did not ‘invent’ the Trinity.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/26/2012 05:54 am
SCOTT DALE & TSNOW:
SCOTT DALE:
You are correct in stating that the Holy Spirit is alive and self existing because it is and it’s GOD. God has always been a Spirit Form. God had to always create a body to veil himself in which is shown throughout the HOLY BIBLE.
But the truth is maybe you need to choose your words more precisely for it was never three different distinct persons BUT GOD himself in a new role or position.
My mind does grasp VERY well GOD’S TRUTH of his HOLY WORD. For I believe what is stated in 1 John 2:27 which states that the anointing which you have received of him ( Lord Jesus Christ ) abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him. I believe that with all I am full heartedly.
And I also believe what is stated in the HOLY BIBLE when my Lord Jesus Christ states that when we abide in him he abides in us and my Lord Jesus Christ knows all truth for he is the HOLY WORD and the revealer of the HOLY WORD and it shall NEVER DIFFER IN ANY WAY from GOD’S HOLY WORD.
And as for the doctrine of trinity it was created by man and it came from the Council of Nicaea which created the Nicene Creed. The Nicolaitans whom GOD HATED.
Here is the definition for the three man made false doctrines of the GODHEAD.
UNITARIANISM ( one GOD/one person/individual ),
Also I am far from the Unitarian belief which states that Unitarians adhere to strict monotheism, and maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, but not God himself.
BINITARIANISM ( one GOD/two persons/individuals ),
I am also far from the Binitarian belief which states Binitarianism is two personae, two individuals, or two aspects in one Godhead (or God).
TRINITARIANISM ( one GOD/three persons/individuals )
And I also far from the Trinitarian/Trinity belief which states that the doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial.
According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin. While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.
I am believe there is but one true GOD and he himself is in THREE DIFFERENT DISTINCT ROLES/POSITIONS and NOT three different distinct co-equal persons/individuals. GOD the Father, GOD the Son, GOD the Holy Spirit.
GOD himself merely changing roles/positions as a Fathership Role, as a Sonship Role, and as the Holy Spiritship Role.
TSNOW:
You are correct in stating that our feeble minds cannot grasp nor explain what has been revealed to us to others UNLESS we allow ourselves to move aside and let he who is greater in us speak through us. For doesn’t GOD’S HOLY BIBLE state that we should not take heed to what we shall say but let my Lord Jesus Christ speak his HOLY WORD.
And if we are truly reborn then we no longer exist and my Lord Jesus Christ exists and this world has no life in us. For we are from another place always looking a far off waiting for its glorious return.
FOR WE ARE BUT LABORERS AND GOD IS THE REAPER.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/26/2012 03:07 am
Post #330, 2live4GOD: A ‘vessel’ is a container. The Son of God, who is without sin, took on human form in a VESSEL of flesh.
Just to tag-on to the first paragraph in post #332 -
“Because of our limited capacity in this life, some of the revelations of God given to us in the Bible defy explanation and illustration. When seeking to explain those truths that fall into this category [i.e. the Triune God], our explanations and especially our attempts to illustrate them must of necessity fall short of our ability to clarify and comprehend them.”
So, the doctrine of the Triune God is not true because it defies human logic/reason?
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ” [Col.2:8].
Everything you have written in post #330 is exactly Paul is talking about here. The attempt to ‘explain’ God existing in three Persons IS . . . human reason[philosophy]-in-action. You claim to have revelation God has not yet allowed the [human] finite mind.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/25/2012 23:26 pm
Post #330
You are STILL trying to establish a doctrine that explains the eternal relationship between the Father, Son and Spirit. Do YOU not understand that the Doctrine of the Trinity NEVER attempts to do what you are trying to do? You are trying to explain something that is COMPLETELY inexplicable to a finite mind. Give it up! The Trinity doctrine is not man made. It is simply an acknowledgement of what the scriptures DECLARE. It does NOT try to rationalize it.
When the scriptures clearly portray the Holy Spirit as having a gender; a mind; a will; emotions; morality (holy); speech; the ability to act and any number of other characteristics attributed uniquely to persons; it is simply intellectual dishonesty to suggest the Holy Spirit is somehow LESS than a person.
Perhaps “person” IS a poor choice of words to categorize the Holy Spirit because He is surely MORE than a person. But the uniquely human identity known as “personhood” is only legitimate because these are the qualities and attributes derived from God himself in whose image we have been created. Therefore, our “PERSONHOOD” is a dim reflection of God himself. No other material creature possesses these things. By this definition even angels and demons are persons, yet without a material body (which is quite another discussion altogether).
The Trinity doctrine does not try to figure out all the ramifications and nuances of such biblical revelation. It just acknowledges them. Your doctrine takes it too far by trying to figure out just HOW a monotheistic faith such as Christianity can attribute Deity and person-ality to three distinctly different beings. If God wanted us to know that, He would’ve made it clear but we can’t even fully handle the wonder of the Incarnation let alone the mystery of the Trinity. As a result, your doctrine has to concoct all sorts of ridiculous interpretations and theologies making God look rather silly at best or schizophrenic at worst.
And to those who say the Holy Spirit is not EVEN a person but rather a force or power only, they have an even a bigger problem because there is not one attribute or characteristic of God mentioned in the OT that is not similarly mentioned of the Holy Spirit in the NT (with the possible exception of being the “self-existant One”). So, if the Holy Spirit does not possess person-ality; neither does the God of the OT. If the Holy Spirit is not deity; neither is the God of the OT.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/25/2012 21:08 pm
SCOTT DALE AND TSNOW:
I apologize for the word BLIND on post 329.
I meant it like this; Seriously… are you both really that blind to the word ” persons ” and do not realize the definition for the word ” persons. ”
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/25/2012 16:02 pm
SCOTT DALE AND TSNOW:
Seriously… are you both really that blind and do not realize the definition for the word ” persons. ”
PERSON: noun
1. A living human.
2. An individual
3. The living body of a human
4. Physique and general appearance.
5. Christianity Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them.
Did YOU both notice definition #5 above. The key word was ” SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS ” which is now three different distinct co-equal GODS. Because they came from GOD so therefore they are also GODS.
You CANNOT state that they are three different distinct persons and then turn around and state that they are all co-equal and in co-unity and then say they are but one GOD when in reality the trinity makes all three of them GODS. Especially since you state three different distinct persons/individuals. And by the way ” Distinct ” means ” Separate. ”
INDIVIDUAL: adjective/noun
a. Of or relating to an individual, especially a single living human
b. By or for one person, single living being
c. Existing as a distinct entity; separate,
n.
a. A single human considered apart
And did you both notice the #c definition above. Which states three different separate entities but not changing from the original entity. So it is therefore clarified as THREE DIFFERENT SEPARATE GODS.
Therefore the trinity belief is PAGANISM and by the way I DO CLEARLY understand the GODHEAD.
YET AS YOU BOTH REPLIED: You are stating the doctrine incorrectly. It is not “THREE different distinct co-equal GODS”. It is THREE different distinct co-equal PERSONS!
ANSWER: Do you not realize ” three different distinct persons ” translates to ” three different separate persons/individuals. ” And by doing that you have created ” THREE GODS ” from ” ONE GOD ” who as you both state are co-equal and in co-unity EXCEPT that they are THREE different separate persons/individuals.
But this is the TRUTH of the matter. For if you take the ONE TRUE GOD; and separate him as you both have; to form ” three different separate persons/individuals ” it is still a part of GOD and remains as GOD YET you both have made them all co-equal in every way YET they are all unique to themselves but are still of GOD.
SO therefore it’s ” THREE DIFFERENT DISTINCT/SEPARATE GODS. ” And then you put these three different distinct/separate persons/individuals back together to form ONE GOD again. This is the TRUTH of your pagan trinity.
For we know GOD is a Spirit Form, my Lord Jesus Christ is flesh indwelled with GOD in Spirit Form, and the Holy Spirit is GOD in Spirit Form. ONE GOD in THREE DIFFERENT DISTINCT POSITIONS.
NOT three different separate persons/individuals. GOD IS GOD alone. And GOD CANNOT change. GOD simply moves into another position YET remains the same single ETERNAL GOD.
For my Lord Jesus Christ stated he and the father are one. So then by this statement he is saying he is GOD himself.
And this is why he was crucified.
NOT AS TSNOW POSTED: To what is referred with the term ’sinless vessel’? A body of flesh? There is no such thing as a sinless vessel.
ANSWER: WRONG. My Lord Jesus Christ was SINLESS in every way. He was the only SINLESS person EVER in the flesh.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/25/2012 15:53 pm
Post #327, 2live4GOD: Post #328 is here applauded. In response to post #327,
“I am clearly stating that the trinitarian/trinity belief is PAGANISM for you CANNOT take THREE different distinct co-equal GODS and make them into ONE GOD to worship for now you are worshiping THREE GODS in all truth and not ONE GOD.” -
This, is a misrepresentation, as stated in post #328. No one here who holds to the Triunity of God is attempting to “make” three different distinct co-equal GODS into ONE GOD. Further, it has not been suggested that there are three “GODS.” Rather, God exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons - equal in essence/nature, distinct in roles.
“This belief CONTRADICTS the very WORD OF GOD in every way. For the Holy Bible states very clearly there is ONLY ONE GOD period.” -
Agreed. The belief in three “gods” DOES contradict the clear teaching of Scripture [Isa.44:6]. But as we have seen, this is a misrepresentation of the Triune God - and a misunderstanding for that matter.
“YES; it’s all GOD in Spirit form; BUT in three different positions. YET when GOD became flesh GOD had to create a sinless vessel for himself to indwell in for the world was full of abominations and sins and no man was worthy to fulfill GOD’S WILL OF REDEMPTION.”
To what is referred with the term ’sinless vessel’? A body of flesh? There is no such thing as a sinless vessel. Rather, God, through the Son took on human form [Phil.2:5-11; 1Tim.3:16].
“This was the promise from GOD himself; from the old testament that a saviour would be born and would be the Son of Man, the Son of GOD, and the Son of David; YET in this vessel of 100% flesh of man GOD himself would be indwelled in this 100% flesh of man in ALL his Glory.”
Once again, God, through the Son, took on human form. The titles ‘Son of Man’ and ‘Son of David’ had special significance to the nation Israel [please see: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-Man and http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-son-of-David for a better understanding].
John 17:5 > “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” - tells us Jesus, the Son of God, laid aside His glory in becoming a man, as we saw in Phil.2 above.
Will stop here. Contrary to your statement, nothing has been ‘disproved’ here, and calling the doctrine of the Triune God ‘PAGANISM’ . . . means nothing. The question is . . . does the Word of God teach that He exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons? Disbelief in this truth is the result of interpreting Scripture in parts/pieces with a disregard for the whole.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/25/2012 07:53 am
“you CANNOT take THREE different distinct co-equal GODS and make them into ONE GOD” (Post #327)
You are stating the doctrine incorrectly. It is not “THREE different distinct co-equal GODS”. It is THREE different distinct co-equal PERSONS!
And as stated before, the Trinity doctrine does not exist to EXPLAIN the mystery of these revelations; it only exists because these revelations are DECLARED in the Word of God. You are trying to understand an eternal mystery that can never be apprehended by a finite being; but that does not stop you from forging a doctrine that is intellectually satisfying to yourself regardless of how it mangles the scriptures.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/25/2012 05:44 am
TSNOW: ( REPOSTED FROM MATTHEW 28:19 )
I am clearly stating that the trinitarian/trinity belief is PAGANISM for you CANNOT take THREE different distinct co-equal GODS and make them into ONE GOD to worship for now you are worshiping THREE GODS in all truth and not ONE GOD.
This is by all means; PAGANISM; like it or not.
This belief CONTRADICTS the very WORD OF GOD in every way. For the Holy Bible states very clearly there is ONLY ONE GOD period.
YES; it’s all GOD in Spirit form; BUT in three different positions. YET when GOD became flesh GOD had to create a sinless vessel for himself to indwell in for the world was full of abominations and sins and no man was worthy to fulfill GOD’S WILL OF REDEMPTION.
ONLY GOD himself could do and fulfill this PROMISE to man’s salvation.
This was the promise from GOD himself; from the old testament that a saviour would be born and would be the Son of Man, the Son of GOD, and the Son of David; YET in this vessel of 100% flesh of man GOD himself would be indwelled in this 100% flesh of man in ALL his Glory.
For this was the only way for GOD to REDEEM all creation.
By becoming the Kinsman Redeemer; GOD; could now do the work himself through a vessel of a sinless man of Redemption. This was the only way.
And since GOD is a Spirit form; GOD; needed a body for himself to indwell in to REDEEM mankind for GOD was now one of us in the flesh.
Therefore, GOD; CANNOT be three different distinct co-equal and three different distinct in co-unity individuals.
This is PAGANISM.
So instead of avoiding my questions all the time why not answer them. There is only ONE NAME and NOT three different distinct co-equal individuals to be Baptized in.
And that’s ACTS 2:38 period.
So just based on this; the trinity is disproved; and is paganism. For you CANNOT take the three different distinct co-equal GODS and make them ONE GOD for now you have three GODS to worship in all truth and not ONE GOD.
It has ALWAYS been ONE GOD fulfilling three different positions throughout the HOLY BIBLE which is the VERY WORD OF GOD.
So please tell us what is the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit so that way every one can know this incredibly long name to be Baptized in according to your belief of the GODHEAD since it’s three distinct co-equal individuals.
For it clearly states in Matthew to Baptize believers into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So each one had THEIR OWN NAMES then? Since this is your belief of the GODHEAD; please; feel free to tell us all these three names of your GODHEAD in which to be baptized in.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/24/2012 23:31 pm
Post #324, 2live4GOD: you have typed . . . “Here is the belief and definition of the trinity/trinitarian belief:
The doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons (Greek: ὑποστάσεις) the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial (Greek: ὁμοούσιοι). Put another way, the three persons of the Trinity are of one being (Greek: οὐσία). The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of Christian faith”. . . .[And] “According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, “it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds”. While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.”
Is there a problem? And what you have typed here…
“Trinitarianism (one deity/three persons) contrasts with Christian non-Trinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity/two persons), Unitarianism (one deity/one person), the Oneness or Modalism belief, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ view that the Godhead is a council of three deities, perfectly united in purpose and will, but nevertheless separate and distinct individuals.”
In this paragraph, what specifically are you referring to as [being] ‘Christian’?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/24/2012 23:05 pm
Post #323, TIUCHE: Brother you’ve missed the point of the quotation as well as Lk.10:21. This verse [Lk.10:21], goes hand-in-hand with Mk.10:14 > Let’s put ourselves ‘in the moment.’ It’s somewhere in Jerusalem around 33A.D. It’s hot & dusty…many going about their daily routines. Then a few people start bringing little children to see Jesus. These kids are probably flicking boogers at each other or something, they don’t know who Jesus is. But the disciples rebuked them [”Hey, the Master doesn’t have time,” or something to that effect]. Jesus gets upset about that, telling His disciples to let the children come to Him, “for the kingdom of God belongs to SUCH AS THESE” [see v.15 also]. What was He talking about?
Personally, I believe He was talking about innocense and humility. ‘Innocence’ no doubt, referring to sin. But this other word, ‘humility’ - on the average, young children have a bizillion questions about life, etc. They’re like sponges, because they don’t know. Guess that goes along with innocence.
But what being as little children refers to is, laying aside our “self” [pride] with all ‘knowledge,’ ‘intelligence’ and so forth. Laying it all at the foot of the Cross and admitting, “Jesus, I’m not all I thought I was; glorify yourself in me.” This is for all of us - elder Christians as well as new Christians. It is at THAT point, God can mold and use us and reveal more of His heart. It’s called ’surrender.’ And if we as Christians don’t struggle with surrender on a daily basis, there’s a problem.
This is the point of that quotation. The Bible clearly teaches God has revealed Himself in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons. And to think this isn’t true because it defies human reason/intelligence, is rather . . . self-exalting.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/24/2012 08:15 am
TSNOW AND SCOTT DALE:
The trinity doctrine is a man made doctrine that was created by man making GOD into 3 distinct yet co-equal GODS yet stemming from one GOD. This is not so as you state and believe to be truth. This is NOT taught by GOD at all.
Here is the belief and definition of the trinity/trinitarian belief:
The doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons (Greek: ὑποστάσεις) the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial (Greek: ὁμοούσιοι). Put another way, the three persons of the Trinity are of one being (Greek: οὐσία). The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of Christian faith.
According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, “it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds”. While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.
Trinitarianism (one deity/three persons) contrasts with Christian non-Trinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity/two persons), Unitarianism (one deity/one person), the Oneness or Modalism belief, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ view that the Godhead is a council of three deities, perfectly united in purpose and will, but nevertheless separate and distinct individuals.
This belief is WRONG in every way and is not as suggested as to be GOD’S truth for in fact it is considered by all standards as paganism.
GOD the Father, GOD the Son, and GOD the Holy Spirit are all GOD but not in three distinct yet co-equal and in co-unity of one another.
It is GOD himself fulfilling three positions/or three different offices.
1. Fathership
2. Sonship
3. Holy Spiritship
GOD has always been a Spirit form hence the word ” Elohim ” which means the self existing one, also GOD came in the flesh as promised veiled in a single man YET still in Spirit form inside a body of flesh, and returned back to Heaven again YET GOD was in a Spirit form still.
And believers are indwelled with the same Spirit of God called the Holy Spirit.
So GOD manifested himself to us as a Father, a Son, and as the Holy Spirit. Three different distinct positions/offices YET all are GOD alone.
Therefore GOD is not a unitarian, binitarian, nor a trinitarian.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/24/2012 07:44 am
T.Snow:
You said: The use of the words ‘Trinity’ and/or ‘Triunity’ is not important. But the truth they describe IS… That God exists in three equal, eternal Persons is not a truth any of us fully understands [Isa.55:8-9].
If you went to the link at the bottom of post #317, reading in its entirety, you noted the following:
“Until a person recognizes that his own wisdom and intelligence are not enough, he is not ready to listen to God’s greater wisdom. Jesus alluded to this when He said to God, ‘You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children’” [Lk.10:21].
My Comment: You mean to say that those who donot believe the TRINITY have their eyes blinded by God? The Apostles and the early believers never heard the word TRINITY and the TRUTH that it brought! THEY HAVE ONLY THE SCRIPTURES TO GUIDE THEM-and they were more godly than many of us now. The Trinity was only officially introduce to Christendom in the 8th century A.D.
You also limit GOD IN three person by your Trinity doctrine-like you can imprison GOD in such terms of men…God is in all persons for He is not far from each of us…and as I have constantly reminded all of you:
”For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. us” (1 Corinthian 8:5-6).
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God …
Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/23/2012 12:53 pm
Post 3318, TIUCHE: Very well. The use of the words ‘Trinity’ and/or ‘Triunity’ is not important. But the truth they describe IS.
This truth is interwoven throughout the pages of both Old and New Testaments. Timothy writes that the Word of God needs to be “rightly divided” - separated into parts and/or pieces - looked at and examined. Interpret Scripture with Scripture. That God has revealed Himself in three Persons is not seen in a few verses here and there, but in the whole story.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/23/2012 07:37 am
Post’s #318/#320, TIUCHE: Surely, Prov.27:17 comes to light here. Brother, you mentioned Phil.2:6. Let’s look at this verse if you will, adding a little more context . . .
The apostle is encouraging us to be ‘like-minded,’ with regard to selflessness, humility, compassion, etc. Then he says . . . [vv.4-5]
“Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
1.Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
“[He] who, while He was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that He was the equal of God.”
2.God’s Word Translation:
“Although He was in the form of God and equal with God, He did not take advantage of this equality.”
3.Weymouth New Testament:
“Although from the Beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.”
Within it’s context, what Paul is saying in v.6 is, first, he believed in the Divinity of Christ; and second, [that] Jesus did not consider His equality with God a truth easily comprehended. God took the form of a servant in the body of Jesus. THIS, was the ultimate act of humility, and so the apostle encourages us to be like-minded in how we treat one another.
Question: Are you thinking something like, “Well, the God of the Universe would never take the form of a servant!” or something to that effect?
If this reveals our thoughts about God, there is much ABOUT God we have missed.
That God exists in three equal, eternal Persons is not a truth any of us fully understands [Isa.55:8-9].
If you went to the link at the bottom of post #317, reading in its entirety, you noted the following:
“Until a person recognizes that his own wisdom and intelligence are not enough, he is not ready to listen to God’s greater wisdom. Jesus alluded to this when He said to God, ‘You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children’” [Lk.10:21].
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/23/2012 06:32 am
Scott Dale: You have not probably read my various posts on the Trinity from the start. There is no argument with me that Jesus Christ is God, the Holy spirit is God-I agree with those views! What I have been pointing from the start is that the TRINITY-a doctrine of men- is not true! Why?
Because: First the Holy spirit is not a person!
Second-though Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God yet
His Father is GREATER than Him-the Father alone is Good and knows
all things!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/22/2012 13:13 pm
Tiuche (#318)
Yes, of course we would tell you all those things about God; but to those who say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God when the Bible clearly says they are naturally creates a problem. If the word “Trinity” is such a stumbling block we can certainly dispense with it. But be assured of this; it is the doctrine of biblical revelation and NOT the doctrine of men. If you strip this doctrine from the inspired revelation of God; you seriously diminish God Himself. If anyone thinks that is not a problem they need to think again!
TSnow has made a good point: “Why would a Christian NOT want this to be true?” In other words, just exactly HOW does the revelation that Jesus and the Holy Spirit possess the same attributes of Deity as the Father diminish God in any way? Does it not rather elevate God?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/22/2012 12:42 pm
T.Snow: It is possible that God could reveal Himself in three persons! But did He reveal Himself in three persons? That is the question we would always debate by your existence on the Trinity! Why won’t we just stick with the
scriptures instead of the teachings & doctrines of men such as the TRINITY?
We know the the scriptures are the Word of God, and why do you insist that we should also believe the Trinity which is the doctrine of men?
We just go round and round on this discussion if we won’t stick with the Bible. Who is your God anyway? The Trinity? Or would you not rather tell us that your God is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob?Would you not rather tell us that your God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Would you rather tell us that your God is the Heavenly Father?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/22/2012 11:59 am
Post #316, TIUCHE: Brother, “Trinity” or rather, “Triunity,” is simply a word used to describe a biblical truth. A truth plainly set forth in this discussion. Is it not possible, that an Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God, could reveal Himself in three equal, eternal Persons if He chose to?
This is what is troubling . . . that, there are Christians, who deny that God HAS revealed Himself in three Persons. WHY is it not true? One response might be, “The Bible doesn’t teach it.” But WHY would a person NOT want to believe it? That God has revealed Himself in three Persons - why would a Christian NOT want this to be true?
Check out the following site. I hope you will . . .
http://bible.org/article/trinity-triunity-god
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/22/2012 07:58 am
T.Snow: There is no word “Monotheism” in the Bible-that is right, but do those who do not believe in the Trinity even use that word in the discussion that God is ONE? No, we donot rely on that extra-biblical word-rather we always present to you the sure Words of God:
”For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. us” (1 Corinthian 8:5-6).
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God …
Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
But it seems you would hold on to the term and definition of men-the TRINITY than the Scriptures; which if we all just stick to the scriptures we could have all been united as brothers and sisters in Christ!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/21/2012 12:06 pm
Post #313, Scott Dale: . . . absolutely - until that day, as the classic hymn sings, “When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no more . . .”
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/20/2012 22:14 pm
T, (#313)
“We’ve all listened to the wrong voice at one or more times in life.”
And we’ve suffered the consequences too!
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/20/2012 21:00 pm
Post #311: Thank You. Guess what is most troubling here is, there are Christians who exert effort in disproving the doctrine of the Trinity. Again, the word “monotheism” isn’t in the Bible either; but that there is One God . . . is. They’re just listening to the wrong voice, that’s all. We’ve all listened to the wrong voice at one or more times in life.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/20/2012 18:39 pm
post 307. Dear Tiuche…Amen & amen!
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/20/2012 07:18 am
In my opinion, the deniers of the Trinity Doctrine are compelled to do so because in part, they can’t understand it. If they simply stopped there, that in itself would be understandable. But then, they wouldn’t be “deniers”. They would simply be doubters. Denier’s MUST come up with an alternative doctrine and herein lays the Devil’s brew.
The Doctrine of the Trinity is not a doctrine that even attempts to make the mystery of the Godhead understandable. It is a MYSTERY and CANNOT be understood with a finite mind. The Trinitarian Doctrine is merely a consolidation of the many bible texts that attribute Deity, personhood and individuality to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If God wanted us to understand it, he would’ve explained it. But He doesn’t explain it; He only declares it. This is undeniable and acceptable to everyone except the denier’s.
The denier’s are compelled to make sense of it all. To them, the mystery MUST be intellectually understandable. Therefore, they concoct a brew that not only butcher’s the revealed Word of God, but creates a lie in its place. This is the Devil’s doing just as surely as the first temptation in Eden was: to gratify the intellect without any directive from the Word or Spirit of God (”She saw that it was good for gaining wisdom”).
The Doctrine of the Trinity does not, nor pretends to satisfy the intellectual conundrum that these revelations in God’s Word pose to the human mind.., even the regenerate human mind! It is sheer folly to try and do so.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/20/2012 05:58 am
Post #309, 2live4GOD: “You are trying to say that the concept of the Trinity is clearly taught.” It isn’t?
Perhaps I should re-word: “The Bible clearly teaches, God has manifested Himself in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” though all three are . . . “God.”
In the Old Testament God dealt with mankind through the prophets - and was rejected [1Sam.8]. In the Gospels, God’s presence with mankind was represented on the earth in the body of Jesus Christ, and again, God was rejected [Jn.19:14-16]. In the book of Acts, Jesus had risen and returns to the Father [ch.1]. And in ch.2, God comes to indwell believers through the presence of His Holy Spirit, forming the Church - the Body of Christ on the earth. Note: the purpose of a ‘body’ is to [make visible] a ‘personality.’
Thus, ever since Pentecost in Acts 2, God’s presence with mankind on earth is in the Church - through every believer in Jesus.
This, is what was referred to as being clearly taught in Scripture. Father, Son and Holy Spirit - all three are ‘Deity’ - all three are ‘God.’ The use of the word ‘trinity’ or phrase ‘tri-unity’ is not important. What is important is . . . does the Bible teach it? And as has been seen, yes, it does.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/20/2012 01:09 am
TSNOW:
You are trying to say that the concept of the Trinity is clearly taught. Well so is the concept of Binitarian and Unitarian. So then these should be just as RIGHT as your belief. Yet they are all wrong even yours. For these are the assumptions and dogmas of man and satan.
Instead one should say that GOD is fulfilling three different positions himself throughout the scriptures; such as Father in Heaven in a Fathership position, Son on Earth in a single mortal man in a Sonship position, and the Holy Spirit in all of GOD’S children in a Holy Spiritship position; and yet it’s GOD in each of these three different positions in a perfect GODHEAD.
The Fathership position is GOD as a father to his children alone while GOD sits in Heaven.
The Sonship position is GOD veiled in a 100% body of man yet he is 100% GOD inside this man. Also the Sonship position for my Lord Jesus Christ to follow as the Son of Man, the Son of GOD, and the Son of David.
Son of Man- 100% God in Flesh on earth veiled in a 100% man
Son of GOD- Holy Spirit in us veiled just as GOD’S HOLY WORD shows us and GOD never changes for he is perfect and sticks to it.
Son of David- Lord Jesus Christ comes back at his second coming to Reign as King Of Kings and Lord of Lords
The Holy Spiritship position is GOD veiled again in MANY human vessels on Earth who are his true Sons and Daughters.
Doe not the Holy Bible teach us that the name LORD JESUS CHRIST is GOD alone and no other.
For instance in Genesis to Malachi “LORD” was GOD in Heaven.
And Matthew to John was “JESUS” 100% GOD veiled in a single 100% Man on Earth prophesied to born from a virgin.
Then Acts to Revelation is “CHRIST” which is GOD in Holy Spirit form in us.
So therefore the only name to be Baptized in is ” LORD JESUS CHRIST ” just as stated in Acts 2:38. And this is what Matthew 28:19 was trying to explain to us for it wasn’t how it was stated but he was trying to show us there was only one name for GOD and all his GLORY and that was ” LORD JESUS CHRIST. ”
This is the complete and perfect GODHEAD.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/19/2012 22:06 pm
Post #307 hurts my eyes looking at it. The word ‘trinity’ is not in the Bible, but the concept is clearly taught. The word ‘monotheism’ isn’t in there either, but that there is One God is also clearly taught.
The phrases ‘God the Father,’ God the Son’ and ‘God the Holy Spirit’ are not going to be found in the Bible. The Tri-Unity of God is seen in considering the WHOLE story. As long as we take verses here and there out of the context of the whole claiming, ‘the trinity is false,’ we will remain stumped.
Further, calling the doctrine of the Tri-Unity of God a ‘pagan’ teaching means absolutely nothing. The question is, does the Word of God teach it? And it has been made abundabtly clear throughout this discussion, the answer to THAT question is yes.
A lot of Christians have trouble with God manifesting in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons. And that’s ok. Sooner or later, it will be made clear.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/19/2012 06:22 am
Here is an excerpt of what the Trinity is according to the Athanasian Creed:
Source: http://eyring.hplx.net/Eyring/Notes/trinity.html
Now this is the Catholic faith: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor separating the substance; for one is the person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit; but the divinity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one, the glory equal, and the majesty coeternal. What the Father is, such is the Son and such the Holy Spirit: the Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated; the Father is immense, the Son is immense, the Holy Spirit is immense; the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal and nevertheless there are not three eternals but one eternal, just as there are not three uncreateds or three that are immense, but one uncreated and one that is immense. Similarly, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent; nevertheless there are not three omnipotents but one omnipotent. So also the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord; and nevertheless there are not three Lords but one Lord: because, just as we are compelled by Christian truth to confess that each person is individually both God and Lord, so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords. The Father is made by no one, neither created nor begotten; the Son is from the Father alone, neither made nor created but begotten; the Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding. Therefore, there is one Father, not three Fathers; there is one Son, not three Sons; there is one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in the Trinity there is nothing prior or posterior, nothing greater or less, but all three persons are coeternal and coequal. So in every way, as was said above, unity must be worshiped in Trinity and Trinity in unity. He who wants to be saved must believe this about the Trinity.
To believe in those complex words of men, I will rather believe what is in the Bible:
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through …
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God …
Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/18/2012 03:11 am
SCOTT DALE AND TSNOW:
What I am saying is the so called Trinitarian belief of GOD in three distinct co-equal individuals or persons; such as the Father in Heaven, the Son on Earth, and the Holy Spirit; are all contradicting to GOD’S Holy Word.
There is ONE GOD fulfilling three prophesied POSITIONS from GOD as promised. Just ONE GOD fulfilling a Fathership position, a Sonship position and a Holy Spiritship position; not a three distinct co-equal individual or person.
So shall we say then that my Lord Jesus Christ is a trinity within himself then as well. For he is the Son of Man, the Son of GOD, and the Son of David? Do you see it is still my Lord Jesus Christ just fulfilling the three different positions at different times throughout his life. Just as GOD has done by creating for himself a Fathership position, a Sonship position, and the Holy Spiritship position.
Also, are we then a trinity as well for we as humans have a body, a soul, and a spirit. So therefore are we then all three different yet co-equal individuals?
The Godhead is very hard to grasp yet its not a unitarian position, a binitarian position, nor a trinitarian position.
For example;
GOD did create for himself a Fathership position for his chosen/the elect/the bride/the predestined on Earth. And yet GOD also created a Sonship position by impregnating a mortal woman on Earth to conceive A CHILD who would and could only be the Son of GOD and no other; 100% man and 100% GOD; so that GOD could now be our KINSMAN REDEEMER for for his chosen sons and daughters on Earth cause GOD was now in flesh as a man just as we were except he was born sinless yet we are born from sin. Also, GOD created a Holy Spiritship as a means to indwell his chosen sons and daughters on Earth.
This is the true GODHEAD chosen before the very foundations.
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/18/2012 02:06 am
Post #295, Candace: when you’re feeling better, consider the following - in post #295, you mentioned reading Hebrews in other translations: “Read the whole book of Hebrews preferably in a different translation like The Jerusalem Bible or God’s Word Translation.”
And so I wondered how Phil.2:6 is stated in other translations. Watch . . .
1]. New Living Translation (2007):
“Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”
2]. English Standard Version (2001):
“. . .who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped . . .”
3]. Aramaic Bible in Plain English (2010):
“He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God . . .”
4]. God’s Word Translation (1995):
“Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.”
5]. King James Bible (2003):
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God . . .”
6]. American Standard Version:
“. . .who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped . . .”
We can see, these 6 translations are in agreement as to INTENT. That Jesus is equal with God, that He is IS Deity - the world will not grasp this truth easily. We see this is what happened in John 1:11; 10:31-33, and certainly before the Sanhedrin in Matthew.26:57-66.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/16/2012 23:49 pm
Post #303, TIUCHE, once again . . . One Deity (God over all), manifesting in three distnct Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Any other “god” is false. There is only one.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/16/2012 18:44 pm
T.Snow. You want to limit God into three person or to make them into three, when in fact the scriptures plainly tells us there are many gods but we have only one God the Father…”For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. us” (1 Corinthian 8:5-6).
You are too concerned with the Trinity doctrine while glossing over this clear words!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/16/2012 12:12 pm
Repost 301: Being that “trinity” is simply a word that WE use in describing God, perhaps “tri-unity” would be a better word?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/16/2012 06:29 am
Post #299, 2live4GOD: Hi. “three different co-equal individuals” was never suggested. The Bible assures us - God is One Deity, manifesting in three distinct, equal Persons. That God the Father is eternal, it follows, the Son of God and the Spirit of God are the same.
“The Father is the source of authority, the Son is the channel, and the Holy Spirit is the agent whereby authority is exercized.” They are equal in nature, distinct in Person, and subordinate in duties.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/16/2012 06:22 am
If post #299 is true, then Candace and any other anti-trinitarian’s argument that Jesus would be praying to himself in John 17 would have great merit. Once again, this notion is preposterous and completely unbelievable. If the Father is not a separate person from the son, then the entire familial construct is meaningless.
As the poster suggests, one individual CAN be a father, a son and a grandfather all at the same time. I am such a one; however, the analogy is dreadfully faulty: I cannot be the father of MYSELF; nor can I be the son or grandson of MYSELF. If this is the model of the “Godhead” as poster #299 sees it, then what we have is a very disturbing three-headed hydra for a God.
This is NOT the trinitarian portrait!
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/16/2012 03:13 am
TSNOW:
It’s not three different co-equal individuals but GOD fulfilling three offices.
Such as:
GOD- in the Fathership position in Heaven
GOD- in the Sonship position on Earth veiled in a Single Man called the Kinsman Redeemer
GOD- in the Holy Spiritship position in every true predestined before the foundations Son and Daughter of GOD
Just for an example:
1. you are a father
2. you are a son
3. you are a grandfather
Three different positions; yet you are the same person; just fulfilling three offices under one roof.
So its’s not three co-equal individuals, or two co-equal individuals, nor one God and Jesus was just a man.
It’s GOD in all his glory and promises…THE PERFECT GODHEAD.
The Holy Bible is written in the same manner:
1. Old Testament- Fathership of GOD in Heaven
2. Gospels- Sonship of GOD on Earth in a Single Man
3. New Testament being Acts to Revelation- Holy Spiritship in every true predestined son and daughter of GOD
By
2live4GOD
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/16/2012 01:58 am
Dear TSnow….you win, have your 3 gods in one. I’m too ill to debate right now. Maybe another time. Much Agape:)
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/15/2012 23:28 pm
Post #295, Candace: Hebrews? The writer of Hebrews affirms the Deity of Christ. The book was written after the resurrection. Many Jews had come to believe in Jesus, that He was Messiah, He is God. The author feared these new converts might slip back into old Jewish tradition [keeping the Law], so we read of warnings such as in ch.6.
“Only the blood of a prefect, obedient human could pay for the sins of a fallen world.” There is no such thing as a “perfect, obedient human.” This idea is not even alluded to in Scripture.
Isaiah speaks of the tri-unity of God, watch . . . [ch.48]
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am He; I am the First and the Last. My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and My right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together” [vv.12-13]. Clearly, this is the God of Israel.
Now look at v.16 . . .
“Come near Me and listen to this: From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there: And now the Sovereign LORD has sent Me with His Spirit.” I quote . . .
“If God is speaking, then who are ‘the Sovereign LORD’ and ‘His Spirit’ and ‘Me’? More confusing still is the fact that the Sovereign LORD and the Holy Spirit sent the One who is called the First and the Last - the One who laid the foundation of the earth’” [publication: Israel My Glory, Mar/Apr 2012].
In Isaiah 44, God says, “This is what the LORD says–Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the First and I am the Last; apart from me there is no God” [v.6].
