Julius,

The reason I do not pursue most authors is because they do not address the discrepancies so often associated with their thesis. You can easily see this “attitude” in the past postings of this dialogue. Most important questions I have posed are deflected or out rightly ignored. In addition, I’ve noticed that most authors fail to recognize & consider some very simple “quirks” that so often sets their thesis into circular reasoning.

For instance, who says there is only one tribulation? Thinking there is one long GREAT tribulation has pitted pre-tribbers against mid-tribbers, against post-tribbers. All three “camps” of thought never stop to think that there are multiple tribulations, the very last being the greatest of them all; thus, the reason Jesus calls it THE GREAT TRIBULATION. The result is that when these theologian/author attempt to prove their thesis on one tribulation, they are already at a disadvantage because they cannot formulate a proper timeline . . . . because the foundation of their timeline is compromised.

Jesus lists multiple tribulations that come before the GREAT TRIBULATION. There are wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilences . . . . which he calls the “begging of sorrows”. (Matt 24:8, Mark 13:8) The word means “birth pangs”. These all occur before the abominations of desolations is revealed . . . . after which the GREAT TRIB is unleashed.

I see each seal and each trump as a tribulation in and of itself. They are separate events with heavy outcomes. And I see the GREAT TRIB as only that event when God has removed believers from the earth (either by rapture or martyrdom) and now the last judgment comes down upon the wicked of the earth. Made up of the 7 vials, the GREAT TRIB comes after the seals & trumps. And the “catching up” of believers happens during the time of one of God’s trump (1 Thess 4:16); more specifically, the last trump (1 Cor 15:52).

And if believers are not “caught up” to God until the last trump (there are seven trumps in the book of Rev), then does said believers experience the trumps that precede the last trump (there would be 6 trumps)? And since simple math suggests believers will then experience the 6 preceding trumps, would that constitute believers experiencing the “beginning of sorrows” (Matt 24:8, Mark 13:8) and even the advanced birth pangs (Rev 12:2)?

What are these world events found in the 6 trumps?

Commentary by Fozman
Posted on: 1/7/2010 05:11 am

Thanks for your “Verse by Verse” site. Interestingly, John Darby’s pretrib rapture basis for 30 years was the Rev. 12:5 (symbolic) “man child” that is caught up - symbolism that he “borrowed” from Edward Irving who had already been using this symbol for the same pretrib purpose eight years before Darby adopted it. I found these details in Dave MacPherson’s bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books online). Speaking of prophecy, I found a rather unusual article “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice” on the Dec. 29th version of Joe Ortiz’s “End Times Passover” blog. The world sure is getting interesting, right? Julius

Commentary by Julius
Posted on: 1/5/2010 06:58 am

You are right about the Cumbra Vieja volcano in the Caharies. I Google earthed it and looked at many of the local photos and it looks like the entire south end of the island is a mile high and very loose rock. Plus most of it is underwater so there is a boatload of debris ready to slide away. It will probably go off on its own without any outside influence needed.
As for Yellowstone, it has recently become very active and it is already 40,000 years overdue for an eruption. If it were to be struck by a meteor that would likely trigger the eruption by creating a crater and reducing the overburden allowing the magma to escape - similar to when an earthquake caused a landslide on the north side of Mt. St. Helens causing a northward directed eruption rather than the vertical one everyone was expecting.
That could be the trumpet of rev 9:1-3. This verse even explains how the smoke darkens the sun and sky. The Yellowstone magma chamber has just been found to go very deep into the mantle - easily seen as a bottomless pit.
Its amazing that as crazy as the judgements sound, we can find matching natural disasters ready to happen - all around the same time. It also looks like My Vesuvius is going to wipe out Naples as well in the near future.
And have you seen the show on Bible Code where they found two references to a comet in 2012? One that will possibly hit the earth, not the kind you watch with a telescope. I’m not sure if the bible code theory is sound but I sure find it interesting. It makes me wonder when the seals will be opened. Perhaps sooner than we thought - prior to the tribulation period and well before any rapture. We may find out soon.

