“So is EVERYONE …”

As JK in post #1 infers, the metaphor of “wind blowing” where it wants to is assigned to the INDIVIDUAL who has been born or the Spirit. The metaphor is NOT assigned to the Spirit (of God). This fact changes almost every popular interpretation of this verse.

But JK goes on to state that all of this hinges on water baptism and I must disagree at this point. As I have mentioned in other posts in this section of John, Jesus is referring to the RESURRECTION of the believer when he speaks of one who is “born of the Spirit”. With that in mind, verse 8 takes on a powerful meaning for we see these same attributes evident in Jesus after He rose from the dead and 1 Cor 15 tells us that our resurrected bodies will be like HIS resurrected body.., blowing when and where it wants to. Our “born from above” resurrected spiritual body will be able to fly as the wind.

As for the other posters who say “water and Spirit” is a reference to the new covenant prophesied in the Old Testament in passages like Ezekiel 36 or even Jeremiah 31, I must also depart from such a conclusion.

These OT passages clearly refer to the time of the End when the Lord will gather Israel from all nations and bring them back into their own land. It is at THAT time that the Lord establishes a new covenant with the Jews. This event is STILL FUTURE. Jesus would not have been referring to these prophecies in his conversation with Nicodemus for they are given for the time of the end.

The ONLY reason Nicodemus should have understood what Jesus was talking about is that he was a Pharisee and a teacher. The Pharisees believed in and taught about the Resurrection but evidently they did not do so with conviction or Nicodemus would’ve understood.

Jesus was not pointing Nicodemus back to the prophecies of the past, He was pointing him forward to the time of the Resurrection!

Commentary by Scott Dale
Posted on: 7/26/2010 04:25 am

We Accept Acts 2:38, but we differ with the interpretation which makes baptism a means of actual or literal remission of sins. We believe baptism has REFERENCE to the remission of sin, but in a REPRESENTATIVE and DECLARATIVE sense rather than a procurative sense.

Acts 2:38 is the “sugarstick” for those who believe that baptism is literally “in order to” the real, actual, experimental remission of sins, and is an essential ingredient of salvation. We do not accept this view. Baptism DOES remit sins, but the entire issue is, IN WHAT SENSE does — or can — baptism remit sins?

And the answer is, the ONLY sense in which it CAN remit — as we elsewhere understand from Scripture — is as a “LIKENESS” and a “FIGURE” (Romans 6:4-6; 1 Peter 3:21). This is the representative sense.

The remission of sins in the representative sense is a very common biblical concept, especially in the Old Testament. Baptism is much like the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament, which did not really or literally atone for sin but were representations of Jesus Christ who would eventually come into the world and actually atone for sin by the sacrifice of Himself. See Hebrews 10.

In language of the figurative category, there is the device called “trope,” which means the attribution of something which is “real” to that which is only a symbol, an emblem, or a representation. For example, when you show a picture of your mother and say, “This is my mother,” you are using “trope.” The photo simply represents or illustrates your mother. It is not really your mother.

For a Biblical example of this, consider the following:

Christ said, “This IS my body” when He took the bread. When He took the cup, He said, “This IS my blood.”

Of course, His literal body was His fleshly body, and not the bread itself. His literal blood was still circulating in His literal body, and was not the liquid in the cup. He was using “trope” in His teaching — attributing the reality to the emblem.

Since it is not possible for an external ordinance to do an INTERNAL work on the heart or to render real satisfaction (atonement) to the broken Law of God (Hebrews 10:1-4), baptism cannot do these things except in the “trope” sense — it represents the remission of sins by the death of Christ, which was the REAL remission (Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 9:22, 26, 28). He put away sins by the sacrifice of Himself. Baptism no more literally remits sins than the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.

In spiritual EXPERIENCE, this remission of sins comes to us in our hearts through FAITH (Romans 3:24-26; Acts 13:38, 39).

——————————–

As for “Water and the Spirit” in Jn 3:5, Jesus is pointing Nicodemus back to the OT prophecies of the New Covenant that mention “water” and “Spirit” together, and do so clearly and distincly. Hence, in John 3:10, Jesus rebukes Nicodemus for not knowing this - “Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a MASTER of Israel, and knowest not these things?” Nicodemus could not have known about “born again” from the OT, “born again” is not in the OT; but “Water” and “Spirit” are put together, and put together in passages that foresee the new testament salvation promises. For one example, consider Ex 36:25-27 “Then I will sprinkle clean WATER upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you, A new heart also will I give you, and a new SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my SPIRIT within you, and cause you to walk in my statues, and ye shall keep my judgements, and do them.”
Also, Joel 2:28 “And it shall afterward, that I will POUR OUR my SPIRIT upon all flesh..” Joel2:29: “..in those days will I POUR OUT my SPIRIT…”

Jesus describes Nicodemus as a “master of Israel” (v10) the Greek word for “Master” including the meaning of religious teacher. Nicodemus, a teacher of the OT, should have recognized the “water” and “Spirit” passage(s) - they are are “mountain peaks” of New Covenant truth contained in the OT. Jesus would not have rebuked Nicodemus wrongly for not knowing something he could not have known (as mentioned the phrase “born again” is not in the OT); Jesus rebukes him for what He should have known, since “Water” and “Spirt” are clearly given, even “emphasized”.