And in Revelation 1, John writes of Jesus, “When I saw Him I fell at His feet as though dead. Then He placed His right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever. And I hold the keys of death and hades’” [vv.17-18].
To conclude, the Bible clearly teaches the tri-unity of God, the Creator of all things. He is One Deity, manifesting in three equal, distinct Persons. It is an eternal truth.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/15/2012 07:09 am
Post #295, Candace: “GOD created ALL things THROUGH & FOR the Son. God alone created everything that was created in anticipation of His only begotten Son. Is 44:24.”
What you have stated here is solid Candace, until we reach “in anticipation of His only begotten Son.” This is unscriptural. What is it, about the Son, that God anticipated? [no sarcasm, but a genuine question]. Watch this verse . . .
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. FOR by Him all things were created . . .” [Col..1:15-16A, emphasis added].
Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God. What CAN this mean but that God made Himself visible in Jesus. And the One who created “all things” [v.16] had to exist PRIOR TO all things being created. Otherwise, it doesn’t really work.
Look, you have asked me to explain Rev.3:12. But you will hunt down a verse you believe contradicts that explanation. The same will continue on and on, indicating an uncertainty - maybe God HAS manifested Himself in three equal Persons. It’s a truth none of us fully comprehends. It is believed by faith [Mt.16:17].
One day, Candace, you will open your Bible and BAM! you will say, “Wow! I believe . . . He really is God.”
My concern here is, influence. What is it that influences the belief [that] Jesus is not “God the Son”? [co-equal, co-eternal with the Father].
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/13/2012 07:23 am
Dear TSnow. You are absolutely right in your last few posts…..GOD created ALL things THROUGH & FOR the Son. God alone created everything that was created in anticipation of His only begotten Son. Is 44:24. Even in Gen 1:27 Yahweh (HE. Himself) created all things. Not a triune of gods created but God alone.
When the Greek or the Hebrew says Jesus was “Before” this one or that, it literally means HE HAS PREEMINENCE OVER OR IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN. It doesn’t mean in his existance other than existing in the Word of God.
It seems there is difficulty understanding that Yahweh is not locked in time. I’ve said this before. He is completely outside the realm of time where everthing He has spoken by the power of His Word/Logos is already done.
You are so right “the WORD existed in the beginning before ALL things.” But the WORD was not flesh until Jesus was born to Mary.
There is no “God the Son” in any of the scriptures. Why add to the Word of God pagan doctrines that aren’t there? Every where we see the promise of Messiah (not another god), a Son born of a virgin, just like us, his brethren, TEMPTED in every way such as we are.
Read the whole book of Hebrews preferably in a different translation like The Jerusalem Bible or God’s Word Translation. See what it has to say about “the man” Christ Jesus. Our Mediator between us & God. Our High Priest, Forever for us to God. God is not tempted, He is not a mediator & He most definelty is not His own Hifh Priest. Only the blood of a prefect, obedient human could pay for the sins of a fallen world.
Jesus IS that prefect man, Last Adam & he willing laid down the life His Father Granted him. John 5:26 God can’t die.
“For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man’s offense , how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace & the gift of righteousness rule in life BECAUSE OF “ONE MAN”, JESUS CHRIST.” (INS Ro 5:17)
T, if you would, I’d really like to know how you would explain Rev 3:12 in your own words. Thanks so much.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/12/2012 21:52 pm
Post #288: How could Jesus pray those words in Jn.17:5, if He didn’t exist until the date specified? . . . He did.
- the Word existed ‘in the beginning’ > Jesus is before all things [Col.1:17]; the Universe was created through Him [Heb.1:2].
It’s late. Will get back at a later time.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/12/2012 08:13 am
Repost #291: A further point here is that, God the Son came to earth in Jesus Christ. He paid the penalty for sin on the cross, that we could spend eternity with Him and not away from Him (Jn.3:16-17). God has done it all.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/11/2012 22:26 pm
Post#288 IS I BELIEVE Charles again trying to post as T.Snow! That is just a hunch!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/11/2012 14:33 pm
Repost #288: Just a couple of other observations. In John 1 we read about the Word in vv.1-2. Now in v.3, we read . . .
“Through Him all things were made; without Him, nothing was made that has been made.”
“Through Him all things were made” - through who? In verses 1 and 2, the emphasis is on the Word, rather than God the Father. So here in v.3 it follows, John is still referring to the Word when he says, “Through Him [the Word] all things were made.” He continues, “… without Him [the Word] nothing was made that has been made.”
Now look at Col.1, where Paul writes:
“He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible; whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things and in Him all things hold together” [vv.16-17].
John told us [that] “THROUGH HIM all things were made.” And Paul says [that] “all things were created BY HIM and FOR HIM.”
We can say with a fair amount of certainty that “all things” refers to “all things” - the earth, space, stars, etc.
Turn now if you will to Genesis 1, where we read: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Stand-alone statement - God created ‘all things.’
Genesis 1 tells us it was God who created everything. But John and Paul say it was Jesus. Think for a minute . . .
John tells us, ‘the Word’ [or, ‘the same’, KJV] “was with God IN THE BEGINNING.” And Paul tells us, “He [Jesus] is BEFORE ALL THINGS and in Him all things hold together.” One other look . . . John 17. Jesus prays . . .
“And now, Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began” [v.5]. We just saw that Jesus is ‘before all things.’
What do we say in response to all this as to “who” Jesus Christ, the Son of God is?
First of all, if He exists only from His birth [A.D.4/5], then nothing Moses, John or Paul said about Him as discussed above, is true.
And second, the only way this all fits together perfectly, is that Jesus Christ IS God in physical form. He IS the Elohim of Genesis 1. He IS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He IS the God of the Bible.
“For in Christ the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” [Col.2:9].
Our response? To worship Jesus as God, because thats who He is. And He is the only One worthy of worship.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/11/2012 07:59 am
CAPS BUTTON STUCK…NEED TO GET NEW KEY BOARD
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/11/2012 04:18 am
TIUCHE:
GOD HAD NO BODY…HE IS… AND STILL… A SPIRIT FORM…YET GOD WAS MADE FLESH… IN A FORM OF MAN…NAMED JESUS CHRIST.
SO PLEASE EXPLAIN PHILLIPPIANS 2:5-6…
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6…
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God…
SO WHOSE MIND WAS IN JESUS? WHO SHALL BE IN OURS AS WELL? SO WHY ARE WE THEN CO-EQUAL WITH GOD AS WELL? JUST AS MY LORD JESUS CHRIST WAS…
ALSO…HOW CAN YOU EXPLAIN OUR THEOPHANY BODY THEN… WHICH IS A SPIRIT FORM AND IS OUR TRUE SELVES… WHICH LATER BECOMES OUR GLORIFIED BODY…NOT OUR PRESENT CARNAL FLESH OF SIN.
GOD IN A FATHERSHIP/ IN HEAVEN
GOD IN A SONSHIP/ ON EARTH
GOD IN HIS CHILDREN/ IN HIS PREDESTINED BRIDE BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS
THINK ON THAT FOR AWHILE TILL YOU RECEIVE THE TRUE REVELATION OF THIS.
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/11/2012 04:15 am
Repost #287: “And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began” (Jn.17:5).
How are Jesus’ words here justified, if He didn’t exist until A.D.4/5 ?
Post #284, Candace: Am really trying to understand here, Candace. Help me with a couple of points in Mr. Sjordal’s work, because I could be mis-reading or mis-understanding. Regarding Yeshua, he writes,
“His existence began when he was created, just as it does for all men.” This is pretty cut-n-dried: Jesus began His life at conception.
A couple or three paragraphs later he writes, “There is only one Creator. You are either the Creator or the creation; you cannot be both. Yeshua was called “the firstborn of every creature” (Col.1:15) and “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev.3:14).
Now, if Jesus Christ’s existence began when He was created [His birth being around A.D.4-5], how can He be “the firstborn of every creature” or even more, “the beginning of the creation of God”?
Looking back at Col.1, the apostle writes, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created BY HIM and for him. HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and in him all things hold together” [vv.15-17, emphasis added].
But none of this is exactly true if Christ has only been around since A.D.5.
Now turn if you will to Mt.2, where King Herod inquires of the chief priests and teachers of the law as to the location of Jesus’ birth. In their response they quote prophecy. Watch . . .
“In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, ‘for this is what the prophet has written: ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel’” [v.6].
They quoted from Micah:
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity” [5:2].
It is interesting to note that, there were at the time, two towns in Israel with the name “Bethlehem.” One was in the North, belonging to the tribe of Zebulun. The other, 6 miles SW of Jerusalem in the area belonging to Judah. “Ephrathah” is the ancient name for the town of Bethlehem. So the address is to “Bethlehem Ephrathah,” indicating the exact place of Messiah’s birth. No mistake. Again, “from eternity” here in Mic.5:2 refers to the NATURE of Messiah, who will rule Israel.
It is my firm belief, that, [the] firstborn of every creature in Col.1:15, refers not to the first thing God created, rather, it refers to Christ’s preexistence, as we saw in Col.1:17, which also parallels John 1:1-2.
To conclude, God the Father revealed Himself to the world in the body of Jesus Christ. That’s why Jesus is “from everlasting.”
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/10/2012 08:55 am
T.snow/ Candace: I agree with Candace that Jesus indeed have a beginning but I disagree with her that Jesus is not God; but again I agree with Candace that Jesus is not equal with His Father like we are not equal with the Father nor are we equal with the Son…and I agree with Candace that you (including others) try to fit a pagan doctrine into our faith while glossing over the scriptures which contradicts the TRINITY!
Almighty God the Father have a body,Mighty God the Son have a body, but the Holy spirit does not have a body…but are the Spirit of the Father and the Son…so how can the Holy spirit be a person? It is like us humans- we have our individual spirits…now how can we teach that out individual spirits have their own bodies when in fact they dwell within each of our bodies? And our spirits are not persons….they are our individual spirit housed within our individual bodies! This is very plain…disproving the TRINITY as one God in three PERSONS or is it THREE PERSONS in ONE God?
As Candace said GOD IS IN ALL IN ALL meaning ONE GOD dwelling in many person…yet we know that we in whom God dwells through His spirit is not at all CO-EQUAL with our Father nor with His Son though we are His brethren and sisters!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/10/2012 04:58 am
Sorry:( here’s the link:
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/mere-man-by-jonathan-sjrdal.html
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/9/2012 23:52 pm
T Snow. There are some basic Bible facts that just don’t seem to be understood.
They are: Jesus is the Christ or Messiah. This means he was the anointed by God. God is not anointed. He anoints.
Jesus is “the only begotten Son of God”. He has a beginning
Jesus is the Last Adam. Adam means man. Jesus is God’s salvation plan. A new creation of “Adam”.
Jesus calls himself the “son of man”. He comes from mankind but without the sin nature we are all born with because his Father is God.
Jesus is the “Lamb of God”. God is not His own sacrificial lamb. Only the blood of a human being could purchase back what the 1st Adam forfieted.
If you would be so kind to read this link, I think you will have the answer to your above questions. These brothers in Christ do an excellent job of bringing Scriptural understanding. I’ve answered all your questions before in this very blog.
http:/adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/mere-man-by-jonathan-sjrdal.html
God Bless you T & all who chose to read this
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/9/2012 23:50 pm
Post #278, Candace: No Scripture is being, nor will be thrown away. However, there is a point which has been mentioned here before, but demands attention.
In post #273 you spoke of Jesus having a beginning - He was born. If Jesus had a beginning, [then] He was created.
You know, there are a countless number of believers around the world, who pray to Jesus; they sing praise to Him; they speak of walking and talking with Jesus; glorying in His name; we see bumper stickers that read, “Real Men Love Jesus” . . . we will all bow before Him (Phil.2:9-11).
It is abundantly clear, that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is being worshiped.
Now, if Jesus had a beginning . . . He is not God. If He is not God, then all the worship offered Him on a daily basis is idolatry [Lk.4:8].
Is it really true, that all those who worship Jesus are idolatrous, and only a select few have the true Bible and are true Christians?
Am not looking for a response. It is my prayer, that you might re-think who Jesus is - that God loved us so much, that He came down here in the body of Jesus Christ, to rescue us from the penalty of sin.
Post #277, Candace: The Scriptures ARE concrete. It is the interpretation thereof that is in question. The teaching [that] Jesus is not God results from interpreting Scripture in pieces, with a disregard for the whole.
Post #273, Candace: You are right. That Messiah is to reign from David’s throne IS in the Plan of God [Ps.132:11; Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:31-33]. However, a good reading of the CONTEXT of Micah 5 [the whole chapter], clearly reveals [that] “whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting,” refers to the NATURE of the One who will occupy the throne. That the prophet here refers to anything other than the eternality of the Son of God, is simply not true.
While such words as “Trinity,” “Incarnate,” and the like, came along later in time - the truth those words describe is eternal.
Under the John 1:1 topic, you have received solid answers to all of your questions. You just don’t believe them. There is no verse in the entire Bible that teaches Jesus is not God - not in the Bibles we have nor in the original writings. On the contrary, the Bible is full, from cover to cover, of the Deity of Christ. It’s the whole story, Candace. If Jesus is not God . . . then there IS no story.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL. Do we just throw away all these scriptures so we can make a pagan doctrine fit????
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/7/2012 17:19 pm
Dearest T…..you’ve not answered any of my questions. Why is it that all of you who are standing firm on a pagan doctine refuse to address my question dealing w/ concrete scripture….Jesus was begotten, he died, He has aGod, He was raised from the dead by Yahweh. He Is Not Yahweh. He is the last Adam. He’s the 1st born of many brethren. He stil has a God in Rev 3:12. God the Father is outside of time. Everythiong that is or will will ihas already happened in the realm of God. There is no passage of time for Him. His word is eternal as is He. His word became flesh when Mary concieved of the H.S. & Jesus was born. Jesus says over & over “the Fathre is Greater” than he. The has granted him/Jesus life & that life he laid down for us. The fullness of God dwelt in Christ. God can not die. God is a Spirit. Jesus has his own seperate spirit, soul & body. Whe he died on the cross he commended his spirit into the hands of the Father. God will give him/Jesus “the throne of his father,David.” Jesus will hand over his reign back to his God & Father when all his enemies are under his feet so
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/7/2012 17:17 pm
T.Snow: Post#274 ē (w/c is address to Candace)-
Jesus have an individual SPIRITUAL BODY (w/c was a resurrected body….God the Father have an individual body too…only God the Holy spirit do not have an individual body…and we will have glorified bodies!
Here is a picture of the Father and the Holy spirit…note that the Spirit donot have a body….it is not a person!
Revelation4: verses:
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God…
8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/7/2012 13:03 pm
Post #273, Candace: Wow. Would you look at the verse with me again: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratha, though [thou] be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be Ruler in Israel; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH have been of old, from everlasting” - literally, “from the days of eternity.”
These words clearly tell us, that the future Ruler in Israel [Messiah], had no beginning.
Post #272, TIUCHE: Correct me if I am wrong . . . there is the spiritual realm, and there is the physical realm. That we have a body of flesh indicates we are in the physical realm. God, who is spirit, is in the spiritual realm. He does not have a body . . .
“God’s omnipresence is a manifestation of His immensity . . . There is no existence beyond God’s existence. One theologian implied, ‘God is to space as the sea is to fish, meaning, God is larger in His totality than space - everywhere there is God there is space, and He exists beyond space.’” (LBC, pp.116-117). Do you really believe God is limited by a body?
Apparently, you do not believe in eternal punishment, brother - a truth crystal clear in Scripture.
Dearest T….it would seem you don’t fully understand “prophecy”. You quoted Micah 5:2 which God is speaking through His prophet Micah the future event of where His Messiah will be born & the lineage he shall come through. i.e. John 7:42 “Has not scripture said, That Christ comes as a “decendant” of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?”
What has had it’s origins from ancient times is THE PLAN OF GOD. Are we not foreordained before the foundation of the world too?
In Ro 8:29 “For whom He did foreknow, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He/Christ might be the firstborn “among” many brothers.” Does this mean we pre-existed too? And how can Christ be our brother, the firstborn if he is God????
With God there is no time. His plan has been laid out before Him as a scroll. He knows/sees the END from the BEGINNING. It’s all accomplished already. That’s why the Son has always been w/ Him as are we before any of us were ever born, including Messiah.
T, do you just ignore the word of God that says Jesus was not born until the fullness of time???? Do you just throw away the scriptures that teach Jesus had a beginning & was born? Do you negate he was “begotten” & had a beginning?
You have said he/Jesus existed before his mother. How can I believe such non-scriptural nonsense? Are you saying he’s God 2 who knows everything, eternal, equal to God 1 & now he/Jesus becomes an embryo, knowing nothing & developing into a human baby to be born as all the rest of humanity? Now God 2/Jesus knows nothing & learns obedience by the things he suffered. Grows in wisdom & favor w/ God. He’s nothing more than a freak godthing developing inside Mary’s womb & not really the Only “BEGOTTEN” Son of God who had a distinct beginning as the scriptures say. Heb 1:5 This does not make sense to me.
Dear T, this is so pagan & the trinity has a long & ancient history in many pagan religions & was adopted in the 4th century by the Catholic Church. Just because thousands upon thousands upon thousands have bought this lie doesn’t make it true.
Millions upon millions believe in evolution but that does not change the fact it is an incredible lie from the pit of hell. Satan is the master of deception & the trinity doctrine he has fed to the church centuries ago is one of his most destructive lies.
I say this in honest love. I really long for you to come out of that deception.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/7/2012 07:40 am
T.Snow: I said: You went ahead from me with our discussion…so how can we order things?Let us take this discussion step by step! I asked you again WHAT IS A PERSON? IS A SPIRIT WITHOUT A BODY A PERSON?If so, What kind of person?
But instead you were thinking of the holy spirit all the time so you answered:
” Genuinely speaking, the kind [of Person] who indwells, speaks, hears, delegates, comforts, counsels . . . refer to post #212.”
So let me answer my own question: WHAT KIND OF PERSON IS A SPIRIT WITHOUT A BODY?
Remember when I asked you to define a person. I said a person is one who has a functioning body and a spirit…so what kind of person is a spirit without a body?
It is an incomplete person which cannot function without its body! For a whole person has a complete functional body and a spirit…w/out the spirit the body is dead and without a body the spirit ceases to function. Is this true only in the physical realm? NO…in the spiritual realm…even God needs a body in order to function. Jesus Christ has a body and the Heavenly Father has a body and angels have their individual bodies!While the Holy Spirit is the Spirits of the Father and the Son housed in their individual bodies and distributed to angels and believers in various quantities! The Holy Spirit is not a person!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/6/2012 12:27 pm
Post #269, Candace: The Son of God is eternal. Micah 5:2 tells us - “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratha, though be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be Ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting.”
He [The Son of God], became flesh through the virgin birth. This is what was going on in 1Jn.4. The Son of God existed long before Mary came around.
Post #258, Candace: I am not disregarding anything. The Holy Spirit is so much more than what you have shared.
In John 14, Jesus says to His disciples, “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But YOU know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you” [vv.16-17].
The Spirit was WITH THEM in Jesus. Once Jesus returned to the Father, the Spirit was then given [Jn.7:37-39] incorporating believers into the Body of Christ on earth. We are to live out the life God has called us to - this cannot be accomplished without the Holy Spirit abiding in us. That’s how God works in and through us - He comforts, guides, gives us wisdom, strength, and much more . . . through His Spirit.
To all who will…I offer this brother’s website because he brings a very clear understanding of the scriptures from a Hebraic perspective. Please don’t attack me if you don’t agree. I’m sure he offers contact info for questions.
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/preexistence.html
Much Agape!
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/6/2012 07:34 am
Post #267, TIUCHE: What kind of Person? Genuinely speaking, the kind [of Person] who indwells, speaks, hears, delegates, comforts, counsels . . . refer to post #212.
It seems you are thinking in the physical realm where all we see are bodies filled with personalities every day.
The Bible is FULL of the personality of the Holy Spirit. Every attribute/characteristic we read in Scripture attributed to the Holy Spirit, cannot be accomplished by an impersonal force.
You have mentioned “the mind of God in action.” I have never read that and would like to. Where can it be found?
T.Snow: You went ahead from me with our discussion…so how can we order things?Let us take this discussion step by step! I asked you again WHAT IS A PERSON? IS A SPIRIT WITHOUT A BODY A PERSON?If so, What kind of person?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/5/2012 12:33 pm
Post #264, TIUCHE: The Holy ‘Spirit’ is spirit. While He possesses the characteristics of personality, He is not limited by a body.
From what I gather, you are saying that, because the Holy Spirit doesn’t have a body, He is therefore not a Person, correct? Does it not follow then, a ‘person’ is not a ‘person’ without a body? A ‘body’ does not possess [any] characteristics of personality - it is rather filled with those characteristics for a short time.
A person who has died, has LEFT the body [physical realm]. Though that ‘person’ still lives, in one place or the other, the ‘body’ in which he/she was housed, is no more. Paul writes:
“Now we know that if the earthly tent WE LIVE IN is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands” [2Cor.5:1, emphasis added]. And in v.6 he says:
“Therefore, we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home IN THE BODY we are away from the Lord.” He continued in v.7, “We live by faith not by sight” [emphasis added].
Point being, that the Holy Spirit does not have a ‘body,’ is no indication He is not a Person.
The Father does not have a body - is He NOT a Person… angels are ministering spirits who can assume a body… so are they NOT Persons when not in bodies…???
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/4/2012 14:48 pm
T.Snow: Yeah we know that…but that is not what am driving at. I mean the ENTITY you define as a PERSON does it have a body or not? Please answer my question so we can finish this controversy.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/4/2012 10:40 am
Post #262, TIUCHE: This is good. The ability to think, react and emote is ‘tabernacled’ in a body of flesh. The body is not the person, as is clear in 2Cor.4:7; 5:1-4; 2Pet.1:13-14. You and I are INSIDE looking out.
Looking at a person’s body tells nothing of his/her character. Nor does it tell how he/she thinks, acts, or emotes.
T.Snow: Now we can see a little better…because we have a different interpretation of what a PERSON is! Too me a PERSON is one have a body and intellectual mind while your definition SEEMS not to require a BODY!
So… is my understanding of what you post right? That to you an entity who have the ability to think, to react and to emote is still a PERSON even though he or she or it does not have a body?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/4/2012 07:19 am
Post #257, TIUCHE: OK, I’ll bite. Three qualifications of a “person” are that a person has…
(1) a mind: ability to think and act upon their thinking
(2) a will: self-identity, and
(3) emotions: ability to react cognitively
And, we’ll add to this, the list [#212 I belive], which would be actions of a ‘person’ with these three quals.
“It should be noted that the Holy Spirit is not a Person because He does those things attributable to personality, but rather does the actions of the personality because He is a Person” [LBC, p.255].
@Candace - yes, Jesus (”My Lord (kyrios) and my God (theos)” to quote Thomas) died on Calvary for my sins, but even YOU must admit that just because the BODY dies, that does NOT mean the soul nor spirit die… unless of course you are an advocate of ’soul sleep’, but that doesn’t square with Jesus telling the thief he would be with Jesus TODAY in paradise (Luke 23:43)…
Jesus did not lose His conscience thought for three days - He was STILL upholding ALL things by with the word of His power (Heb 1:3).
And of course, the Father and the Holy Spirit did not die.
I do not read ANYWHERE is scripture where a man, exalted or not, can EVER die for the SINS of another…
I will say it again - the SECOND PERSON of the Triune God took on the ADDITIONAL nature of a man, tented Himself in human flesh and die for our sins.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life (1 John 5:20)
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/3/2012 16:13 pm
252 Dear Tactorman, you call “my God too small” & I see your God died????
My God is Yahweh Elohim. “The LORD/Yahweh, He is ONE & there is none else besides Him.” Deut 4:35 He is Almighty, Eternal, All Powerful, The Father & God of Y’shua/Jesus (Eph 1:3) & He has raised him/Jesus from the dead (Eph 1:20) & He is my eternal Heavenly Father because of the shed blood of the Lamb of God, Yahweh’s only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father. (John 1:18)
My God is Huge & he CAN NOT Die! His gift to us was His Son, Y’shua…..Yahweh’s Son gave “his” life for us that we may be saved & he bares his Father’s name….Yah is Salvation! This is the Word of God
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/3/2012 07:40 am
I would ask you T Snow….are you disregarding what the scriptures themselves call the Holy Spirit in their original languages. Hebrew is Ruach haKodesh i.e. Sacred Breath. Greek is Pneuma i.e. Breath, element of force
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/3/2012 07:13 am
T.Snow You said: Help me understand where you’re coming from, brother.
That is why I asked you to define what a person is so we may understand one another. To me a person is one who has A SPIRIT & A BODY. A spirit w/o a body is not a person to me nor a body w/o a spirit! An animal could not be a person to me despite the fact that the animal have a spirit and a body-since the spirit of an animal is dumb-it does not have the higher capacity of the spirits of humans.
The term “person” is vague-this leads to disagreement. Even Corporation are termed PERSON in human legal term. So to really ORDER the seeming confusion among us, I asked you to define how you understand what a PERSON is.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/3/2012 06:52 am
Post #250, TIUCHE: We both know what a person is, brother. As we have seen, the Holy Spirit counsels . . . He instructs . . . He creates, loves, can be grieved, rejoices . . . He can be disobeyed. These attributes and many more, as shared in post #212, can not be said of a ‘force.’ I haven’t included references here because those that apply have already been listed. Do we really need to define what a person is?
Your answer - that’s not an answer. Let me ask this a little differently: What leads you to believe the Holy Spirit is not a Person? SOMETHING told you [that] the Holy Spirit is the mind of God in action [correct me if I am wrong]. Help me understand where you’re coming from, brother.
254 Scott Dale, I do appreciate your concern & I highly value your knowledge of scripture & your gift of articulation. I do, I really do. I am not aligned w/ J Cordaro but I do appreciate much of his teaching. So few have come out of mystery Babylon & my dear, dear respected brother, that is exactly what hte catholic church is w/ all it’s perverted doctrines & pagan traditions. Almost every denomination out there is her offspring carrying her perversions of our Hebraic roots.
I appreciate that you know John C & I’m deeply sorry if he’s in all out rebellion. I agree w/ you whole heartedly…rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft & is far more dangerous than most will admit. I also try to give each & everyone of my brethren, grace! I don’t know his heart or walk in his shoes but I do know when I needed a friend who understood the ruthless attacks from so called Christians, he was there w/ a heart of love. He never put down or judged any of them. He spoke truth & always directed me back to God’s word & the love of the Father & His Son. He wasn’t angry, nor ever critical. He expressed much love & forgiveness to all who have judged him & spoke much evil concerning him. I respect that & so wish more walked in that spirit.
I know full well none of you agree w/ me & where I stand & most of you think I’m a heretic, lost & just plain deceived. Tiuche comes the closest in understanding that God is not a pagan trinity nor is it taught in any of the manuscripts. That was birthed in the 3rd & 4th centuries by Satan himself.
You, my treasured friend, will probably never come to see this truth & will continue to have pity on me for my gross error but in my heart of hearts I pray you will see……our precious, wonderful Savior is indeed the last Adam, made like us in every way & he laid his life, that the Father granted him, down willingly for our sakes that one day we too would be glorified such as he has been & that we will know The Father as intimately as he does & be seated by the Father at Y’shua’s right hand just as he is seated at the Father’s.
I love & respect you deeply Scott Dale & you are ever in my prayers. I thank God for you & appreciate the dynamic prayers of faith you have prayed for me. I cherish the wonderful, although all to brief, journey we embarked upon at 2 Thes 2:3
Forgive me every shortcoming & failure to be Christlike. Forgive me if I’ve offened any of you but always know, you, Scott Dale, are deelpy loved & appreciated.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 22:45 pm
Candace,
I echo Tractorman’s remarks. As with all social media sites, it’s very easy for all of us (including you and me) to put on a show for one another with high minded postings and patronizing rhetoric that can convince most that we are saved, seeking and serving with the love of Christ. Some of us are better at it than others. There’s absolutely no accountability except our own personal standards which may or may NOT be reflected in our postings.
In the case of John Cordaro, I know personally that he is a very “nice guy” but I also know the circumstances regarding his conversion and the subsequent path he chose. He turned his back on authority and has for nearly 30 years been trying to establish his own. Rebellion is the root of many griefs and John has harvested his share. If you stand by such a one as he, I have no doubt that you too will suffer many arrows of affliction.
The bottom line is that the fundamentals of biblical Christianity (as Tractorman said) are inviolable. Those who, through rebellion, take a stand against them will suffer the curse of resisting the grace and word of our Holy God and no amount of biblical rhetoric can assuage it. I pray that you do not harden yourself to defend the likes of Cordaro. This is not a cause that you should take up unless you have drunk from his kool-aid and are equally identified with his doctrine; but if so, then you are really just defending yourself. Please be careful.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 21:34 pm
I see a refusal for most to depart from traditions of men & come back to the pure word of God.
I don’t understand why you fight dogmatically for a catholic perverted doctrine institued in the 3re & 4th centuries. These men of God so many of you disdain & call heretics are actualy bringing you the truth. The truth of the matter is…..whoever does not believe that Jesus was born a human being , the last Adam, it is he that has another Christ. Those who teach that Jesus is God instead of the “Son of God” are in gross error. If Jesus is God than he’s another God. Yahweh is the One & ONLY Elohim. Stop reading those trinity biased bibles & adhering to a perverted gospel.
I keep reading your declarations of truth aimed at me & every time you are standing on;
extrabiblical words & phrases: “God the Son” “co-equal” “co-eternal”
“Triune” “Godhead” “eternally begotten”
pagan comcepts: trinity, incarnation
and doctrines of men: making the “word” of God a 2nd person of a pagan trinity. The Logos (mind, thoughts & purpose of God) BECAME FLESH IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME. Gal 4:4
Why won’t any of you die-hard trinitarians take a good hard look at what the scriptures really say? Every scripture I bring showing that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, the Last Adam, still a “glorified man” in heaven right now, still our mediator & high priest is ignored. Instead you bring me more catholic dogma & pagan perversion. I don’t get it????
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 21:17 pm
@ Candace - when it comes to “CLOSED FIST” (ESSENTIALS OF OUR FAITH) issues such as The Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the sufficiency of scripture, the Virgin Birth, the Atonement, Salvation by faith-alone, that Jesus is the ONLY Way and the bodily resurrection, we are going to fight tooth and nail for what we believe is biblical… and yes, we WILL (at least attempt) to ‘judge righteous judgment’ (John 7:24)…
When it comes to ‘OPEN FIST’ issues such as Eschatology, the Gifts of the Spirit, Church-governance, Bible versions, then vigorous and spirited debate is fine, but we can still consider the other a brother, if the CLOSED FIST issues are agreed upon.
Many Christians today consider GLENN BECK as a brother in Christ, even though he is an avowed MORMON… Mormons confess to a DIFFERENT GOD, a DIFFERENT JESUS and a DIFFERENT GOSPEL… Could he be saved? NOT if he trusted in the Mormon Jesus and the Mormon Gospel… if he truly trusted in the Jesus of the Bible for his salvation, then he needs to ‘come out from her’…
SACRED NAME ADVOCATES are the SAME… their Jesus is JUST a man (I do NOT worship JUST a man, no matter HOW exalted he may be - your ‘god’ is TOO SMALL)…
The STAKES are TOO HIGH to simply ‘give a pass’ to those who DENY what the BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES about the NATURE and CHARACTER of the Godhead…
Our rebuttals to your position are NOT MEANT to simply WIN AN ARGUMENT and pound the opposition into the ground, but to IMPLORE, BEG, PLEAD and WARN you to consider your position, for we believe it is a DANGEROUS position to maintain…
Yes, we ARE passionate about what we believe, and please forgive any PERSONAL attacks upon you as a person… I try to AVOID AD-HOMINEM attacks, but I will attack a person’s position, if I believe they violate scripture, and especially the ESSENTIALS…
@ADMIN - please feel free to delete this post if inappropriate…
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 18:47 pm
#246 Roland G …not “my” brother…”our” brother. He loves the Son of God as his personal Savior. He’s saved, baptized, loves God’s word & knows the Father, seeks after Him & walks in Agape.
Most of you are so very self righteous & sanctimonious & quite judgemental. I prefer ones just like John Cordaro over the many pharisees I encounter on a daily basis. I’ve received the love of the Father through him many, many times & witness a heart that longs to serve. We could all learn much from ones like him.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 17:58 pm
T.Snow Post #244: You said: “… Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as “He” [Jn.16:1-16].The point of post #212 was/is that the Holy Spirit possesses all the characteristics of ‘personhood,’ and is therefore a Person.
Why so adamant about the Holy Spirit not being a Person?”
My Answer: Because the Holy spirit is not a person!T.Snow, since even the term “person” is vague…tell me how you define a “person”? So we can be clear on this long debate!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 16:10 pm
@ AMIN - you may delete my comments, because they are NOT specific comments regarding John 1:1 (can’t wait for the NEW www site so we can DISCUSS offline instead of having over 250 posts that are mostly DEBATE)…
John Cardaro’s testimony is DOWNRIGHT FRIGHTENING
http://www.byt-yhwh.org/johnvcordaro.html
He sounds like a VERY CONFUSED man - a LEGALISTIC JUDAIZER to the core - mixing Seventh-Day Adventist and Sacred Name teachings, bringing BACK into BONDAGE those Whom Jesus has set free through his (John’s) beliefs in keeping TORAH, SABBATH and the DIETARY Laws… NONE of which were EVER imposed upon Gentiles (sans things ’strangled’ and ‘with blood’) (Acts 15 and 21). And “NO”, the 4 things prohibited were NOT just a ‘STARTER KIT’ for eventual FULL TORAH OBSERVANCE later on!
And he IS a SACRED NAME adherent denying the PRE-EXISTENCE and DEITY of JESUS and believes a person needs to be baptized in the name of “YAHSHUA” (a contraction of YAHweh and yeSHUA), which is a name that ONLY the SACRED NAME CULT uses…
http://www.yaiy.org/literature/pdf/07WhyBaptizedName.pdf
For rebuttal to the “YAHSHUA” name, read the following:
http://www.yashanet.com/library/Yeshua_or_Yahshua.htm
This YAHSHUA sounds eerily like “ANOTHER JESUS” whom Paul warned us about in 2 Corinthians 11:4 as taught by the FALSE ’super-Apostles’:
For if someone comes and proclaims ANOTHER Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a DIFFERENT spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a DIFFERENT gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough (ESV - caps mine).
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 14:25 pm
Candace (post 245)
I know this man that you refer to as a “precious brother”. I witnessed his conversion and subsequent “discipleship”. All I can say is; “run away!”
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 13:20 pm
Post #245, Candace: Did some reading on John Cordaro’s Web site. Particularly the ‘condensed’ version of his testimony. He mentioned, “The Holy Spirit and the Word convinced me that nothing happened to it and
that we should still keep it” [regarding the Sabbath], and “Once again, the Spirit and the Word convinced me that Messiah did not preexist.”
Am not even sure this is worthy of allegiance. To begin with, Mr. Cordaro doesn’t give much [applicable] Scriptural support [that I could see], for what he claims to have been convinced of. The Sabbath was given exclusively to the Jews, and no other nation [Ex.31:16-17].
That “Messiah did not preexist”? This will never be found in Scripture - in modern version[s], nor in the original writings. The Bible is crystal clear on the preexistence of the Son of God.
Mr. Cordaro says he was ‘convinced’ by the Holy Spirit [and the Word]? If the Holy Spirit ‘convinced’ him, then the Holy Spirit has a will, which is a characteristic of personality/personhood.
Denying [that] God has revealed Himself in three, distinct though equal Personalities, is based entirely on human reason.
Candace (Post #245): Your precious brother has many questions about many Bible verses he does not understand. Yet, he follows his many questions with a conclusion.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 08:07 am 
The Word of God says we can come to the full knowledge & can understand.
For those willing to learn I offer teachings from a very precious brother…
http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/Holy_Spirit.html
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/2/2012 07:21 am
TIUCHE: We can’t wrap our brain around this, bro. Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as “He” [Jn.16:1-16].
The point of post #212 was/is that the Holy Spirit possesses all the characteristics of ‘personhood,’ and is therefore a Person.
Why so adamant about the Holy Spirit not being a Person?
Roland G. Why don’t you explain to us what is kenosis? It is not good for a teacher to tell of things which he himself does not understand!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 18:28 pm
Tiuche (Post #241): My recommendation:
1. Google doctrine of Kenosis or look it up in your favorite website at Wikipedia.
2. Only a God-Person can create you as a person, a little lower than the angels with God-consciousness, like Adam and Eve.
3. You wrote “…you think that God is the Father, that God is the Son and God is the Holy spirit…but wait there is more…God is the Word or the Word was God…but you say the Word of God is Jesus Christ…but wbo is the Holy Spirit what is his/it’s personal name if he/it is a person?”
