Matthew 24: 34 Commentary

Another point re post 175. Angel said “how did moses and so many other bible authors know the name of our planet as “earth?” for it’s mentioned throughout the bible 987 times. the name “earth” is at least only 1000 years old. especially since they were so primitive and such an uneducated civilization?”

First of all, “at least only 1000 years old” seems to be a typo. If it’s “at least” 1000 years old, then it could 2000, 3000, or 100,000 years old. If it’s “only” 1000 then his point would be that … what… Moses invented the word? And what if he did? What’s the point?

In all probability this planet has been known as Earth in all languages since people started talking. It just means solid ground, as opposed to air. If people knew it was a planet, they would have called it Planet. But they didn’t know it was a planet, and so they called it Earth. Likewise Moses would have called it Planet if he knew what it was. But he didn’t know what it was other than earth, so he called it Earth like everybody else.

Sorry, Angel, but your argument doesn’t hold any water… or earth, for that matter!

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 19:18 pm

Re one point in post 175 (I’ll try to get to others later). Angel said: “i am not a methodist, a baptist, a presbyterian, a nazarene, a catholic, a hindu, a taoist, an atheist, a muslim, a buddhist, nor any other accepted religion of this world. for i am a christian, born of water and of the spirit.”

I know it’s semantics, but… well, first I think that some of those denominations you mentioned would rightfully say they are Christians as well. As I am. I think your point is that religion is as one defines it? (I don’t want to put words in your mouth; you can of course clarify what you meant.)

The only reason why I bring this up is because we question each other’s beliefs and lables intolerably here. I am not directing this at Angel. Actually I may have been guilty myself. For example I classify those who deny certain passages of the Bible as unbelievers. But perhaps I shouldn’t do that. And, of course, by the same token, nobody should classify me as anything that I don’t profess to be. This all falls under the requirement of courtesy, which a few seem to have taken vacation from.

Let’s not be too quick to label anybody and instead take them at their word. If Angel feels he does not belong to any accepted religion other than being Christian, I respect that and, by golly, I do share at least this one thing in common with him!

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 19:06 pm

Charles: Is your God named El Elyon?

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 10:11 am

robert:

let me rephrase what i was conveying so you may understand me.

“i am neither a fundamentalist nor a calvinist… for i stand straight; in between.”

here are the principles of a fundamentalist:

(1.) The inspiration of the Bible and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this. (OK TRUE)
(2.) The virgin birth of Christ. (OK TRUE)
(3.) The belief that Christ’s death was the atonement for sin. (OK TRUE)
(4.) The bodily resurrection of Christ. (OK TRUE)
(5.) The historical reality of Christ’s miracles. (OK TRUE)

here are the principles of a calvinist:

(1.) “Total depravity”: This doctrine, also called “total inability”, asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term “total” in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.) (OK TRUE)

(2.) “Unconditional election”: This doctrine asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God’s mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those He has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God. (OK TRUE)

(3.) “Limited atonement”: Also called “particular redemption” or “definite atonement”, this doctrine asserts that Jesus’s substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus’s death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect. The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement. (OK TRUE)

(4.) “Irresistible grace”: This doctrine, also called “efficacious grace”, asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God’s timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that every influence of God’s Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, “graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ.” (OK TRUE)

(5.) “Perseverance of the saints”: Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints (the word “saints” is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven). The doctrine asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return. (OK TRUE)

for you see; i am not a methodist, a baptist, a presbyterian, a nazarene, a catholic, a hindu, a taoist, an atheist, a muslim, a buddhist, nor any other accepted religion of this world.

for i am a christian, born of water and of the spirit.

here is something for you to ponder since you assume to know all truth as others are blinded.

how did moses and so many other bible authors know the name of our planet as “earth?” for it’s mentioned throughout the bible 987 times. the name “earth” is at least only 1000 years old. especially since they were so primitive and such an uneducated civilization?

this kind of knowledge couldn’t of been around in ancient times. all of the planets, except for earth, were named after greek and roman gods and goddesses. the name earth is an english/german name which simply means the ground. It comes from the old english words ‘eor(th)e’ and ‘ertha’. in german it is ‘erde’. and in hebrew “erets.” which is true even to many ancient hebrew manuscripts.

