Oh for a blessed living hope for all the depraved sinners like me! Hallelujah, Amen!

Commentary by Jayant Christian
Posted on: 7/28/2010 06:01 am

Jayant,

Your point about the human spirit is well made and I receive it (dead but not non-existant). In one sense, it may be accurate to say that our spirit is still-born at birth. I like this because when Peter says that we have been “born-again” (ana-gennao) in the metaphoric sense, it takes on a near literal meaning.

You’ll have no argument from me that our spiritual birth is the starting point in our redemption; and in this present time our HOPE is in the fullness of redemption– the resurrection of our bodies. The Holy Spirit is the earnest deposit in our heart until we finally witness that mighty day of glory which is coming with increasing velocity! It is the time to keep our lamps lit and full of oil!

“I continue to learn.”

Scott

Commentary by Scott Dale
Posted on: 7/28/2010 01:54 am

You are a wonderul brother, Scott,

I believe redemption includes and fully realised in resurrection of body.
But when a person believes his spirit is made alive. Man’s spirit dead towards God is made alive. What is birth after all? It is bring forth the life. When the spirit is thus redeemed it is spiritual birth, just as when the body will be redeemed in resurrection will also be bringing forth of life from death. The spirit of an unsaved man is dead towards God, but it doesn’t mean that it is nonexistant. When a person believes in Christ,he is born anew or again. This is the kingdom in you, the experience of life being under the ruling of God. The entering of the kingdom (sphere)and being rulers with Jesus is after resurrection.

Resurrection of Jesus finally realised our redemption. Our reurrection is in the final link, but the Cross precedes.

For me born again and born from above is the spiritual birth, a starting point in redemption culminating in fianl( first)resurrection.

I don’t want to be very dogmatic, but I cann’t accept what I don’t follow. I continue to learn.

Commentary by Jayant Christian
Posted on: 7/27/2010 22:16 pm

Jayant,

One more point I neglected from my last post:

You said; “Jesus links this with his sacrificial death on cross, (John 3:14-15), and not to the final redemption of body at the time of resurrection.”

I agree that Jesus “links this with his sacrificial death on cross” but how do you not see the link with the resurrection? Whenever Jesus says; “will not perish” (because he dies in our place), he also goes on to say; “but have everlasting LIFE” (because he rises from the dead).

OUR salvation is linked directly to Christ’s death just as OUR resurrection (eternal life) is linked directly to His resurrection. IMHO, the link Jesus makes is to BOTH or there is no link at all.

Commentary by Scott Dale
Posted on: 7/27/2010 14:02 pm

Brother Jayant,

My use of the words “Spirit of Christ” and “Spirit of God” can be used interchangeably. I had no particular reason for stating it that way.

Concerning the possibility that Jesus is talking about the Resurrection of believers and not merely a spiritual rebirth; I don’t think it is “somehow a meaning too far stretched” at all.

Doctrinally, I agree with everything else that you say in your last post. I just differ on what Jesus was actually teaching Nicodemus during this encounter. It’s evident that you think the language construct supports your interpretation. I think it supports mine (see post #11; also my comments on John 3:8).

I don’t know your position regarding the “depravity of man”, but for the sake of this discussion, consider one simple point: If it is true that when a person is born into the world, he arrives as a living body and soul, but spiritually dead; then why would Jesus say that person must be spiritually born AGAIN when his spirit has never even been born ONCE?

Commentary by Scott Dale
Posted on: 7/27/2010 13:37 pm

My understanding of John 3: 1-16 is that Jesus talks about two births: Physical, “that which is of the flesh is flesh,” and spiritual birth, “that which is born of Spirit is spirit.” The Spirit gives life. It is the Holy Spirit, also called the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God; the one and the same Spirit. To say that one is born again is through the Spirit of Christ and is born from above by the Spirit of God at the time of resurrection is somehow a meaning too far stretched.

Yes with the resurrection our redemption of our body will be realized through the power of the Holy Spirit, but it starts at the time when a person puts his faith on the Lord Jesus as the Son of God. We mortify our fleshly nature through the Holy Spirit. So from start to finish the life giving Spirit from above is at work in us. When a person believes on the Son of God, he is born from above as the Spirit is from above. He is born again, for after his physical birth, that would be his spiritual birth. The usage of Greek gives both the meanings.