Response: Yes, everything within quotations is correct, namely:
a. God is the Father.
b. God is the Son.
c. God is the Holy Spirit
d. God is the Word.
e. The Word was God.
f. The Word of God is Jesus Christ.
g. The Holy Spirit is God.
What is its personal name of God the Holy Spirit? God the Holy Spirit only has descriptive names.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 17:52 pm
Roland G. Okay I am beyond help for what? For my spiritual dumbness? Are you sure I am beyond help or is it you?
1. What is the doctrine of Kenosis? Explain it in your own word!
2. I said dogs have personalities too but they are not persons; therefore even if the Holy spirit has a personality, that doesn’t mean it is a person!
3. I agree with you the three are God…but what makes you think that the Spirit is limited to breath?Or that it is a person? Because of the Trinity doctrine? But you miss one thing again…you think that God is the Father, that God is the Son and God is the Holy spirit…but wait there is more…God is the Word or the Word was God…but you say the Word of God is Jesus Christ…but wbo is the Holy Spirit what is his/it’s personal name if he/it is a person?
I don’t think you will answer my post word for word…you do always avoid that… right? Let us see!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 16:38 pm
Tiuche (Post #239): I think you are beyond help.
1. You did not bother to read up on the doctrine of Kenosis before responding @ Post #238. And,
2. Your reasoning @ Post #239 that God the Holy Spirit is not a person because dogs are not persons is seriously flawed.
The Holy Bible confirms God the Father is God, God the Son is God, and God the Holy Spirit is God. Believers are not baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the breath of the Father.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 16:23 pm
Roland G. Your post#235 seems to indicate you are part of the godhead since you know everything about the Godhead!
And PERSONALIITY DOES NOT MAKE A CREATURE A PERSON…EVEN DOGS HAVE PERSONALITY BUT IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM A PERSON!Just because you say the Holy spirit has a personality does it make that Spirit a PERSON!
It is you who is illogical imagine the HOLY SPIRIT to you is a PERSON within the PERSON OF GOD? Following your logic it means that your spirit is a person within the person of Roland G. Is that not foolish?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 14:56 pm
Roland G. I was not addressing you…and in what post did I say that Jesus is not omniscient? However, Jesus is indeed not omniscient….when Jesus came here on earth, was he not fully God? Yet we know only God the Father knows all things! Do not tell us that Jesus did not know some things because of His humanity when during that time He was also fully God and fully Man!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 14:44 pm
(@Post 235): And Tiuche, before your write back and post Bible verses that show Jesus was not Omniscient you may want to read up on the Doctrine of Kenosis. Only in His humanity was Jesus not omniscient. As God, Jesus was omniscient.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 14:15 pm
(Post #235): All text lines up to the left margin when posted. I had prepared three columns for each of the personalities and listed the identical Divine attributes under each to show how God is One. If each member of the Godhead did not have identical Divine attributes God could not be one God manifest in three personalities.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 14:08 pm
Tiuche (Post #234): Your logic is illogical. You wrote, “T.snow- I agree with you that God the Father is God, so is the Son and so is the Holy spirit…no problem with that. The only problem is your constant allegation that the Holy Spirit is a person!”
If God the Father is God then God the Father has a personality.
If the Son (”Son” speaks only of the Humanity of God) is God the God the Son has a personality.
If the Holy Spirit is God, then God the Holy Spirit has a personality.
All three members of the Godhead are “God” and each have their own personality. To have a personality means each is a Person.
Each member of the Godhead has identical Divine attributes. Picture this:
God the Father God the Son God the Holy Spirit
Omniscient Omniscient Omniscient
Omnipresent Omnipresent Omnipresent
Omnipotent Omnipotent Omnipotent
Sovereign Sovereign Sovereign
Eternal Life Eternal Life Eternal Life
Righteousness Righteousness Righteousness
Immutable Immutable Immutable
Love Love Love
Justice Justice Justice
Truth Truth Truth
In their Omniscience all three members of the Godhead knew every decision anyone (angelic or human creation) would every make before they were created.
Each member decided the role they would play in the salvation of humankind. God “the Father” authored the plan of salvation. He would also be a “Father” to “the Word” in His humanity after He puts on a human nature (named “Jesus” at birth). God the Holy Spirit agreed to reveal the plan of salvation to humankind. All three members of the Godhead are co-infinite, co-eternal, and co-equal. Christians often confuse the subordinate roles God the Son and God the Holy Spirit carry out and think each is inferior.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 13:58 pm
T.snow- I agree with you that God the Father is God, so is the Son and so is the Holy spirit…no problem with that. The only problem is your constant allegation that the Holy Spirit is a person!
How can the Spirit of God be a person since the Spirit of God is in the person of God? The Spirit is in the person of the Father and it is also in the person of the Son…and it is in the person (although not in its fullness but only in small quantities ) of every believers! Now can the Spirit of God be in the person of the Holy spirit? As Candace said: The Father have personal names, and the son have personal names, do the Holy spirit also have personal names like the Father and the Son?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
3/1/2012 11:49 am
Repost #232: We had discussed here, the ‘eternality’ of the Son of God, and we should mention that of the Holy Spirit as well.
In Gen.1, we have seen the name ‘Elohim’ refers to the whole counsel of God - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. We saw that the Son was present with the Father ‘in the beginning’ [Jn.1:1-2; 17:5]. But the Spirit of God was present as well: “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters” (Gen.1:1-2).
Regarding Jesus, it is interesting (mentioned in #230), that through the virgin birth, the Son of God became Jesus Christ. The Son of God is eternal, as has already been clarified. This was the point in the discussion of 1Jn.4:2-3 (the significance/importance of acknowledging Jesus has/had appeared in a body).
Recall in Mt.16:13-16, when Jesus asked His disciples, “WHO do men say I am?” (or, “WHO do men say the Son of Man is?” - emphasis added). And Peter’s reply, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Peter was acknowledging Christ’s Deity - “You are God.”
Jesus’ reply: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this [His Deity] was not revealed to you by man but by My Father in heaven” (v.17). If Jesus was/is simply a man, or even created, Peter’s confession was of little significance.
When we attempt to ‘explain’ God in three Persons, we get nowhere. It, again, is believed through faith.
Repost #230: We had discussed here, the eternality of the Son of God, that He was with God “in the beginning.” Now look if you will to Col.1, where the apostle writes:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him ALL THINGS WERE CREATED, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him; He is BEFORE ALL THINGS and in Him all things hold together” (vv.15-17).
Now turn with me to Gen.1, where we read: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (v.1).
Yes, the name “Elohim” is here used. But I believe, “Elohim” refers to the whole counsel of God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is also found in Gen.3:22 (”The LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of US, knowing good and evil . . .’”), and in 11:7 (”Come, let US go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other”). Again, the whole counsel of God, referring to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
No one can “explain” God revealing Himself in three Persons - it is believed through faith. “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.”
It should be noted also, “An unbiased study of what the Bible says about ‘Trinitarianism’ confirms one in the conviction that while the mystery of the Trinity transcends reason, it does not contradict it” (H.Lockyear, Doctrines of the Bible).
Candace (Post #228): God the Holy Spirit is called “God” (Acts 5:3, 4). So, it is OK to call the Holy Spirit “God” the Holy Spirit.
God the Father calls Jesus Christ “God” (Heb. 1:8). The fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9). It is also OK to call Jesus the Christ “God” the Son.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/28/2012 18:15 pm
Post #228, Candace: This is so very important. The exact words, “God the Father,” “God the Son” and/or “God the Holy Spirit,” together or in different passages - you are not going to find in Scripture. . . Consider a few points with me for a few minutes.
Peter’s confession, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” [Mt.16], was and is the most important confession anyone on this planet will ever make. Why?
Peter’s confession goes hand-in-hand with what we have discussed previously from 1Jn.4:2-3; “Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God . . .” Here, John is talking about people we meet/converse with on a daily basis - or see on television, or hear on a music CD, etc.
Peter’s response was exactly what Jesus was looking for. He had acknowledged who Jesus was/is - Jehovah God in bodily form.
Acknowledging this truth is important because, Jesus did not become the Son of God . . . the Son of God became Jesus Christ. Watch . . .
In John 17:5, Jesus prays, “And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.” Now we go back and look at John 1:1-2 where he writes, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God IN THE BEGINNING” [or the KJV, I believe, reads, “the same was with God in the beginning”].
Lets refer to that question from a few days ago - “What is the significance of acknowledging Jesus Christ has appeared on earth in a body?” The significance, Candace, is that He is the physical, visible manifestation of Jehovah God.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/28/2012 02:20 am
Candace (post 228),
You know those terms are not in the bible and you also know it’s a strawman argument. Could it be that you are really weakening in your position that you should make an appeal for such a “proof text” after 200+ posts discussing this topic?
I adjure you to be honest with yourself regarding all the weight of evidence that has been presented. I know you desire to be so but there is much opposition from our enemy who would absolutely love to diminish the nature of our Savior in ANY way he can and it is either the trinitarian camp that is deceived or it is your camp.
I’m trusting in the best things for you.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/27/2012 14:03 pm
I would like to see these scriptures….”God the Holy Spirit. “God the Son”. They don’t seem to be in any of the bibles I’ve ever read.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/27/2012 06:51 am
Tiuche (Post #225): Also, God the Holy Spirit is different than God the Father in personality, but not different in nature or essence.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/27/2012 04:42 am
Tiuche (Post #225): “…of course the Holy Spirit can do all these things for it is God Himself…”
The same statement could be said of Jesus Christ. For example: “…of course Jesus Christ can do all these things for it is God Himself….”
Both statements are true.
But, man thinks in the natural calling the visible a Person and the invisible not a Person.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/27/2012 04:23 am
Roland G./T Snow of course the Holy Spirit can do all these things for it is God himself like the spirit of man is the man himself! But the problem is you think that the Holy spirit is a person apart or different from God the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God within His person and which He gives through His Word to all that are willing believers to let His Spirit control their individual temples!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/26/2012 15:21 pm
Repost #223: Being that God comforts us, enlightens us, reveals truth to us, works in and through us to accomplish His will . . . how do we think He does all that?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/26/2012 08:14 am
Post #219, TIUCHE: The point regarding post #212 is, for example . . .
- Does God the Holy Spirit have individual identity? (Jn.16:13;Ac.13:2; 1Cor.6;19)
- Does God the Holy Spirit speak? (Isa.6:8-10;Mk.13:11;Ac.8:29;10:19-20; 11:12;13:2;28:25-27;1Tim.4:1;Heb.3:7;Rev.14;13;22:17)
- Does God the Holy Spirit intercede? (Rom.8:26)
- Can a person insult God the Holy Spirit? (Heb.10:29)
- Can God the Holy Spirit be grieved? (Eph.4:30)
- Can God the Holy Spirit be lied to? (Ac.5:3,4,9). . .
. . . and we can go on down the list. The single answer to all of these is, absolutely! Yes, God accomplishes all these and more - THROUGH His Holy Spirit. Just as through the body of Jesus Christ, God forgave the whole world of sin through His death and resurrection (Jn.3:16-17; Heb.10:1-18), so God abides and works in every believer through the presence of His Holy Spirit.
The ‘mind-of-God-in-action’? Why would we refer to the ‘mind-of-God-in-action’ as an “it” - as if some impersonal force? He’s STILL God, with all the characteristics of personality, as made clear in post #212.
Finally, where can I read, in Scripture, that the Holy Spirit is the mind-of-God-in-action? If it’s true, it’ll be there. Thoughts?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/26/2012 08:06 am
Candace (Post #221): Three Gods in One Person–No! One God in Three Persons–Yes!! Stay tuned.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 23:28 pm
Dear Roland…you would do well to receive the truth Tiuche has given you. It is truth. God is not 3. That is pagan. The scriptures were not writtn in “old english or latin”. If you want truth get back to God’s orignal word. Tiuche has expressed my meaning w/ clearity.
God’s name: Yahweh…I will be what I will be, seated on His Throne
Son of God: Yahshua…….Yahweh is Savior, promised the throne of his father David (LUKE 1:32)
Holy Spirit’s name: None, nor does the
“pneuma” of God have a throne; is not worshipped, spirit of truth, God “anointed” Jesus of Nazareth w/ the Holy Spirit & power…Acts 10:38
Why do so many of you insist that God’s spoken word is a person???? He spoke everything into existance, His “voice” walked w/ Adam & Eve in the garden….Gen 3:8 KJV The word “BECAME” FLESH IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME. Gal 4:4
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 19:16 pm
Tiuche (Post #219): Well, take item #5 @ Post #213 for example: God the Holy Spirit intercedes for believers (Rom. 8:26). That means the Holy Spirit is an independent being. God the Father does not intercede with Himself. I will write a few commentaries next week under relevant Scripture headings.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 16:41 pm
Roland G. Don’t we all know it that we should all go beyond the Wikipedia to truly understand the Word of God?
I don’t think you understand what I posted in #217 So that your answer is far remote with what I said. I cannot understand what you are implying with your post #218.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 15:51 pm
Tiuche (Post #217): You have to go beyond Wikipedia to understand God’s Word.
Since you say, ” … the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father…”
try substituting “God the Holy Spirit” instead of “breath” for each of the items listed at Post #212.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 14:28 pm
T.Snow/ Candace/ Roland G.
The Holy Spirit is Ruach haKodesh…SACRED BREATH OF GOD or SACRED LIFE OF GOD OR SACRED THOUGHTS OF GOD -IT IS his holy thoughts in motion!
TO THE JEWS WHO KNOWS THEIR GOD AND SAVLVATION IS OF THEM- THE HOLY SPIRIT REFERS TO THE SPIRIT OF YAHWEH” The Hebrew language phrase ruach ha-kodesh (Hebrew: רוח הקודש, “holy spirit” also transliterated ruah ha-qodesh) is a term used in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and Jewish writings to refer to the Spirit of YHVH. (The expression in Hebrew is: יהוה .קָדְשְׁך) The Hebrew term ruakh kodeshka (רוּחַ קָדְשְׁךָ, “thy holy spirit”), without the definite article, also occurs. The “Holy Spirit” in Judaism generally refers to the divine aspect of prophecy and wisdom. It also refers to the divine force, quality, and influence of the Most High God, over the universe or over his creatures, in given contexts”(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Judaism) )…
while to CHRISTENDOM : For the majority of Christians, the Holy Spirit (prior English language usage: the Holy Ghost from Old English gast, “spirit”) is the third person of the Holy Trinity—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and is Almighty God.[1][2][3] The Holy Spirit is seen by mainstream Christians as one person of the Triune God, who revealed his holy name YHWH (”I am who I am”) to his people Israel, sent his eternally only-begotten Son Jesus to save them, and sent the Holy Spirit to sanctify and give life to his Church.[4][5][6] The Triune God manifests as three persons (Greek hypostases),[7] sharing one divine essence (Greek: ousia),[8], together called the Godhead (from Old English: Godhood).[9]
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Christianity) ).
Now between the two beliefs who do you think knows their God more? It is up for us to choose!
And to answer Roland G post #211:
The literal breathe you think that Candace meant would not do all those things you asked to be answered;But Candace was not talking about the literal breathe of God,you misinterpreted her post. The Holy spirit as the Spirit of God in Him do all of those things. The mind of God is simply the Holy spirit like the mind of man is his spirit.
As I have already asked T Snow, does the Holy spirit have a Spirit? No, it could not have a spirit since the Holy spirit is the Spirit of God the Father which He have also imparted fully to His son Jesus and which He also have been imparting to all the believers! The Holy Spirit is not a person…it is the Mind of God in Action!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 10:54 am
T.Snow (Post #214): Great observations! The point of it all was to show that God the Holy Spirit is indeed a separate Person.
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 09:42 am
Repost #214: in post 212, points 27 & 42, the will of the Spirit had already been mentioned.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 08:05 am
Repost #213; in post 212, Rom.8:11 is mentioned regarding the Spirit raising the dead. In the verses just prior, we read… “You however are not of the realm of the flesh, but of the realm of the Spirit, if the SPIRIT OF GOD lives in you. And if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin. But your spirit is alive because of righteousness.”
Spirit of God / Spirit of Christ - He is One and the same. Jesus abides in us (believers) through the presence of His (Holy) Spirit.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 07:42 am
Post #212: Well posted, Roland G. Would like to add if I may, that the Holy Spirit works (1Cor.12:11). Here, if the Spirit “determines,” then He has a will. Another characteristic of personality.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 06:47 am
Candace (Post #211): A few questions:
1. Does breath have individual identity? (John 16:13; Acts 13:2; 1 Cor.
6:19)
2. Does breath speak? (Isa. 6:8-10; Mark 13:11; Acts 8:29; 10:19, 20;
11:12;13:2; 28:25-27; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb. 3:7; Rev. 14:13; 22:17)
3. Does breath love? (Rom. 15:30)
4. Does breath help another person? (John 14:16)
5. Does breath intercede? (Rom. 8:26)
6. Can a person insult breath? (Heb. 10:29)
7. Can a person grieve breath? (Eph. 4:30)
8. Can a person quench another’s breath? (1 Thess. 5:19)
9. Can a person blaspheme breath? (Matt. 12:31)
10. Can a person lie to breath? (Acts 5:3, 4, 9)
11. Can a person be guided by breath? (Luke 4:1; John 16:13, 14; Gal. 5:18;
Rom. 8:9)
12. Can a person resist another’s breath? (Acts 7:51)
13. Does breath baptize? (John 1:23, 24; 1 Cor. 12:13, 14)
14. Does breath interpret (1 Cor. 2:1, 14)
15. Does breath cause pregnancy? (Matt. 1:18, 20)
16. Does breath resurrect the dead? (Rom. 8:11)
17. Does breath empower? (Judges 3:10; 6:34; 14:6, 19)
18. Does breath inspire? (Isaiah 59:21; Eph. 6:18)
19. Does breath have authority? John 14:16, 17)
20. Does breath live? (Gal. 4:6; 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:15, 17)
21. Does breath comfort? (John 14:18)
22. Does breath convince? (John 16:8, 9)
23. Does breath bear witness? (Rom. 8:16)
24. Does breath anoint? (1 John 2:20, 27)
25. Does breath serve as another’s companion? (John 14:17; 2 Cor. 13:14)
26. Does breath abide? (John 14:17; Hag. 2:5)
27. Does breath have a will? (Acts 8:29)
28. Does breath search the hearts of man? (1 Cor. 2:10)
29. Does breath have a mind? (Rom. 8:27)
30. Does breath think? (Acts 15:25, 28)
31. Is breath ever referred to as “Him” (John 16:17)
32. Does breath hear? (John 16:13)
33. Does breath give counsel? (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7)
34. Does breath remind? (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7)
35. Does breath seal? (1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 2 Tim. 1:14)
36. Does breath receive and glorify? (John 16:13-15)
37. Can a person sin against breath? (Matt. 12:22-33; Mark 3:22-30; Luke
12:12)
38. Does breath teach? (Luke 12:12; John 14:26; 16:14, 15; 1 Cor. 2:13)
39. Does breath testify? (John 15:26)
40. Does breath have a temple? (1 Cor. 6:19)
41. Does breath sanctify? (1 Thess. 5:23)
42. Does breath give gifts? (1 Cor. 12:11)
As you can see, Ruwach has other meanings other than “breath.”
The meaning of Ruwach includes “…the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power as endowing men with various gifts as energy of life as manifest in the Shekinah glory never referred to as a depersonalised force.”
Source:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=ruwach&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+HEB&ps=10&s=References
By
Roland G
(wrote 1651 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/25/2012 00:30 am
The Holy Spirit in Hebrew is Ruach haKodesh. This means: Sacred Breath of God. It’s poured out , rained down, infills etc. How is that a person????
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/24/2012 15:30 pm
T.Snow Post#206: As the Father, Son and humanS have their individual spirit, DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT HAVE A SPIRIT?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/24/2012 10:53 am
Post #205, Candace: Bit of information there. However, it doesn’t really satisfy post #204. Look with me one more time if you will, at 1Jn.4, as if the apostle is speaking to you personally, because he is.
“This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God, Candace: Every spirit [you encounter] that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. But every spirit [you encounter] who does NOT acknowledge Jesus [has come in the flesh] is NOT from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world” [vv.2-3, emphasis mine].
The inference here Candace is, Jesus Christ was not “in the flesh” [bodily form]; He was spirit. So, that Jesus has appeared bodily must be important, because those who teach He hasn’t … are false - and that’s serious.
So again, why is it important that we acknowledge Jesus has appeared in a body? Why is this even an issue?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/24/2012 09:47 am
Post #201, TIUCHE: Accept my apology for the delay. You mentioned the Bible tells us the Spirit does not have a body? This only stands to reason. He IS spirit. God is spirit. Each of us has a spirit. So does God. His title, “Holy” Spirit ought to tell us SOMETHING about Him.
The Holy Spirit is a Person, with all the characteristics of personality. A “body” is not the personality - for “personality” is only “housed” within the/a body, or “tent” (2Pet.1:13).
The Holy Spirit has a heart. Paul speaks of the “love of the Spirit” in Rom.15:30. He can be grieved (Eph.4:30). He has a will (1Cor.12:11). Further, we read of the Spirit of wisdom, of understanding, of counsel, of knowledge, and of comfort. These are not [the] attributes of a ‘force,’ or an ‘it,” but of a Person.
The Holy Spirit shares the attributes of the Father and the Son. First of all… He is Eternal (Heb.9:14). ‘Eternal’ means without beginning or end, and therefore, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Holy Spirit is OMNIPRESENT. He is “everywhere present.” He indwells all believers everywhere. David said, “Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit?” (Ps.139:10).
The Holy Spirit is OMNISCIENT. “There is nothing in and about God that the Spirit cannot know” (Dr.H.Lockyear). “The Spirit searcheth all things, even the deep things of God” (1Cor.2:10-11).
The Holy Spirit is OMNIPOTENT. The Arm, Hand & Finger are titles descriptive of the Spirit’s unlimited power. Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God (Mt.12:28; cf. Rom.15:13). Further, God, through His Holy Spirit formed the [phys] body of Jesus in Mary’s womb (Lk.1:35 > a masterpiece of the Spirit).
The Holy Spirit is God. How can the Holy Spirit [and/or Jesus Christ for that matter], possess all the attributes of God… and not be God?
Jesus Christ is without sin. Only God is without sin. The Holy Spirit is Holy. Only God is Holy. All Three are Eternal. They are from Everlasting to Everlasting. This is true only of God. He gives His attributes to no other, especially a created being. Thoughts?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/24/2012 09:06 am
Posts #205 & 206, Candace: Thank You for the post and link. Would like to repost #204. I’ll repost applicable verses here for reference.
Look back with me if you will to John 1, where we read,
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God [or, ‘the same was’] in the beginning” [vv.1-2].
Now, “the Word” here has been interpreted in this forum to refer to 1) the spoken Word of God [correct?], and 2) Jesus Christ.
It is clear in 1:14 [that] the Word, which was in the beginning; was with God; and was God, became flesh and dwelt among us [mankind]. We will note here, that “became flesh” refers to being in [physical] bodily form.
Looking now at 1Jn.4:2-3, it is clear in this context as well, that “in the flesh” refers to being in the [physical] body. The apostle writes…
“This how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God…”
Now we saw back in John 1, that the Word, which again, was in the beginning, was with God and was God - became flesh and dwelt among us [came to earth].
Let me now ask again [from #204]… “What is the significance of acknowledging Jesus Christ has appeared on earth in a physical body?”
Considering what has here been said, are you able to see the connection? “For in Christ the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” [Col.2:9].
Jesus Christ is Eternal. The attributes of God are attributed to Him: Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence. God made Himself visible to the world in the body of Jesus Christ. This truth is not new; it existed long before Constantine. It did not originate with Catholicism.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/21/2012 04:13 am
http://www.seekwhatistruth.com/studies/is-yahshua-the-son-of-god-or-is-he-not
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/20/2012 21:19 pm
Dear TSnow. I appreciate your questions & williness to understand my stand.
1st let me deal w/ “false teachers” …one example is I Jn 4:1, a warning to the new church now that gentiles w/ their pagan ways were being saved & brought in among the Jews not knowing the Torah & the Feasts of the Lord etc. Already false teachings were being introduced & by inspiration of the H.S. the warning came that satan was already trying to prevert the pure word of God & leading the church astray. Satan succeeded when Constantine called the Nicean Counsel to convene. His state religion complete w/ the 1st steps to the introuction of the triune god into Chritianity, was the prototype of the Catholic Church. THIS IS THE FALSE TEACHINGS spoken of in the scriptures. A total perversion of God’s Word & Jesus’ teachings.
How do I interpret I Jn 4:3? By believing Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin the Last Adam. Adam means “man”. He’s the promised seed to Abraham & he’s from the lineage of David. Made like us his brethren, a little lower than the angels (Heb 2:9) tempted, prayed, became weary, thingS he didn’t know but only the Father, LEARNED BY THE THINGS HE SUFFERED, could do nothing accept the Father showed him etc. Scriptures say, Jesus could do NO miracles in Nazareth. He said …”the Father that DWELLS in me, He does the works.” Jn 13:10 THE FULLNES OF GOD was in Christ/anointed one, reconciling the world to Himself/God. 2 Cor 5:19
I beleive if we don’t believe that Jesus was a human being just like us than we have a false Christ. He differs in that His Father IS God & he was born w/out our fallen nature, a recreation of the 1st Adam just like the scriptures say. I believe the scriptures when thay say there is only ONE GOD, the Father & His FULLNESS was PLEASED TO DWELL in Christ Jesus.
I believe that AN ALMIGHTY & ETERNAL GOD CAN NOT DIE! Jesus died & it pleased YAHWEH to bruise him for our sakes…Isaiah 53:10. I believe the Father raised Jesus from the dead & seated him on His right hand of authority, gave him HIS/Yahweh authority, power & glory just like the scriptures say. And Jesus in turn gave that same authority, glory & power to us, HIS CHURCH to the SAME miracles, signs & wonders!
Dearest T, anything more you’d like to know, David Smith has explained beautifully. So much better than I ever could.
http:/www.seekwhatistruth.com/studies/is-yahshua-the-son-of-god-or-is-he-not
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/20/2012 06:31 am
Post #202, Candace: Would you share with me how you interpret 1Jn.4:3? What ddoes the apostle want his readers to know about recognizing false teachers?
And would you share further, what “Jesus Christ has come in the flesh” means to you.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/19/2012 08:05 am
Post #201, TIUCHE: Will get back with you in a few minutes.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/19/2012 07:48 am
Dear Sweet Tiunche…Thank you! Thank you! You have made my heart sing today:) For that I am grateful & I can concur. Y’shua is the last Adam “a god” having authority form his Father & our Father God Almighty! The trinity is a man made doctrine brought into Y’shua’s church by the institution of the Catholic Church. We’ve been crawling out from under that false doctrine ever since the 4th century.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/19/2012 06:03 am
Candace/T. Snow: I think that T.Snow have a very strong point in his post #200.
Candace you believe that Jesus is a god (or as a God for them) I think that won’t be too hard for you to accept. Jesus indeed is MIGHTY God the son- the very image of His God who is also ALMIGHTY GOD the Father!
Thomas the Apostle in John 20:28 calls Jesus “My Lord and My God”
Our Lord Jesus in John 20:17 said: I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
T. Snow, However though you are right in your post #200 the difficulty again is your belief that God is the TRINITY-the man made TRINITY doctrine which assert that there are THREE PERSON in one Godhead.
How can there be 3 person in one Godhead when the scriptures tells us that God is the HEAD of Christ?
1 Corinthian 11:3 “… God is the head of Christ.”
How can there be 3 person in the Trinity when the scriptures tell us plainly that the Spirit does not have a body and thus it cannot be a person?
Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me …
bible.cc/luke/24-39.htmFor a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.
Instead our bodies and the bodies of our Father and our Lord Jesus is the temple upon which the Holy Spirit dwells.
When one group could not abandon their reverence and belief for a man made doctrine which go against the scriptures,that results in disunity in the body of Christ. If we stick with the Holy scriptures pure and simple then we be more united in Christ our head!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/19/2012 01:59 am
Post #199, … The point here, Candace, is that we [all] are to acknowledge that, God made Himself visible to the world in the body of Jesus Christ. And, that any spirit [anyone] who DOES NOT acknolwedge this truth, is not from God.
If Jesus is just a man, then to acknowledge he had come in the flesh is no news flash - near pointless.
But if He [Jesus] is God in bodily form [flesh], now that’s exciting news! and certainly worthy of our praise, to say the least.
And so, what John is talking about is, be careful of any one who denies the truth that God appeared to us in Jesus Christ. Because there are many out there who want the world to believe Jesus Christ is just a man [not God]. This is simply not true.
Finally, God coming to earth in Jesus is the foundation of the Gospel, Candace. If it isn’t true, there IS no Gospel. This truth existed long before ANY-thing else did.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/19/2012 00:34 am
Dear T, I don’t follow your logic at all. You said…if he came as a human Jesus must have been spirit before he came. You came as a man, I came as flesh. Does that mean we were pre-existing as a spirit??? I think we all exist in the mind , heart & plan of God but it doesn’t make us pre-existant. WE are predestined from before the foundation of the workd….Ro 8:29 “for those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the inage of His Son, so he would be firstborn among many brethren.” NAS With your logic we too pre-existed.
Dearest T….I DO know who my Savior is & I DO Know Who Yahweh/God above all gods is.
The sad thing for those who have believed the lie handed down from the Catholic Church & it’s pagan doctrines, they have a false Christ. The scriptures are clear, cyrstal even……..I Jn 2:22 “who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the (Christ) He is anticharist that denies the Father and the Son.”
I fear most do not really understand what “Christ” or “Messiah” means. If we understand that we would never call Yeshua/Jesus God.
I pray w/ all my heart that anyone that really wants to understand this will read all the studies from David Smith “Seek what is Truth”. He really has said it far better than I ever could. He’s given all the scriptures needed, the Hebrew understanding & church history. http:/www.seekwhatistruth.com/is-yahshua-the-son-of-god-or-is-he-not
Do you know that the triune god concept wasn’t even taught until Constantine in 325 AD & wasn’t completed to it’s present teaching until the late 5th century….Athanasius Creed was formulated to include the H.S. as the 3rd person of the triune god. The early church never taught this.
More Agape than you know, T
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/18/2012 07:38 am
Post #194, Candace… regarding 1Jn.4:3 - if Jesus Christ came as a “human,” [or some versions, “in the flesh”], it is clear that, at some point He was not human/in a body of flesh. Thus, God is spirit. He, again, made Himself visible to the world in the body of Jesus Christ.
Certainly, it is wonderful you believe WHAT Jesus is [Lamb of God, Son of God, Son of Man, the Christ, our Mediator, our High Priest, our Advocate]. You just don’t believe WHO He is. And this is where the concern lies.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 21:40 pm
If anyone out there is interested why I stand as I do this link says it so clear.
http://www.seekwhatistruth.com/studies/is-yahshua-the-son-of-god-or-is-he-not
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 07:12 am
post 191 so sorry, didn’t mean for that to leave yet.
God’s Word translation I Jn 4:3 reads….”But every person that doesn’t delcalre that Jesus Christ has come as a human has a spirit that isn’t from God. This is the spirit of antichrist that you heard is coming. That spirit is already in the world.”
I don’t follow your logic about this proves “that Jesus is a spirit, God is a spirit”???? What that proves to me is Jesus is the Son of God the Son of man, born, died & was resurrected. Made like unto his brethren, suffered was tempted etc. God is not tempted.
I’m so sorry but you all are very confusing. The Scriptures are quite clear.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 07:07 am
post 191 T Snow how about reading that from the God;s Word translation….”
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 06:59 am
Jn 20:31 “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in his name.”
Jesus never calls himself God the Son, rather he refers to himself as the Son of Man more than anything. He praised Peter when he said…thou art the Christ (anointed one) the Son of God. The Christ means the promised Messiah which means anointed one.
I believe Jesus is exactly who he says he is….The Lamb of God, the Son of God, the Son of man, The Christ, our Mediator, our High Priest our Advocate.
To make him God breaks God’s types. Too many are interpreting the scriptures through the Latin Vulgate. We see a different picture when seeing them through the Hebrew & Greek they were written in.
God Bless too fatigued to continue.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 06:55 am
post 189 T Snow, forgive me, I meant to include this very important scripturel John 20:16 ………that you may believe that Jesus is the Son of God
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 06:45 am
Repost #191: little more time… even if we DO read [1Jn.4:3], “..but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God..”
Here again, what is it about Jesus that is to be acknowledged? [that’s a question].
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 01:43 am
Post #190, Candace: what is referred to in #189 is, if Jesus is only a man, then His death & resurrection were powerless to redeem sinners.
Regarding 1Jn.4:3… from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English [2010]:
“And no spirit that does not confess that Yeshua has come in the flesh is from God, but this is from that false messiah, him whom you have heard that he will come, and already he is in the world.”
Some versions read “..does not acknowledge Jesus..” - so what is it we are to acknowledge about Jesus? - that He came in the flesh. And what does THAT tells us? - it tells us He [Jesus] is spirit - God is spirit.
Gotta go.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 01:37 am
Dearest T….the scriptures DO NoT say “if we don’t accept that Jesus is “God” we aren’t saved”. They say:……anyone who does not believe that Yeshua came as a human being is antichrist.” I Jn 4:3 CJB
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 00:17 am
Post #188, Candace: from my heart-of-hearts, at this point in your faith, Candace, you have not been able to grasp who Jesus is.
If He [Jesus] is not [fully] God…[then] there is no salvation - we Christians are still in sin.
Jesus said if you don’t believe I am who I say I am [God], you will die in your sin [see Jn.8:23-24].
That God became a man is solid Bible teaching, Candace. It is serious. It’s my prayer you will seek it out.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/17/2012 00:05 am
post 185 Dear T. My number one objection to the trinity doctrine is this:
If Jesus is God than God died. And if Jesus is God than he’s his own father??? Can the Father be the Son???? Did God leave heaven to become a “man” leaving us w/out God for 33 yrs???? Impossible. Did Jesus pray to himself??? Did he raise himself from the dead???
Trinity Doctrine Stated:
The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God yet not 3 gods but One God. All are co-eternal, co-equal, omnicient, omnipresent& all powerfull.
I see a problem w/ this immediately. Jesus was born of a woman, the seed of Abraham, son of David, made like us in every way, an heir, a high priest, an advocate, a mediator between God & men, the “Firstborn” of many brethren, glorified by God, HE DIED & would still be dead if God had not raised him. There are things Jesus does not know, only the Fathers knows. Jesus grew in favor w/ God. He learned obedience by the things he suffered. Jesus was not or is not co-equal, co-eternal etc. He’s still not God in heaven. Rev 3:12 God/Yahweh only is eternal, omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He gives immortality. He GAVE Jesus all authority, His name, His glory etc.
2nd problem I have w/ the trinity: The Holy Spirit has no name, has no throne is never greeted in any of the Epistles. It’s poured out, rains down, is fire, is oil, is a promise, does not speak for himself (Jn16:13) etc. And if the H.S. is God then Jesus does not know Who his Father is….the H.S. overshadowed Mary, not God the Father. That would make the H.S. Jesus’ Father.
3rd problem I have: the pagan trinities go back as far as Nimrod & Babylon. There are hundreds of pagan trinities throughout ancient history. God called Abraham out from his father’s house in the land of Er where he made idols to sell w/ his father (probably triune gods) because God wanted a “MONOTHEISTIC” people that He would call His Own!. Scripture is blatantly clear….”GOD IS ONE & THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES YAHWEH”!
God’s Name is YAHWEH. It means Yah Sanctifies,Yah my Shepherd; Yah Who is Present; Yah our Healer; Yah our Righteousness; Yah will provide; Yah our Banner; Yah our Peace; Yah of host etc. Jesus’ name is only ONE attribute of Yahweh….Yah is Salvation = Yahshua. Jesus was born to declare Who the Father is. He is the “image” of an invisible God! The fulllness of God dwelt in him/Jesus! We don’t need one God dwelling in another God. All we need is Yehweh, the Mighty Elohim dwelling in His only begotten Son! Jesus/Yahshua made the Father known to us. He manifested the invisible God by being God’s very Word made “Flesh”! God’s mind & thoughts became Jesus in the fulness of time & the Word walked among us in the form of the man Christ Jesus..
The promise to us is we’ll become just like the Son…glorified & joint heirs, ruling & reigning w/ him in the Kingdom His Father has given him! (Luke 1:32)…”he shall be great & he shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his “father” David.”!!!!