but please; i need a different answer than your obvious; that throughout time it was corrected and changed; by numerous scholars or theologians or whoever; so to fit into the beliefs of that era. please i want to hear this theory of yours since you assume to know me so well.

cause from all your posts it seems you believe in a god but not the power of god; nor that there was one true god but lesser gods which were sons of the one true god; 70 sons to be exact. and the one true god is”el.” also that “yahweh” was one of the 70 sons of “el” and that “yahweh’s” lady was a goddess mentioned throughout the old testament. and that jesus was a good man and an intelligent man, but not god nor anything more. jesus was just a good man with a little rebellion in him.

By angel (wrote 240 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 09:13 am

Ref: # 172

Angel, dear Angel you have a habit of sining (you missed the mark) again. As a case in point, taking a strict literal reading of Biblical text as the undisputed word of God would designate you as a fundamentalist. There can be no argument in fundamentalism for disputing the word, as fundamentalists consider that the Bible is the infallible word of God. You went on to state that fundamentalism was a false perception but as you are wearing rose coloured spectacles you did not recognize yourself as a fundie. That tickled me.

You then asked if I knew what Paul was stating. Yes, I do, do you? I was tempted to go into Paul and his understanding of Jesus, prophecy and all of that but I refrained from doing so, ’cause I can see it would be like caviare to the general. One thing for certain and its immediately apparent here, fundamentalist of all shades cannot handle the truth.

Truth is an absolute. It is the same whether you are a Hindu, Christian or nonbeliever. Absolute truth is only available in the fields of pure logic and mathematics. So what do you oh enlightened one, who is so filled with the Spirit and follow the light think is truth?

Is it no best to take a scientific approach as best you can? Observe things happening. Try to work out why it happens. Test, and see if you are correct. If you are, then great! If not, your idea was wrong or incomplete. The most important aspect of being a freethinking Christian is the willingness to change your mind about what you think, if new evidence comes to light which contradicts what you think.

I do purse truth, knowledge and explanations. When other people claim that something is “true” because they read it in some “holy book,” that God said so and so and they provide no good evidence, then that’s good grounds to put it on the back burner. Doubt as I see it, should be the seed-plot of faith and a questioning faith is healthy. Truth is to be seen, not as once delivered in the past but as emergent and verifiable. Everything else is opinion.

In truth and light

Robert

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_truth_from_an_Atheist’s_point_of_view#ixzz1ePAbiauj

By Robert Louis (wrote 52 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 05:11 am

By the way, carefully rereading the posts, including the # 170, it happened that I had a kind of nightmare, but with an happy end. Here we go:

“Charles this time was in Jerusalem, near the Temple, around the year AD 155. He tied his faithful donkey on a pole (for some reason he has named it Balaam) and started preaching, as usual:

- Do not believe in Matthews, do not believe in Mark, do not believe in Luke. They said that Jesus predicted his second coming still within the generation of his lifetime! This prophecy did NOT come true!!! We are already in 155 and the last person from that generation is now obviously dead! AND WHAT HAPPENED?!! NOTHING!!! As you all know, nobody can live more than 120 years! Pay attention, people from Israel! Jesus, for sure, made a huge, a tremendous mistake!!!

Some orthodox Jews around the Temple heared and loved Charles’ speech. They commented among themselves:

- This man seems being Christian and is telling us that Jesus is a false prophet!!! It is unbelieveble! No one has disauthorized Jesus like that! I think we finally found out our Messiah!!! Let’s test him.

They came until Charles and asked him:

- Who are you, brother?

- I am a believer, an honest believer.

- Believer? What do you believe in?

- In God, an unique God, just, honest, good, loving, merciful.

The Jews thrilled and could hardly contain himself. They added:

- We see you disauthorize Matthew, Mark and Luke. And about John, what do you think about his writings?

- That is the worst scripture. John thinks that Jesus is God!!! Oh darn!

The group of Jews got each time more excited and repeated very happy among themselves: “Oh, my God! My God of this fig tree! He seems being actually our awaited Messiah!!!” And then asked:

- And what do you think about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, GOD OF THIS GENERATION?!

- Monstrous, murder, jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully, in sum a tremendous tyrant, not bound by any moral scruples. Furthermore he mostly does it FOR NO REASON!!!