Jesus links this with his sacrificial death on cross, (John 3:14-15), and not to the final redemption of body at the time of resurrection.

Yes, salvation is of the Jews; for the Messiah was to come from the Jews. Jesus was telling Nicodemus about the need for a living and saving faith in Him, which is there in the OT.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ starts with the proclamation, “Repent and believe on the gospel.” Peter while addressing the Jews gathered in Jerusalem told them to repent as well. (Acts 2) So both faith and repentance are required. You cannot do way with repentance. It would mean to work against the foundational truth.

Commentary by Jayant Christian
Posted on: 7/27/2010 09:00 am

“If we teach that we are giving an impression to the people that they are not to bother to be born from above just now. Wait till you are resurrected!”

Jayant,

In no way am I saying that we do not have to be “born again” in our spirit by the Spirit of Christ before we ever hope to be “born from above” in our body by the Spirit of God at the time of the resurrection. This truth is foundational and fundamental to any hope of salvation and is clearly taught throughout the NT. But Jesus is not teaching this truth to Nicodemus.

“Salvation” was OF the Jews. When and where was it ever taught in the OT that the Jews “must be born again” to be saved? Or, how is it that anyone could’ve been “born again” before Jesus died; rose and poured out the Spirit at Pentecost? But even during the conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus had not been rejected by the Jews. Are we to think that Jesus was looking ahead to Calvary and beyond at this early stage in his ministry and expecting Nicodemus to see the same thing?

Keep in mind that the time of the resurrection of our bodies is the time of the FULLNESS of our redemption. Jews were redeemed (saved), not through the keeping of the Law but by embracing the same faith as their father Abraham. If they needed to repent in order to get back to God, the means were already there for them to do so. Their history well affirms this. Jesus was not talking to Nicodemus as if he needed redemption (salvation), if he were, he would only need to talk to him about repentance. Jesus was speaking to him of his future hope; the resurrection, the fullness of redemption which all of Israel longed for.

Commentary by Scott Dale
Posted on: 7/26/2010 12:58 pm

Yes, In John 3:5 it is only “genno” (be born) in Greek, but the Lord Jesus starts addressing the topic in John 3:3, where we have “genno anothen” ( born from above or born again). “Anothen” is from from the root which means from above as to the place, but anew or over again as to he time.

Well, who are going to inherit the imperishable kigdom of God?(1 cor. 15) Those who belong to Christ. Who belong to Christ? They who are in Christ, a new creation. How are they in Christ? By being born again or from above. In John 3 therefore Jesus is not telling that the new birth from above takes place at the time of resurrection of the sleeping saints. It is when they are born anew that they who are dead in sin are raised alive! (Ephes.2.This is the starting point. One has not wait to be born from above till the time of the first resurrection of bodies. If we teach that we are giving an impression to the people that they are not to bother to be born from above just now. Wait till you are resurrected!

Commentary by Jayant Christian
Posted on: 7/26/2010 08:20 am

Jayant,

You know that Nicodemus does not say “born again”. He says “can a man enter a SECOND TIME into his mother’s womb?” Please note that the choice of Nicodemus’ words prove the case that Jesus’ intent was “born from above” not “born again”.

If Jesus had meant to say, “born again”, he would’ve used metaphoric language to describe a spiritual reality. But Nicidemus’ response reveals that he took Jesus’ words literally; not metaphorically.

Furthermore, if Jesus had intended to speak metaphorically, he very likely would’ve used the word “anagennao” (again born); but he uses the word “gennao” (literal birth). See 1 Peter 1:3

Though Jesus doesn’t say so to Nicodemus, He might’ve answered his question from verse 4 in this manner:

“No, Nicodemus, you cannot enter the womb of your mother a second time and be born once again; but many will enter the womb of the earth and one day be literally born from above! This will be a work of the Spirit of God when the glorious sons of God are made manifest.” See 1 Cor 15:42-44

Jesus was speaking of the future resurrection of the saints.

Commentary by Scott Dale
Posted on: 7/25/2010 23:39 pm