The doctrine of trinity comes from the perversion of the gentiles who were saved & brought their pagan ways w/ them not long after Y’ahua was resurrected. Hence the warnings from the early Apostles of those who would pervert the scriptures. It didn’t take long before the councel of Nicea & the Catholic Chruch was born w/ it’s rituals & pagan traditions were mixed w/ the pure word of God.. The trinity as we know it today comes directly from that paganized institution. Isn’t is time to “Come Out of Babylon”?
please, if you have time, read all of David’s teaching:
http://www.seekwhatistruth.com/studies/is-yahshua-the-son-of-god-or-is-he-not
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/16/2012 22:02 pm
Post #186, Candace: Jesus being God, meaning, God made Himself visible to the world in the body of Jesus Christ. Why is THAT not true?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/16/2012 07:55 am
Hi T! I would love to answer you as soon as I am able:)
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/16/2012 06:14 am
Post #180 [I think], Candace: Could I ask you a question regarding the whole…God-in-three-Persons topic? >
Yes, I have read over David Smith’s Web site. The reason for this post, is not to be a jerkwad, but to learn what your thinking is on this topic, if you wouldn’t mind. So let me ask …
Why is it NOT true? Why is Jesus NOT God? The most obvious reason I think, might be that, ‘God [the Creator] would never lower Himself with those He had created’ >> or something to that effect. This is a great misconception about God.
In 1 Jn., he says not to believe everyone who says they speak from God, but [to] test each spirit to see if they are from God. And there are a few tests we can use to do just that. But John says the greatest test, is whether or not the spirit acknowledges Jesus being fully God AND fully man - is Jesus God in phys form?
Do we believe it?? I certainly invite your thoughts. T.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/15/2012 01:42 am
I would like to comment on your last post when I am feeling stronger…hopefully soon. In the meantime……….be Blessed
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/13/2012 23:54 pm
Candace - oops - I failed to provide the video link on the Trinity - Sessions 7 and 8 are probably of prime interest.
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org
Under ‘what we do’, click on the Theology Program, then you will see video links on Trinitarianism…
You bring up a good question into what ‘name’ we baptize?
Well, if we look at Matt 28:19, we are given a pattern by which to baptize… into the NAME (singular) of THE Father AND of THE Son AND of THE Holy Spirit… so your question in previous posts is indeed interesting, because by WHICH name then do we baptize - Yahweh, Yeshua (I don’t believe you’ll find YAHSHUA in scripture - it appears to be a contraction of YAHweh and yeSHUA) or HaKodesh?
We DO see in Acts that folks were baptized into the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38 and 19:5), so of course I would have no issue with that…
I think MOST fundamentalist/evangelical types don’t see Matt 28:19 so much as designating a Proper Name as much as the idea of baptizing them in the AUTHORITY of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit…
Regarding the word ‘name’, from the folks at blueletterbible.org:
“the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one’s rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.”
Thank you so much though for your comments on ‘Hebrew Roots’ - I have much to say on them but that will be when I post notes on Acts, Galatians, Colossians, and Hebrews…
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/13/2012 22:11 pm
Thank you, Tractorman….I do appreciate your input. I too find it very grieving how many insist we go back under the law when Y’shua has fulfilled the law & given us a “better” covenant. Those finding their Hebraic roots seem to have fallen into another ditch.
I would ask you…what “name” do you baptize in????
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/13/2012 06:31 am
Hi Candace - no sense re-inventing the wheel, but an orthodox definition of the Trinity would be:
We believe in one and only one God eternally existing in three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), all fully God and all fully equal.
For a sort of ‘apologetic’ on the Trinity, please read the following:
http://bible.org/article/trinity-triunity-god
I would also highly recommend the following video links on the Trinity (esp episodes 7 & 
I did read David’s article you posted, and he certainly sounds a part of the ’sacred name movement’ (just google it)
But some of the most disconcerting things David wrote under http://www.seekwhatistruth.com/about are his comments about observing Sabbath and holy feasts (not to mention baptizing ONLY in Jesus’ name). My radar goes up on ANYBODY getting the New Testament Adult-son marching in the WRONG direction back to Sinai, back under the bondage of the rotting and decaying elements of the Law, which the writer of Hebrews states is even now fading away (Heb 8:13). But that is a subject for another verse…
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/12/2012 20:24 pm
I would love to read anyone’s explaination of the Triniy, especially Scott Dale or Tractorman.
Here’s part 5 of 6 of some very concise teaching on the very things we’ve been discussing. Hope someone will take the time to read it.
http://www.seekwhatistruth.com/studies/is-yahshua-the-son-of-god-or-is-he-not/part-v
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/11/2012 19:44 pm
Post #163, Candace: Looking once again at Col.2:9, w/in the context of these words, what the apostle is telling his readers is, “If anyone is teaching Jesus Christ IS NOT God in bodily form, don’t listen to them - don’t be led astray by that teaching.”
And why does Jesus have a God? God came here to show us we are
dependent on God.
You are being lifted to the throne of grace by many.
T Snow (#176)
Thanks for the affirmating words.
It is very curious how we can all discuss the deepest things of God with such conviction and then something as trite as a particular word not appearing in the Bible becomes a source of contention. Undoubtedly, the whole notion of the Creator God becoming a man is a difficult one for the creature to deal with. Who can fully grasp it? How shall the finite comprehend the infinite? But if the All Powerful Creator wanted to become a man, who can deny Him? And if He DID become a man, what would that man be like?? A mighty King constantly displaying His miraculous powers to heal and to judge?? Is this how we shall be able to comprehend Him?
Yes, that is EXACTLY what He would be like.., Jesus is the healer AND the judge. Woe to us if we forget that. Surely we’ve come to know Him as the compassionate Healer of brokeness and infirmity; but soon we shall also know Him as the terrifying Judge of all the earth!
Jesus is no mere man who has a sinless life of which to boast before God. I declare that I will have NO mere man to be my savior and I also declare that I will stand before NO exalted mortal for the judgment of my soul! If I cannot stand before my Creator and Sustainer in That Day; then let me be as if I had NEVER been born!
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/3/2012 14:46 pm
Candace…Sweet one…we pray for you…and I wish every modern woman was just like you…like the Holy women of old-a woman who loves her husband and the Lord loyally and faithfully….no, i am not saying you are perfect in doctrine or in your deeds or in your words, what I am saying is I see a woman whose heart is in LOVE with Christ & Hus Word-and that is encouraging.
May the Lord our God smile down on all of us here and grant our wishes and prayers!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/3/2012 12:31 pm
Post #172, Scott Dale: Thank You for these words. I think ‘Trinity’ is a word we use to describe the ‘triune’ God - that He exists in three Persons. The word ‘Rapture’ isn’t in Scripture either. But we use this word referring to being “caught up” to meet Jesus “in the air” [1Thess.4:16-18].
Thanks, again.
I’m so sorry, anothr post that left my hands before I could correct it……….just too much fatigue
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/2/2012 18:46 pm
#170 My dearest & most precious Friend,
thishas beenan amazing hourney w/ you. Definetely some iron sharpening iron, freedom for the release of passion & an extraordinary opportunity for unpretencious vulnerablility.
You have challenged like few ever have. You have comforted in th most diffcult times. I have felt the heart of Gather through your word so beautifully articulated & I have been motivated to excavate the depths of God’s incredible & unfailing Word.
I been chastized to the point of tears but it has caused me to go to my Father to learn more of His unfathonable Agape & “really” walk in it.
I have developed a deep & abiding love for you that will endure into eternity. A respect for a man of God that walks in the truth he knows w/ a strenght of character that is indeed “a living epsitle easily read of all men.” I am honored. I have cherished the incredible words of comfort that flow from a pure heart…one that has travailed as well & has seen God in the midst.
A am not doing well. The flare I enteered into about 6 months ago is not abating. I may not be able t correspond w/ any of you for how long, I so not know. That saddens me for I have had an opportunity to open the floodgates of my heart & it’s been exhilirating! I have also had the extreme [leaseure of getting to “know” you by the Spirit & that has been most satisfying.
I covet you prayers as this is a burden at times, I just can’t carry. I detest it & ache w/ every fiber of my being to be released. But……………if not, I need to come to terms w/ a most dilbiltating infimity w/out cursing God only t lay down & die.
Much Agape “………….Behold, how good & pleasant it is for brethren to dwell in unity.”
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/2/2012 18:44 pm
post 171 Tiuche, I want to than kou for your tender heart before the LORD & how blessed I have beem to read your exhortations & input. Your words bring truth & comfort to me & to that I must put an Amen.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/2/2012 18:24 pm
Tiuche (post 171)
I think we all appreciate the sentiment that you are appealing to with your reminder, but the Word of God is NOT simple. What seems to add un-needed confusion is the apparent disdain by some for the mere word “trinity”. What does it matter that the word does not appear in the Bible? The real question is; can the DOCTRINE of the Trinity be substantiated in the Bible?
However, neither Tractorman nor I are pushing the fullness of this doctrine (I don’t think we’ve even mentioned the word unless somebody else brings it up first). The core issue that centers on our theme verse above is whether or not Jesus is God (in fullness). I hope you would agree that this is neither a simple issue nor one of little consequence. To be wrong on this point has critical ramifications. In some cases, it can be the difference of being eternally saved or lost.
Certainly, there is disagreement on these things but the spirit of our banter has been right and light IS being released.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/2/2012 16:30 pm
Candace, Tractorman & Scott: Let me remind & repeat to, you again…if all of us just stick with God’s Word on who or what is God-then all of us would be one in His word:
1 Corinthians 8:6 ” to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
I think this Word of our brother Paul is plain and clear…but if we still insist on teaching EXTRA BIBLICAL DOCTRINE-such as the TRINITY-then argument and disunity is the result! Do we pray “O Trinity, God of all flesh? Or the rather do we not pray “Our Father which art in heaven…then later close it with “these things we asked in Jesus our Savior name?”
If we stick with the Bible rather than the teaching or Word of Men it would be well with us all and much simpler!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/2/2012 15:07 pm
Dear Candace,
I too appreciate the cordial exchanges. Although these matters have been debated for centuries, it is not to us to try and win these arguments at the cost of bruising one another. All truth belongs to God and we are just blind men trying to help one another along the way.
As to your comment regarding Isaiah 11:1 I would like to counter by saying you have mis-quoted the verse. The Hebrew “choter” is never interpreted as “root” nor does any translation that I know of do so. The Isaiah reference is creating the picture of a new tree springing forth from a dead stump bringing hope to Israel that God will not forget his promise to David.
By contrast, the Rev. 22 verse is NOT just about these things. It is about the eternal authority of Jesus Christ. He is not only the offspring of David, but the very root of David as well. Jesus not only came after David, but He pre-dated David. Jesus not only carries the reign of David, He also commissioned David. Root=God; Offspring=Man.
The plain meaning of Rev 22:16 is Jesus Himself declaring His pre-existance to the churches. If you don’t want to accept it, I leave it there.
Regarding my definiton/doctrine of the Trinity, I will have to leave that for a later time.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/2/2012 14:13 pm
Scott Dale & Tractorman….I really do want to thank you both for being such gentlemen & men of God. Excellemt engaging.
I do have one more question if I may. I’d like to know your definition/doctrine of The Trinity.
As to your comment on Rev 22:16, Scott Dale, I would like to counter with
Isaiah 11:1; “a root shall come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bare fruit.” NIV & Matt 1:1 a record of the geneology of Jesus Christ, the son of David & the son of Abraham.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/2/2012 07:14 am
Candace,
Your post #166: “How can Almighty God be the son of man?”
It looks like you are still refusing to acknowledge the omnipotence of God. Have you forgotten Rev. 22:16?
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David..”
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/1/2012 23:49 pm
@ Candace - oh my! I don’t even know where to start, so actually I won’t. You and I (along with others) have made our views known.
… and no, I do not rely on the KJV - I don’t think many do, unless they are Ruckmanites, who I believe have stated that the 1611 KJV actually corrects the Greek when applicable!
And although I vehemently disagree with your biblical hermeneutic, I thank you for sharing your thoughts.
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/1/2012 22:25 pm
Tractorman….masterful twisting of the word, I must say. With much respect for your knowledge of God’s Word & your ability of expression, I must put up a bit of a fight if I may?
I have several avenues I would like to take but which one 1st when there are many concepts brought in your analogy that have huge holes in them?
I guess I’ll start w/ LOGOS since we are discussing Jn 1:1.
Logos: (word, thought, principle or speech) logos as “word” means conveying orally one’s thoughts, ideas or plan.
by your logic the thoughts, plan & mind of God = another god-being or
Jesus.
I see the Logos as YHWH’s mind, plan & purposes being intimately Himself just as our own thoughts are uniquely us. His word is w/ Himself, is Himself & “in the fullness of time…God’s word was “made” flesh.” (Gal 4:4)
Yahweh “spoke” by His Logos & everything that was created came into being.
How can we say “God was “made” a little lower than the angels”? Heb 2:9 but we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned w/ glory & honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
You have also quoted Jn 10:32,33 proving Jesus thinks he’s God. When taken alone, yes, I too would have to concede & say….”you’re right Tractorman. It’s in blk & wht, Jesus is calling himself God.
BUT, coupled w/ other scriptures on this very subject it becomes plain, the Jews wanted to stone him for claiming to be “the Son of God.” Jn 19:7 which in ancient times a son has the same authortiy as his father when he comes in his father’s name, making that son “equal” to his father.
The N.T. is full of Jesus being called the Son of God. Jesus most often referred to himself as “the son of man.” How can Almighty God be the son of man?
You have offered another scripture proving Jesus is God & pre-existing using Jn 17:5. Here again, if we can understand “logos” then it becomes easy to understand God’s Word is full of His Glory! Every word spoken by God is full w/ Power & Glory! The Glory Jesus had before the foundation of the world was & is in God’s Word before that word was made flesh. I know it’s difficult to receive this truth when according to how long you’ve been saved, you’ve been brainwashed to believe in a pagan trinity. Please research it’s history.
You say you’re not influenced by or quoted any church fathers, but indeed you have. If your standard bible is the KJV then you’ve been subjected to the perverted Latin Vulgate time & time again. We’re hard pressed to find a translation that does not have a trinity bias. The CJB comes the closest.
Phil 2:6….you’re not gonna like this but there’s no way I can leave it out, it’s just too important. Jesus being the only begotten Son of God Almighty had every right to lay claim over all creation & the throne of David just by the mere fact it was all his as an HEIR. But there’s something more to this……………As the LAST Adam, Jesus was fully aware of the grave error Adam & Eve made when satan tempted them to eat of the forbidden fruit….”if you eat you will be as God…..” Gen 3:5
Jesus was not about to elevate himself to that degree of pride & compete w/ His Father as the 1st Adam had tried to do & Satan before him. Isaiah 14:14
Instead, he/Y’shua humbled himself to become a servant, not his rightful place as a King, to accomplish the hard task the Father had sent him to do……be totally sumitted to his Father, die on a cross as the Lamb of God & purchase back what the 1st Adam had forfieted by his pride to become as God. By Y’shua’s obedience to be a willing servant, “GOD” has now elevated him to King of over all kings & Lord over every lord! Yahweh has not made him/Y’shua GOD but “a god” having all authority because he comes in the Name of Yahweh!
About Isaiah 44:6…a matter of translation: “This says Yahweh, Israel’s King, & Israel’s Redeemer is Yahweh of hosts, the first & the last” or the alpha & omega being the Greek equivalent.
And here too, I’m going to ruffle a lot of feathers I’m sure. That’s not my heart but I must put it out here.
Rev 1:8; I Am the Alpha & Omega(Greek) First & Last (Hebrew)……” referring to Yahweh/God alone.
Verses 17 & 18 we see Y’shua/Jesus and he says I was dead, now alive for ever more, “I am the first & the last”: meaning Y’shua is the firstborn of many brethren & the last Adam who has conquored death & been raised again to life eternal by Yahweh Himself. Yahweh was not dead & then raised. Yahshua died for us as the Lamb of God & he’s now in heaven a glorified man made immortal by God.(JOHN 12:23) We too are promised a glorified body & immortality “for we shall be like him/Jesus.” I Jn 3:2
About Rev 22:12,13…it appears you’ve lifted that out of context. Go back & start with vs 1. Who’s talking? Who’s coming back w/ rewards? Who’s the Alpha & Omega & and who’s the 1st & the last??? Let’s be honest here, God is Spirit. He is manifested in the Son. From verse 1 & following we see the Father AND the Lamb coming back. The Alpha & Omega/God & the 1st & last/the Son, together. That’s how we get in trouble to begin with…taking scripture out of context & omitting key vs that go together. i.e half a picture or worst a distorted picture. And how many times in the gospels did Jesus speak prophetically as his Father spoke through him???? If God can & does speak through men, how more would He & did He speak through His Son?
I know you’ve said you’ve read all the rebuttals & have found flaws w/ all of them but I’m going to give you a challenge. This is only for those w/ the guts to delve deep & honest enough to admit error. The proud will never be able to read this book. If you are humble & have a teachable spirit, than perhaps you will. That book is…”The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound”. It’s not an easy book to read & it’s certainly not for the novice. But it does present the Word of God in a more honest light. Again, I’m not a Unitarian as a denomination.
God Bless you, Tractorman & I’m more than grateful you are not angry w/ me.
In His Grip!
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/1/2012 21:40 pm
@ Candace - re: post 163 - you keep stating that no one will answer your questions - please re-read posts 51, 52 & 53? - they may not be totally satisfying to you, but they did address the voluntary hierarchical submission/chain of command and equality within the Godhead.
I do not believe anybody is denying that Jesus was born a man, born of a woman, born under the Law - and being a good Torah-observant Jew, OF COURSE He was going to worship and obey God His Father and call Him ‘God’… this is the SAME Person Who also allowed Himself to be baptized ‘to fulfill all righteousness’, even though He had NO sin of which to repent…
Can I completely figure it all out - no! Does that necessitate that it’s illogical - no! You have also claimed we have swallowed the teachings of the Catholic church and the ‘traditions of men’, yet NONE of us have quoted ANY “church-fathers” or theologians at all - we’ve used only scripture. Yes, we ALL have ‘filters’ through which we examine scripture - you do as well. (and I’m not angry while writing this).
We are simply stating that the ‘Word was God’ (v1) and that he ‘tented Himself in human flesh’ (v14) invading human history some 2000 years ago.
We affirm that Jesus existed BEFORE the manger:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was (John 17:5)
Jesus interestingly enough did not think His Deity was something to grasp on to or cling to… He selectively exercised the PEROGATIVES of Deity at given times:
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (Phil 2:6)
Jehovah God speaks in Isaiah 44:6 (see also 41:4 & 48:12)
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God
Jesus uses the same phrase in Rev 1:17 (v11 is questionable as to Whom is speaking - but since the Father does NOT have a body, v17 can ONLY be Jesus)
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last
NO human being is ever referred to or refers to himself as the ‘first and the last’ in scripture…
Also in Rev 22:12-13
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last
Jesus very clearly is referred to as God:
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life (1 John 5:20)
And the religious leaders sure thought that Jesus was claiming to be God:
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God (John 10:32-33)
The writer of Hebrews also calls Jesus God:
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom (Heb 1:8)
I know, I have gone to www sites that DISMISS ALL these verses for the Deity of Christ, putting their particular ’spin’ on them to disprove such, but just google ‘early church fathers and the deity of christ’ - I agree, that some of the things the early church-fathers said would definitely raise some eyebrows, and that’s why none of us quoted them, for we believe scripture alone attests to the Deity of Christ, but many of these are 1st and 2nd century quotes which tell us the doctrine was taught EARLY, or, and it IS something to ponder, that the ‘church’ went off the rails early…
One such www site:
http://www.letusreason.org/Trin1.htm
For heresies, please see:
http://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/trinity/heresies1.shtml
It CERTAINLY APPEARS that ERROR BEGATS ERROR - and it all starts with an understanding of the Person, Nature and Character of God. Look at the JW’s and Mormons for examples of a one-degree (at a minimum) compass error years ago has taken them WAY OFF COURSE today into the Kingdom of the Cults.
I ask ALL in this group to read (shameless plug) my commentaries (Ruth, Nehemiah, Esther, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Daniel, and now Matthew) and call me on things, for I too am still learning.
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/1/2012 12:46 pm
Post #163, Candace: Father & God - are we not referring to the same? God came here to show us how to live - our dependence on Him. It appears, Candace, that you interpret Scripture to a point where it is believable. This is what I am referring to regarding “logic.”
TSnow #155. you said “why I do I ask why does Jesus have a FAther…” I have never asked that. I know why he has a Father. My question that no one has answered yet is….”if Jesus IS God, why does he HAVE a God?”
And I don’t answer the scriptures by logic, I answer them by ……..”line upon line, precept upon precept here a little & there a little.” Isaiah 28:10
“study to show youreslf aproved…..rightly dividing the word” 2 Tim 2:15
I think God expexts us to know His word. I think He expexts us to meditate upon the word day & night.” Joshua 1:8
Dear T, we can’t know the truth if we’re not willing to study the word & the languages it was written in. Just accepting what some preascher has told us the word says is not good enough. We’re to be “like the Bereans who were more noble because they searched the scriptures day & night to see if these things be so.” Acts 17:11
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
2/1/2012 07:14 am
Dear TSnow, 1st I wanted to pray for your safety on the road & for traveling mercies to surround you. I pray too for angels to be dispenced to gather around you. The scriptures tell us we can call down as many heavenly hosts as we have need of for they are ministering spirits for the heirs of salvation. I call them now in Y’shua’s name for your comfort as you are on these busy highways.
As to your recent post….yes we need to be praying, seeking & manifest the glory of God so those that are lost will have encounter with Him! That is definitely part of the Great Commission. But there is so much more. Y’shua spent his 3.5 yr ministry on earth demonstrating exactly what his Church would look like & the exploits it would be doing!
Here’s a fantastic example of his church………”and these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE; in my name they shall cast out devils, they shall speak w/ new tongues, they shall take up serpents, & if they drink any deadly thing they shall not be harmed: they shall lay hands on the sick & they shall recover”. Mark 16:17 & 18
You see T, there is so very much more to being a Christ follower than going to church once a wk & sittig in a pew for an hr. We are to be mainifesting the Kingdom of Heaven just like our Savior demonstrated while on this earth.
If He is our Head & we His Body on earth, then His Body should be doing the “even greater works” He said we would do in his name…..”he that believes on me, the WORKS that I do shal he do ALSO,& greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father.” Jn 14:12 that includes raising the dead.
Y’shua/Jesus is saying the same Spirit that is in him is in us. He did not have to be God to do these miracles anymore than we have to be God. But we do have to be saved by his name, Yahshua, be baptized in that same Name….not Father Son & Holy Ghost. And we do have to be filled with the Holy Spirt, the Ruach of God w/ the evidence of speaking in new tongues.
If we entered into Passover & received the blood of the Lamb of God & are saved, then we must be willing to enter into the next Feast of the LORD which is Pentecost.
If we camp at Passover, we’ll never experience the “power” that allows us to do the “Greater Works” & we’ll not be sealed/engaged (Eph 1:13,14) to our Bridegroom, hence staying as the foolish virgins to be cast away when He comes for His Bride, because they had no Oil/infilling of the H.S…..” Matt 25:8-10
And if we don’t enter into Pentecost, we’ll never be ready for the Feast of Tabernacles that “perfects the Bride” & is the shadow of the Rapture.
The Bride can’t be ready if she doesn’t even know “who” the Groom is.
He’s not the Father/YAHWEH….He’s the Son……Yahshua.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/31/2012 21:51 pm
Post #160, Candace: Grabbed a few minutes this morning for this. We Christians have a mission from God. That mission is to BE Jesus to the world. The world needs to see the character of Jesus [Gal.5:22-23] in us. These are the attributes of God. People need to see that we have something they need.
When we stand before the “evaluation” seat of Christ [Ac.14:12; 2Cor.5:10]; healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, etc., will not be important. The important thing will be, how you and I allowed God to impact the lives of others through us. That is servanthood, Candace - not what we do for God, but what He does through us. He never does anything outside of the purpose of His will.
Why can’t we pray to be more like Jesus in character - that God would display His character traits in us. That is the biblical meaning of obedience. T.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/31/2012 08:54 am
TSnow, it is the truth. Check any encyclopedia, church history book etc & you will see.
Thanks so much for being willing to check it out!
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/28/2012 08:10 am
Post #158, Candace: This has truly been educational. I am on the road 24/7, hauling freight. I can no longer spend time here. So I humbly sign-off vbvbc.org. Perhaps I will be back during home time next week. God’s blessing to you all.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/28/2012 08:08 am
Oh TSnow you are a challenge.
Matt 10: 6-8, the whole chapter even, is Jesus’ instructions to his disciples & the Church to come. vs 8 “go heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those w/ leporsy & cast of demons….” Jesus gave them the same authority he was GIVEN from his Father. And if these verses are just for Y’shua’s disciples then we should probably throw out this whole chapter of Matthew???
You quoted “….baptized in the name of the Father, the Son & the Holy Ghost…” Did you know there are no manuscripts to back that up. That comes from the perversion of the Latin Vulgate. The manuscripts we do have read: ” go….baptizing them in MY NAME…” What is the “name”???
Is it Father? Is it Son? Is it Holy Spirit?????
There is only ONE name by which we are saved. Do you know what it is????
I’ve personally met a man who was healed of leporsy when prayed for & was blessed to hear a missionary who had just come back from Africa w/ film documented by doctors of a man raised from the dead after he & his team laid hands on him.
If you’d like to watch an incredible testimony of a USA Dr Chauncey who very recently raised a man from the dead after God told him to go & DO IT….that testimony is on Pat Robinson’s 700 Club. Go to CBN 700 Club & look for it. It’s absolutely wonderful!!!!
T, that’s what Y’shua’s Church is suppose to be doing!
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/28/2012 07:59 am
Post #145, Candace: Quite honestly, I give little weight to the teachings of Michael F. Blume.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/28/2012 07:59 am
Post #151, Candace: “The Great Commission” -
“Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” [Mt.28:18-20].
Christians are not commissioned to “raise the dead,” but to share the Gospel with the world, beginning at Jerusalem [Ac.1:7-8].
Further, we are called to allow Jesus, abiding in us through the presence of His Holy Spirit, to live His life in us [Gal.2:20]. This does not mean doing the things He did here on earth, such as raising the dead. It means, through obedience, allowing Jesus to “manifest” His attributes in us [the Fruit of the Spirit - Gal.5:22-23].
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/28/2012 07:17 am
Post #154, Candace: The Catholic Church may very well teach G in three Persons, but it hardly originated with Catholicism. I do not comment on the many verses/passages you offer because I do know what they teach and it is nit what you want them to. If you KNOW we take the Bible by faith and not “logic,” why do you insist on interpreting it from a “logical” viewpoint? Questions such as, “Why does Jesus have a Father?” - While on earth, Jesus was God’s example of how WE are to live. God came down here in the body of Jesus to show us what He’s looking for. Yes, Jesus was dependent on God the Father demonstrating OUR dependence on Him, you see? God made Himself visible to the world in the body of Jesus Christ. This is a biblical concept you have not been able to grasp. It is neither pagan nor Catholic. It is an eternal truth. Always has been.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/27/2012 10:38 am
Dear TSnow, It appears to me you just ignore the many scriptures I offer & go directly back to what you’ve always been taught. Re-read these scriptures about Jesus beng wholely dependant on his Father for everything. That he can do absolutely no miracles w/out his Father flowing through him. Read the ones where he went to his own home town & “could do NO miracles except for a few healings because of their unbelief.” (Mk 6:5)
Now is the perfect time to come out from under the false teaching of the Catholic Church & it’s bogus Latin Vugate & really study the word of God to show yourself approved of God. (2 Tim 2:15) Truths are being offered here that few are ever taught in their dead churches. We are in an hour where “all things are being restored before the return of Messiah.” (Acts 3:21)
There is literally a “movement” of God’s Spirit upon those who are pressing in. Those who will let go of false & pagan teachings from Constantine to the establishment of the Catholic Institution & their multi-paganized religion, will begin to really “know” the One true God & His Christ. (Jn 17:3) Wouldn’t you rather have the truth of God’s Word over the many false teachings of paganized religion???
These very ones, seeking truth, are those who are feeling persecution from the established church right now. Very few seem to be willing to let go of traditions & pride sets itelf up w/ a vengence.
Boy! I sure jumped at the chance to come out of dead religion when it was offered to me.
God Bless you,T & I mean that w/ all my heart.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/26/2012 21:11 pm
Repost #152: Forgive me. It was actually 2 questions.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/26/2012 03:17 am
Post #147, Candace… You have stated you believe the fullness of God dwelt in Christ. For some reason you have refused to consider what that means - the “fullness of God.” Again, ‘fullness’ means, “all that is possible.”
Further, no - God did not come to earth, leaving heaven unoccupied. As has been made abundantly clear, God made Himself visible to the world in the body of Jesus Christ. He is everything that God is. He [Jesus] is worthy of praise, honor and glory. Only God is due praise, honor and glory.
The passages you use to disprove God in three Persons, actually show the truth of it.
One question, if you don’t mind: you have attended Bible college? Where?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/26/2012 03:17 am
I need to add one more thought to my last 2 posts concerning THE MAN YAHSHUA HA MASCHIAH/Jesus the Christ. He clearly taught the miracles were not his doing but His Father’s:
“I myself can do nothing: I judge & my judgement is just; becaue I seek not my own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” Jn 5:30….
“then Jesus answered & said to them, Verily, verily I say unto you; the Son can do nothing of himself but what he sees the Father do: for whatsoever HE does, these also does the Son likewise.” Jn 5:19
Jesus does not have to be God to do miracles any more than the Church/Ekklesia has to be God. It’s by the power of the Ruach ha Kodesh given by God that does these mighty things though us for His Own Glory. The Son was/is obedient to the Father even now as God’s High Priest.(Heb 2:17). We are obedient to the Son who is our head & we his body & obedient to the will of the Father.
Jesus raised the dead…we are to raise the dead etc. Is that not our Great Commission? Just read the gospels & the Book of Acts if you want to see what “real” Church looks like.
In His Grip
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/25/2012 19:18 pm
Thank you T, I know that very well. But until Jesus came they did take away the sins for that yr. That’s why the Israelites had to keep the Feasts of the LORD yr after yr after yr UNTIL Messiah came.(LEVITICUS 15:16)
When they rejected God’s Messiah & kept keeping the feasts complete w/ sacrifices…Yahweh made sure the temple was utterly destroyed in 70 AD, I said that. Jesus prophesied it when he told them “no stone would be left on top of another.” Matt 24:2
If you read the O.T. where God instituted His Holy Feasts i.e. Feast of Atonement, He accepted the blood sacrifices when the “high priest” (a type of Christ) entered into the Holy of holies (another type) and the people’s sins were forgiven for that year because Yahweh “accepted” the offering. Lev 15:16
As I said in post 147 i.e. Heb 9:12-14 When the “antiype” was finally given by God the type was done away with.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/25/2012 06:27 am
Repost #148: trees but not seeing the forest. T.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/25/2012 00:40 am
Post #147, Candace: those sacrifices wetrees but not seeing the forrest.re only a SHADOW of the coming, ultimate sacrifice of Jesus - they never took away sins. Please study Heb.10. With all rhe love in my heart Candace, you’re lookung at the
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/25/2012 00:38 am
Scott Dale, I’m going to make an attempt to continue where I have left off. I can not promise I will be able to finish but God willing, I’ll get as far as I can.
About a “mere” man atoning for all the sins ever committed & yet to be commited. That seems to trouble you greatly. so you have said that “God became a man through the miracle of incarnation.”
I’ve stated many scriptures that tell us God is not nor ever will be a man. I’m not saying He can’t if He wants to but He seems to be saying HE ISN’T & WON”T. And God’s made it clear, He provides the atonement & He alone accrpts it or rejects it.
Example: At every Feast of Atonement up until the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD God “accepted” the blood of lambs, rams & bullocks for THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. Lev 16:30 is only one of the many vs stating this.
Think of it Scott, if God accepted these crude animals & the people were cleansed of their sin for the coming year, how much MORE would the sinless, only begotten Son of God be accepted by His Father! It was His plan!
Heb 9:22 “for almost all things are by the law purged w/ blood & w/out the shedding of blood is no remission.”….vs 24-28″ but Christ/Anointed One has entered into heaven itself to appear in the presence of “God”. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” KJV
Heb 10:6; “in burnt offerings & sacrifices You/Yahweh have no pleasure…vs 7 “I come (in the volume of the books it is written of me) to do Your will Oh God.”
You said that God became a man & therefore He became Jesus. That’s the miracle of “incarnation”. Does that mean Yahweh was no longer God but now He’s His Son, Jesus???? Does that mean all the 33 yrs Jesus walked the earth there was no God in heaven???? Does that mean God died & who than was left to raise Him/God from the dead???? Who did Jesus pray to? Who spoke from heaven…”this is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.???? Or are there really 2 Gods? One greater & one lesser????
Your theology falls so far from the word of God when seen through the corrupt lens of the Catholic Institution where the manuscripts were translated into Latin & perverted w/ the paganism of this church & all it pagan rituals & traditions that form it’s “universal” make up.
Have you ever read William Tyndale’s N.T. written in 1534? He was greatly persecuted by the C.Church & eventually put to death for retranslating the Latin scriptures back into their original Hebrew & Greek to then translate them into English for the common people to once again have the word of God in their own hands. The KJV of 1611 was taken from the Latin Vulgate w/ all it’s many errors & trinitarian bent & that has become “the standard” for all our bibles.
I would like to leave you w/ an assignment if you’d like. Please reseach the word “incarnation”. It is a pagan ritual used by witches & the like to call their gods to come & enter into a human being. Once these gods have enterd into that person they completely taken over so the person no longer has a will of their own. The god or goddes now has full control to do whatever it pleases.
To answer your question, Scott Dale…do I believe in the miracle of God taking over the control of His son’s body through “incarnation”….no! I do not. I believe the scriptures that plainly teach…..”for all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Christ.” Col 1:19 And when the Ruach of God departed Y’shua for the 1st time in his life, as he became sin on that cross, Y’shua cried out…..”my God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me?” One God & He is YHWH!
I believe Only the Word of God that’s been translated as closely as we are able to get from the Hebrew & Greek manuscripts that are still available. All be it they are copies of copies of copies of copies. But I believe in the miracle of God having perserved all we need ……..”until we come into the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a full grown man, unto the measure & stature of the fullness of Christ.” NKJV
I know you have a couple more questions that I haven’t gotten to. If you would like them answered I will try at another time.
With a heart full of agape………..be blessed.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/24/2012 23:08 pm
Dearest Scott…..I would like to start w/ post 109 if I may. Glorious God & Father of my Precious Savior, please grant me wisdom & Your guidance as I attempt to answer my precious brother.
“Is anything impossible for God?” Unless you can show why it is beneath the nature or dignity of God to become a man, how can you say it is impossible?”
I can only & always stand on God’s Word & that alone. I will not go to extra biblical terms or doctrines of men. The only references I want to draw from will be Hebrew & Greek words & their meanings & a few words & phrases that are bought up time & time again that demand a 2nd look. Other than that I am hoping to rely solely on God’s Word.
By God’s Own Word He has stated “that I am not a man that I should lie or a son of man that I should repent.” “I Am the LORD, I change not.” Mal 3:6 & I Sam 15:29 “the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.” NAS
I see a God Who is telling us He changes not & that He is not a man. I stand on that & I take God at His word.
There are things that God can not do…..He can not lie. He can not be tempted. He can not die, He is eternal, everlasting, the alpha & omega. He can not force His will on us by His Own word. He can not cease from being God………….”Father of lights with whom there is no variableness, or shasow of turning.” James 1:17
If God ceased being God, all of creation would come to an an abrupt halt & would instantly collapse. ” all the heavens where made by You…& You perserve them” paraphrase Ne9:6
But….God has promised a Savior, Messiah, a Son that on this day He has begotten him. We owe it to that Son “to come to the knowledge of the Son of God” Eph 4:13
I am so sorry Scott…I just can not go on. I will come back when I am able. Please refrain from comments until I have finished & then I will gladly recieve your thoughts……..
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/24/2012 08:16 am
post 141….T, why use the pagan term “trinity” at all if it’s not in God’s Word? One of my majors was Church History & The Origin of Religion.
You’d be shocked to see how many pagan trinities there are throughout history…..if you’re interested in reading about some of them got to http://mikeblume.com/pagntr.htm I’m not familiar w/ M Blume but am very familar w/ this history.
Hence…this is expressly why we have a God that was so adamant about having a choosen people that WILL NOT serve the pagan gods of the heathen. “I AM the LORD, thy GOD & thou SHALT NOT have ANY FALSE gods before Me.”
The trinity is as pagan as the day is long & I think it really does matter to God that we know Him & the truth of who His Son is.
” if you do not believe Yeshua the Messiah came as a human being you are anti-messiah.” CJB
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 19:49 pm
so very sorry…another blog just ripped from my hands before I had time to correct it:(
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 19:27 pm
Tiuche, you have spoken of a little god ogods. The Father being GOD/Elohim & Jesus being a lesser god. Boy that sure reeks of polytheism to me. I’m not being disrespectfull. I’m trying to ge to the bottom of this horrible deception.