It is not too difficult to imagine what happened next. There were not enough stones in that place. At the end of the day, the body completely stoned and mangled of poor Charles was taken by Christians to be buried.

The day after the burial, as usual, they prayed all day long for Jesus to do His part and then He finally showed up and, after the usual prayers, resurrected Charles. After that Jesus said:

- Charles, Charles, what is the matter? Stop it! It is the 490th time I ressurrect you since you found that the last person from the generation of my lifetime has died. Is it not enough for you?

- Yes, 70 x 7 is strongly enough - acknowledged Charles.

- Ok, it is actually enough - said Jesus. - I will move you to the year AD 2011. Then you can discuss about my prophecy without being stoned, in your own home, completely secure, behind an amazing machine, ok? I am tired of ressurecting you.

Jesus added patiently:

- Let’s make a bet, Charles: if in 2011 there is no Christianity you’re right: I was wrong in Matthew 24:34 and Christians from the second half of the second century, deeply disappointed because it did not happen my prophesied second coming, have completely abandoned Christianity, since there was no sense to believe in false prophets, in a false God, specially after that “huge mistake”. Agreed?

- I do agree. I have always believed in your wisdom. You inspire me, Jesus.

- I see.

- I’ll have some penitence?

- Oh, yes, yes, Charles, after all your explicit and tiring demonstration of lack of faith and lack of objectivity and common sense, your penitence will be getting stuck on VBVBC.org until you accept me as your Lord and Savior.

After that, my alarm clock rang… Ufa! Thanks God that Charles is alive and in the twenty-first century!

By Eduardo (wrote 30 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 04:15 am

robert:

do you even know what paul was stating?
do you know the spirit and the power of it as stated by paul? cause there is power of the spirit.
and most importantly, what was your god experience like when he called you out of bondage?

by the way “fundamentalism and calvinism are all branches of false perceptions; for the truth lies in the straight.”

and as for your theory of truth; it only relates to man. not god. you seem to really favor in lowering our god to a more accepted platform of conveniences; which makes no sense to me; but hey whatever. your business not mine.

and as for my sinking boat of humor its hilarious and righteous to those of the light. an everlasting power of life.

By angel (wrote 240 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 03:28 am

Hi Angel, Eduardo and Tiuche

Greeting to you all. I see you all have a sense of humour. To me that’s good although to some your jokes are as funny as a hole in a lifeboat.

I think that all of us here on this thread believe that God (El Elyon) was and is an omnipresent God. Yet this God was seen with burning intensity in the full humanity of the one we call Jesus of Nazareth. This God call those who have been divinely created in this God’s image to be the persons God created them to be, for in the fullness of humanity the presence of God can still be experienced. A literal view of Holy Scripture will never lead one to this vision. Saint Luke knew this, and so it was that through his masterful use of symbols he called us beyond his words to a place where we might engage the living Word.

Fundamentalism is so limited. This is why Paul wrote that “the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:6).

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

In Jesus precious name

Robert

By Robert Louis (wrote 52 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 02:41 am

Now Eduardo has joined in this name diversion with Scott and Tiuche. What you three stoogies DON’T and CAN’T talk about is the FAILED PROPHECY of Jesus. You are such losers!

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2011 00:20 am

Hi Tiuche

I refer to your post # 161 and reply as follows:

You said: “I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow creatures happy.”

My response: No I did not say that. Rather Thomas Paine said so and I concur with his words.

“…the God you say you believe in have no name, neither does that God have any instructions to you. In fact that God does not talk to you or do you even pray to Him? That God is just a pigment of your imagination, He does not have any history or appearance in the past to prove He exist!”

My response: Your assumption is erroneous. If you were reading my posts you’ll know that both Charles and I believe in the Supreme God of the Universe – El Elyon, Most High God, possessor of Heaven, Earth, Melchisedec, Priest of El Elyon, King of Righteousness, Peace, Son of the Highest. El Elyon is the true God that Jesus addressed as “Father. “ Yahweh and El Elyon are not the same. Go study the scriptures diligently and you’ll see there is a big difference between the god of war Yahweh who was the god of Judah whose barbaric order was to “kill every man, woman and child of the Amalekites and El Elyon the Highest God and God of Israel.