Commentary by Jimbo
Posted on: 12/8/2009 10:42 am

Jim,

I’m in much agreement with you assessment of the blood moon, dark sun, etc, etc, etc, stuff. As I see it, if scripture is truly suggesting a blood moon event, only a couple scriptures would address that, and they are not necessarily in the trumpet judgments. Those scriptures that also speak of the sun/moon not giving light in conjunction with the stars falling cannot be a blood moon event. This is where some of the “blood moon” web-site-ministries muff it up. They see a couple of corresponding attributes and then make the mistake of dialing in the entire package. They fail to stop and even consider that there may be multiple events being described; that is to say, both a blood moon event causing the moon to turn to blood AND other catastrophic cosmic events causing the moon to turn red along with along with falling stars. The delineating factor that I see is those passages speaking of the stars falling from heaven in conjunction with a sun & moon description. Sounds like meteor showers, which a blood moon event could never produce. But the bottom line is that I believe there is a great possibility that different passages are describing two or more events; a blood moon may be just one of them . . . but your spot on when you say a blood moon is no description of the trumpet judgments.

However, their affiliation with 2015’s Passover and Tabernacles is no small matter either.

I, too, have speculated as to Near-Earth-Objects; especially Apophis. However, I just saw a program on National Geo where a few thousand pound meteor showed up unexpectedly an exploded in the atmosphere somewhere in the middle of no-where over Africa or Arabia. It had the energy of an atomic bomb. The point is, our scientists cannot discern even big objects until its too late.

Regardless, any type of significant meteor/comet strike that does the damage of Wormwood would most probably infuse the atmosphere with a tremendous amount of debris and dust. The debris will fall back as the meteor showers (falling stars), the dust would affect the light wave-lengths you spoke of. I’ve heard of the moon turning to blood in areas of intense volcanic dust in the atmosphere for that very reason. A large cosmic strike could easily do that, and produce the magnitude of destruction suggested in the 7 Seals & 7 Trumps. (I, too, have been studying both intensely of late . . . . such the reason to challenge the blogs to raise some dust of my own. Much can be gleaned in heated discussions.)

Would that mountain you hinted at be in the Canary Islands off the Coast of Africa? Sounds like one of the Islands is ready to cave into the ocean and send a 300 foot, 500 mph tsunami into America’s eastern seaboard. I also wonder about any scripture that might hint at the Yellowstone caldera popping off . . . . or a combination of all the above. In other words, could a large cosmic strike produce enough energy to explode Yellowstone and collapse that island in the Canary’s? Time will tell.

Commentary by Fozman
Posted on: 12/7/2009 10:33 am

I think you are falling into a common trap about the blood red moon. The prophecy is not describing a lunar eclipse. I am assuming you are referring to Rev 6:12/13. There stars fall from the sky and produce a great earthquake and the sun and moon are darkened. Besides studying to be an astronomer when I was a kid I later took over 100 units of geology in college so this stuff is right up my alley. I have been studying the trumpet judgements of chapter 8 and have been looking for possible natural disasters that are likely to occur soon. The star wormwood that falls from the sky could be the apophis asteroid scheduled to come within just a few hundred miles of earth in 2029. If its orbit is angelically nudged it could hit the earth and cause a humongous earthquake and kick so much dust into the atmosphere we would experience near-darkness and virtual winter for years. This is what killed off the dinosaurs and most other life on earth 65 million years ago.
So the sun moon and stars “shall not give their light” and due to the scattering of shorter wavelengths of light, the sun will always look like it does at sundown (red) and because the moon is dimmer, will appear as an even deeper shade of red. While its true that the moon also appears blood red during an eclipse, that is due to the bending (refraction) of red light as it passes thru the atmosphere of the earth allowing it to reach the hidden moon. Interestingly, if the atmosphere was filled with dust, even the red wavelengths would be absorbed and the moon would not even be visible during an eclipse.
Some folks go as far as to assume the sun being darkened is a solar eclipse, but you can’t have them both at the same time. There is often a lunar eclipse 2 weeks after a solar eclipse - that is so common as to be totally uneventful. I can’t believe that a trumpet judgement could be as trivial as an eclipse. I think its going to be way more spectacular. Wouldn’t you agree?
Hope this gets you thinking some more.
Jim
I believe I also know where the mountain of fire that falls into the sea is located - a disaster predicted by scientists for the last 25 years and which they say is already 50 years overdue - kind of like the “Big One” we’ve been waiting for here in So. Cal for 30 years now. I believe it may be waiting for the tribulation and by that time it will be a whopper. NOT looking forward to it.