You are abolutely correct in saying …”know ye that they ye are gods>” Jn 10:34 And yes, Jesus is called “a fod”. There is much confusion in the term God/Elohim & gods/having authrority from God. The 2 Greek word are Ton Theon meaning the Almighty Elohim. theos or theoi means god or gods.
In the O.T. as well as the new we see where God’s Word called angels theoi/gods, Moses called theos/god & the Son of God called theos/god. None of these usages means these are now the Mighty EL/Yahweh. In every case they mean “having the authroity” to speak on El’s/Yahweh’s behalf. Not unserstand the Greek or the Hebrew brings much confusion.
Thus the infamous scripture Ps 110:1 “the LORD/Yahweh said of my Lord/ladonai sit at My right hand until I/Yahweh make your enemies your footstool.” In this scripture we can see clearly that Yahweh has promised to seat His Son Ladonai/David;s master on the throne of David & make every enemy Yahshua/Jesus’ footstool. David, by inspiration of the Ruah of God is prophesying that the Messiah that is promised to come will be Lord over him/David as Lord of lords & King of kings. This is the throne of David Yahweh has promised His Son. Luke 1:32: “he/Jesus shall be great, and be called the son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him/Jesus the throne of his father, DAVID.”
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 19:25 pm
#130 TSnow, when I say Y’shua is the Son of God…I mean ALL the fullness of Deity/God dwells in him. What I don’t believe is the trinity doctrine that calls the (Son of God/Son of man), God the Son. That is found nowhere in all of scripture. You can’t find even one verse that calls Messiah, “God the Son”. Why would any of us twist God’s Word by naming the Son another God?. He is the Son of God w/ the fullness of his Fathr dwelling in himself. All the essence of God choose to dwell w/in him that the world might know the Father through the Son. Immanuel “God w/ us” equals “all the fullness of the One & Only God dwelling in His Son. Not that God no longer existed in heaven seated on His throne or ceased to be everywhere present as scripture says He is….but all the fullness of His essence/Ruach was/is in His Son manifested.
Y’shua/Jesus IS the “image” of THE INVISIBLE GOD. God can not & has not been seen by any man but He can be seen & known through the Son of man. Image is not the actual substance. Image is like a mirror reflecting something else. Jesus is THAT REFELECTION of the invisible God. That is what the scriptures are saying.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 18:30 pm
Post #140, TIUCHE; Bro, I havenot once gone beyond what is written. “Trinity” is simply the term used to describe God manifesting Himself in three Persons. I’m out time due to being on the road. But will get back. Be well.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 14:52 pm
Post #139 T. snow:
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1 Corinthian 8:5-6. Let us stick with this scripture on who are God and Lord is instead of the Trinity.
T Snow the Trinity as an extra biblical doctrine serves only to divide as believers. If it is wrong as a doctrine ( I said IF)…then those who teach the Trinity will be found liars, right? As a doctrine it is also open to many questions and doubts. For example:
1. God the Father is a person , Jesus is a person no doubts about them being persons; but how about the Holy Spirit is it is also a person?
2. We know that God the Father have a Spirit, and that Jesus have a Spirit and their Spirits are Holy; but how about the Holy spirit as a person does He also have a Spirit?
3. Does the Spirit have a spirit?
4. How many Holy Spirit as a God are there? One? Seven?
All the answers you will have on these questions are barely supported by scriptures…so why not stick on the scriptures and not go beyond what is revealed?
But if you insist with the Trinity…okay that won’t cause any problem with our salvation I believe…but we will remain divided by that.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 12:20 pm
Post #129, TIUCHE: Certainly, there are passages wherein interpretation may differ from one individual to another, such as in the epistles. However, there are other passages which remain rock solid, such as salvation; eternal security; and of course, the Deity of Christ.
With regard to “other gods”? They are pagan. There is only one true God, there is no other [Deut.4:39]. God makes this truth clear throughout Scripture, but one verse is sufficient.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 11:35 am
Post #130, Candace: When we say, “Jesus IS God,” what is meant is, He is the “fullness” of God, which is what Paul is writing in Col.2:9. “For in Christ the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” There is no hidden meaning here.
In the verse prior… “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. FOR…”
Apparently, there was [as today], the teaching going around that Jesus isn’t the fullness of God in bodily form. Paul is writing to warn us not to be influenced by such a teaching, BECAUSE [”For”] in Christ the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. This verse parallels 1Tim.3:16, that “God was manifest in the flesh.”
“Fullness of [the] Deity”… “Fullness” means, “containing all that is possible.” It does not mean lesser, but equal. We can also look at Phil.2:1-11, where the apostle writes that “equality with God ” was/is not easily grasped, just as is going on here.
Yes, Jesus knew what would happen and the glory afterward. He was [while here] THE example for us to follow. We endure difficult times in this life, but Scripture tells us there is a reward [2Cor.4:16-18].
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 10:57 am
Oh, Tiuche….I “see” & “hear” exactly what you are saying & yes, Jezebel is well & strong in our midst. A very distrutive spirit & one that will not come down w/out a fight! Our weapons indeed are not carnal & it will take “unity” amongst the brethren & submission to authority. And the LOVE of God in ways we very seldom see. Your words are heard. Yes, indeed they are.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 06:18 am
Scott Dale, I am not refusing to answer you at all. My dialog w/ you takes prayer & stamina. I don’t want to just carelessly throw something out there. I want to be thinking clear & I want an anointing be upon me when I come to you. And I want to maintain my submission to you.
There is something quite different w/ you. Not that I diminish any of these other precious ones…I do not. But w/ you I have a greater responsiblity to be accurate & alert. Which most of the time I am neither.
I can’t tell you right now why this is so but I do believe the Lord has given me something concerning you that is very special. If He directs me to share that w/ you, I will do that w/ much pleasure. If He does not give me that go ahead, then I will have to suffer it until He does.
Trust me Scott, please. There is much more. I can answer you. I am not stuck or stymied in any way. I don’t hold my position because of logic or pride or any such thing. I hold it because of God’s word & that alone.
I realy wish I could just get to it now, but I physically can’t….
I don’t want to keep bringing that up because I destest it so much & I don’t want the sympathy….I just want to be free.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 06:11 am
Scott Dale: Allow me to remind you the summation of my comment in that post you just mentioned. Here is what i was trying to lead all you into-
from post#132:
But if anyone of you won’t yield your position does that matter at all? I believe that won’t matter…for all of our opinions are only our surmising of what or who is God. All of us now see through the smoked glass darkly but when the TRUTH will come on the 7th Trumpet then the mystery of God will be finished! Let us all remember that we cannot put God in our pocket to enclose Him in our limited minds and thinking.
I beseech you all including Tractorman to focus on one important duty this very hour-THE PULLING DOWN OF THE BIG BIG LIE ON MARRIAGE AND FAMILY- to turn the hearts of the father to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers!
If all of you fail to do this while families and individuals suffers because of the false system & doctrine on marriage & family-you would have failed the Lord Jesus words: OCCUPY TILL I COME! You are all here to set the captives free-to help in anyway to stop the enemy from making it hard on the Saints of God-shouts these to the mountaintops. Jesus said “What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.”Matthew 10:27.
“The use of history is to give value to the present hour and its duty.”
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
THAT was what i was leading all of you into…to pull down the stronghold OF SATAN on THE BIG BIG LIE ON MARRIAGE & FAMILY-his false notions and thoughts which had made and are making Jezebels of our women to destroy men like in the days of Adam & Eve-the lie swallowed by the mother of mankind to thwart the work of God on earth.
1 Corinthian 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
If I fail myself to convince everyone of you all of this…i have already done my job on warning…but perhaps it is falling on deaf ears and eyes that cannot see!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 05:45 am
Tiuche,
You ask:
“With these scriptures I cannot understand too why Scot Dale, perhaps T Snow and the rest won’t yield their belief that Jesus is not co-equal with God since Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater than Himself and all the gods since there are many other gods.”
I’ve answered this point in post #127 paragraph 3. But to restate it again, the answer is in the miracle of the incarnation. How does God (the Son) become a man? Yes, it was necessary to take on human flesh (a body), but more importantly it was necessary to set aside His attributes and authority of deity. This is what it means when it says “He humbled himself” in Philippians 2. By virtue of this voluntary act, Jesus the Son became LESS than the Father.
At present, Jesus is STILL less than the Father because He has not yet received back the fullness of the glory and power that he set aside when He came to earth. The reason for this is because the fullness of our redemption is not complete. When that finally happens, Jesus, THE MAN, will be in full possession of every divine prerogative and glory that he possessed even before the Creation.
So, yes, it can honestly be said that the Son, in His humanity, is LESS than the Father. But this only tells half of the story!
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 05:15 am
Candace,
After reading your post #130, am I not correct that you simply don’t believe that God has the power to become a man if he wanted to? You are not refusing to believe that Jesus is God because it is so manifestly evident from the scriptures you quote because NONE of them verify such a position. To the contrary, these same scriptures testify to the genuineness of the humanity of Christ. You say that if Jesus were really God (the Son) that somehow his suffering and death must have been a ruse because you refuse to believe that He was capable of actually becoming a man and genuinely suffering. Why do you make your God so impotent?
For some reason, you have evidently found your position to be intellectually satisfying because you hold to it so tenaciously. But why haven’t you tried to rebutt the intellectually DIS-satisfying position that the life of ONE man can somehow atone for all the sins committed from the time of Adam? Or that the value of just ONE man can somehow fully satisfy the infinite demands of God’s justice? Candace, you have no answers for these things; and you don’t even try to discuss them. The doctrine of the incarnation is not some diabolical invention of man; and even if it were what is the point of concocting such a doctrine? Does it minimize God’s glory in any way? NO! It magnifies it! You say you understand the doctrine of the Trinity but I say you don’t understand it at all for if you did you would have never considered the incarnation to be an impossibility.
Candace, God’s love for you could NEVER be adequately displayed through the work of one individual human being. Why should God entrust the delivery of such precious and infinite treasure to some mortal proxy? What kind of a God would he be? No Candace, He came HIMSELF to tell and show you how much he loves you.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 04:46 am
Candace: Your reasoning SEEMS right but here ARE the scripture that tells us Christ is God and yet lesser than His Father-the Almighty God:
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all (including Jesus himself) …
Hebrew 1:8 But unto the Son He says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.
John 20:28 Thomas said to him(Jesus), “My Lord and my God!”
John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
In the light of these scriptures why won’t we believe Jesus is God? If men are even called gods by God through the scriptures, should we think that calling or believing Jesus as God be not appropriate? Even Thomas the Apostle called Jesus not only his Lord but also His God!
With these scriptures I cannot understand too why Scot Dale, perhaps T Snow and the rest won’t yield their belief that Jesus is not co-equal with God since Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater than Himself and all the gods since there are many other gods.
But if anyone of you won’t yield your position does that matter at all? I believe that won’t matter…for all of our opinions are only our surmising of what or who is God. All of us now see through the smoked glass darkly but when the TRUTH will come on the 7th Trumpet then the mystery of God will be finished! Let us all remember that we cannot put God in our pocket to enclose Him in our limited minds and thinking.
I beseech you all including Tractorman to focus on one important duty this very hour-THE PULLING DOWN OF THE BIG BIG LIE ON MARRIAGE AND FAMILY- to turn the hearts of the father to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers!
If all of you fail to do this while families and individuals suffers because of the false system & doctrine on marriage & family-you would have failed the Lord Jesus words: OCCUPY TILL I COME! You are all here to set the captives free-to help in anyway to stop the enemy from making it hard on the Saints of God-shouts these to the mountaintops. Jesus said “What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.”Matthew 10:27.
“The use of history is to give value to the present hour and its duty.”
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 03:49 am
Tiuche, you are dear before the Lord. I am encouraged by your understanding & it gives me great hope for the Church to finally come out of Babylon. I do say that w/ much love.
You’ve said you don’t understand why Candace doesn’t believe in the deity of Christ. For a number of reasons Tiuche. If I may, let try to explain.
1. Christ means “anointed one” so One greater than himself is the Anointer. That cancels out co-equal
2. The scriptures themselves make it so clear that “the fullness of Deity/God DWELT in Christ. “It pleased the Father that in Christ all His fullness should dwell.” Col 1:19. There’s no need for another God if all of the One & Only God is dwelling in Christ manifesting Himself through His Son, doing the works. Christ said…………”the Father that lives in me does the works.” Jn 14:10 I see the One God, Yahweh.
3. With antcipation of our own transformation from glory to glory that when a fallen & lost world sees us they will see the Father just like He’s seen in the Son……….”And we, with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory are beng transformed into his likeness w/ ever increasing glory, which comes from the LORD Who is Spirit.” NIV What a PROMISE for the faithful!
And lastly….we who are filled w/ the Spirit of God are not God & if God chooses to indwell me does make Him/Yahweh a woman….”even if He’d choose to be a woman”???
God has said…”I am not a man that I should lie, neither the son of a man that He should repent.” Num 23:19
That dear Brother, is why I don’t believe Christ IS God…” I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of GOD IN CHRIST.’ Phil 3:14
Glory to GOD & Father of our Lord Yeahshua!
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/23/2012 00:53 am
TSnow I was raised from a child into adulhood on the the doctrine of the trinity. At 15 I began to have trouble w/ it but as a Catholic, you didn’t question anything w/out severe consequences. I was very obedient & submissive & wouldn’t dare question those w/ authroity over me. Not even my disfunctional, abusive parents. But that did not stop the turmoil inside.
As a Catholic, we were strongly discouraged from reading the bible as our laymen’s mind couldn’t comprehend it anyway. We were led to believe only the clergy could understand God’s word & our priest would tell us what we needed to know. The battle was on for me.
At 15 I remember walking home from catechism class after a particularly troubling teaching. I was having a one sided conversation w/ “God the Son”
when I asked him out loud…..if you’re God, knowing full well you’d be resurrected & go right back to heaven, rule from your throne after a “show” of suffering & pretending to die…because God can’t die after all…how is it that I’m suppose to believe that this was some horrible sacrifice w/ pain beyond imaging???? Where’s this sacrifice….YOU’RE GOD?!
I didn’t even have a working understanding of the Word yet but this doctrine was already troubling my logic. And yes, I know, we take it by faith not logic.
When I finally was saved, free from catholic bondage & was free to be taught fresh & study the Word to my heart’s content, I beagan to see all the many, many scriptures showing the plan of God & a Son that would be our kindman redeemer & he really would die & the ONE True God would really raise him from the dead. And Jesus really does have an inheritance because he’s not God, His Father is giving him an inheritance & we’re joint heirs w/ the Son. I began to see an intimate & intricate plan unfolding from Gen 1:1 right down to Rev 22:21
So, TSnow, it’s not that I don’t understand the doctrine of the trinity….it’s the more I’ve come to understand the Word of God, that makes it impossible to believe in such a thing.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/22/2012 23:31 pm
T SNOW, CANDACE & SCOT DALE: Here is how i assess & summarize your comments with regards to the Trinity. As I have read your various comments, I noticed that T. Snow & Scot Dale are believers of the Trinity Doctrine “Three persons in one Godhead; while Candace is not a believer of the Trinity.
I do agree with Candace that the Trinity is not only a doctrine that(MAY-on my part only since Candace seems quit sure)WAS derived from the pagans but it is a EXTRA BIBLICAL TERM & DOCTRINE! And you know the problems that comes with extra biblical terms and doctrines-these oftentimes are either too high or too low on the Standard Set by God-oftentimes these extra biblical doctrines and terms either limits or make God’s Word void.
Three person in one God/ Godhead? Do we limit God in the number of persons that composed the Godhead? Are we really sure there are only three? Or isn’t there only two person in the Godhead-the Father and the Son? Why won’t we just stick with the Bible by praying to God the Father and asking it in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord? Why won’t we just call on the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob- Jehovah/ Yahweh…so we won’t be disunited by introducing an extra biblical term and doctrine? Why should we not just stick on the Word of God?
On the other hand I just can’t understand Candace why she insist that Jesus can’t be God when I ,Scot and others had showed her the verses where Jesus is clearly seen as God although lesser than His Father( also our Father) in knowledge, power and office. Although again Scot would also not believe that Jesus is lesser than His Father!
Again why won’t we just consider the possibility that anyone one of us maybe correct in our opinions while holding on also to our opinions? Let us all just be aware of all possibilities keeping & holding it in our hearts while not discarding our own opinions-till the day when the Truth shall be clearly seen by us!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/22/2012 16:47 pm
Post #124, Candace: Let’s see… correct me if I am wrong, but you mentioned being taught, at some point, the doctrine of the Trinity - God manifesting Himself in three Persons. However, it has not yet been grasped.
It would be fruitless to continue in explanation as you have already decided it is not true in your statement, “three headed pagan god.” Only God can clarify this truth for you, and no one else. T.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/22/2012 13:54 pm
Candace, (post 119)
You said: “Why won’t anyone answer me or do we just pretend all of these and the many more that show Y’shua to be The Last Adam & The Lamb “of” God, are not really God’s Word???????
Why do we have to keep using terminology like “God the Son” & “incarnate” which aren’t even biblical terms?
How can I comfortably believe what you are demanding is truth when these things must be dealt with & are plain scripture……………help.”
The plain scriptures you present as contradictory to the deity of Christ can all be understood by the miracle of the incarnation. I’m not suggesting that this is easy to believe because if the Eternal Son of God were to become a man, what exactly does that mean? In other words; did he REALLY become a man in the person of Jesus? How does the infinite fit into the finite? How does the creator become the created?
I don’t know exactly how He did it, but when God (the Son) agreed to enter this world in full humanity, at the very least it meant that he would have to LAY ASIDE each of his divine attributes and become every bit as vulnerable as any other human being. This he CHOSE to do. This is precisely what Philippians 2:6-9 is talking about. Had he not really done this his identification with humanity would be a lie; but in so doing, Jesus was “forced” to live in total dependence on His Father via the Spirit. Surely, before he ever left heaven for earth he “counted the cost” knowing that the strong temptation to cut and run back to heaven would come upon Him the nearer He came to the Cross. However, had he done so, His mortal flesh would have had to remain behind in the dust of the earth thereby excluding ALL flesh from ever entering heaven. Indeed, the work of redemption would have ceased and ALL men would have perished.
But you and I know the end of the story, Jesus did NOT cut and run. He lived by faith; He learned obedience; He prayed; He cried; He rejoiced; He laughed; He anguished; He suffered torment and physical pain. In other words He tasted the full range of human experience because he was (is) REALLY human!
And if you can bear this just a little longer, the wonder of wonders is still ahead! Jesus, the Son of God is BACK in heaven but now he is there wearing the cloak of glorious humanity! What this means is that all of His divine attributes that He laid aside in order to come to earth as a man (omniscience, omnipotence, etc) are now back within his grasp* as not only the Son of God; but the Son of MAN as well! It is the story of God becoming a man; and a man becoming God! This is the glorious future of those of us who are counted worthy to sit WITH Him on His throne.
So, all the verses that you stumble on make perfect sense because the Son of God really DID become a man in all weakness and frailty.., but He never forgot where He came from and who His Father was!
*Footnote: I say, “within His grasp” because I personally think Jesus, the Son of MAN, has NOT yet reclaimed the fullness of His deity that he had formerly laid aside when he came to earth. The ministry of the Holy Spirit through the Church is presently the main focus of God’s plan of redemption on the earth. When the Day comes to call his Body heavenward and we are all gathered around the Throne, then we shall witness our Savior’s coronation as King of kings and he will crowned, AS A MAN, with every glory and power that He laid aside over 2000 years ago and He invites us to share it with Him!! I believe this is what’s happening in Revelation 5.
God bless you.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/22/2012 08:36 am
Does this mean I don’t get any of my questions answered?
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/22/2012 07:12 am
@ ALL - I think our answer to MUCH of this lies right here in John 1:1 itself.
Let’s break it down, take it REAL SLOW with short, one-word answers… please: no BLOGGING 15 paragraphs quoting from Psalms, Isaiah or anything else - deal?
In the beginning was the Word (Logos) or word (logos):
Two Questions:
1) To what is the ‘beginning’ referring?
2) To what or whom is the logos referring?
Let’s go real slow - short answers please!
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 20:57 pm
TSnow…which God are we suppose to become like, God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Ghost??? Is Jesus just an empty body shell that God entered into & took posession of like demons do or pagan gods are said to do???? Did Peter say “you are the “Christ” (anointed one) the “son” of the living God”? Or did Peter say you are the empty body shell the “ONE” God, who is really 3 gods, is controlling????
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 20:25 pm
Repost #122: sorry again. ….. but God put all His fullness in the body of Jesus. This is why we read, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 20:13 pm
Post #119, Candace: lets see… Jesus Christ is the “fullness of Deity” (God, Col.2:9). So in Christ, ALL THE FULLNEES of God lives in bodily form. God came to us in Jesus, to show us HOW TO get the most out of this life - that we are dependent on Him. He showed us how to pray and how to treat each other. Recall Paul’s words in Rom.8 - “Those God foreknew (all of us) He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son…” We are called to be like Jesus - in character. What are the attributes of God? They are the friut of the Spirit (Gal.5; love, joy, peace…). Once again, God created this life and then came here to show us how to live it.
Recall Jesus asked His discples, “Who do you say I am?” And Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” What Peter was saying was, “You are the fullness of the Deity,” “You are God in the body of a man.”
No, God the Father did not come down here Himself; He is Spirit. But He made all His
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 20:08 pm
Post #119, Candace: lets see… Jesus Christ is the “fullness of Deity” (God, Col.2:9). So in Christ, ALL THE FULLNEES of God lives in bodily form. God came to us in Jesus, to show us HOW TO get the most out of this life - that we are dependent on Him. He showed us how to pray and how to tr
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 19:42 pm
Tiuche….you are indeed a treasure. Such a sweet saint. Thank you. Angel….you remind me of one my most ardent bible college teachers. thanks for the refresher course.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 19:02 pm
Oh! Mr Scott…….I read & re-read every word you’ve written. Why? Because there is an eloquence, a truth & a depth that touches my spirit like few do. But there is also a dogma that I just can’t see in the scriptures. Maybe I’d be more at peace w/ this whole subject if someone out there would really be willing to anwer my questions??? But no one does. My questions are answered w/ more questions….very unsatisfying for me to say the lest.
If you are interested, just look at my most recent ones in posts 103 & 104.
Ro 3:25; (I feel in this case the NIV makes it the clearest) “For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right w/ God when they believe Jesus sacrified his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows God was being fair when He held back & did not punish those who sinned in times past.”
2 Cor 5:21; “God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so we could be made right w/ God through Christ” NIV
I just don’t see a co-equal “God the Son” here or anywhere in the scriptures where Jesus is saying the Father is greater, he can do nothing, his life was given to him from the Father, God raised him, seated him, GAVE him His Own Glory, God is giving him the throone of David & on & on & on.
Please, someone, answer why I see an obedient Son who is dependant upon &
subservient to a God & Father Who is Greater than himself…… Jesus is our high priest & mediator “between” God & us…………………..And almost lastly
Why does this “God the Son” have a God ????? I’ve listed many scriptures calling God the “God & Father” of our Lord Jesus. Most profound one is Rev 3:12 No one has anwered this yet.
Why won’t anyone answer me or do we just pretend all of these and the many more that show Y’shua to be The Last Adam & The Lamb “of” God, are not really God’s Word???????
Why do we have to keep using terminology like “God the Son” & “incarnate” which aren’t even biblical terms?
How can I comfortably believe what you are demanding is truth when these things must be dealt with & are plain scripture……………help.
I’m very logical, that’s just who I am. I can’t read these many, many scriptures & pretend they aren’t there. They MUST harmonize w/ every other verse God’s given or I can’t rest until I find out why they aren’t!
I’m sorry….I really am but I can’t just haul off & believe something some preacher shouted from the pulpit as true until I search the scriptures to see if that’s the case. I was raised up w/ the trinity doctrine. I know it well. It contradicts over & over again what I read every day in my own bible. I can’t accept that……I just can’t.
TSnow…..THANKS LIL’ BRO!
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 18:56 pm
Post #114, Candace: Didn’t realize I had misquoted you so. I wil pay more attention in the future. Your little bro
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 17:17 pm
CANDACE, SCOTT and to all
My dear brothers & Sisters
We are all guilty of not listening or reading carefully each other comments OR EVEN GOD;S WORD…may i remind all including MYSELF that:
“Hear the past a’ calling
From Armageddon’s side
When everyone’s talking and no one
Is listening
How can we decide”
-Graham.Still & Nash Daylight Again Lyric
No one seems to want to LISTEN YET Jesus said that:
Matthew 13:12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
Luke 8:18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.”
And regarding the art of listening Paul Simon sangs and warns:
And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence
“Fools”, said I, “You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you”
But my words, like silent raindrops fell
And echoed
In the wells of silence..”
Did Jesus tells us about these kind of people who seems to have forgotten the use of their ears well? Is it us or them who are unconverted?
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
So again may I remind my brothers and sisters in Christ including myself and especially those that are babes yet in the faith, our Lord and Savior said:
Luke 8:18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.”
———————————————————————————————-
“Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story”
Max Ehrman quotes
“No one is as deaf as the man who will not listen.”
Jewish Proverb quotes
source of quotes on listening: http://thinkexist.com/quotes/with/keyword/listen/
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 14:59 pm
Candace,
Thanks for the kind words but I assure you that I left no stone unturned in reading your rebuttal. Yes, we will just have to agree to disagree. I assumed it would come down to this but for what it’s worth, I feel it is you that has not “really read what I’ve written”.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 12:49 pm
Dear Mr. Scott Dale…………..after reading your eloquent rebuttal, I can see, neither have you really read what I’ve written, typos & all. That’ so hard for me because I’ve come to know a little of your thoroughness & your contemplative spirit which I so admire. I’ve answered you many, many times over & backed it all up w/ scripture.
On this, precious Brother, we just can’t agree.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 07:07 am
Angel, I really do love your heart. I also love your encouragement. Thank you for endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit Eph 4 . And TSnow, you’ve been a gentlemen always, you just have misquoted me so many times I get frustrated.
But truly, what I have to say or how I view the scriptures is only fuel & I really don’t want to debate God’s Word. I DO want to learn & that’s what I’ll keep doing but to continue to bare my innermost heart….that I can no longer do. I’m alone in this sea of trinitarians & it can be very difficult indeed.
I’ll work on growing up, more submission, turning the other cheek & loving w/ agape. But I really don’t carry anything any of you are interested in hearing or reading or embracing….whatever we do here:).
In all honesty….I’ve had moments where I have been so blessed by some of you, I’ve been moved to tears. I’ve also had moments of such frustration, I don’t really know what to do & I guess you all are stretching me & that is a good thing because you make me think & you certainly drive me to my prayer closet. If I’ve stretched any of you than I thank my Savior & pray it will continue to do so.
Love Always, In His Grip
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 06:43 am
Post #107: would like to offer a comment under Gen.2:7.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 05:54 am
Candace: after reading Scott Dale’s post, realized I may have been offensive. Please accept my apology.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 05:44 am
Post #109, Scott: First, I applaud your post 109. Thank You.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 05:40 am
CANDACE COULD YOU READ….. POSTS 107-109…..THANK YOU..
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 02:28 am
Candace,
Thanks for your reply. You have not, nor will ever, offend me. But now I risk offending you. Please tell which of the following is true:
“I know it’s taught that God became a man but that is impossible just by the nature of Who God is.” -Candace
“Is anything too hard for the Lord?” -God (Gen. 14:18)
Unless you can show why it is beneath the nature or dignity of God to become a man, how can you say it is impossible? Do you not have enough faith to believe He can do this? This should be a given. If you are not willing to concede that God can become a man if He wants to then it’s easy to see why you have interpreted the scriptures about the deity of Christ the way that you have.
But Candace, you have not defended your position against my questions. You must EXPLAIN your doctrine. These are LEGAL questions. How is it that the life of ONE man is INTRINSICALLY more valuable than the life of ALL men combined? Please tell me HOW this can be so simply by virtue of being innocent? How can ONE MAN so impress God that he should choose to turn away from His justifiable wrath?
You often say that Jesus is the Second Adam; whereas this is true, just what do YOU think it means? As a mere human, do you not know that the Second Adam has LESS intrinsic authority than the First Adam? The First Adam was the father of the ENTIRE human race. He is our “dad” Candace. How is it that the Second Adam should have MORE authority over us than our dad? Jesus never even had any children of his own. At best, he only possesses the authority of an older brother. And what about all the people that lived BEFORE Jesus was even born? How does he have authority over them in order to take responsibility for THEIR sins? If I were Satan, I think I would be wholly justified in accusing God of rigging the system. Adam gave up his dominion over the earth to Satan and now, just because Jesus remained innocent until he died Satan is supposed to just hand it all over to Jesus?? God gave dominion to the FIRST Adam and he gave it away; how is it that the Second Adam had any right to claim dominion? In fact, Jesus’ virgin birth actually EXCLUDED him from any claim to the rights of dominion because he wasn’t even in the LINEAGE of Adam!
Now, on the other hand; if the Second Adam were not merely a man but indeed God the Son incarnate, then all the arguments I have posted above would be moot because:
Someone whose blood was INTRINSICALLY more valuable than Adam died for EVERYONE’S sin and possessed the capacity to satisfy God the Father’s wrath.
Someone who not only pre-dated the First Adam but the very earth as well is eternally MORE qualified to possess dominion because of His rights of creation.
Someone who is not merely an older brother but the literal OWNER of all that IS and ever will be is FULLY qualified to be a kinsman redeemer.
So, once again, if you can, please explain how a mere man; albeit innocent, can LEGALLY accomplish all the things you attribute to Jesus unless he Himself were the eternal God (the Son).
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 01:28 am
CANDACE:
just read you were done commenting here. i am truly sorry to hear that.
and i am sorry if some were rude. we need to learn as christians to humble ourselves and look past our self egos.
we also need to look at what is being posted a little more closely and research what the other is trying to say so that we may understand each other and were we are coming from. for we may each have a piece of a puzzle to enlarge the picture for everyone here and for those who will be commenting in the future.
also from what i have read; you both are right; just coming from different angles and each having a piece of the puzzle.
like i said if we would humble ourselves we would see that the truth lies in the middle.
GOD is in heaven and is a spirit form. and yes our LORD JESUS CHRIST is the son of GOD. the ONLY son of GOD. yet indwelled in that 100% body of a man was 100% GOD. for our LORD JESUS CHRIST cannot be his own father. this is impossible. and as for the holy spirit it is in fact; the light/ logos/ spirit; that comes from GOD. its’s basically GOD in three different offices but the same GOD. it’s not a oneness, twoness, or threeness.
this is really hard to grasp for a lot of people.
also, everything on earth is a mere shadow of what is in heaven. yet is glorified in heaven for all eternity.
i am truly sorry candace. GOD BLESS YOU ON ALL YOUR JOURNEYS…..
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 01:21 am
CANDACE:
i would have to disagree on a few of your comments. for instance you say first adam was sinless and perfect.
this would be a false statement. adam was not perfect or sinless.
for instance; adam was first a spirit form then was given a clay vessel to indwell. this is a type of GOD indwelling in a human form on earth. yet GOD, our father in heaven knew eve and adam would both fall into sin. this is were GOD started his story of redemption here on earth. GOD’S spoken word was manifesting itself; but before all this GOD had already sacrificed the lamb, our LORD JESUS CHRIST.
for it was GOD who made the atonement for adam and eve. also GOD created that ram apart from the other ram and sheep that were already created. for sin had entered the garden so everything fell and GOD created the true atonement that was spotless and sinless or else GOD would of been putting sin upon sin.
also what you believe the ruach ha-kodesh to be a femine spirit is also wrong. it is a male gender. i have studied the biblical languages. being paleo, aramaic, hebrew, and greek. i have held, studied, and have translated as a means to see if the truth of what the manuscripts were saying had been altered or written to fit and to mean what someone else had desired it to say.
the hebrew language phrase ruach ha-kodesh (hebrew: רוח הקודש, “holy spirit” also transliterated ruah ha-qodesh) is a term used in the hebrew bible (tanakh) and jewish writings to refer to the spirit of YHVH. (the expression in hebrew is: יהוה .קָדְשְׁך) the hebrew term ruakh kodeshka (רוּחַ קָדְשְׁךָ, “thy holy spirit”), without the definite article, also occurs. the “holy spirit” in judaism generally refers to the divine aspect of prophecy and wisdom. it also refers to the divine force, quality, and influence of the most high GOD, over the universe or over his creatures, in its given contexts.
the term ruach hakodesh occurs once in psalm 51:11 and also twice in the book of isaiah (isaiah 63:10-11) those are the only three times that the precise phrase “ruach hakodesh” is used in the hebrew scriptures, although the noun ruach (רוח, literally “breath” or “wind”) in various combinations is used often, and the adjective kodesh (”holy”) is also used often. the noun ruach, much like the english word breath, can mean either wind or some invisible moving force.
the following are some examples of the word ruach (in reference to GOD’S “spirit”) in the hebrew scriptures:
genesis 1:2 (schocken bible - the five books of moses)
rushing-spirit of GOD hovering over the face of the waters.
1 samuel 16:13 (ASV)
“and the Spirit of Jehovah came mightily upon david from that day forward.
psalm 143:10 (KJV)
thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.
isaiah 44:3 (KJV)
i will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring.
joel 2:28 (RV)
i will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.
the first hebrew bible used for the phrase ruach hakodesh (or “holy spirit”) in psalm 51 contains a triple parallelism:
psalm 51:10-12
create in me a clean heart, O GOD; and renew a right spirit (רוּחַ נָכֹון) within me.
cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit (רוּחַ קָדְשְׁךָ) from me.
restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with a (רוּחַ נְדִיבָה) free spirit.
the other two times that ruach hakodesh occurs, in isaiah 63:
isaiah 63:10-11
but they rebelled, and grieved his holy spirit (רוּחַ קָדְשְׁךָ); therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.
then he remembered the days of old, of moses and his people, saying, where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he who put his holy spirit (רוּחַ קָדְשְׁךָ) in the midst of them?
the term is discussed in the babylonian talmud, makkot 23b and elsewhere. rabbinical use is discussed by joseph jacobs and ludwig blau in the article “holy spirit” in the jewish encyclopedia of 1911. the term ruach hakodesh (holy spirit) is found frequently in talmudic and midrashic literature. In some cases it signifies prophetic inspiration, while in others it is used as a hypostatization or a metonym for GOD. The rabbinic “holy spirit” has a certain degree of personification, but it remains, a quality belonging to GOD.
for your definition of ruach ha kodesh you used the septuagint bible and a book entitled “SOFIA SEIRAX; Wisdom of the Son of Sirach.” this is not included in the king james bible.
for instance; the masoretic text is so accurate and reliable compared to all other bibles. the dead sea scrolls and many other manuscripts discovered have verified this in every way.
the dead sea scrolls tell us that the three major textual traditions; being masoretic, septuagint, and samaritan texts; that the majority of comparison of these three traditional biblical texts is that 60% of the biblical scroll manuscripts discovered at the dead sea; the scrolls follow the masoretic text.
and only about 5% of the biblical scrolls follow the septuagint version; and another 5% match the samaritan text.
the key point; is that the readings in the scrolls; show that many variations in the biblical text are of long standing, and are not simply errors in later translations. so in other words these other bibles from all these other denominations have substituted GOD’S word for a man made belief and perception to what they believe to be as truth. therefore all the major differences between each bible have always been there and are nothing new. now this was discovered through the discovery of the complete book of isaiah.
so lets take a look at how the faithful hebrew scribes who took the task of copying GOD’S word seriously. now according to the hebrew talmud the rules of the scribe consisted of the following:
1. the skins of the parchment had to be prepared in a special way and dedicated to GOD. In order to have GOD’S words written on them they had to be clean.
2. the ink that was used was to be black and made in accordance to a special recipe used only for writing scripture.
3. the words written could not be duplicated by memory, but must be reproduced from an authentic copy which the scribe had before him. the scribe had to say each word aloud when he wrote them.
4. each time the scribe came across the hebrew word for GOD, JEHOVAH (YHWH), he had to wash his whole body before he could write it.
5. if a sheet of parchment had one mistake on it the sheet was condemned. If there were three mistakes found on any page the whole manuscript was condemned. Each scroll had to be checked within thirty days of it’s writing or it was considered unholy.
6. every word and letter was counted. If a letter or word was omitted the manuscript was condemned.
now as to the accuracy of the hebrew old testament in our day, a study was done on the 581 manuscripts out of 5,000 manuscripts of the old testament which involved 280,000,000 letters. the study concluded:
1. out of 280,000,000 letters there were 900,000 variants. although seemingly large to the reader it is only one variant in 316 words, which is 1/3 of 1%.
2. of those 900,000 variants, 750,000 pertained to spelling, whether the letter should be an I or U. this has to do with vowel points for the purpose of pronouncing the word. yet this did not change the conveyed message in anyway.
3. that leaves 150,000 variants in 280,000,000 letters. that is one variant in 1580 letters with a degree of accuracy of .0006 (6 ten thousandths).