Have you heard of the J (Y), E, D and P strands? Do you know what these symbols stand for and what biblical scholarship has to say for each with its own agenda that later came to be merged into one continuous biblical narrative. Perhaps you like so many people in the pews have not been introduced to these insights, whether in a refined form or not.

God is by no means a figment of my imagination as you stated, for my experience of Him is very real indeed. I could elucidate and you’ll be astonished at my experiences but I have to respect this thread and exercise some restrain. With your zeal and enthusiasm, for God, you remind me a little of Saul before his conversion to Paul.

You spoke of God giving instructions; you accused both Charles and I of saying the Biblical God lied; you spoke of Jesus Christ and saving me from death and the death penalty; you stated my heart was dark and full of pride …like some kind of sinless mortal and you concluded that I am not fit for the kingdom of God. You then ended by asking if God is not the same God as the God of Abraham and the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

I believe that I have already given you an answer to that. However, you can read my detailed post explaining the difference between Yahweh and El Elyon on this website.

I will now try to address your other points as follows:

I have always said and maintained that God cannot lie and nowhere did we say he did. Jesus on the other hand we believe is not God, although God is in him. I have said it before and I will say again, it is that once error has been discovered in the scriptural text, one must regard all narratives as subject to critical examination and dispute. We cannot get back to a pure objective truth, which is free from subjectivity of personal experience and interpretation. Such subjectivity is present in the accounts we have from the very first. So that simple explosive sentence in Matthew 24:34 undermines for ever the view that divine revelation is given in objective historical events, recorded in divinely protected factual records and interpreted by divinely inspired interpreters with inerrant authority.

You seem to have a concept of God based on what you have read in the “good book.” Now you may have seen what others have said about God and their experiences of Him there but have you tasted of the nectar of God? Light has to be found by oneself, not through another, not through a book, not thru a saint. And we cannot find that light or that understanding through another, because the experience of another may be false. All experiences of another must be questioned whether your own or of another. As a Christian you are conditioned by your culture, by what you believe the Bible says and that background projects every form of experience.

You can practice any amount of prayer, fast until you are blue in the face and all the rest in order to find some reality, some experience; but truth cannot be invited. That which is measurable can come, but not the immeasurable. And a man who is pursuing that which cannot be understood by a mind that is conditioned breeds disorder, not outwardly, but inwardly.

In Galatians 2:20 we read: “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. That’s a powerful verse, do you understand it, not with you head or commentaries Ti…. but with your heart? Is it true to you, for you? Read it carefully and ponder its meaning, are you experiencing this in your life?

When Jesus spoke of God, he meant something very different from what most people mean. For him, God was nothing we can point to. God doesn’t have the kind of concrete reality that normally grabs our minds, and therefore doesn’t strike us in the way other things do.

The religious tradition Jesus inherited said that God created the world out of emptiness. God is a reservoir of infinite possibilities, out of which all things emerge and in which everything happens. Jesus called God abba, the Hebrew word for “father.” He spoke of God in this way because God is the essence of all persons. To be a person is to be an expression of God.

We cannot point to God as a separate entity, but we can know God. Jesus took a step that was contrary to every belief of his culture. He acknowledged that the essence of our humanity, behind our surface thoughts and emotions, is in fact God. Most of us hold back from taking this leap. In fact, we prevent ourselves from accessing such direct knowing. We all have the ability to experience direct knowing any time we need to know what to do. While Jesus taught that God can’t be identified as a separate reality, he insisted that God can be experienced. He realized that in truly knowing himself, he knew God. His self-awareness was the wellspring of his knowledge of God.

In love and light

By Robert Louis (wrote 52 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 23:40 pm

Sorry, I cannot resist.

If there were an alien reading these posts and he was asked: “Does God exist? What’s His name?”, he would have answered with absolute certainty: “That God exists I have no doubt, just do not know if His name is Charles or Robert Louis, maybe Charles Robert Louis: the two are sometimes one.

“And the Holy Spirit?” - someone would ask.

“There is no” - would reply the alien even more convinced.