We have the same mistake repeated now, when NT teachers don’t know that “water” and “Spirit” is in a OT prophecy of NT salvation passage, and that that is what Jesus is referring to in Jn 3:5. In Ez 36, for example, “water” is not baptism. And Jesus’ ref back to OT passage(s) like Ex 36:25-26 to help explain “born again” is to help Nicodemus understand the truth. Jesus does the same thing, ref Nicodemus back to OT passage(s) a few verses later in vs 14, were He refers back to Numbers 21:4-9, on “how” one is to be born again “..v15 immediately follows v14 with “that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life”.

So this “commentary by Jk” that Salvation is by Baptism, does not correspond to the biblical truths alluded to (Jn 3 and Acts 2).

It is perhaps important to point out, that in Ez 36:25-27, that in just 3 verses, the Lord says 7 times “I will”:
“..then WILL I sprinkle..”, “…WILL I clease you..”, “..a new Heart WILL I GIVE YOU..”, “…a new Spirit WILL I PUT within you..”,”..I WILL TAKE AWAY the stony heart..”,”..I WILL GIVE you a heart of flesh..”,”..and I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT within you..”

The passage in Ez, and Joel, and as well Jesus’ statements to Nicodemus in Jn 3 all speak about the same thing: about what God WILL DO, The Lord will Clease, give new life, and these two things (forgiveness-cleasing, and regeneration-new life) are done by the Holy Spirit of God. 1 cor 6:11 “But such were some of you, but ye ARE WASHED, but ye ARE JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, AND BY THE SPIRIT of our God.”

Jesus, in Jn 3 is talking about what God will do, what He has promised to do, by His Holy Spirit in the Hearts of men. This is one of the Keys to understanding this passage in Jn.

Commentary by gm
Posted on: 4/1/2009 08:47 am

1)Dear JK,it seems that your comments give impression to readers that a person is saved by water baptism.Please refer the commentaries for John 3:5.
2)In the O.T.the same Hebrew word “ruach” is used for breath,wind & Spirit.
3)in the N.T. the same Greek word “Pneuma” has been used for breath,wind & Spirit.
4)Jesus Christ has used the imagery of wind to illustrate the act of the Holy Spirit in the work of salvation in us.
5)The origin of the wind is a mystery.The effect of the wind can be observed.
6)The spiritual birth is because of the sovereign operation of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person.Salvation is of God.John 1:13.
7)When a person is saved,a living relationship with Jesus Christ is established.Jesus said,”I am the wine,ye are the branches;he that abideth in me,and I in him,the same bringeth forth much fruit;for without me you can do nothing”.John 15:5..
(i)Holiness:–”ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life” Rom.6:22.
(ii)Fruit of the Spirit:-”But the fruit of the Spirit is love,joy,peace,
longsuffering,gentleness,goodness,faith,meekness,temperance..”Gal.5:22,23.
(iii)Soul winning:-”The fruit of the righteous is tree of life;and he winneth souls is wise.” pro.11:30.Read Dan.12:3
(iv)Praising God:-”By him therefore offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually,that is,the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name.” Heb.13:15.
(v)Financial support to the ministry of God:-”When therefore i have performed this,and have sealed to them this fruit.” Rom.15:28.Read Phil.4:17

Commentary by Alex
Posted on: 1/10/2009 22:26 pm

He does not say, as so many twist him to say “so is the method by which a man is born of the Spirit” but rather he says “so are all the men who are born of the Spirit.” That is, he is not saying that the method of rebirth is unknowable like the wind, but that the person who has been reborn is incomprehensible to the heathen. It is not that we do not know how a man is reborn, but that the heathen do not comprehend the man that has been reborn. For truly, he has already explained how a man is reborn in verse 5, “of water and of the Spirit” which Peter fully elucidates in Acts 2:38 “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” That is, a man is born again of both water and the Spirit at the same time when he repents and is baptized in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as an appeal for forgiveness from sins by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, at which time he receives the Spirit as a gift. In being baptized in water and therein receiving the Spirit as a gift, he is born of water and of the Spirit, all at once.

Commentary by jk
Posted on: 4/18/2008 22:51 pm