4. most of the variants were found in just a few manuscripts; in fact, mostly in just one corrupted manuscript.
5. the earliest masoretic text is dated 900 AD. In the book of isaiah, only one three letter word was different out of the whole book of isaiah.
6. the masoretic text is the true text, because of the help of the dead seas scrolls.
now for a moment think about this; JESUS CHRIST; was neither jew nor gentile. for the seed comes from the father. and the father of our LORD JESUS CHRIST was GOD. yet this is were people become all confused. for our LORD JESUS CHRIST is a son but also he is GOD IN FLESH; 100% man and 100% GOD. we see this throughout the entire holy bible. especially in the gospels of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.
could man calm the seas, forgive sins, heal people completely (mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually), rise from the dead, walk on water, translate on earth, speak and it happened, cast away devils, create and multiply food, defeat satan at every turn; of course not; but GOD can.
it all started with abraham when GOD came down and made the covenant upon himself and abraham was the witness of this covenant that GOD made unto himself and fulfilled it knowing man would always fail GOD.
when abraham separated the 3 animals and then on the side was a dove and pigeon; that light that came between those animal carcasses was GOD confirming his covenant to man and all his creation.
in the old days; you read it throughout the holy bible; a contract or covenant was made by the two parties facing each other and in between them was the sacrificed animal torn to pieces and upon that spilled blood was made the contract or covenant valid. both made a promise and both were the witnesses.
since GOD made the covenant unto himself; since adam failed the first covenant and noah failed the second covenant unto GOD; GOD made it to himself knowing it would be fulfilled. for GOD never fails. and abraham was the witness of this covenant from GOD.
now each animal represented something; the 3 year old heifer, the 3 year old ram, and the 3 year old she goat. plus was included the dove and the pigeon. now the dove was to be pure white with no blemishes or spots. also the pigeon and the dove are the same family so this is a type of divine healing and baptism of the holy ghost.
so abraham took these three animals and cut them apart, and laid them, piece by piece. then abraham stood back. that was the sacrifice. the three clean animals; being the heifer, the she goat, and the ram. and he watched until the sun was going down.
now the heifer represented GOD’S holy living word; just as the sacrifice mentioned in numbers 19:1-22; purification of the red heifer. this is a type of sanctification through the blood and water.
as for the she goat of 3 years old; this was a type symbolizing the offering for sin; by a common person; a kinsman redeemer. the one and only ultimate sacrifice.
and as for the 3 year old ram; this was a symbol showing that GOD himself would fulfill his covenant he made unto himself. GOD was showing he would come in a man; as promised. a ram for his sheep to follow.
now also those fowls came down out of the air unto abraham’s sacrifice, vultures. and abraham cast them out. this is a type of abraham’s seed in the last day; casting out devils away from the sacrifice; our LORD JESUS CHRIST.
now notice, there come a deep sleep upon abraham: symbolizing death. during the deep sleep, abraham saw a furnace of fire; which is a symbol for hell; that every sinner should to go to. but before there went a little white light. now that white light; went in between and separated these sacrifices; GOD making a confirmation that through abraham’s seed that GOD himself would fulfill.
now with this in mine; GOD; is showing us here by these three clean sacrifices that the trinity of GOD would be represented in One in the Godhead body. GOD the father, GOD the son, and GOD the holy spirit.
and GOD was showing to abraham that through his seed that GOD himself would become flesh and then have to be separated at calvary; where our LORD JESUS CHRIST being GOD on earth; was where our LORD JESUS CHRIST was separated.
GOD tore our LORD JESUS CHRIST apart at calvary as promised to abraham. GOD; took the the royal seed of abraham, and took the life out of him and raised up the our LORD JESUS CHRIST. so to sit on his throne in heaven; and to be sent back as the holy spirit of himself upon the church of our LORD JESUS CHRIST. also the church has to have the same holy spirit that was in our LORD JESUS CHRIST to make it come together. making our LORD JESUS CHRIST the same yesterday, today, and forever.
the confirmation of the covenant was GOD separating and tearing the life from our LORD JESUS CHRIST his only begotten son. taking the spirit out of him; just as GOD cut these animals in two and stood standing between the animals. the light is and was GOD himself that went between them and showing that He separated the body of our LORD JESUS CHRIST; the royal seed of abraham. GOD took the spirit, and sent It back upon the church. and the church of today that goes to meet our LORD JESUS CHRIST will have to have the same holy spirit that he had cause it will have to be letter by letter and word by word.
and he is the word; our LORD JESUS CHRIST. for it was our LORD JESUS CHRIST who said, “he that believes in me and the works that I do shall he do also.” confirming the covenant.
also the holy bible itself is written and separated in 3 ways as well.
beginning/ fathership/ lord/ GOD in the heavens
middle/ sonship/ lord/ GOD on earth in his son as a man
ending/ holy spirit/ lord/ GOD in us
so the bible is written as LORD JESUS CHRIST.
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/20/2012 00:24 am
Indeed.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 23:55 pm
I’ve come to the conclusion it is absolutely futile & fruitless for me to even attempt to offer the truth of God’s types, antitypes, prophetic promises & fulfillments. Keep your doctrines of men, keep your three headed tiune pagan gods. I am so through.
God Bless each & everyone.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 22:57 pm
TSnow….GOD GAVE HIS SON ALL HIS GLORY. What are we to do w/ these scriptures????? Jesus was MADE a little lower than the angels. He was MADE like unto his brethren. He was born of a woman. T, really what do we do w/ these????? “I can do NOTHING, my Father does the works”. Jesus gets his life from the Father. He DIED. HE HAS A GOD. WHAT DO WE DO W/ THIS????
Read the scriptures I already gave you. Yahweh told the angels to worship His Son. The O.T. is full of Yahweh’s promise for His Son which includes worship. Yahweh GAVE him HIs/God’s Glory.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 22:51 pm
TSnow , Yahshua gives God, his Father, more GLORY than all & any of His creation ever has! We, as Christ’s body are to do the same! God does not have a body. He is Spirit. That is scripture.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 22:43 pm
# 97 TSnow, please read what I write a little more carefully. I DID NOT SAY God created Jesus in His own image.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 22:41 pm
Post #94, TIUCHE: not to stray off the topic, but just a marginal question: where do you currently attend svc’s, if I may ask?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 22:21 pm
Repost #99: in this context, no, God does not give His glory to another nor His praise to idols.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 22:06 pm
Repost #98: am having trouble phone-typing as you can see. Forgive me. But I believe what that verse means is, we are not to glorify any thing/being God has created. So once again, to worship anything/being God has created is idolatry.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 22:00 pm
Post #96, Candace: You mentioned Jesus was created in God’s own image. In all sincerity, if this is true, then once again, the worship of Him is idolatry. For it glorifies the “created” rather than the Creator. This was the reason for the verse in Isa.42 (I beli
eve). What this means is, we are
not to worship
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 21:43 pm
Post #96, Candace: You mentioned Jesus was created in God’s own image. In all sincerity, if this is true, then once again, the worship of Him is idolatry. For it glorifies the “created” rather than the Creator. This was the r eason for the verse in Isa.42.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 21:37 pm
post 75 Scott Dale. I risk offending you & that grieves me much but I will do my best to answer your comments honestly from the Word of God:)
1st & foremost Father God is not the “atonement”. He was never the one offered. He either ACCEPTS or REJECTS the offering for atonement. Just as in all the centuries the “spotless male lambs” were offered, Yahweh could either receive them or reject them. And why did they have to be spotless, perfect & male? Because they were a “type”. They weren’t God or even a “type” of God. They all represented the true Lamb of God that would one day be born, suffer & offered up to Almighty Yahweh as the final perfect scarifice once & for ALL.
Just as Y’shua fulled the day of Passover perfectly by being that docile innocent Lamb offered up to God,
He fulfilled the Feast of Unleaven Bread by being the “Manna from Heaven”. Bread from God fulling the type of manna in the wilderness.
Yahshua also perfectly fulfilled the Feast of Firstfruits. At every Passover Feast the high priest would “wave the 1st sheaves of barley” up to God & before the people to honor & thank Almighty Elohim for this crop & ALL the sheaves that would be just like this 1st sheaves of mature grain. YAHSHUA was that 1st perfect Sheave offered up to God with the promise of many more sheaves to come “just like him”. Yahweh fully & completely accepted this Firstfruit of His Son. Hence; “the Firstborn of many brethren.” Ro 8:29 where we too were foreordained & predestined…
This brings me to our KINSMAN REDEEMER: He had to be one of us, a kinsman. Only a kinsman could buy back what was lost sold or confiscated. Someone related & willing to pay whatever the cost to get it back. The book of Ruth discribes this beautifully.
For this reason he had ti be made” like his brethren in “very way”.” Heb 2:17
God “made him who had not sin….” 2 Cor5:21
“God’ presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his/Y’shua’s blood. Ro 3:25
God was not the sacrifice, the Son was.
I know it’s taught that God became a man but that is impossible just by the nature of Who God is. Indwelling His Son w/ His fullnes did not in any way change God’s nature or alter His Being. Just as His/God’s Spirit indwells the Spirit filled believer today does not make Him/God a man or make us God.
When the world sees us they really should be seeing the Father & His Son. If they are not…we are doing something very wrong.
The question: “HOW CAN A SINLESS HUMAN BEING BE LEGALLY QUALIFIED BEFORE GOD TO ATONE FOR ALL THE SINS OF EEVERYONE…?”
Yahsua was God’s plan from the beginning. Every Feast proclaims it!
We must go back to the beginning when God created Adam. God & He alone did the creating as seen in Gen 1:27; Job 9:8. Everyone always stops at Gen 1:26 where Yahweh speaks prophetically of His Son to come where we’d be “made” complete through Y’shua’s blood.
The 1st Adam was perfect in every way. Created in the image of Almighty El! He was clothed w/ the very Glory of God! Nothing was lacking. He was sinless, beautiful communed w/ God & was a son. He brought Yahweh great pleasure & God gave him everything! Just go & take dominion. Adam had free will, an incredibly wonderful & dangerous gift. When Adam chose to disobey God, he forfeited EVERYTHING.
God had a plan that played out over & over in the Feast of Passover once institued at the Exodus. And as the Israelites cried out for deliverance from their many bondages, Yahweh promised them a Messiah, anointed by Himself to deliver them. They were looking for another King David. Yahweh would give them A Son. THE LAST ADAM!
What makes Y’shua/Jesus more than “just” a man? Just as Adam was created from the dust of the earth by God’s own design, Y’shua came directly from the Ruach of God & received life just as Adam received life from God’s “Breath”. (just as the Father has life in Himself, He has granted the Son to have life in himself.” Jn 5:26) Difference: Y’shua was born of a woman to fulfill the prophecy given by Yahweh in Gen 3:15 & the covenant between Yahweh & David.
Just as Adam was sinless w/ no fallen nature, Yahshua too was born sinless. Yes, he could sin if he so desired (or the temptations would have been a farce) but for the Love of His Father & the mission he was sent to do….he would not. He did what the 1st Adam could not do & Y’shua took back the Kingdom Adam forfeited to satan. Y’shua not only saved a world by his obdeience even to the cross, he seized the Keys of hell & death & gave the dominion back to the Church his Father has given him an he will rule on the throne of David for a 1000 yrs only to give it ALL back over to Yahweh that his Father & God be ALL & ALL!!! “I Cor 15:28″
Why a man, a son? Yahweh’s plan to restore Adam/man & to give all of us a KINSMAN REDEEMER! God is not the sacrifice. He provides the sacrifice just like He did for Abraham w/ the ram in the thicket. Anoher type of our redemption to come.
Hope I’ve answered you, beloved Scott Dale.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 20:00 pm
TSnow, I think the term “lost” tribes comes from the fact the diaspora was so complete even they don’t know who they are. Of course God knows & He’ll bring them all back to the Land He gave Abraham w/ whom He made an everlasting blood covenant. It would appear those days are all bout upon us.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 18:18 pm
T Snow: I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God in those days when they preached the TRUTH!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 13:35 pm
Repost #92: meant to type that the current WWCOG, under a new name, has since left the teachings of British Israelism. And another point, that God knows right where those two Tribes are - right bdown to today.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 12:53 pm
Post #87, Candace: Am no knowledge on British Israelism, but in my own reading, a big adherent was the late Herbert Armstrong, succeeded by his son, Garner Ted. H.Armstrong, I believe, began the World Wide Church of God. He taught some strange things, B.I. being one of them. As far as I know now, the WWCOG, under new leadership, has sincee teaching of B.I. and now has taken a more biblical approach. They are under a new name (one I don’t recall at the moment. I’m sure you can find it on the internet - I did. But again, this is the belief that G.Britain and America are the descendants of the “lost” two Tribes of Ephraim & Manasseh. One point needing clarification, is the fact that NONE of the 12 Tribes were ever “lost,” for God always knew right where they all are/were. I’m not sure where the whole “lost” concept came from.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 12:45 pm
DominiK Post #88: As i see things …you have some truths in your post regarding the Illuminati & the Oligarchies…i believe your view have been taken largely from the you tube videos and the web regarding this matter and your experience..but not from the Holy Scriptures.
You see Dominik…the Illuminati who worshiped Lucifer, however their dupes may deny, it can be so subtle that they will lead you astray from the King of Books and the King of Kings…they are wise as serpents and harmful as serpents…they are like their father whom they worshiped…they almost control the medias, the governments, the churches, the banks…i’ll be posting comments here regarding them and as well as links; hope you read them…welcome to vbvbc…
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 08:50 am
Amen! And amen.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 07:18 am
Post #88 waxes eloquent but knows very little about the “true message of Jesus Christ”.
Jesus did not come to this earth to “remind” anybody of anything. He came to die for the sins of mankind and to establish his kingdom on the earth in fulfillment of the scriptures. To deny this, one must be either dreadfully ill-informed; an enemy of the Cross; or deceived.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 06:38 am
“British Israel” is a term used by the anonymous author of a brilliantly written 1970 book titled The Union Jack, to describe the manipulative efforts of elite British oligarchs (on behalf of the Rothchilds) to create a one world feudal society-controlled by British oligarchs of course-by first creating the state of Israel (via the British inspired 1917 Balfour Declaration), and then using Christian fundamentalist propagandists to promote the idea that Christ will physically return to Earth and will rule a “Kingdom of God on Earth’ for a thousand years (the ‘Millennium’) from His earthly throne in….you guessed it… Jerusalem!
The only problem is, that after million upon millions of deceived Christian fundamentalists passively give up their constitutional liberties, their country’s sovereignty, and their freedom in the mistaken belief that the Apocalypse, Armageddon and End Times scenario is an inevitable ‘prophecy’ from God that must take place before we can be delivered into the Happy world of the New Millennium, they will finally discover that they’ve been delivered into a satanic, feudal slave society that will no longer tolerate any talk of Christ or Christianity- assuming they are still alive to enjoy the ‘Kingdom of God on Earth’.
The frontline promoters and propagandists of the ‘Kingdom of God on Earth’ scenario include all the well known TV evangelical personalities like British Israel promoter John Hagee, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe, Paul & Jan Crouch of Trinity Broadcasting , Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, Robert Shuller, Jerry Falwell,, Rod Parsley, Fred Price, Kim Clement,and Kenneth Hagin among others, but their ranks are also swollen with lesser known evangelical, pro-Israel promoters who show up on UHF, cable TV, and radio stations every Sunday morning to pitch the soon-to-be-realized Great Tribulation and End Times “prophecies”. A large percentage of these televangelist employ shouting, flamboyant movements, repeated phrases, and various histrionics to pump up the emotions of the audience in order to achieve a very specific technique of brainwashing called ‘conversion’.
The Illuminated Ones play both sides of the Christianity card to manipulate the gullible into delusion. They either utilize pseudo-historians like Acharya S (The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold) to sell the idea that Christ never even existed, or they use their opposite, the fundamentalist ‘Kingdom of God on Earth’ promoters, to sell the Apocalypse/Armageddon/End Times package. Either way, the naive and gullible lose. They either lose their spiritual foundation altogether and acquiesce to the humanistic or Masonic Gnosticism ploys, or they go whole hog into cheering for Armageddon and the End Times scenario to unfold so they can “get it over with” and race into the arms of ‘Jesus’ who will greet them from His golden throne in the newly rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. These End Time ‘prophecies’ have no relationship whatsoever to the words or earthly mission of Jesus Christ. .
Sincere Christians need to recall an important statement that Christ made while on Earth. Christ said that ” My Father’s Kingdom is not of this world”. Christ was specifically rejecting the “prophecies” being promoted by a dominant Jewish sect of the day known as Pharisees. The Pharisee priests had been predicting that a Messiah would come to earth and establish a “Kingdom of God’ and rule from his throne in Jerusalem, after overthrowing the Roman oppressors who ruled Judea at the time. This is EXACTLY the same tale that the above named ‘Christian’ fundamentalist preachers are selling to multitudes of deceived people around the world. It’s Pharisee-ism plain and simple! Once this realization sinks in-and you need to remember that it was the Pharisee priests who got Pontius Pilate to condemn Christ to death- you can then begin to remove the mist from your eyes and recognize these fundamentalist ‘Christian’ propagandists for what they are– agents of the satanic British oligarchy.
Christ came to Earth to remind humanity that man is more than flesh; that man is spirit clothed within an outer vestment of flesh. Christ wanted to remind mankind that the virtues of love, honor, and forgiveness were the most important attributes to guide your daily life. Christ’s example thoroughly rejected the materialism, corruption, and deception so plainly witnessed in the lives of the above named End Times propagandists. Honest Christians need to awaken and throw out the satanic infiltrators within their midst (and in their pulpits) and return to embracing the true message of Jesus Christ. This deception is nothing short of diabolical in the extreme. Here we have Masonic con artists posing as fundamentalists evangelical ‘Christian pastors’ who are duping naive and gullible people into swallowing the British Israel End Times scheme hook, line, and sinker. As subtitled in one of the chapters from The Union Jack below states– they are “using Christians to destroy Christianity”. Truer words were never spoken.
TSnow, No I am not familiar w/ Britsh Israelism. Sounds fascinating though. I’ve always hoped I was from one of the 12 Tribes, perferring the tribe of Judah. ha. ha. I don’t know how much credence I can give any of that????
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/19/2012 00:19 am
@ Candace - thanks for sharing your story… hey, let’s go to Isa 53:5, since we’ll be ‘off-topic’ if we stay here.. see ya there!
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 20:26 pm
Post #81, Candace: Are you familiar with British Israelism - the belief that G.Britain and America are the descendants of the tribes of Ephraim & Manasseh, respectively?
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 20:02 pm
Post #81, Candace: Are you familiar with British Israelism - the belief that G.Britain and America are the descendants of th
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 19:59 pm
Post 82. Tractorman…….no I don’t subscribe to any of these & am unfamilar w/ them. I will look into them as time permits as I am curious what others are teaching. I am very aware of the “movement” to get back to our Hebraic roots but w/ that has come a whole new problem of trying to force believers back under the Law. If it’s not one ditch, it seems to be another.
No, I was raised up in the Word by a Pastor w/ a love for God’s word & a passion that his sheep learn to righty divide the scriptures line upon line & precept upon precept. He insisted we know types & antitypes & to be ready in season & out. He knew the secrets hidden in The Feasts of the LORD & helped each one find the deeper understanding by studing the languages the scriptures were written in. He taught us diligently & to never take his word for anything but go find it for ourselves & dig into God’s Word w/ fervor to show ourselves approved.
This was a non-denominational bible college & training center & I thank God I was taught as well as I was. I was so naive that I actually believed all Christians were taught this way. I soon found out that wasn’t the case.
On my own volition I began to study God’s name & why had it been removed from the bible so many centuries ago & replaced w/ LORD. In studying God’s name, I naturally wanted to understand the prophetic promise of The Son’s name. That opened a whole other kettle of worms as my Brethren are never too happy w/ me when I share any of these things. In fact I’m usually called names.
To be very honest w/ you, I can never understand that because when I was saved, crying out for truth….I was in absolute ecstasy when I began to “see” & learn!!! I had come out from the guilt ridden tyranny of the Catholic Church from birth & I could not have been more ELATED to finally find an unfolding Truth beyond what I had ever dreamed, waiting for me, buried as treasure in the pages of my bibles.
Back w/ you as I can….thank you for your concern. This is an area I really just don’t understand…..if by His stripes I WAS healed, why does this affliction threaten to take my very life?????
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 18:58 pm
@ Candace - I just read some of your earlier posts and am truly praying God will strengthen and comfort you during this time of physical trial in your life… sounds like it really takes its toll on you…
I noticed in POST #23 you mentioned the word ‘YAHSHUA’.
I did a ‘google-search’ on the word and found that it is associated with the SACRED NAME MOVEMENT…
http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/
http://www.heartofisrael.net/mdl/SacredName.htm
http://www.watchman.org/profile/yahpro.htm
Just curious if you subscribe to, at least, some of their tenets? It would help us understand better from where you are coming doctrinally.
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 13:21 pm
#76 Dear TSnow, Never have I seen a verse taken out of context as much as the one you quoted…Isaiah 42:8 about not sharing His glory w/ another.
1. I am the LORD, that is My name. First of all LORD is not His name. It should read….
“I AM Yahweh, that is My name.”
2. My glory I’ll not give to another” Yahweh is speaking of idols & other “gods”. He’ll not share His glory w/any other gods!!!
“nor My praise.” First commandment….” I Am the LORD thy God & you shalt not have any false gods before Me.
Now to the truth of this matter. God DOES give His glory to men…………
Isaiah 60:1-3 a prophetic promise for this last days Manchild Company.
” For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and deep darkness the people; but Yahweh will arise upon you & His “GLORY” will be seen upon you.”
Ex 34:30,35: “Moses face shown w/ the Shekinah of God’s glory.
Ro 8:16-17; “fellow heirs w/ Christ, provided we suffer w/ him in odrer that we may also be GLORIFIED w/ him.”
Christ in us the hope of Glory. “Jn 17:22; ” the glory Thou has given me, I have given them.” 2 Per 1:4; “that we might become partakers of his/Christ’s divine nature…”
In Heb 1:6 Yaheweh commanded His angels to worship His son. In Rev 5:12,13 both Yahweh & the Lamb receive worship.
If Y’shua is God why is he called the Last Adam? Y’shua/Jesus is not Yahweh & neither is Yahweh the Son.
Scott, I will answer you soon, I promise
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 07:18 am
Repost #79: I’ve made some typos typing on a phone. Phone-typing is rather new to me.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 06:43 am
Post #74: Those prophecies you mention, Candace, point to Christ’s Deity. The exciting about them was/is, that God was coming to earth. When He showed up in the body of Jesus, His own people (Jn.1) didn’t believe Him and conspired to put Him to death. Do you recall WHY the high priest (Ciaphas) tore his clothes at Jesus’ testimony in Mt.26:57-66? It was because Jesus had just claimed Deity - the “Son of God.” Ciaphas says, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses?”
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. FOR in Christ the FULLNESS OF THE DEITY LIVES IN BODILY FORM…” (Col.2:8-10).
If Jesus is not God in bodily form, then those prophecies have little, if any significance.
The Bible takes on a much deeper meaning, knowing who Jesus is.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 06:38 am
Post #74, Candace: You are right. We can’t throw out verses. Neither can we build our belief(s) on verses taken out here & there. We must interpret versesin the context of the whole story. Once again, God has done it all. He created everthing, He created mankind. And when man (we) rebelled against Him, He took our place
i
on the cross, shedding His own blood, that wouldn’t have to (Heb.9:12).
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 01:23 am
Repost #76: the post in question was #367 under Gen.2:7.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 01:06 am
Hi, Candace - was looking at your post under Gen.2:7. You mentioned Jesus being FULLY MAN, reconciling the the world to Himself (actually, God reconciled the world to Himself in Jesus), and Jesus being the fullness of Deity, and that God dwelt in Him. Yes! God dwelt in Jesus. Turn again if you will to Col.2:9. What this means is that Jesus Christ is due all the praise, honor, glory & majesty that belong only to God. God says, “I am the Lord; that is My name! I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols” (Isa.42:8). Now, if Jesus was/is “created,” then to worship Him is idolatry. God alone is deserving of glory and majesty. No other.
So we read that, all the fullness of the Deity (God) lives in bodily form - referring to Jesus. God made Himself visible to the world physically in Jesus. In other words, God showed His love & mercy to a wretched race, in Jesus. God, who is spirit, came into the world; but He couldn’t walk the earth AS a spirit, or, in that form. He used the physical presence of Jesus. Recall that God was pleased to have ALL His fullness dwell in Him (Jesus - reference eludes me for the moment). In the gospels, Jesus was God on earth.
In church we offer praise & adoration to who - to Jesus Christ. if He is not fully God, it is idolatry.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/18/2012 01:04 am
Candace,
Please explain how one sinless human being is LEGALLY qualified before God to atone for all the sins of everyone who EVER lived? How is it that one innocent man can intercede for MORE than one guilty man? How is it that such a man is capable of assuaging ALL the wrath of a Holy God. How is it that such a man, merely by his own death can vindicate the perfect justice and righteousness of the Eternal God? Please explain such a doctrine because even if you change Jesus into some kind of hybrid human being to me it is all shear nonsense.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/17/2012 23:19 pm
Dear TSnow, 2 Cor 5:19 “to wit, that GOD was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself/God….” I’m saying “God” through His Son, His Messiah as promised in all the prophecies, is doing the reconciling. “a Son will be given.” Isaiah 9:6 and HIS NAME will be called wonderful conselor …….. Not that the Son will be Almighty God & everlasting Father, but HIS NAME will be called those things. Y’shua/Jesus has his Father’s name.
If we get his name correct “Yahshua” than it’s easier to see his Father’s name, Yahweh. Yahshua means “Yahweh is Savior” or “Yahweh Saves”. God has saved the world through His Son, Yahshua. That’s what I’m saying.
I think there is a mindset from yrs & yrs of false teaching causing many to force the scriptures to say something they really don’t. There seems to be a need to force scripture to align w/ with men’s doctrine rather than w/ what God is telling us about His Christ/Messiah & who he is through His/God’s word.
I am deeply sorry if my words offend but wouldn’t you rather have the truth????
Scripture clearly teaches Y’shua/Jesus came as a human being to suffer & die for our sins. That he is God’s Christ/anointed one & the Lamb of God. That God raised him, gave him all His/God’s authority & His/God’s Glory & seated him on His right hand & even now in heaven, Y’shua is a glorified man restored back to what Adam & Eve were suppose to be & the promise waiting for those that come to know him & serve him are to become. Y’shua is the 1st fruit of many brethren that will be just like him….not God but sons of God.
The whole plan of God was/is to redeem us back from our fallen nature to the glorified state of Adam & Eve before they fell. That’s why we see clearly, thru scrpiture, we have a High Priest “forever” in Y’shua. He is our Mediator “the Man Christ Jesus”. And he/Y’shua has a God even now in heaven. Our God & Father is his God & Father. We can see & experience an invisable God through the MAN CHRIST JESUS, God’s only begotten Son.
I’ve given all those scriptures many times. We can’t just throw them out or ignore them. They deserve our attention so we come into the full knowledge of Christ.
With much agape…
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/17/2012 22:49 pm
Candace: in post 367 under Gen.2:7, you mentioned Jesus being FULLY man, the seedof a woman. His mother w foas a virgin. These other “verses” mentioned, regarding for example, Jesus reconciling the world TO HIMSELF, Him being the fullness of Deity, and God dwelling in Him. These “verses” actually teach the Deity of Christ. The Bible must be interpreted with the whole story in mind. The truth is, God had (and still has) compassion on a sinful race, in Jesus Christ. As has been mentioned, if Jesus is/was “created,” then to worship Him is idolatry. God hates idolatry -
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/17/2012 20:57 pm
Angel: How long have you been a believer of the Bible? How long have you studied it?And in case you don’t mind could you please tell us, how old are you?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/13/2012 11:03 am
#69 Thank you, Angel….I know what you mean about upper case. I use it too for emphasis.
If I may I would like to address the scripture that everyone seems to bring up to prove the Father & the Son are one & the same. In Jn 10:29,30 Y’shua states “the Father is greater than himself” & the Father gave him his disciples whom he loves.
And then vs 30 says…”I and the Father are one.” I am convinced that Y’shua’s Church is part of that “One” based on Y’shua’s most poigant prayer to his Father in John 17:2-23) ” neither I pray for these alone but for all that will believe on me through their word.
21) that they ALL may be One; as Thou Father art in me & I in Thee, that they ALSO may be “one” in Us…..
Verse 22: And the glory which Thou hast given me I have given “them”, that they be “one” even as we are One.
23) I IN THEM & THOU IN ME THAT THEY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE.” Oh! How I love the promise of this passage of scripture!!! Here’s my trinity in all it’s glory!!!!
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/13/2012 06:46 am
post 68….I thought we were talking about teaching the Hebrew language, with it’s nuances & gender assigned word. I agree whole heartedly. There is no private interpretation of prophecy.(2Pet 1:20) Somewhere we can endeavor to come into the unity of the Spirit ………..until we ALL come into the unity of THE FAITH.(Eph 4) My guess that means there is only one Faith. Me personally…..I can’t wait for that kind of unity amongst the Brethren
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/13/2012 06:23 am
to all:
GOD dwelled in heaven. yet GOD came down from heaven; in his son our LORD JESUS CHRIST as prophesied.
now JESUS himself said he and the father are one. and that he shall return back unto the father. so if this is true then it would be the same for us as well. this is why we are considered little god’s ourselves; once born again. for you die and take on our LORD JESUS CHRIST. you no longer exist or live in this world; but instead pass your time here as a body of JESUS CHRIST.
for we are the spoken word, we become the spoken word, and the spoken word is our life.
for is it not stated that the kingdom of heaven lives in the heart of every believer. so then GOD dwells in our heart.
for the ruach ha kodesh and the spirit of GOD; are one in the same. if you would read my link i posted; you would read this.
GOD BLESS…candace.
sorry; i type lower case due to the fact some found it offensive as if i was trying to over shadow or over power them. but there are some words i just can’t put in lower case.
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/13/2012 01:41 am
to all:
there are not many beliefs or many teachings.
there are only; one true GOD’S word, only one true teaching, and only one truth.
everything else is just dogma.
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/13/2012 01:01 am
well then….like everthing else there are 2 camps of teaching. Maybe, 3,4 or more. But a large camp that teaches Hebrew teach iesous means “the horse”. I don’t teach Hebrew & am not willing to argue this subject. Choose the camp you are confortable with & be at peace.
Yes, God is Spirit….clear scripture’ Yes, His Spirit is in all those you mentioned. But did God Himslef leave heaven & get in them or did He send His Ruach to indwell them? Everything I read about Ruach haKodesh is gramatically femimine.
Much Love, Angel
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/12/2012 22:24 pm
to all:
you say the holy spirit is not a person… this is false.
for instance; take genesis; GOD is a spirit. for GOD has no shape, no form, no beginning, and no ending. God is all and everything. this is GOD in the heavens; also GOD the father who is above us.
so when it came to making man on the 6th day of GOD’S creation; man was made in spirit form first; then a vessel of clay was made for that spirit to occupy. this is a shadow of GOD showing us that one day GOD himself who was a spirit form would indwell in a man on earth. this is GOD on earth; also GOD in a son with us; hence the name emmanuel.
just as the book of ruth. boaz is the redeemer; a kinsman. and only a kinsman can redeem us.
so GOD; became a kinsman; for all his chosen sons and daughters from genesis to revelation; by being our kinsman redeemer.
GOD has always wanted to be with his children; yet we wouldn’t allow that so GOD made a way.
GOD= father in heaven (fathership)= LORD
GOD= father on earth (sonship)= JESUS
GOD= father in us (holy spirit)= CHRIST
the name exalted above all names in heaven, earth, and hell…..LORD JESUS CHRIST. one GOD; fulfilling three different positions.
and as for your interpretation of JESUS/IESOUS/YESHUA meaning [horse] this is a false statement. just as your understanding of a female gender for; holy spirit. for you see; i study as a student; the old languages of the bible; such as paleo, aramaic, hebrew, and greek. and in all four languages JESUS/IESOUS/YESHUA all mean [saviour, deliverer, and redeemer.] this has been confirmed by many ancient manuscripts discovered in all four languages.
here is a link; http://aramaicnttruth.org/downloads/ThePathtoLife.pdf; to understanding ruach ha kodesh.
i really wish that people would realize that since the beginning GOD took his holy sacred living word and preserved it. for GOD made his holy sacred living word in every language to travel to every culture. so now no one has an excuse to deny the word and history of GOD.
also paleo, aramaic, hebrew, latin, greek, and english may all appear different in writing but the sacred meaning hasn’t changed; we as sinners change and alter GOD’S holy living word.
for instance; many people try to use the dead sea scrolls as an example of how the masoretic text is so inaccurate and unreliable.
yet the dead sea scrolls tell us that the three major textual traditions; being masoretic, septuagint, and samaritan texts; is that the majority of comparison of these three traditional biblical texts is that 60% of the biblical scroll manuscripts discovered at the dead sea; the scrolls follow the masoretic text. and only about 5% of the biblical scrolls follow the septuagint version; and another 5% match the samaritan text. the key point; is that the readings in the scrolls; show that many variations in the biblical text are of long standing, and are not simply errors in later translations. now this was discovered through the discovery of the complete book of isaiah.
so lets take a look at how the faithful hebrew scribes who took the task of copying GOD’S word seriously. now according to the hebrew talmud the rules of the scribe consisted of the following:
1. the skins of the parchment had to be prepared in a special way and dedicated to GOD. In order to have GOD’S words written on them they had to be clean.
2. the ink that was used was to be black and made in accordance to a special recipe used only for writing scripture.
3. the words written could not be duplicated by memory, but must be reproduced from an authentic copy which the scribe had before him. the scribe had to say each word aloud when he wrote them.
4. each time the scribe came across the hebrew word for GOD, JEHOVAH (YHWH), he had to wash his whole body before he could write it.
5. if a sheet of parchment had one mistake on it the sheet was condemned. If there were three mistakes found on any page the whole manuscript was condemned. Each scroll had to be checked within thirty days of it’s writing or it was considered unholy.
6. every word and letter was counted. If a letter or word was omitted the manuscript was condemned.
now as to the accuracy of the hebrew old testament in our day, a study was done on the 581 manuscripts out of 5,000 manuscripts of the old testament which involved 280,000,000 letters. the study concluded:
1. out of 280,000,000 letters there were 900,000 variants. although seemingly large to the reader it is only one variant in 316 words, which is 1/3 of 1%.
2. of those 900,000 variants, 750,000 pertained to spelling, whether the letter should be an I or U. this has to do with vowel points for the purpose of pronouncing the word. yet this did not change the conveyed message in anyway.
3. that leaves 150,000 variants in 280,000,000 letters. that is one variant in 1580 letters with a degree of accuracy of .0006 (6 ten thousandths).
4. most of the variants were found in just a few manuscripts; in fact, mostly in just one corrupted manuscript.
5. the earliest masoretic text is dated 900 AD. In the book of isaiah, only one three letter word was different out of the whole book of isaiah.
6. the masoretic text is the true text, because of the help of the dead seas scrolls.
now here is something that will blow your mind. if GOD never changes and follows his own plans, then all who saw GOD in flesh from genesis to now; all saw our lord and saviour JESUS CHRIST. for every saint has to recognize the same vessel.
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/12/2012 21:26 pm
Dearest Scott Dale…you are indeed a man of God, that I respect. Your words are like the balm of Gilead & wisdom has been planted w/in you….your foundation is indeed upon the Rock!
Words of life that edify & lift up, the very call the Church has been given by her Lord & Savior……thank you.
I have great compasion & respect for your role as the priest of your home as the spiritual head of your family. Scray indeed & one I have thanked God for many times…..that that responsiblity is not on me. As a Help Mate, a partner, I have the pleasure of entering into my prayer closet so my husband can lead us in the direction we’re to go. Am I a challenge at times……….OH YES! But he knows me & gives me much grace & together we seek the Lord’s face. Therefore I can understand & admire the awesome & difficult responsibility a husband & a father such as yourself has to bear. Scary indeed.
To answer your question….”Do I accept it…Gladly?” I do! Even though at times, many times I cry…..”that which I sould do, I do not & that which I should not do, that I do….who will deliver me from this death doomed body.”
How I have come to love you & respect the Word of God in you.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 23:30 pm
Candace,
I appreciate your honesty and openess on this matter. I do not envy you at all. I have heard that the Jewish men of old had a daily prayer that said; “Thank you G-d for not making me a woman.” It’s not hard for me to believe that this continues in some fashion even today. But while men and Satan continue to spread this lie, it was not so at the beginning; therefore, this is NOT the view of God toward you.
However, it is true that you as a woman are to LEARN submission even as Christ did. It could well be said of you;
“The attitude of women should be the same as that of Candace: Who, being in the very nature of Adam, did not consider equality with men something to be grasped, but made herself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a woman, she humbled herself and became obedient to death.”