Good bye, trinity…

By Eduardo (wrote 30 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 23:07 pm

I was going to respond to post 161, but it’s only a diatribe from start to finish. Again, we need to focus on the verse at hand: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Please give your reasons why this prophecy was not fulfilled. Please tell me how smart it is to believe in a book that got it so wrong. Please tell me how holy it is to advance the notion that God made such a huge blunder!

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 20:42 pm

Tiuche, there is only one thing about this verse, and it’s that the world did not end two thousand years ago as Jesus predicted. You admit defeat with every distraction you try to find, and I have to admit that I find your professed love for me rather flattering, even if unwanted. But the fact remains that this prophecy failed.

Got it, Tiuche? PROPHECY FAILED.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 17:17 pm

Charles: You got no name for your god, the term “God: is a a common noun…it is like telling us that your father is a man. I have already asked you several times what is the name of your God? State the truth your god got no name because he is just your imagination! That is the Truth!

You call Jesus an ordinary man? He who rose from the dead is an ordinary man? He who fulfilled the 1st Step in God Redemption Plan is an ordinary man? He who when He spoke even the wind and the seas obey, you think of Him as ordinary? What could i say more? I am tired of talking to you…just let it be! If you don’t want to believe DON’T BELIEVE! Stop talking to me-useless to talked with you! Just post your comment but don’t talk to me,I am free from your blood!

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 17:05 pm

Tiuche, I already told you God is not a horse. You don’t seem to understand the uniqueness of God.

You want to convince everybody that God makes mistakes. He doesn’t. The words of this verse were said by Jesus, not by God.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 16:42 pm

But Charles would give no love…lalalalala lalala…but the air was full of sound….and the prince of the power of the air had deceive those that would give no love…lalalalala lalalala…

While Jesus gave His life for him..telling him he is a sinner in need of a Savior, what does Charles do? He deceives his own self that he really doesn’t need a Savior! He hates the God of the Bible and keep on sour graping the Bible…BUT declares he has his own God, won’t you wonder who the name of his god whom he claims to be SO GOOD, SO MERCIFUL AND SO POWERFUL! Tell us Charles the name of your god?

While our God have many names and nicknames, your god does not even have one? Is he a fake? Or is his name is so sinister that you are ashamed of telling us his name? Tell us his name Charles!

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 10:59 am

Tiuche, every time you bring up this peeve of yours about God not having a name I instinctively start singing “Horse with no name”. I like that song. Horses need names so we can tell one from another. But there’s only one God, so that’s the name.

But I understand your frustration because the Bible has many gods and so you need to name them like horses to tell them from each other.

In the desert you can remember your name
‘Cause there ain’t no one for to give you no pain.
La la la la la la la la la..

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 10:33 am

Robert Louis: Scott Dale is right. You said: “I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow creatures happy.”

This is also the belief of Scott Date & many other Bible believers…the only difference is that the God you say you believe in have no name, neither does that God have any instructions to you. In fact that God does not talk to you or do you even pray to Him? That God is just a pigment of your imagination, He does not have any history or appearance in the past to prove He exist!

While the God of Scott Dale and many other Bible believers…His Acts good or” bad” as you saw many of His Strange acts, are documented through the Scriptures. And that God had a name-in fact He had many names-wherein some of it you blaspheme-treated like it was rubbish-including His highest Name-THE WORD OF GOD!You and Charles have accuse this Biblical God of lying by saying that you donot need His instruction nor the His Savior Jesus Christ to save you from your sins & the death penalty thereof! You are treating the payment of Christ for your sins with scorn- instead you rely on your intellect thinking that you can go to the God you dream of through your own way! But that is just a deception of your own darkened heart-full of pride of yourself…like you are some k ind of sinless mortal man. Such thinking is a thinking that makes you unfit in the presence of your dream God- you have no loyalty to Jesus Christ nor to His Father. You are unfit for the Kingdom that will come unless of course you see how sinful you are just like everyone of us and humble yourself before the God whose strange acts you judge of being CRIMINAL! FUNNY HOW A FRAGILE MORTAL MAN LIKE YOU WANT TO JUDGE THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE! Donot reason that there is another God of which you dream of-for if that god exist, where is He? Is He not the same God as the God of Abraham and the God and Father of Jesus Christ?