Commentary by Jimbo
Posted on: 12/7/2009 01:06 am

Hi fozman,
I’ve been thinking more about the Rev 12 / Virgo connection I checked out yesterday and I now believe 5n the connection to the constellation as well as the feast of trumpets. I don’t know why I didn’t recognize it right away. It obviously represents a virgin giving birth to a man child on the feast of trumpets. Thanks again for the insight.

Commentary by Jimbo
Posted on: 12/7/2009 00:25 am

Let me start with the word Kings. I have no problem believing that a king represents his kindom as he is not much of a king without it. The terms are interchangeable. If you can claim that a mark is a chip i can say a king is his kingdom. Its not a stretch - unless you are desperate to disprove it.
As for the 7th head (the revived roman empire) lasting a short space, well the EU doesn’t become official until Jan 1, 2010. It will only last until christ returns. Compared to the original roman empire, this will definitely be a short space.This has nothing to do with Napoleon. By the way, was John supposed to use the word “Gun” instead of sword? What was the greek word for gun in the year 95? Also, it is not the pope that receives the wound, it is the beast - the vatican itself. For a while it looked like the vatican system was dead - never another pope. But it’s baaaaack! The beast is not the pope, the false prophet is. He issues the mark but the term beast is kind of used loosely in revelation.

As for rev 17, thats the future - during the tribulation. Im not talking about that here.

As for persecution fitting other people or empires, so what? John was simply describing the vatican. It fits. Don’t be like the people that say that the city of the seven hills the woman sits on could be any one of over 25 cities worldwide that are built on 7 hills. John was talking about Rome. He shouldn’t have to explain why all other possibilities are wrong. Same for Hitler and Stalin. They don’t fit since they didn’t kill the beast. Napoleon did.

The vatican in fact did exersize the mark of the beast after the council of laodicea they began forced Sunday worship and martyred millions for not cooperating. (remember, 7th dayers don’t believe the mark is a chip but a breaking of the 4th commandment.)

The vatican has had many saints that all must have performed at least two verifiable miracles to achieve sainthood. They are full of niracles.
The vatican did have authority over ALL the nations in the Holy roman empire. Never assume the word all meand every single person on the planet. God only cares about his people and his church. And the church has expanded to include the whole world - there are christians in virtually every country on earth. Remember prophecy is largely told in symbolism so you can’t take every single word literally, but you already know that.
The RCC is not the 8th king(dom). That is the revived holy roman empire, something the new EU is already claiming to be. They claim to be in the spirit of Charlemagne - the first holy roman emperor. When the vatican (actually the new one-world church under the pope) merges officially with the EU, probably during the tribulation, the prophecy will be completed, but it will only last a very short time (one hour) before christ returns.
Please dont give me a literal hour. We know that prophetic time is often not literal. The church does ride on the vatican system which is the second beast or the 6th king(dom).
Those last ten horns have not yet appeared and the vatican is not yet destroyed, but we can agree that it will be. I doubt that those horns will just be persons. It would be hard to belive the the entire vatican could be taken down by only ten kiings or leaders. They will need help from their kingdoms, don’t you think?
So if the first beast wasn’t the holy roman empire what was Daniel describing? He has it coming right out of the end of the roman beast empire. And we know he always used the year for a day so if he was not describing that has already happened, then when your 5th kingdom (first beast) shows up we will have to wait 1260 years before it is finished. And then we have to wait for the next beast, then the 7th king, then the eighth. If thats the case than we might as well forget the prophecy - it’s not for our times.
And how do you account for the exact match in the duration of the beast as 1260 years. Daniel nailed it as usual. John simply referred to his prophecy. In fact virtually all of revelation can be found in the old testament, somewhere. Or so I’ve heard.
Anyway, i hope i have cleared up the interpretation at least to some extent. I learned it years ago but I had to read the chapter many times to see the fit. But it won’t work if your mind is already closed to it so i suggest you clear your mind of preconceptions and take a fresh look. You will feel much better when you realize the word of God is true. He predicted the history of the holy lands from Babylon to the present. He didn’t leave a 2000 year gap in it either. Believe me it is a wonderful revelation to see all that prophecy having happened and knowing that there is so little left before christ returns. (Except of course for that nasty tribulation - or for you the free pass rapture).
In any case i will pray that you see the light. If I’m wrong I guess we will be here blogging for the next millennium. God save my poor neuropathic fingers!