You, as a woman, are equal to man in everyway EXCEPT in the domain of spiritual authority. But this is a God-appointed position for your good! Your spiritual fulfillment will be realized withIN this context; not outside of it. There are, of course, physical and emotional differences between the sexes but these have nothing to do with value or equality. In many respects women are far more intuitive than men but even this gifting will produce strife if not submitted to the Spirit of God. Learning Godly submission to your husband and in the church must be a dreadful challenge; but nonetheless, in general, it is the will of God for you and He will show himself faithful to the degree that you willingly submit.
Of course, your burden is not unique. I, as a man, have to learn submission also. Oh, how I wish sometimes I could just give the spiritual reins of our household to somebody else. But, alas, this is the will of God for men and it can be terrifyingly scarey!
So imagine Jesus in whom all the fullness of deity dwelt; who possessed equality with God; who commanded legions of angels, laying aside all these things in order to learn obedience (submission) through the things He suffered. Is it any wonder that in the very same epistle Paul should go on to say;
“I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of SHARING IN HIS SUFFERINGS, BECOMING LIKE HIM IN HIS DEATH, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.”
There is GREAT reward for those who learn this truth. Praise God that you are in the classroom of His instruction. Do you accept it.., gladly?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 22:39 pm
Dear Mr Scott, Oh, how much I would desire to walk w/ you. In a perfect world, maybe, a woman is equal to a man. But in the real world that just is not so. And it’s definitely a good part of the curse due to the fall.
Gen 3:16; “I will greatly increase your pain…..and your desire will be for your husband & he will rule over you.”
I Tim 2:11-15; “let a woman learn in silence w/all submission. Do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man”…..Adam was formed 1st. It was the woman that was decieved.
I Cor 14:34.35; be silent in church………
Eph 5:22-26; “husbands love your wives, wives submit….” Women are not told to love but to learn submission
I Cor 11:3; Eph 5:3; the head of the woman is the man
As a woman in a man’s world, I know all too well my limitations & my place. Be it in the workforce or in ministry, I am not allowed the same privileges no matter how much the women’s liberation rights might like us to think.
I often cry out to God, as I often do, and ask………why have You given me such gifts of passsion. boldness & a call to preach & exhort when few is the man that will even listen??? It’s a diffuclt thing to be ever rebuked & put in my place by pastors, brethren, men in general because I am a woman.
A passion burns w/in my very core & it crys to be heard but I am a woman after all & it just isn’t my place to even try to “teach” a man anything. I can only resign myself to my place, squelch my spirit & all it’s passion, try to find that quiet spirit of meekness & w/ humility, offer what I “think” God may or may not have revealed to me.
Maybe this forum is a release valve for the passion of truth that burns deep down in my very being. I thank you all for the opportunity to let it out lest I blow like a volcano!
In His Grip…you are loved.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 20:03 pm
#56 Tractorman.”can’t do “No” more” means I am physically & mentally unable to take another step. I don’t expect you to understand & that’s unimportant.
But I must address your last comments to me in post 56. You have said that you are a student of the languages but I’m having a bit of a problem w/ that. If indeed you have a good working understanding of Hebrew then of course you know words are assigned a gender. i.e. wisdom is female as is Ruach haKodesh/H.S.. With your logic that would make the “3rd person” female. Pneuma is gender neutral etc.
Now about this “3rd person”, Tiuche has it right about the working of a human spirit doesn’t make each manifestation another person but part of the mind & heart of that indiviual.
THE HOLY SPIRIT is:
poured out Acts 2:17,33
It’s a gift. Acts 10:45; I Tim 4:14
It’s shed. Axts 2:33
We’re batized w/ it. Matt 3:11
Can be drank. Jn 7:37-39
You partake of it. Heb 6:4
It’s must be stirred up w/in us. 2 Tim 1:6
It’s a promise & our earnest/ engagement promise. Eph 1:14
It’s wind. Acts 2:2
It’s fire. vs 3
It’s water. Jn 4:14; 7:37-39
It’s oil. Ps 45:7; Acts 10:38; Matt 25:1-10
Its our downpayment. 2 Cor 1:22; 5:5; Eph 1:13-14
The Ruach hsKodesh is “synonymous w/ the “HAND” & “FINGER” of Elohim. (Ezk 3:14; Job 26:13; Ps 8:3; Lk 11:20
The H.S. overshadowed Mary, yet Y’shua insists on calling the “1st person” of a triune god, his Father. If your logic is correct, the “3rd person” of this 3 headed god is his Father. Why doesn’t Y’shua know this?????
I see nowhere in scripture that “THE SACRED BREATH” is my Father but by that same Spirit , I can cry Abba, Father! Ro 8:15
Your doctine is faulty. If indeed you understand Hebrew, you’d be very aware there is NO concept of a triune god in all Torah or Tanakh. For the Jew, that is polytheism. You would also know that in Jn 1:1, the word was “a god”. Not a person. Not, until the word was made flesh.
You would also know the Greek name Jesus/Iesous means horse in Hebrew. He has his Father’s name “YAH” YHWEH IS GOD ALMIGHTY! Yah-shua means Yah Saves! Only one attribute of the Might EL! I AM that I AM Yahweh is so much more!
I’m so sorry that you swallowed the doctrines & creeds of men hook, line & sinker but Goebbels, Hitler’s chancellor, said it best……”tell a big enough lie long enough & the people will believe it”.
Oh, by the way…..I’m not J.W. or Mormon or Unitrarian or Christadelphian or espouse to any of those man-created denominations filled w/ their false doctrines. I am the “Ekklesia”, called according to His purposes.
And for your comment about “Cults”, I quote scripture: “if you don’t believe that Yeshua the Messiah came as a human being from God…..this is the spirit of Anti-Messiah/Christ.” I Jn 4 CJB
Tractorman. I want you to know , I really do bring this in the heart of peace & love.
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 19:11 pm
Tractorman: I do agree with you that God the Father & Jesus Christ is God and that they are distinct persons but I do not agree with you that the Holy Spirit of God which reveals His Mind is a person.
1 Corinthian 2: 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
John 6:63 The Words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life…
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The Holy Spirit is not a person….it His Holy thoughts in action…begetting us, guiding us into all truths…appearing in our foreheads us FIERY TONGUES…to enable us to deliver His Perfect Words-the tools by which thoughts are formed!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 17:45 pm
@ Tiuche - I think you are making a ‘category error’ by equating “God’s spirit” as just another way of saying “Holy Spirit” -
As a saved man, I have a body, a soul and spirit
I also possess the indwelling Holy Spirit? Are my spirit and the Holy Spirit the the same? No!
I believe I have given AMPLE evidence that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT PERSONAGES, each called God, yet One…
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 17:14 pm
Tractorman: It still isn’t clear!
Does God the Father has a spirit as man has a spirit in him?
The answer of course is yes God the Father has a spirit! Is His spirit holy? The answer: yes that spirit is holy!
What then is the difference between the holy spirit which is in God to the Holy Spirit which you claim is one of the person of the extra biblical TRINITY?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 15:35 pm
@ Tiuche - I ‘hear you’ but I think you might be setting up a false comparison here:
Tiuche wrote: My heart is grieved….the Holy spirit is grieved…my heart suffered me not to continue…the Holy spirit suffered them not to…
Tractorman responds: 1) In your analogy, especially ‘my heart suffered me not to continue’ vs ‘the Holy Spirit suffered them not to’ - please notice though that one is an INTERNAL ‘check’ and the other is an EXTERNAL ‘check’… one was your own heart; the other came from the OUTSIDE which is EXACTLY what happened with Paul being forbidden to go into Asia.
If however you are equating the Holy Spirit (both CAPS) with God’s heart, I think this comparison will NOT stand the test of scripture, most notably with the Great Commission:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (SINGULAR) of the Father (distinct Personage - definite article THE is present), and of the Son (ditto), and of the Holy Ghost (ditto)…
If we were to read it your way, it would go like this:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of my heart…
Look also at John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come
Would we also read the following as such??: Howbeit when my Father’s heart, the Spirit of truth, is come, my Father’s heart will guide you into all truth: for my Father’s heart shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever my Father’s heart shall hear, [that] shall my Father’s heart speak: and my Father’s heart will shew you things to come…
Or how about this from John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you
Should we now read it as follows: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away (to my Father): for if I go not away, my Father’s heart will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send my Father’s heart unto you…
I think ANYONE would be hard-pressed to make the case - no, the Holy Spirit is a PERSON with a WILL, a ministry, a purpose, etc…
Tiuche wrote: satan tries to lie/ deceive my heart…Ananias tries to lie against the Holy Spirit….all of these do not make my heart a person nor does that make the Holy spirit a person.
Tractorman responds: Again, I think you’ve ‘poisoned the well’ by setting up the argument to prove your point but only tells PART of the story but not ALL of it… and please understand, I am NOT saying that comprehending all the nuances of the TRINITY are EASY, but the scriptures are quite clear that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are distinct and individual Persons, each called God, yet one.
Tiuche wrote: Is the spirit which is in man a person? Is the Holy Spirit which is in God a person? What is a person anyway?
Tractorman responds: When a man’s spirit leaves the body, the body dies… so is my ‘personality’ in my ’spirit’ or in my ‘body’..?? Appears that the REAL ME is my soul/spirit, although one day the body will be redeemed…
Now when we talk about God, I think the logic breaks down, becuase God the Father would NOT cease to exist if the Holy Spirit was no longer ‘in Him’ - mainly because they are distinct Persons to begin with! God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are NOT ‘parts of God’ but are distinct Personages within the Godhead…
Hope this helps…
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 15:26 pm
Tractorman,may i interject for Candace: My heart is grieved….the Holy spirit is grieved…my heart suffered me not to continue…the Holy spirit suffered them not to… satan tries to lie/ deceive my heart…Ananias tries to lie against the Holy Spirit….all of these do not make my heart a person nor does that make the Holy spirit a person.
Is the spirit which is in man a person? Is the Holy Spirit which is in God a person?
What is a person anyway?
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/11/2012 12:18 pm
@ Candace - Can’t do no more indeed…
Candace wrote: An exciting word phrase used time & time again for the Holy Spirit in Hebrew is Ruach haKodesh. It means Sacred Breath. Not a person. An action, power, agent sent by God. If you do a study on this alone I think you’ll find it exhilarating!
Tractorman responds: Yes Candace, I don’t know if you know this or not, but I study from the original languages… I think if you read my commentaries, you would see that I try to be VERY CAREFUL and ACCURATE in my words…
Holy Spirit NOT a Person?… Candace, Candace, Candace…
The Holy Spirit is indeed a Person Who can be grieved:
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you were sealed for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)…
The Holy Spirit speaks and commands as a Person:
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them (Acts 13:2)
The Holy Spirit FORBIDS as a Person:
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, after they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not (Acts 16:6-7)
The Holy Spirit is GOD
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3-4)
Pressing on…
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 21:32 pm
Tractorman. I will engage when my “passion” is restored. For now I can not. But allow me to leave you something…..I’ve said it before & it is true. It sheds so much light on this “3rd person” that raised Jesus from the dead & so much more. I think we owe it ourselves to look a little further into the Scriptures & read them in the original languages they were written. Hebrew & Greek are very colorful & picturesque languages & often there isn’t a suitable word to convey what is meant in English. An exciting word phrase used time & time again for the Holy Spirit in Hebrew is Ruach haKodesh. It means Sacred Breath. Not a person. An action, power, agent sent by God. If you do a study on this alone I think you’ll find it exhilarating!
Can’t do “no” more. God Bless
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 20:12 pm
#51 Dearest Tiuche, that’s one of the best explainations I’ve heard yet:) Christ being “God” is better stated “a god” as in having authorty given by God Almighty(Matt 28:18) as were the angels, the judges of the O.T. & Moses. For me that better agrees & aligns with Scripture. (Jn 10:34-36)”I said ye are gods”.
My issue is with the 1600 yr old Catholic doctrine of of a co-equal, co-eternal, all knowing etc. 3 persons in one God when everywhere I read in my bible, that just isn’t so. I’ll always stand on God’s Word over traditions & doctrines of men & by refusing to align myself to this doctrine, I’ve been blasted more than you can know.
All I can say is if The Anointed One/Christ is God than God died. And if he/Jesus was/is God why did he continually refer to himself as the Son of Man? And if he was/is God why did he say “the Father has given life to the Son.” (Jn 5:26) the Father is greater than the son; I can do nothing on my own; only the Father knows; I speak only what I hear the Father speak; I do only what I see the Father do.
Jesus is our mediator & high priest between us & God. God is not His own High Priest nor is there a mediator w/out “the man Christ Jesus ” as our go between.(I Tim 2:5) I have said before & I’ll conti to say it…………….I revere Yeshua as the only begotten Son of God. He was born w/out the sin nature we’ve all inherited from the fall. Y’shua was/is sinless & he came to restore us back to God’s original plan for His children
Yeshua gave us a glimpse of what we can have if we remain obedient thru faith….when he manifested himdelft to his 3 disciples o the Mt of Tranfiguration. That’s what’s wating for the “overcomer”!
Ive been attacked & called more names than you can possibly know & for that I am deeply grieved. I would that we could all stand on Eph 4 “endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit….until we ALL come into the unity of the FAith.”
But i must continue to stand to stand on what I know the scriptures say………”Hear O Israel, The LORD/Yahweh our God, the LORD/Yahweh is One!” Deut 6:4
Thank you again, Tiuche & God Bless:)
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 19:51 pm
The “Head” of someone does NOT necessarily make them greater in ESSENCE, only in POSITION.
If you are under my authority, does that make you LESS than me in your HUMANITY? Not at all! This is the picture of Eve being riven from the side of Adam and is true of every woman today! Candace, do you REALLY think you are essentially LESS than me and TSnow because you are a woman? (Woe to your husband if he treats you this way!).
If I choose to place myself under YOUR authority, does that make me less than you in my humanity? Not at all! This is the very picture of Christ in Philippians 2:6-7 and Col. 2:9!
The mystery of God’s Son becoming a man is indeed difficult to comprehend; but which miracle of God is NOT hard to comprehend. The incarnation of the Son of God is REAL.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 13:45 pm
@ Candace - I REALLY love your passion… it’s not too often we find men or women who truly enjoy the ‘iron sharpening iron’ process, so kudos to you on that front…
Candace wrote: Nowhere in the bible can we find “the Deity of Christ”.
Tractorman responds: Gotta be real careful trying to make an argument by saying the Bible doesn’t contain the phrase “XYZ”. The EXACT words may not be there, but we ALSO don’t find the phrase ‘Second Coming of Christ’, ‘Rapture’, or your favorite - ‘Trinity’ in the Bible either, but the concepts are there - and these words are simply used.
Verses for the ‘Deity of Christ’:
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20 ESV)
The pronoun ‘He’ would refer of course to its nearest noun, in this case Jesus - in fact, the WHOLE verse is all about Jesus.
Also, who is speaking in Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12 when He refers to Himself as the “First and the Last”? It’s Jehovah God.
Who is speaking in Rev 1:11, 1:17, 2:8 and 22:13 referring to Himself as the “First and the Last”? It’s Jesus - Jesus IS Jehovah.
AND TO DEMONSTRATE that point further, the religious leaders VERY CLEARLY understood EXACTLY what was saying “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) when they picked up stones to throw at Him… let’s listen in on the conversation…
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God… not ‘a’ god, but none other than Jehovah Himself.
I could go on and on - I would STRONGLY encourage you to get a hold of some good, solid SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY books which go in depth on this subject
Candace wrote: And if Yahweh anointed Yeshaua as “His” Christ (Rev 12:10: the kingdom of God & the power of HIS CHRIST) doesn’t that make Yeshua less than Yahweh? Definitely not co-equal. Yeshua/Jesus died & God raised him. Definitely not co-eternal until God, His Father GAVE him immortality by rasing him from the dead.
Tractorman responds: No, it does NOT make Jesus LESS ‘than Yahweh’. You actually were on the RIGHT track when you mentioned 1 Cor 11:3 - “but I would have you know the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
What you have here, Candace, is a VOLUNTARY HIERARCHICAL SUBMISSION WITHIN THE GODHEAD. One God - three Persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Each is called God in the Bible. This analogy I’m about to give SORT OF makes the point - on a football team, let’s pick the Denver Broncos, you have different players with different responsibilities, but NO player is MORE of a Bronco than another, but they DO have different areas of responsibility - same with the Godhead - neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit TENTED themselves in human flesh (John 1:14) and died for your sins…
But it IS interesting that ALL THREE took part in the RESURRECTION of Jesus…
The FATHER raised up Jesus: Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) (Gal 1:1)
JESUS said He would raise Himself: Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (John 2:19)
The HOLY SPIRIT raised up Jesus: But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” (Romans 8:11) and ALSO: “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit…” (1 Peter 3:18)
Candace wrote: My question is…”if Christ/Jesus/Yeshus is God Why does he have a God?”…Paul seems to think Jesus has a God.
Tractorman responds: Because Jesus is ALSO fully HUMAN and our example to follow… and as you pointed out in 1 Cor 11:3, there is a DIVINE PECKING ORDER within the Godhead… in fact, right now, things are SORT OF ‘out of whack’ in a sense because Jesus said that ALL JUDGMENT has been given to Him (John 5:22), but one day the DIVINE ORDER will be restored (1 Cor 15:24-28)
Candace wrote: but I’m really trying to understand why we have to have 2 gods or 3 even when the Son is clearly not God but is His perfect Image so Jesus can say…”if you have seen me you have seen the Father.”
Tractorman responds: The concept of the Triune God is no doubt NOT an easy concept to wrap our brains around as our predisposition for Greek-thinking linear logic does not allow for apparent paradox (although Jewish logic does!) So also is the TENSION between God’s Sovereign Election and human responsibility (but that is a different kettle of fish for another time).
Detractors have stated that 1 God + 1 God + 1 God = 3 Gods (Mormon, JW’s, etc) - advocates have countered with 1 God x 1 God x 1 God = 1 God - others have advocated MODALISM (1 God but wears different hats at different times), but it all no doubt falls extremely short…
The Bible simply reveals that each is called God… notice also in the GREAT COMMISSION that Jesus says to ‘baptize them in the NAME (singular) (not NAMES) of THE Father (definite article present), THE Son (definite article) and THE Spirit(definite article). They are three separate and equal Persons yet one.
Notice also when it comes to the Person of Jesus that He existed before He was born in Bethlehem: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was (John 17:5)… this is NOT some glory that God had in His mind. This is a direct statement that Jesus existed in glory, with glory before Bethlehem.
Candace wrote: but how many of us really walk in that kind of sold out, holy & committed walk? Eph 3:19
Tractorman responds: Candace, that is the RIGHT question! I pray we ALL would do so… (1 John 2:6)
Candace wrote: Please don’t quote me Jn 1:1 again. It’s God’s word that was made flesh in the fullnes of time. Jesus was not the the living breathing Word of God until he was born of a virgin & walked among us. “made like unto his brethren in everyway.” (Heb 2:17)
Tractorman responds: Have to quote John 1:1 because your concept and understanding of the Greek is NOT correct - once again, I do not know what books you are reading, but your BIBLICAL HERMANEUTIC has gone off course…
Let’s break this verse down:
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD: Well, the FIRST question is - in the beginning of WHAT ???… is this referring to eternity past or the manger in Bethlehem? Well, I think if we follow the text and read down to verse 14, we THEN see that this Word TENTED Himself in human flesh… and many scholars have noted the parallels between John 1:1 and GENESIS 1:1 that the phrase ‘in the beginning’ refers to eternity past. This is NOT wishful thinking, scripture-twisting, traditions of men, KJV text, or relics of paganism that the Catholic Church taught in the 4th century… this is BIBLE!
So, in the beginning was the Word - the New Testment, contrary to SOME MESSIANIC Jewish commentators, was NOT written in Hebrew but in GREEK… it does NOT read: In the beginning was the TORAH - total BALONEY and FABRICATION… it reads: In the beginning was the LOGOS - the full expression… hmmm, so we have this ‘full expression’ that was ‘in the beginning’…
AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD: okay, marching on, now we have that this ‘full expression’ was WITH God…
AND THE WORD WAS GOD: Ah, now we have MORE information that this ‘full expression was ‘in the beginning’, ‘was with God’ and now, ‘was God’…. and incidently, there is NO DEFINITE ARTICLE before God… this actually denotes the phrase ‘BY NATURE’, so it could be read contrary to Jehovah’s Witnesses who have translated it: “and the Word was a God” - No! That’s NOT right - it would MORE accurately read: ‘and the Logos by His very nature was God’…. but I digress….
So NOW we read that this ‘Word’ was a PERSON… not an idea or a principle, but a PERSON. This Logos was ‘in the beginning’, this Logos was ‘WITH God’ (implying a distinction from as well) and NOW we find out this LOGOS ‘WAS GOD’.
If ONLY the FATHER is God, then John 1:1 doesn’t make a lot of sense, for it would read: ‘In the beginning was the Logos (Father), and the Father was with the Father, and the Father was God…
And of course because we ARE good Bible students, we don’t JUST take one Bible verse, we keep reading down to verse 14 which TELLS US that the LOGOS tented Himself in human flesh, so now we can read John 1:1 as follows:
In the beginning was the Logos (Jesus), and Jesus was with God (the Father), and Jesus was by His very nature God…
Once again, this is NOT wishful thinking, Catholic tradition, the traditions of men, KJV commentary, or whatever… this is ORTHODOX, HISTORIC CHRISTIAN FAITH….
If Jesus is simply some form of EXALTED MAN, then our god is TOO SMALL… Jesus is NO ONE LESS than God Almighty, fully God, fully man…
Mark my words - one of the signs of a cult is the DENIAL of the Eternal Deity of Christ - to Mormons, Jesus BECAME a god through his faith, obedience and good works, to JW’s, Jesus is a LESSER being, none other than Michael the Archangel…
Another sign of a cult is the DENIAL of the TRINITY - Mormons and JW’s both DENY this HISTORIC Christian doctrine…
Thank you for allowing me to comment, Candace - like I said - I appreciate your HUNGER for the Word of God - but the DEITY OF CHRIST is an ESSENTIAL of the Christian Faith to be VIGOROUSLY DEFENDED, right along with the Virgin Birth, the Vicarious Atonement, and others…
By
Tractorman
(wrote 3584 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 13:28 pm
Candace: You asked: ”if Christ/Jesus/Yeshus is God Why does he have a God?”
Answer: Jesus Christ is our God because we are lower than Him…in the same sense that His Father His God (our Father our God) is His God because Christ is the Mighty God while His Father is the ALMIGHTY GOD! Yet they are ONE in the same sense that we are ONE with them as Jesus prayed we will be one with them. In fact we also are gods but smaller ones…and we die…as Jesus died!
But Jesus was a special ONE for He did not have any sin like we have…so Jesus is our Mighty God-our Lord and His Father our Almighty God!
I think it is just a matter of seeing it all at all angles…or putting ourselves in the viewing place of everyone…if one persist on just holding his own position he/ she won’t be able to see the angle from which others are seeing these things…so we as Saints of God should with all the Saints..
Ephesian 3:
18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 11:50 am
posts 48 & 49. I’m not sure if I can finish this but I will try. I guess I am unable to communicate my dilema w/ any amount of clarity. I will try once again & if my question still can not be answered, I’ll just leave you sweet guys at peace.
Back to “the Deity of Christ”. That is an oxymoron. The title Chirst or Messiah translates “Anointed One”. Nowhere in the bible can we find “the Deity of Christ”. We can only find “the fullness of Deity/God dwelt in him/Christ.” Isn’t the Anointed separate from the Anointer. And if Yahweh anointed Yeshaua as “His” Christ (Rev 12:10: the kingdom of God & the power of HIS CHRIST) doesn’t that make Yeshua less than Yahweh? Definitely not co-equal. Yeshua/Jesus died & God raised him. Definitely not co-eternal until God, His Father GAVE him immortality by rasing him from the dead.
I think this says it quite clearly….I Cor 11:3; “but I would have you know the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” God is greater than His Son.
My question is…”if Christ/Jesus/Yeshus is God Why does he have a God?”
Rev 3:12 says….Yeshua/Jesus speaking; “……I will make a pillar in the temple of “my” God & he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of “my” God and the name of the city of “my” God, which is New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from “my” God, and I will write upon him my new name.”
Also, in discribing the wife of the Lamb, New Jerusalem…it will need no sun nor moon for God is the light of it and it’s “lamp” is the Lamb”.(Rev 21:23) Although the KJV makes God lighten it & the Lamb the light. Every other translation says the Lamb is the lamp. The LIGHT is geater than the lamp.
My question again is; “if Jesus is God, why does he have a God?” Ps 22:1; Mk 15:34; Matt 27:46
And why do so many of Paul’s epistles begin with this greeting; “the God & Father of our Lord Jesus the Christ?
2 Cor 1:3 Col 1:3 I Pet 1:3 Eph 1:3
Gal 1:3 Ro 15:6 2 Thess 1:1 Ro 1:7
Paul seems to think Jesus has a God.
If I frustate you precious ones, I am so sorry, but I’m really trying to understand why we have to have 2 gods or 3 even when the Son is clearly not God but is His perfect Image so Jesus can say…”if you have seen me you have seen the Father.” And we too are filled w/ that Same Spirit/God that raised Jesus from the dead. To see us is to see the Father & the Son but how many of us really walk in that kind of sold out, holy & committed walk? Eph 3:19
Please don’t quote me Jn 1:1 again. It’s God’s word that was made flesh in the fullnes of time. Jesus was not the the living breathing Word of God until he was born of a virgin & walked among us. “made like unto his brethren in everyway.” (Heb 2:17)
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 08:32 am
TSnow,
I like very much the way you have expressed things in post #48. I get a picture of Adam and Eve as a (very limited) type. When God made Eve, she was obviously not the creation (offspring) of Adam but rather “fashioned” of/from the ESSENCE of Adam. In all things, Eve is Adam’s equal and though her role as wife is different; Adam is NOT greater than Eve. She was made from the very same lump of dust as Adam; not a separate lump. Eve is literally “bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh” WITHOUT being his generated offspring. Eve was literally “in Adam” from the very beginning.
It’s a curious thought that Adam and Eve were essentially “one” before Eve was fashioned from his rib and then the two became “one” again through the covenant of marriage. Two personalities but one essence. No other two people in all of humanity have ever been so uniquely related.
In one sense, it’s harder to believe that a woman came out of a man than it is to believe that Jesus is Deity.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 05:44 am
Post #47, Candace: Are you wondering along these lines, “How could God be in heaven AND on earth?” What happened was, God made Himself visible to the world in the physical body of Jesus. But He never ceased being God, for Scripture tells us that in Christ “all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” [Col.2:9].
As we have already seen, John tells us that, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning” [1:1-2].
Here, we can see that the Word was God. In v.14, the Word, which was God, became flesh - (God made Himself visible to the world physically in Jesus).
Recall further, when Christ returns to the earth with the armies of heaven, “He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is the Word of God” [Rev.19:13].
God says, “I am the LORD; that is My name! I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols” [Isa.42:8]. We praise, honor and glorify Jesus Christ because, He is … God.
Jesus is not a created being. If He is, then the worship of Him is idolatry [Rom.1:25].
When you received Jesus as Savior, you received ALL of Him [Col.2:10]. Therefore, God lives in you through thr presence of His Holy Spirit. You received all the power you need to live the life to which you’ve been called - the moment you were saved.
By
TSnow
(wrote 285 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2012 03:08 am
#45 TSnow No, my question IS NOT “why does Jesus have a “Father”.”……it’s “Why does he have a “GOD” even now in Heaven???? If Y’shua ceased being God when he “came” to earth, why didnd’t he ever resume BEING God when he returned???? As if God could ever cease being God. He never changes(Mal 3:6) & He’s not a man that He should lie.(Num 23:19) That’s the question no one wants to answer.
I KNOW why Jesus has a Father!
Thanks for the encouragement. Don’t be concerned…just something I must battle on a daily bases & I guess what doen’t kill you makes you stronger?????
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/9/2012 23:02 pm
Post #43, Candace: I don’t feel ignored. Further, I don’t know the details of your circumstance[s]. But suffering equips us to be used. “God does not call the qualified; He qualifies the called.”
Post #43, Candace: This forum isn’t going anywhere, hope you’re feeling better soon. Your question[s] - “Why does Jesus have a Father?” I believe God created this life. He came here, taking the form of a servant [Phil.2], to redeem sinful mankind, but also to show us how to get the most out of this life.
Surely, I am no theologian by any stretch of the imagination. But I do believe, in the O.T. God dealt with man through the prophets. He was rejected [1Sam.8]. Then, in the Gospels, He took the form of a servant [Phil.2:6-7]. Again, He was rejected [Lk.23]. Now, His presence on earth is in the church - every believer is indwelt by God’s Holy Spirit [Eph.2:22]. The only way God can show Himself to the world is through the Body of Christ - the church - us.
Yes, God is Spirit. But He couldn’t walk the earth as a Spirit. He needed a physical form - Jesus. But still, God.
So, there is one God over all; existing eternally in 3 Persons; Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Note: I’m on the road 24/7 with a trucking company, So I don’t get on the internet a lot. Have been at a truck stop in OKC,OK over this weekend. But we’ll be leaving today - we hope. I;ll get back here when I can. T.
THE WORD BEFORE GOD?
“In the beginning was the Word”…….the Word was before God?Is the God here Elohim (plural Gods) or God the Father?
“And the Word was with God”……..the Word which was before God the Elohim/God the Father now with God?
“And the Word was God”….the Word BECOMES GOD? Is the Word now at some point in time the God of the Gods(Elohim or Father) now?
John 1: 2″ The same was in the beginning with God.”- who was this “the same”? Was “the same” different at first from the Word or is “the same”one of the Gods (Elohim which was ONE LORD?) We know that “the same” in this verse refers to Jesus Christ (or Yeshua the Messiah), for in the next verses it is written:
John 1:
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The WORD WHICH WAS GOD now made a reality for us-Emmanuel (meaning God with us)…this alone points that Jesus was God and that the world was made by Him (verse 10)…could an ordinary man be without sin? Could an ordinary man make the world? Though JESUS is the beginning of the creation of God, yet Jesus Himself made the World…the Elohim/ The Father? (the Gods or the sons of God which was ONE LORD) made men in their image now sending Jesus Christ the spokesman the one alone worthy to received the glory into them whom they made in their image to give this creatures a chance to become like them…to become sons of God-millions/ billions of gods -ONE IN THE WORD-ONE IN JESUS-ONE WITH THE FATHER! Remember the highest name of God is His Word!
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11… Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/9/2012 11:02 am
post 376 & 379. TSnow.. I want to express my tnankfulness for the tenderness of spirit I preceive in your post. Your words are a comfort in these difficult times & words I have rarely encountered in this forum. I embrace them.
As to your explaination of The Deity of Christ…
Oh, please forgive me. I can not go on at this time. I want to desperately…..but alas I am unable. I will answer you & I look forward to it. But for now, I physically can not. I have no way of knowing how long it will be. Just know, I’m not ignoring you.
In His Grip
By
Candace
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/9/2012 07:03 am
Post #379 under Gen.2:7, Candace: Please accept my apology regarding the comment of Rom.12:3. In post #374 I believe, under Gen.2:7, you mentioned 1Jn.2:22. The point John is here making, is that God has come to us physically in Jesus Christ; that this is the truth from the beginning. That the teaching of Jesus not being God in flesh is simply not true.
John’s words parallel those of Paul in Col.2:8-10 > to not be led astray by those who teach God has not appeared physically in Christ.
Looking once again at 1Tim.3:16, the KJV reads that “God was manifest in the flesh…” “Manifest” means to make visible. A few synonyms are: apparent, evident, crystal clear, revealed.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit - all three, equally eternal, from everlasting to everlasting, are God.
Re-post #40: The apostle is/was telling his readers not to be led astray by those who would teach [that] Jesus is not God incarnate - [that] God did not become a man to redeem sinful mankind.
Post #376 from Gen.2:7, Candace: I enjoy conversing with you, Candace. God is going to do something neat in your life.
Surely, you have mentioned many verses here in an attempt to deny the Deity of Christ. However, interpreted rightly - with the whole story in mind - they teach the opposite.
Watch Paul’s words if you will:
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition and the basic priciples of this world rather than on Christ. FOR in Christ all the fullness of the Deity [God] lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over ever power and authority” [Col.2:8-10].
What is Paul trying to get across here? He’s talking about the Deity of Christ. He uses that word “for” in v.9, linking those two verses together. He’s saying, “Don’t be deceived by a non-believing world. ‘For’ the truth is, God has come to us in Jesus Christ.’” - [in a nutshell].
That was the wonderful news about which Isaiah writes in 9:6-7. But we know that when He showed Himself to the world, no one believed Him, including His own people (Jn.1:10). So they crucified Him. But He did rise from the grave - showing He is who He says He is.
As has been mentioned, if Jesus is not God in flesh, there is no Gospel. And finally, it has been said, “If we preach what is true it isn’t new; and if we preach what is new it isn’t true” [C.H. Spurgeon].
Came back to say; Good-Bye and God Bless To You All Here At VBVBC.COM… Always.
I am done commenting for now; until my school semester is over in May. I will still; as I have been; reading everyone’s comments and I may post here and there. For we shall see.
Have A Safe And Happy New Year To You All.
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/29/2011 08:58 am
did you notice; A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE GODHEAD BETWEEN A MINISTER AND A JEWISH RABBI; i simply posted an excerpt from a sermon by bro. branham.
but i fully believe this as truth.
god= (the fathership in heaven/above us)= Lord
god= (the sonship on earth/with us)= Jesus
god= (the holy spirit/in us)= Christ
Lord Jesus Christ… the most exalted name of names in heaven and on earth. even in hell.
and there was only one bro. branham.
and as for myself…i am a bride member.
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/29/2011 08:47 am
Greetings, everyone. I am new here and I have a question: are we allowed to post our own comments, or is this only for established internet commentators?
The reason I ask is that I started reading post 36 here and every sentence sounded like a deja vu. I was sure I had read the same comments somewhere else, word for word. When I came to the word “knowed’ it hit me. Everything I was reading comes from the pen of the witty, colourful, grammitically-licentious Prophet William Branham! Who else could speak like that? So is the famed prophet gracing this website with his personal comments, or is someone else pretending to be him?
In peace.
GODHEAD:
Now I would like to clarify one thing here; I am not a Oneness, a Unitarian, a Twoness, a Binitarian, a Threeness, a Trinitarian, a Bitheism, or a Ditheism believer.
A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE GODHEAD BETWEEN A MINISTER AND A JEWISH RABBI:
Now I want you to notice something here, Jesus could not be His own Father either! He cannot be One like your little finger is one!
Now God cannot be three people, three Gods. Neither can Jesus be His own Father, in one. Therefore you see, it makes both radically wrong.
Now, if you’ll just notice, there is no place in the Bible states that there are three Gods; we’re heathens if you believe this. For you see we know that.
Like the Jew said to me one time, when I was talking to him, said, “Which one of them is your God?
The Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost? Which one is yours?” And I said,
“Why, there is no three Gods.” He said, “You can’t chop God in no three pieces, and give Him to a Jew.” I said. “No sir.”
I said… “When John Rhyn had been healed of blindness, there at Fort Wayne, you know; and this Rabbi up here stated , “You can’t chop God in three pieces and give Him to a Jew.”
I said, “Certainly not. I don’t do that.” I said, “Rabbi, would it be hard for you to believe the prophets?” He said, “No.” I said, “In Isaiah 9:6 who was he talking about, “To us a child is born, a Son is given, be called Counsellor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace?” He said, “That was the Messiah.”
I said, Then Rabbi, what relation will Messiah be to God?” He said, “He will be God.” “That’s what I thought.” Now you see, that’s exactly right. That’s what He is. And so I said, “Tell me now where Jesus failed to fulfill exactly what the prophet said He would do.” And he started to cry and walk around. I said, “By that revelation, John Rhyn has his sight.” And he said, “Far be it from God having a Son!” I said, “The great Jehovah overshadowed a woman, as the prophet said He would, and created a Blood cell. And through that Blood cell is where come forth the body of Christ.”
God was unveiled!
Moses of the Old Testament, one of God’s chosen, selected, predestinated, he also desired to see him. He’d been so close to him and had seen so many things of His great mystic hand going before him and doing things that only God could do. He desired to see Him one day, and God told him, “Go stand on the rock.” And while standing on the rock, Moses seen Him pass. He saw the back of Him. And he said, “It looked like a man” A man’s back. Yet he did not see God, he only seen the veil of God. The Bible said “No man has seen God at any time, but the only begotten of the Father has declared Him.” So Moses saw Him veiled as a man. So what Moses saw was the vessel of the Messiah.
And we find that Jehovah of the Old Testament was just Jesus of the New Testament. And – and Dr. Scofield here, we find that his word changing from form, we find the word en morphe in Greek, which means “the unseen was made visible.” Something that cannot see; but We know it’s there.