By TIUCHE (wrote 2756 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 10:02 am

Ref: # 158

Greetings Charles. You answered Scott correctly. You know what? I read his post and realized he was ignoring the citations I gave on the terrible texts of Yahweh in the OT. His line of defense as you’ll observe is to attack and he can get personal too. As I have said before, I have a thick skin so I pay little attention when one resorts to ad hominem. All, that would be offset if he were to deal with issues. Another thing. It seems to me that the “Prophet” Scott cannot handle the truth. But, I’ll have another go at showing Yahweh - Jehovah in some more gory details.

There are concepts in the Bible that are repugnant to modern man. Yahweh is called “a man of war” (Exod. 15.3) far different from the NT Prince of Peace. Non-Israelite groups such as the Midianites, were ordered to be destroyed by Yahweh (Num. 31:1, 2). Israel obeyed: “They warred against Midian as the Lord commanded Moses and slew every male” (Num. 31:7). They spared the women and children and took as booty all their cattle, flocks and goods (Num. 31:9). So much for “Thou shall not steal”! Then they burnt the Midianite cities (Num. 31:15). He then ordered all the male children to be killed. So much for “You shall do no murder”! Then all the females who were not virgins were ordered to be killed, but Moses allowed the Israelite men to keep all the virgins “for yourself.” So much for “You shall not commit adultery”!

The most disturbing aspect of Yahweh’s humanoid personality, however, is his blood-lust. The smell of burning flesh is a “sweet savour unto the lord” – so sweet, in fact, that the phrase appears in the Old Testament no fewer than twenty-three times. The butchery demanded by Yahweh is truly monumental. Believers are required to sacrifice two lambs day-by-day continuously – and that’s just for starters! Just as well Yahweh had several thousand priests to help him trough through the banquet!

The LORD delivers 10,000 Canaanites and Perizzites for slaughter in Bezek. As part of the fun 71 kings have their thumbs and big toes cut off (Judges 1.2,7).

Livestock bears the brunt of Yahweh’s appetite but humans could so easily get the chop from the big guy. Yahweh kills Uzzah for simply steadying the tumbling Ark (1Chronicles 13.9,10). Poor Onan was zapped for using the withdrawal method of birth control (Genesis 38.10). But such isolated vindictiveness palls in comparison with the mass killings of the Yahweh. When the autocratic Moses faces a rebellion led by Korah, God uses an earthquake and fire to consume two hundred and fifty rebels. When indignant sympathizers protest at the injustice, God wipes out another fourteen thousand seven hundred with a plague (Numbers 16). What a god!

In Joshua’s wars of conquest, Yahweh gets right in there. He throws down “great stones from heaven” (Joshua 10.11) and scores a better body-count than his Israelites with mere swords. When Yahweh gets up a real head of steam the slaughter reaches a truly epic scale. For merely looking into his Ark, Yahweh wipes out fifty thousand and seventy unfortunate men of Bethshemesh (1 Samuel 6.19). When King David slips up and orders a national census, an enraged God zaps seventy thousand.

Quite apart from the celestial superman’s own killing, Yahweh animates his favourites into wiping out whole cities and nations. Jericho, Sodom, Gomorrah, Ai, Makkedah, Libnah etc., etc., are “smote and consumed” – men, women, young, old, ox, sheep and ass!

“You shall annihilate them - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites – as Yahweh your God commanded you.”

– Deuteronomy 20.11,18.

In the largest single god-inspired massacre in the Bible, one million Ethiopians are slaughtered! (2 Chronicles 14).

But then we have been warned, so let me reiterate;

“The Yahweh is a man of war; the Yahweh is his name.” – Exodus 15.3

To Scott and indeed to all biblical literalists I recommend the reading of: “Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine. I’m afraid I have to curtail my post here but before I do, I would like to leave you with one of his following statements that I fully endorse:

“I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow creatures happy.”

In love and light.

By Robert Louis (wrote 52 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2011 05:22 am

I can’t help but smile when I read new “prophecies” that appear from time to time here by people who have clearly lost their argument. Two examples from post 156: “some day science will be turned on it’s ear and all the naysayers will be confronted with the patient Judge that they have so long disregarded” and “Christ will strip all authority from science and then all your reasons will be gone.”