Commentary by Jimbo
Posted on: 12/6/2009 15:42 pm

And now in reference to the study you sent me. . . .

First, I believe the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) leadership is without a doubt “antiChrist”. (And I believe the Vatican has been and always will be the fulfillment of the whore described in Rev 17.)

Jesus and the apostles taught antiX was already among them (1 John 2:18: ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.) I conclude from John that there is a difference between “antiX” and THE “antiX”. As for the Popes having the 666 equate to their name and or title . . . . yes, many did. So to, did Nero, Ronald Regan, George Bush, and Prince Charles of Whales. Interesting facts on Prince Charles: his Coat of Arms includes the “little horn”, the Red Dragon, and all the images included in Rev 13’s beast. (As you put it . . . . “Coincidence?”) Google it.

Unfortunately, theologians too often fail to realize there are/were many antiX’s. And too often they seem to believe the word “beast” found in our English translations refer to the same thing. Yet, even the four creatures that worship God around his thrown are called “beasts.” (Rev 4:6,8,9 – 5:6,8, 11, — 6:1,6,8 – and more).

My point? The “beasts” one passage is referring to may not be the “beast” another passage is referring to.

The beast I am referring to is spelled out in Revelation 17:12 “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”

I note that the 10 horns are called “kings” not “kingdoms”. The passage you provided me in Dan 7:24 also identifies the 10 horns as “kings” not “kingdoms”. A word study on the word “horn” and its usage demonstrates a constant throughout the bible that that word “horn” refers to a person, not a kingdom. Even Messiah is referenced as the horn of Israel (Note: horn = Messiah = 1 person. Israel is not called the horn.)

But I see people taking the liberty to morph the word “king” into the word “kingdoms.” And with just a little changing of God’s word the 10 horns become “kingdoms.” Of course, this gives them a new platform they can launch their doctrine from.

Sorry; this is where I draw the line. I will not change what the word says. Morphing “kings” into “kingdoms” changes the word of God. Changing even a jot or a title of God’s word is an activity which has some rather strong rebukes given against in God’s word. It is a double standard, and it eliminates any form of consistency and the absoluteness of God’s word. The Catholic Church does this without a second thought to justify their dogmas and traditions. Have we stooped to their standards?

Want more proof the 10 horns are 10 individuals as opposed to 10 kingdoms?

Examine Rev 17:12 “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten KINGS, which have RECEIVE NO KINGDOM as yet . . . .”

How can a kingdom receive a kingdom? They cannot. Kings receive a kingdoms, just as the above passage specifically states. And the last time I checked, Kings are individual persons.

Examine Rev 17:16-17 “And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore . . . (17) For God hath put in THEIR HEARTS to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give THEIR kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.”