And when He changed His form from the en morphe, which means that He changed from supernatural to natural; God just changed His mask.
And otherwise, it’s like a drama; He was acting. In the Greek when they would change their mask, maybe one player might’ve acted in several different parts.
And my daughter (present here) ….they just had at the high school, a drama play. And one boy, that I knowed, played about four parts, but he would go behind the stage and change his mask in order to come out to impersonate another character.
Now, if you will take the Old Testament prophesies concerning what the Messiah was to be, you can compare it with the life of Jesus, and you’ve got it exactly who Jesus was. He was not just an ordinary man; He was God, en Morphe. He was changed from the supernatural into the natural form of a man; yet He was God manifested in the flesh, veiled by a human, fleshly veil. And you watch the Old Testament.
I know that I’m speaking to a mixed up audience tonight from different parts of the world (a gathering that occurred by many Rabbi’s, Ministers, . And we are here to find out: what are we doing? What – what are we…where we getting to? What’s happening? What does all this mean? And now, we find in here that if you Jewish men and women…and the Rabbis in the Temple, in the days gone by, if they’d have watched the Bible, the prophecies, instead of the traditions, they would have recognised who Jesus was. They would’ve never have called Him Bellzebub; they would never have crucified Him. But it all had to act out; that’s part of the drama. And they were blinded on this case.
It’s like many of you men and women here tonight, maybe my age or a little older. You remember here in America years ago before – the Chinese (my brother they just introduced here that came on my mind when I was talking to him), how that they used to…they couldn’t speak English, and they ran the laundry shops. And you would go to his laundry shop to get your laundry done. The Chinese laundry man would take a tag and would tear it in a certain way. You’d take one part of the tag; he’d take the other part. But when you come back to claim your belongings, those two pieces of paper had to dovetail. And if they didn’t dovetail just exactly right (you couldn’t impersonate it in any way, cause he had one piece and you had the other), and if it impersonated…Then you had a right to claim what was yours. And then, you’ve got what belonged to you when you possessed the other part of the contract.
So it is tonight when we got the other part of the contract. When God tore His Son in two at Calvary, taken the body up for a sacrifice, and sent the Spirit down to us, that once lived in a man, Jesus (that same God is in veil tonight in the form of the Holy Ghost), those two pieces has to come together; then you are part of the contract. God did this to be better known to man, when He made Hisself man.”
Dove leading the Lamb! God and Christ talked it over!
God in Heaven (Fathership/Spirit of God)
God on Earth (Sonship/100% Man and 100% God)
God in us (Holy Spirit)…….
By
angel
(wrote 400 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/12/2011 22:48 pm
It is okay to joke, a Godly joke but not an ungodly joke…I think common sense would give us an insight to tell the difference between the two!
“Fools make a mock of sin!” Proverb 14:9…
“”A fools heart is in the house of mirth”Eccl. 7:4….
“When the fool sang for the King( Lord Jesus) and Queen (the Church)
in a coat he borrowed from james Dean…in a voice that came from you and me…while the King was looking down…the FOOL stole his thorny crown..(.Don Maclean Song with the word Jester change to FOOL)….FOOLISH JESTING…taking the crown of thorns of Christ wittout seriousness…would make one have no faith in His Word the bible nor on His death on the cross for once sins!
By
TIUCHE
(wrote 3264 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
5/9/2011 16:09 pm
Charles I agree with you! I think Dolf didn’t ‘cross the line’. I am happy the admin of this forum isn’t so fanatic that he deleted Dolf’s comments. See his word of caution here: http://www.vbvbc.org/bible-verse/Ephesians5-4
By
Jeremy Sündholm
(wrote 45 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
5/9/2011 13:41 pm 
It’s true this is primarily a serious discussion, but a little dose of humor once in a while should not offend anybody. Come on guys! Are we getting to be like those Muslim fanatics who are offended by cartoons of Mohamed and even by the slightest vain mention of the name of their prophet? I hope not! Personally I enjoyed Dolf’s humorous contribution.
By
Charles
(wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
5/9/2011 13:12 pm 
Cleopas:
“Dorf” Are you joking with my name?
“I hope you offended by my comment.” Is this your attempt to joke again?
If it’s true he must have a sad life: never a single joke. Even the most serious Christians around me joke sometimes. Do you think they are bad Christians if they joke?
And yes, you’re right: I don’t take god’s word serious, because I don’t believe it’s god’s word after all…
Always look at the bright side of life - Credit: Monty Python’s Life of Brian; a movie you must see. On of the highlights of British culture.
Dorf
It is written Be holy for I’m also holy 1pet1:16. verse15b it says. So be holy in all manner of conversation. Joking with God’s word i think you will not be taking it serious. JESUS never joke in his entire life.why because every word which he speak were to for the enrichment of a holy life. I hope you offended by my comment.
By
Cleopas john
(wrote 67 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
5/9/2011 08:10 am 
Because I don’t know how much humor you can handle, here the last humor for tonight: “But after a while, I felt like the market was ripe for a sequel—so I sent my son down to shake things up a bit.
Or did I send myself down?
I’m not sure.
Either way, my son and/or I took the form of a bearded long-haired guy in sandals, and went on a mission preaching to and healing the people, turning water into wine and ice into popsicles, and doing some other things involving reindeer, chocolate eggs, holy water, and communion wafers.
I also added a few new laws, like “Do not do unto others as Bill O’Reilly would like to do unto Obama,” “Forgive and you will be forgiven (of a sin of equal or lesser value),” “You can’t serve both the Mets and the Yankees; you can’t serve both God and money; you can’t serve both red wine and blue cheese,” and “Beware of all false prophets, all fat bearded men in red suits, and all infomercial pitchmen promising $19.99 miracles.”
Part Two was hardly anything like Part One—and most people really noticed. In fact, one group was so upset about the changes that it banded together and killed me.
But after a few days, I decided death wasn’t for me—so I rose from the dead, did my thing for a few more weeks, and then relocated uptown and moved back in with my self and my other self.
Amen.
(credits: Rodney Ohebsion)
Thank you Candace. Also hoping to grow and know the Lord more
By
Cleopas
(wrote 67 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
5/1/2011 12:39 pm
Hi! Cleopas….I pray these unfolding revelations will truly bless you & excite your spirit for more! As we are heading deeper into these last days, revelation that has “been sealed unto the end” is now being opened for those who are seeking. May the open heavens of this Passover Season bring you greater intimacy w/ your Redeemer! In His Grip, Candace
By
Candace S
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/21/2011 16:57 pm
I love ths commentries
By
Cleopas
(wrote 67 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
4/21/2011 16:21 pm
Scott, I invite you to join me at 2 Thes 2:3 when you have time. We may have a number of things we can indeed agree with:)
By
Candace S.
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/10/2011 23:36 pm
Scott, now we’re talkin’! I do believe Thessalonians would be appropriate as there are some scriptures in that book I’d love to open up w/ you. Dan & Rev will play an intrical part as this discussion gets going.
My one regret is time. I have so little & I suffer greatly from a severe infirmity that robs me of much of my stamina. I cry out for the healing I KNOW is mine because “by His stripes, I WAS healed” (I Pet 2:24) & I do believe healing is a crucial part the this “new” & “bettr” covenant I’ve entered into. I’ve had many conversations w/ the Lord & cried many tears over the years but alas, healing is not yet mine.
Talk to you when I can 
By
Candace S.
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/8/2011 07:25 am
Candace,
I’m certain that you and I have more in common than not. I appreciate your comments about the end of the Church Age and it would thrill me to see more open dialogue on these matters in the churches as well as on forums like this. Of course, discussing eschatology always runs the risk of “falling off the rails” but that shouldn’t be allowed to stifle iron sharpening iron.
You said;
“I said all that to ask you if you believe we’re on the cusp of the Great Tribulation?”
The Tribulation is a fascinating topic and I personally believe it is sorely misunderstood by most. In large part this is due to all the sensationalized interpretations by the many authors who profit from selling books; and ministries that are trying to generate donations. But to answer your question; no, I don’t believe we are on the cusp of the so called Great Tribulation.
That said, however, I DO believe we are on the cusp of the Great Deception (Matt 24:4) which will spawn the fullness of “Laodecia”. The Church is not ready for this test. To the contrary, in large part, she is poised for failure. The reason I say this is because we are very near the time when an unprecedented PROSPERITY will take hold of the world and the Church will become more awash in material wealth than she has ever been. These riches will so poison her that she will leave Jesus on the outside knocking. Any church that is materially secure and confident in her OWN strength and resources is already deceived; and ready to be GREATLY deceived.
So, in a nutshell as a staunch, unashamed pre-tribber; the basic order of prophecy that we should look for concerning the Church is:
-Unprecedented world-wide prosperity.
-Mass deception over a wealthy Church.
-A world-wide testing resulting in massive apostasy.
-The Rapture of the faithful remnant with “ears to hear”; and THEN:
-The Great Tribulation Rev. 7:14 (3.5 years).
As far as a Great Harvest (latter rain) goes, I don’t see one in scripture apart from what will take place during the period of the Great Tribulation (Rev 7:9; 14).
If you want to continue a discussion along these lines, I’d love to hear your thoughts but perhaps we should move to Revelation, Thessalonians or Daniel.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/8/2011 05:45 am
Scott, I believe we’re very close to the rap up of the Church Age & fast approaching “great tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of the world”. I believe it’s to prepare us for God’s glorious Feast of Tabernacles(that He might tabernacle among us) and the culmination of His Plan to present us as a chaste virgin to His Son (II Cor 11:21). The Kingdom of Heaven will finally be manifest in all it’s glory, God’s King will take his rightful throne & a Bride will be revealed.
I said all that to ask you if you believe we’re on the cusp of the Great Tribulation?
I know this is probably not the correct thread for this to be discussed but God declaring His plan from the beginning in Jn 1:1, made His Word Flesh that we might know Him as we came to know His Son & through that knowledge, be redeemed back to Him/God by Yahshua’s finished work on the cross. Yahweh can now commence w/ the preparation of the wedding feast & tabernacling among men (Rev 21:3) w/ all prophecies, types & shadows being fulfilled exactly as foretold throughout the OT & the New.
I believe there are but a few prophecies remaining to be fulfilled & the tribulation period will begin, the great harvest will be brought in as Yahshua said in (Luke 10:2). The former & latter rain will fall as a deluge the world has never seen & God’s Spirit will be poured out on all flesh.(Joe 2:28 & Acts 2:17)
I think we’re about to see a parallel of darkness, fear & calamity that will shake everything that can be shaken & right along with it, Yahshua’s true Church/Bride, walking in great glory, doing the “greater works than these”, demonstrating the love Of God & bringing in that “Harvest” just prior to the Rapture.
Oops! now I’ve done it!!! :O
By
Candace S.
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/7/2011 22:09 pm
Thanks Candace, and I concur with your sentiment. Praise God for “Mercies new every morning” so that the likes of us should discover Grace.
But a Day is coming when Mercy will no longer be dispensed; yet the Reign of Grace will continue perpetually!
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/7/2011 16:37 pm
Scott, Your post #15 was most eloquently & beautifully said….makes me want to be saved all over again! Grace is such an incredible Gift of receiving something we have absolutely no right to…but than, Mercy, oh thank You, Father for mercy….not receiving that which we should receive for disobedience, rebellion & insolence before a Holy, Sovereign & Majestic God!
And the Son of God was willing to pay that massive debt in full because of….Love.
By
Candace S.
(wrote 286 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/7/2011 16:06 pm
Charles, (post #18)
So, I take it you’re NOT teachable?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/7/2011 04:19 am
old earth or new earth is irrelevant. One must avoid foolish arguments. We must unite under the teachings of Christ and not traditions of men. Christ was not worried about how old the Earth is.
By
James Richter
(wrote 536 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/7/2011 00:18 am 
Scott, I will remain objective despite your attacks. No educated person living today can possibly believe that the earth was made before the stars. No cynicism, just the honest truth. When you admit this, we can talk.
By
Charles Fiott
(wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/6/2011 19:50 pm
Charles,
At the risk of offending you, I’m surprised at your lack of objectivity. What you clearly don’t lack is cynicism.
For instance, your very first point suggests the order of creation as well as the age of the earth are “wrong” so the Bible must be unreliable. Do you not know how highly this point is contested even among seasoned biblical scholars? I personally believe in the “old earth” theory and I have the scriptural “evidence” to back it up. Objectivity insists that you examine BOTH sides. But you (evidently) reject that and prefer to inject a cynical “So come on!”
Your second point simply dismisses everything in my previous post by saying; “this sort of deduction is not enough”. Yet you leave out that I gave you an IMPLICIT example as one of dozens (if not hundreds). Even circumstantial evidence can be construed as “proof” in a court of law if the body of evidence is substantial. But you call it “iffy”.
I don’t have time now to go into your third and fourth points. Perhaps later; but what I am struck with is that you come across as one who is not really interested in truth unless it fits your paradigm. Perhaps I’m wrong. I hope so; but the Lord said that you will only find Him if you “seek him with ALL your heart. I know he is not eager to reveal his treasures to those who really don’t desire to receive them. Are you teachable?
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/6/2011 19:10 pm
Scott, here are my comments to the points you made in post 15.
1. The first example of the Bible being wrong is the very first line: In the beginning God created heaven and earth. Heaven is fine, but earth was not created before the sun and the stars. Another example is the Bible chronology that makes the universe only 6,000 years old when we know that humans have been around for more than a million years, dinosaurs more than 70 million, and stars billions. So, come on! The Bible didn’t get it wrong by just a tiny little bit!
On the other hand some accounts in the Bible have been proved dead right. So I’ve always wondered which parts I can believe and which I should not. It stands to reason that contemporary writers had a much better chance of getting it right than those who were trying to reconstruct events before their time. By applying this to the gospels I was more inclined to believe Mark, which was written within 30 years of so after Jesus died, than a book like John which came much later.
2. Your second point was about evidence. Tell me where you find such strong evidence that Jesus was God. I do find it in John, but nowhere else. In your previous post you deduced he is God from the miracle of the paralytic. While I respect your opinion on this, this sort of deduction is not enough. Other people have arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was NOT God by claiming that he had many opportunities to declare himself God and failed each and every time. While this is true, I don’t accept that as “evidence” either. Evidence is not proof, but it’s got to be something stronger than an iffy deduction.
3. Your third point was the Christian doctrine of the Atonement. The word “atonement” appears only once in the entire Bible, and that’s in Rom 5:11 (…we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. “ Theologians have used this and a couple of other lines by Paul to design an atonement doctrine. Considering the negligent backing that this subject gets from the Bible, I wonder how much time such a doctrine is worth.
I really don’t want to go into a discussion about sin, but I have to comment on one thing you said: “We all die but Jesus was born for the express purpose of dying.” First, I don’t think the Bible says that. Second, I can never hold myself guilty for a sin that someone else committed 6,000 years ago. Jesus didn’t die for me. Jesus died because the Jews and the Romans wanted to get rid of him. That’s history. They killed him, not me. The redemption story that Paul made up four thousand years after the fact is a myth which doesn’t even pass the laugh test.
By
Charles Fiott
(wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/6/2011 17:18 pm
Charles,
To you, your analysis was not a “giant step” toward your “conclusion”. To me, it “appeared” to be so.
Be that as it may, I would like to follow up on some of your other observations:
1. “Since I discovered that parts of the Bible are wrong..” What parts are you talking about? Can you give an example or two. I have not yet found any myself.
2. “As you indicated, even John’s Gospel doesn’t prove that Jesus was God..” As a point of clarification; NOTHING proves that Jesus is God. All we have to go on is EVIDENCE. I believe the evidence is overwhelming (some call this “proof”). But I haven’t always believed this way. At the beginning, I doubted everything-who doesn’t? “But faith (belief) comes by hearing; and hearing by the word of God”. The more I examined God’s word and tested it, the more I believed it. The more I got to know Jesus, the more I understood who he is. God does not expect us to blindly believe him. He gives us an enormous amount of evidence and testimony to work with and he lets us decide. The burden of proof is not on his part, it’s on ours. His graciousness is such that he lets us run completely free of his authority and kindness and he doesn’t even rebuke us for this. But he does have a way of bringing the reality of our choices to bear on our conscience.., not for the sake of condemnation, but rather for the sake of redemption. How can the “creature” live independent of the “creator” and then at the end of his life simply expect the creator to be his maid and clean up the mess he left behind just before stepping into eternity? Ecclesiastes 11:9 speaks directly to this.
3. “you dismiss the idea that Jesus had a power of attorney from God”. This is a very interesting statement and it needs to be examined a little bit. I did not dismiss this notion; it’s just that it’s deeper than it appears and difficult to communicate; but here goes. (If you are familiar with the Christian Doctrine of the Atonement, you will recognize that these are the matters that it covers. If you are not familiar with it, may I suggest you get a copy and examine it. There are many good sources from mainline Christian bookstores. Many of the writings of CS Lewis are excellent in this regard; “Mere Christianity” being one of them).
First of all, it’s good to understand the severity of sin. It is not a misdemeanor; it is a capital offense. But regardless of severity, there is always a price to be paid when the law is broken. A misdemeanor carries a fine perhaps; where a capital offense may carry imprisonment or execution. It’s very important to remember that when an offense occurs, somebody loses something. A misdemeanor may be incurred for anything from graffiti on a public building to a minor assault at a sporting event. In both cases, “somebody” has to pay for the damages. Even if the offense is “forgiven”; somebody still suffers loss and has to make up that loss. In a capital offense such as murder, the victim is lost forever. Even if the victim wanted to forgive the murderer, he can’t. The spouse of the victim may choose to forgive the murderer but he or she can only forgive them for the offense that they suffered, not the offense the victim suffered. But regardless of the forgiveness aspect, societal justice demands punishment. If it didn’t, the law would be meaningless and the social order would quickly be destroyed. Therefore, the murderer pays society for the price of his offense; hence, justice is maintained and the rule of law prevails. Sometimes the price is a lengthy prison sentence, sometimes it’s execution.
In the case of “Power of Attorney”, it works the same way. The one vested with the power cannot simply forgive a capital offense. Society will demand that a price be paid. The only way “Power of Attorney” can legally “forgive” the societal debt of a capital offense is if the one vested with such power could actually pay the price of the offense. In other words, take the punishment that was due the perpetrator. Even in the case of a misdemeanor this is true. Suppose you are guilty of property damage to your rich neighbor to the tune of $500. He may “forgive” your debt by choosing not to prosecute, but by doing so, he himself has covered the cost of your offense. Somebody always has to pay. Even in personal relationships; if I offend you and diminish your character and you “forgive” me without apology on my part; who is it that restores your character? YOU do. You wind up paying the price for my offense.
If you are still with me, please hang in there just a little longer. Candace is correct when she says that “Jesus came to die”. We all die but Jesus was born for the express purpose of dying. We don’t. Now, try to imagine ALL the filthy, heinous sin of all men that’s ever been committed from the dawn of time up until the present and into the future. There is absolutely no way to quantify it nor determine the price to be paid for it if forgiveness should ever be granted. In order to do so and thereby satisfy the righteous justice of a holy God; something of tremendous worth must be offered. Something so great as to remove not only the punishment (price) for sin but the guilt of sin as well. ALL sin for ALL time (including “original sin).
At this point, may I say that the life and blood of a merely “sinless” human being is not sufficient to intercede for more than ONE criminal. However, the sinless life and blood of the eternal Son of God is far more costly and precious than the cumulative value of every human life that should ever live. His blood shed for us is exceedingly sufficient for any crime we have ever or will ever commit. His blood assuages his father’s wrath against us and secures his eternal mercy and grace on our behalf. The price of our crimes HAS BEEN paid. This is the Gospel; this is the good news. If we believe it, we will honor the Son in return for what he has done for us and thereby honor his Father and so be saved. If we dishonor the Son and reject this gracious, incredible provision given by God the Father, what hope do we possibly have to withstand his judgment?
The Man standing before the paralytic “granting” forgiveness is much more than a representative with “Power of Attorney”. Jesus could genuinely forgive him because it was He Himself who was the payment for his sins. If you will, Jesus came to take responsibility for sin. He was able to forgive the paralytic because he literally and legally TOOK his sin from him and made it his own. He would die for it; but he did not have to wait until then in order to take it.
I expect you will have some questions.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/6/2011 07:00 am
Well, Scott, my process was as follows:
1. My starting point was that I never believe anything I don’t have a solid reason to. Since I discovered that parts of the Bible are wrong, I can never know which parts are really true. So I set out to research the deity of Jesus with a totally open mind.
2. I knew what John said about the subject, but I wanted to compare this gospel with the other three. I also researched the progress of Christianity during those sixty years or so between Mark and John, figuring that the writings had to reflect the situation to some degree. I also figured that if Jesus was ALWAYS God, he would have been given that honor from the beginning. Instead I found that this doesn’t happen till almost the very end.
3. This led me to believe that it was John’s book that hinged the deity for Jesus.
My “conclusion” isn’t really a conclusion. It just appears that way. I can’t present it as a fact. So I don’t think it is the “huge step” you think it is. As you indicated, even John’s Gospel doesn’t prove that Jesus was God, and, by the same token, what I said does not “prove” that he wasn’t either. But I believe my observation is valid.
With regard to your example with the paralytic you dismiss the idea that Jesus had a power of attorney from God. But Jesus also passed on this power to Peter BEFORE he died. (And then Peter passed it on down to all the priests.) So I don’t see why the paralytic’s sin couldn’t have been truly forgiven even if Jesus was not God.
By
Charles Fiott
(wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/6/2011 01:39 am
Charles,
I’m not trying to discredit your remarks. You are certainly entitled to them. I’m attempting to clarify how they appear to me. Simply put; your first paragraph in post #8 appears as observation; your second paragraph is mostly speculative and your third paragraph is conclusive of the two.
To me, your conclusion constitutes a very “giant step”. My remark has more to do with your process than your result.
Concerning your result, the determination that Jesus is God is based on many criteria ranging from explicit to implicit. The criteria are found throughout the entire Bible. Regarding the Gospels in particular, John’s gospel has perhaps the most explicit examples but even those can be cast under a shadow as you can well imagine. Implicit examples can be found all over the place depending on what degree of understanding (and faith) one possesses. Of course, these examples are always the most debatable. I personally find the enormous amount of implicit examples (evidence) to be so overwhelming that an explicit statement such as “the Word was God” serves more as an exclamation point at the end of the argument rather than the basis of the argument.
I look at things like the miraculous healing of the paralyzed man who was lowered through the roof in front of Jesus. This account is in all three synoptics but absent from John. The amazing thing about this story is not the miraculous healing; but the forgiving of the paralytic’s sins. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law mull; “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
This statement by these religious leaders reflects a powerful doctrine based on a powerful theology. No one can forgive sins for someone else. This is at the very heart of the Law. Some say that Jesus could forgive sins because he himself was WITHOUT sin but nowhere in the history of righteous law does the innocence of one party grant them the authority to intercede on behalf of two other parties and arbitrarily grant forgiveness to one of them. It is an affront to true justice.
OTOH, the only time a third person/party has authority to intercede in such a fashion is if that person is positionally greater than the parties involved in the conflict. A governor has authority to grant amnesty (forgiveness/freedom) to someone who has “sinned” against his constituents.
Neither one of these things were apparent to the religious leaders who judged Jesus’ absolution of the paralyzed man. So, Jesus healed the man as testimony to his authority.
Now, in the case of men sinning against men, it is positionally possible for another man to fully intercede and resolve the dispute (if such a person exists and is willing). However, in the case of men sinning against God, NO mere man can intercede. God alone possesses the arbitrary power to bind or forgive sins. The Pharisees and teachers of the law understood this perfectly and rightly so.
But some say that Jesus could do this because he was “granted” authority by God to do so. IMO, this point fails to make an impact. Firstly, because it’s very difficult to find pre-Calvary scriptures to support such a commissioning. But second of all, because of Calvary itself; it had not yet occurred. The blood of Jesus only has power for intercession AFTER IT IS SHED. If Jesus were merely a man, his blood would not have been able to be a basis for the forgiveness of the paralytic until it was poured out unto death.
So, this leaves only one of two possibilities regarding Jesus’ authority to forgive sins;
1. The paralytic’s sins really WEREN’T forgiven at the time of Jesus’ declaration, or;
2. Jesus is God.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/5/2011 21:17 pm
Scott, if you want to discredit my remarks by calling them “dogmatic” and “speculation” you should say why my conclusion is wrong. Isn’t it true that John is the only book in the Bible that deifies Jesus?
By
Charles Fiott
(wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/5/2011 18:01 pm
Charles,
It seems to me that your post #8 was a combination of human observation and speculation followed by a concluding dogmatic remark. I was responding to your conclusion.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/5/2011 17:38 pm
Scott, I would say that what I expressed in post 8 was not a dogmatic remark but a human observation. Other than John, which was written about 100 years after the death of Jesus, I frankly do not see any basis for the deification of Jesus.
By
Charles Fiott
(wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/5/2011 14:18 pm
“This was a gient step indeed. Without the Gospel of John Jesus would not be God and there would be no trinity.”
Charles, (post #8)
It occurs to me that your dogmatic remark is a far greater giant step! True, without John’s gospel much would suffer regarding the doctrine of the deity of Jesus because his gospel is saturated with affirmation. But the evidence establishing the doctrine does not hinge on it.
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/5/2011 03:09 am
My observation is that, with this introduction, the writer of John takes a giant leap from the earlier gospels. In Mark, which was written around the year 60, Jesus appears to be only a prophet who returns from the wilderness with the announcement that the Kingdom of God is at hand. Jesus is from Nazareth and is baptized in the River Jordan. No mention is made of Bethlehem or David. In Matthew and Luke, which were written a few years later, Jesus is born in Bethlehem and a connection is made to David and to Abraham. Also, Jesus performs bigger and better miracles and he is now referred to as the Son of God . . . but not God yet.
It takes a couple of generations for this to happen. By the time John was written Christianity has taken hold and Jesus has grown in stature. So the writer of John is emboldened. Now Jesus is not only connected to Abraham but all the way to the “beginning”. He is now “one with God”.
This was a gient step indeed. Without the Gospel of John Jesus would not be God and there would be no trinity.
By
Charles Fiott
(wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
1/5/2011 00:41 am
Jason,
Fair question. It was very late and I didn’t set up my comments well. I was responding to post #3 where it says:
“The usual translation, “The Word was God” implies that the Son is the Father, which is ridiculous. It leads to erroneous church creeds stating that all members of the Trinity are equal,”
Thanks for keeping an eye on me!
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
11/2/2010 04:22 am
Scott, are you just making a statement or reacting to my previous post? Just curious, I don’t have a problem with what you said in post #5 at all.
By
Jason W. Elder
(wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
11/2/2010 02:28 am 
“The Word was God” does NOT in any way imply that the Son is the Father. Rather, it emphatically STATES that the Son is GOD!
And regarding this sad notion that the “members of the Trinity are (not) equal”, Paul must’ve been a little dehydrated as he sat in prison and wrote:
“…Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought it NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD; But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men..” Phil 2:6-7
By
Scott Dale
(wrote 581 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
11/1/2010 03:22 am
“Jesus is God spelling Himself out in language that man can understand.”—S. D. Gordon
By
Jason W. Elder
(wrote 321 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
10/31/2010 04:16 am
John 1:1 is probably the most often mistranslated verse in the Bible.
The usual translation, “The Word was God” implies that the Son is the Father, which is ridiculous. It leads to erroneous church creeds stating that all members of the Trinity are equal, even though the Bible states of Jesus that “when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself shall be subject to Him who put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
(1st Corinthians 15:28)
The Greek words in John 1:1 are in the order “God was the Word” (”theos en ho logos”. But, if you really wanted to say that in Greek, you would have to say “ho logos en ho theos”.
The Greek grammar rule affecting John 1:1 is this: Since “God” is not preceded by “the” (”ho”), but “Word” is, “the Word” is the subject of the sentence, while “God” is used descriptively — like an adjective.
A similar use (by the same writer)is John 4:24 “pneuma ho theos”, translated as “God [is] spirit”, not “Spirit [is] God”.
It is as if you asked, “What is the nature of God?”. Answer: “spirit”.
Likewise, “What is the nature of the Word?” Answer: “God”.
Unfortunately, in “The Word was God”, “God” does not sound descriptive.
One popular Bible translation uses, “The Word was divine”. That has been criticized as too weak. My own suggestion for an accurate translation is “The Word was Deity.”
By
John Berry
(wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
10/21/2009 05:21 am 
Here are the Bible Commentaries of John Calvin on John 1:1:
In the beginning was the Speech. In this introduction he asserts the eternal Divinity of Christ, in order to inform us that he is the eternal God, who was manifested in the flesh, (1 Timothy 3:16.) The design is, to show it to have been necessary that the restoration of mankind should be accomplished by the Son of God, since by his power all things were created, since he alone breathes into all the creatures life and energy, so that they remain in their condition; and since in man himself he has given a remarkable display both of his power and of his grace, and even subsequently to the fall of man has not ceased to show liberality and kindness towards his posterity. And this doctrine is highly necessary to be known; for since apart from God we ought not at all to seek life and salvation, how could our faith rest on Christ, if we did not know with certainty what is here taught? By these words, therefore, the Evangelist assures us that we do not withdraw from the only and eternal God, when we believe in Christ, and likewise that life is now restored to the dead through the kindness of him who was the source and cause of life, when the nature of man was still uncorrupted.
As to the Evangelist calling the Son of God the Speech, the simple reason appears to me to be, first, because he is the eternal Wisdom and Will of God; and, secondly, because he is the lively image of His purpose; for, as Speech is said to be among men the image of the mind, so it is not inappropriate to apply this to God, and to say that He reveals himself to us by his Speech. The other significations of the Greek word logos (Logos) do not apply so well. It means, no doubt, definition, and reasoning, and calculation; but I am unwilling to carry the abstruseness of philosophy beyond the measure of my faith. And we perceive that the Spirit of God is so far from approving of such subtleties that, in prattling with us, by his very silence he cries aloud with what sobriety we ought to handle such lofty mysteries.
Now as God, in creating the world, revealed himself by that Speech, so he formerly had him concealed with himself, so that there is a twofold relation; the former to God, and the latter to men. Servetus, a haughty scoundrel belonging to the Spanish nation, invents the statement, that this eternal Speech began to exist at that time when he was displayed in the creation of the world, as if he did not exist before his power was made known by external operation. Very differently does the Evangelist teach in this passage; for he does not ascribe to the Speech a beginning of time, but says that he was from the beginning, and thus rises beyond all ages. I am fully aware how this dog barks against us, and what cavils were formerly raised by the Arians, namely, that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, (Genesis 1:1)which nevertheless are not eternal, because the word beginning refers to order, instead of denoting eternity. But the Evangelist meets this calumny when he says, And the Speech was with God. If the Speech began to be at some time, they must find out some succession of time in God; and undoubtedly by this clause John intended to distinguish him from all created things. For many questions might arise, Where was this Speech? How did he exert his power? What was his nature? How might he be known? The Evangelist, therefore, declares that we must not confine our views to the world and to created things; for he was always united to God, before the world existed. Now when men date the beginning from the origin of heaven and earth, do they not reduce Christ to the common order of the world, from which he is excluded in express terms by this passage? By this proceeding they offer an egregious insult not only to the Son of God, but to his eternal Father, whom they deprive of his wisdom. If we are not at liberty to conceive of God without his wisdom, it must be acknowledged that we ought not to seek the origin of the Speech any where else than in the Eternal Wisdom of God.
Servetus objects that the Speech cannot be admitted to have existed any earlier than when Moses introduces God as speaking. As if he did not subsist in God, because he was not publicly made known: that is, as if he did not exist within, until he began to appear without. But every pretense for outrageously absurd fancies of this description is cut off by the Evangelist, when he affirms without reservation, that the Speech was with God; for he expressly withdraws us from every moment of time.
Those who infer from the imperfect tense of the verb [9] which is here used, that it denotes continued existence, have little strength of argument to support them. Was, they say, is a word more fitted to express the idea of uninterrupted succession, than if John had said, Has been. But on matters so weighty we ought to employ more solid arguments; and, indeed, the argument which I have brought forward ought to be reckoned by us sufficient; namely, that the Evangelist sends us to the eternal secrets of God, that we may there learn that the Speech was, as it were hidden, before he revealed himself in the external structure of the world. Justly, therefore, does Augustine remark, that this beginning, which is now mentioned, has no beginning; for though, in the order of nature, the Father came before his Wisdom, yet those who conceive of any point of time when he went before his Wisdom, deprive Him of his glory. And this is the eternal generation, which, during a period of infinite extent before the foundation of the world, lay hid in God, so to speak — which, for a long succession of years, was obscurely shadowed out to the Fathers under the Law, and at length was more fully manifested in flesh.
I wonder what induced the Latins to render ho logos by Verbum, (the Word;) for that would rather have been the translation of to rhe?ma. But granting that they had some plausible reason, still it cannot be denied that Sermo (the Speech) would have been far more appropriate. Hence it is evident, what barbarous tyranny was exercised by the theologians of the Sorbonne, [10] who teased and stormed at Erasmus in such a manner, because he had changed a single word for the better.
And the Speech was with God. We have already said that the Son of God is thus placed above the world and above all the creatures, and is declared to have existed before all ages. But at the same time this mode of expression attributes to him a distinct personality from the Father; for it would have been absurd in the Evangelist to say that the Speech was always with God, if he had not some kind of subsistence peculiar to himself in God. This passage serves, therefore, to refute the error of Sabellius; for it shows that the Son is distinct from the Father. I have already remarked that we ought to be sober in thinking, and modest in speaking, about such high mysteries. And yet the ancient writers of the Church were excusable, when, finding that they could not in any other way maintain sound and pure doctrine in opposition to the perplexed and ambiguous phraseology of the heretics, they were compelled to invent some words, which after all had no other meaning than what is taught in the Scriptures. They said that there are three Hypostases, or Subsistences, or Persons, in the one and simple essence of God. The word; hupostasis (Hypostasis) occurs in this sense in Hebrews 1:3, to which corresponds the Latin word Substaatia, (substance) as it is employed by Hilary. The Persons (ta prosopa) were called by them distinct properties in God, which present themselves to the view of our minds; as Gregory Nazianzen says, “I cannot think of the One (God) without having the Three (Persons) shining around me. [11]
And the Speech was God. That there may be no remaining doubt as to Christ’s divine essence, the Evangelist distinctly asserts that he is God. Now since there is but one God, it follows that Christ is of the same essence with the Father, and yet that, in some respect, he is distinct from the Father. But of the second clause we have already spoken. As to the unity of the divine essence, Arius showed prodigious wickedness, when, to avoid being compelled to acknowledge the eternal Divinity of Christ, he prattled about I know not what imaginary Deity; [12] but for our part, when we are informed that the Speech was God, what right have we any longer to call in question his eternal essence?
” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ” Joh. 1:1
” Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him. ” Mark 6:3
comparing these two verses it’s obvious that Jesus Christ is Eternal God in the flesh….. ” and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. ” Joh. 1:14
His own neighbors knew Him as just another self employed Jewish man
who spoke well at the synagogue and was of no other particular interest to them. the Jewish leaders saw Him as an ever increasing threat to their control over the people.
but to those whom God chose and is choosing to reveal the true nature of Jesus Christ, He is the Everlasting Father of Isaiah 9:6
at the cutting edge of the Divinity of Jesus Christ is the purpose of God to reveal Him to mankind as such, or not…
as Jesus spoke teaching that He is the Good Shepherd of Psalm 23 and confronted by the Jews questioning Him if He was the promised Messiah, Jesus admitted to them that indeed He is Eternal God… and they picked up stones to kill Him on the spot. Joh. 10
” I and the Father are one.” … of one and the same nature v. 30
the deciding factor of Christ’s Divinity is in the purpose of God to reveal Him as such while the rest see Him as of no consequence at all. Mt. 16:13-17
the same is true today.
unless God has purposed to reveal through the preaching of the gospel that Jesus Christ is Eternal God come in the flesh these who deny are said to be deceivers and antichrists. 1 Joh. 4:1-3;
2 Joh. 1:7
” Therefore also it is contained in the Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner Stone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him shall never be ashamed.
Therefore to you who believe is the honor. But to those who are disobedient, He is the Stone which the builders rejected; this One came to be the Head of the corner,
and a Stone-of-stumbling and a Rock-of-offense to those disobeying, who stumble at the Word, to which they also were appointed. ”
1 Pet. 2:6-8
while the earth remains Jesus Christ will always be the object of shame and offense to those whom God does not wish to reveal Himself in… while to them that are being saved they “shall never be ashamed”
By
old man joe
(wrote 5 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
6/3/2007 14:26 pm 
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On denying the triune God: “Does this mean a doctrine cannot be true simply because it defies our human imagination or ability to comprehend it? The answer is, of course not. It would be nothing short of human arrogance to say it was.”