It is a clear admission by Prophet Scott Dale that science and reason are not on his side.

If there is any lesson to take from Matt 24:34 is that prophecies do NOT come true, even when uttered by Jesus Christ.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 13:54 pm

This was in post 152: “So I ask, just exactly HOW is the God of the OT MORE vengeful than the God of the NT???”

Very simple answer. The God of the NT punishes people for their sins while Yahweh kills people for no reason.

By Charles (wrote 1421 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 13:02 pm

Ref:# 156

Thank you Scott for showing the true fruits of your spirit. To be kind, I would hardly say they fall in line with those listed in the NT. But of course while you’re paying lip service to all the Bible, I am sure you can generate a good case for cherry picking what you like and tossing the rest like the fruits of the Spirit out. Of course a dash here and there of ad hominem shows me you have lost the plot.

Moreover, you seem to take issue with reasoning. You said, “reason is only attractive to you when science gives it authority. ” No Scott not true. Reasoning is always attractive to me especially when it stands the litmus test of logic. “Many are destined to reason wrongly; others, not to reason at all; and others, to persecute those who do reason.

In love and light.

By Robert Louis (wrote 52 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 08:59 am

Re # 154

It’s amazing how quickly your commentaries have moved from swill to hogwash (though there isn’t much difference)!

You claim that I am “appealing to emotion and not facts”. Well, just what is it that YOU consider facts? I’ve offered 11 NT texts that rival anything vengeful, spiteful, genocidal, vindictive or wrathful found in the Old Testament; indeed they even TRUMP the horrors of the OT and you say I am appealing to EMOTIONS??

It’s very clear to me just what is going on here. Since you don’t consider biblical prooftexts as fact; you obviously consider something else more authoritative than the Bible. Anyone who has followed your blather would know instantly that you regard science and your own human reasoning higher than the sacred scriptures; but now it’s crystal clear just why you do it. It’s not because science has trumped the one and only Word of God, it’s because you just don’t like what the Bible says about human behavior! According to you and science, sexual orientation is not morally culpable. Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn’t; but what IS morally culpable is sexual BEHAVIOR. Orientation has NOTHING to do with that. You criticize my scriptural facts and then throw Richard Dawkins at me?? Oh, and HE is such an objective, factual authority on morality?? But I see that you feel justified in re-writing the Bible so I suppose Dawkins and kind are valid witnesses to your case.

Go ahead, surely with Dawkins at your side you will be able to stand with confidence before the Judge of all the earth! No doubt, if that holy Judge is the wishy washy all accepting tolerant milquetoast Jesus that you have whittled Him down to be, Dawkins will be far more than an adequate representative. Indeed, you won’t even need him.., no one will. But Jesus doesn’t change just because you say so. Science will not change Jesus; but Jesus will change science! Graves will be opened and death will be forced to relinquish billions of rotted corpses. Some to everlasting life and some to eternal damnation. What do the scientists think of such things? Craziness? Fairy Tales? Isn’t it funny how science can so easily hold to the absurd theory that lower life forms can evolve into higher forms but decomposition cannot re-compose? No doubt, science can explain why. Well, some day science will be turned on it’s ear and all the naysayers will be confronted with the patient Judge that they have so long disregarded. Am I now appealing to emotion? Yes I am because reason is only attractive to you when science gives it authority. But Christ will strip all authority from science and then all your reasons will be gone. What remains will be little more than raw emotion begging and pleading for mercy from the One you claim has made so many mistakes; but pleading will only fall on deaf ears because the time for pleading is NOW while there is STILL time.

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 07:39 am

ref: # 152

In Genesis 19:4-5 we read: “The men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, “Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them.”

And Lot….said, “I pray you, brethren, do not (act) so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes Genesis 19:6-8.

Please read the whole story in context and perhaps you can convey you take on it to me.

In love and light.

By Robert Louis (wrote 52 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 06:30 am

Ref: # 152

You are appealing to emotion and not facts. I have already stated a few passages to demonstrate that Yahweh was ruthless and savage. He commanded the slaughter of whole peoples; he delights in war, as the Lord of Hosts, head of the armies of heaven. His followers are violent and intolerant, hacking down the idols of other faiths and bringing the whole known world into subjugation to their religious law. This may be a big embarrassment for those who like me love peace and strive for moral responsibility.