First, kingdoms don’t have “hearts” to be filled with hate. Second, the 10 horns are described with the pronoun “THEIR”. Third, kingdoms do not give kingdoms. Kings do. They give their kingdoms to the beast.

And looking to your scenario, I must ask the question, “How many years unfolded in the events surrounding your scenario of the Napoleon/Vatican conspiracy?” I ask this because I have to account for that part of scripture that states the 7th head that “continues for a SHORT SPACE.” I also have to account for the 10 horns for “receiving power with the beast for 1 hour.” (Rev 17:10-12) “1 hour” is a metaphor for a very “short time.”

I have to account for such things.

Now, maybe you don’t have to account for such scriptures. But I attempt to live by a different standard. My standard is to account for ALL-ALL-ALL the attributes given in scripture, just not those that conveniently support a specific agenda. When I before the Lord, I want to tell him with confidence that I applied such a standard before calling myself a teacher of his word.

I cannot account for Napoleon’s activities (as well as the Vatican’s) constituting “continuing a short space” and receiving power for “one hour.”

Then there’s the comment, “He that leadeth into captivity . . . .” describing Napoleon’s actions to a tee. . . . Well, it also describes most dictators, rulers, kings, and fore the most any other human being (that employs the actions described by Jesus) to a tee. Or do you think Stalin, or Hitler, or Mou never put people into captivity? I find the attempt to pin this specifically on Napoleon simply amazing. Oh, by the way, did Napoleon literally use a sword (since this is supposedly is a literal fulfillment by Napoleon)? I thought they used fire arms back then. And is it the pope or the Vatican corporate that is the beast, because the pope that allegedly died in prison did not die of a sword strike, nor was he resurrected again to rule again (as the beast is said to). And if the beast is the Vatican, well, the entire Vatican corporate was never imprisoned, much less died there. That is to say, all the kings horses and all the kings men were still quite alive and functioning as a corporation.

I quote “And all the attributes given to the beast in revelation 13 fit the catholic church (persecuting the saints - including the woman of rev 12 - during the inquisition etc.) perfectly.”

What?

First, maybe the persecution part perfectly fits the Vatican. But it perfectly fits anyone or any kingdom or any religion that persecuted and persecutes Xians. Or is the Vatican the only corporate body to kill Xians?

No, very few of the attributes of Rev 13 fit the Vatican. I note that the Vatican never did miracles or caused fire to come down from heaven causing ALL-ALL-ALL the world to wonder (Rev 13:13). The Vatican never produced the mark of the beast and attempt to burned said mark into the forehead and right hand of ALL-ALL-ALL the peoples of the earth (Rev 13:17). The Vatican never employed a world wide financial system founded with said mark. The Vatican was never given power/authority over ALL-ALL-ALL kindreds, and tongues, and nations (Rev 13:7) The Vatican never received the worship of ALL-ALL-ALL that dwell upon the earth shall (Rev 13:8).

Please account for these attributes, because I have to.

Finally, the RCC is not the 8th head. Rather, the RCC is the whore. My bible says the beast carries the whore. I must conclude that the 7th head (which is the 8th head) is a world leader who carries the woman/whore; the RCC (Rev 17:7) You cannot be both the beast and the whore. The scriptures I provided you differentiates the two. And the 10 horns will make the whore desolate, naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire; that is to say, utterly destroy her). When was the Vatican finally eradicated by anyone in history. I guess never, cause they’re still here.
Jimbo, the stuff your teaching may be a partial fulfillment based on allegory. But when all the “attributes” articulated in scripture are applies, your system falls apart.

Or can you account for the things I listed above?

Because I have to.

Commentary by Fozman
Posted on: 12/6/2009 12:58 pm

Not when applied to the 70 Weeks of Daniel, which nearly all scholars do call years.

In which case it equals 3.5 years . . . . just as I have attempting to convince you of (3.5 years, not 1260 years.)

Commentary by Fozman
Posted on: 12/6/2009 12:54 pm