There are several terrible texts in the OT and I have already listed some in my previous post. But let me take the text in Leviticus 18 and 20, they are simply wrong. Sexual orientation is not a moral choice. It is something to which people awaken. It is therefore not morally culpable.The God who is love, the God who is heard through the words of Jesus promising life more abundantly, the description of the way others will recognize our desire to follow Jesus “by our love,” all are violated if the texts of Leviticus 18 and 20 are given legitimacy. Such terrible texts cannot be allowed to remain in the lexicon of Christian behaviour.

Is it then any wonder that professor Richard Dawkins in his now famous book stated: ” The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

i believe that Yahweh is a tyrant, not bound by any moral scruples but the true God of the universe is just and requires mercy and is nearer to us than the jugular vein.

in love and light

By Robert Louis (wrote 52 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 06:14 am

EDUARDO:

I appreciate the very kind words and I pray no matter were you are; OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST; may always shine and smile upon you. and may all that come unto you be blessed. I shall be here if you ever want to discuss our LORD. You are always in my prayers; may I be in yours. missed but never forgotten my brother.

By angel (wrote 240 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 05:48 am

I have heard some whoppers in my day but post #148 comes close to taking the cake!

This notion that the God of the Old Testament is different from the God of the New Testament needs to be put to rest. It is said that Yahweh in the OT was cruel and vindictive unlike the gracious God of Jesus in the NT. This is nothing more than sickening swill that is cooked up to delegitimize the True God and His one and only Son, Jesus. Those who lap it up do so at their own peril; for thinking they know the way of life, they in fact have eaten from the poisonous tree of Eden and the very darkness and gloom that they attribute to the vengeful God of the OT becomes their very own shroud of shame that will only lead them into deeper darkness. What shall the gracious, loving God of the NT DO with such as these?

“Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” Romans 1

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.” Luke 19

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10

“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!” Luke 12

“These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.” 2Pet 2

“By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” 2Pet 3

“They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.” Jude 1

They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” Rev 6

The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.., From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible. Rev 16

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.., He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.” Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.., The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Rev 19

“But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev 21

So I ask, just exactly HOW is the God of the OT MORE vengeful than the God of the NT???

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 05:25 am

Hi, folks, thank you for the solidarity!

Charles, if you like rhymes, know that I am not a rude drudge, but a good judge, and, indeed, it is my profession.

When I started the debates in here (Post 1 and 2 are mine) I was sincerely concerned with this passage (Matt 24:34) and interpreting the verse literally, what was abating my faith.

During some time I remained confused, going up and down with the sagacious commentaries in this space (that I didn’t know yet), and was so until someone came with deeper words, very patiently, with new, solid and reliable arguments, like an angel.

Yes, it was Angel. He finally convinced me that the expression “this generation” could not be interpreted in a stanch, hermetic way. I have learned a lot of interesting things with you (and I thank you very much for this help), but Angel went beyond and touched me, convinced me. He showed me that he has the gift of the discernment of the spirits, and it is a holy, blessed thing (God bless you, Angel, for your teaching).

So, I have exhausted my motivation to stay here. I will miss Angel, Charles, Tiuche, Scott, Robert Louis and others. Thank you all for the debates. I have learned so much with all the manifestations!

Charles, I still want to be your friend on line, but you must know how to resist a frank debate. Read again all my posts. If you want a false debate don’t count on me. I am not a pharisee. If you interpret my behavior like you interpret Matt 24:34, like I saw in Post 144, I think we have no chance to be friends. But I insist: read again my posts and read your 144.

In fact, I have never said you are dishonest, or liar, or insecure, or uneducated, or a rude drudge, but you did and, even so, you talk about civility! This, yes, is sophism, incoherence and manipulation! I have no doubts about it, but, understand, I am not talking about your personality (I even know you), but about your position, your ideas regarding the topic we are debating. There is an abysmal difference between your words and my words, about your intention and about my intention. You clearly overstepped your boundaries and I don’t embark in this type of conversation.

But if you want an honest debate, without subterfuges, digression of the subject or hysterics, count on me.

God bless you all. Bye.

By Eduardo (wrote 30 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/20/2011 04:24 am