Revelation 12: 1 Commentary

The parable of the persecuted woman starts with this verse.

By Roland G (wrote 1416 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2011 12:00 pm

The Law of God is also compared to an adorned bride who appears with most beautiful ornaments, as it has been said in chapter 21 of the Revelation of St. John: “And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”[1] And in chapter 12, verse 1, it is said: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” This woman is that bride, the Law of God that descended upon Muhammad. The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two nations which are under the shadow of that Law, the Persian and Ottoman kingdoms; for the emblem of Persia is the sun, and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and moon are the emblems of two kingdoms which are under the power of the Law of God. Afterward it is said: “upon her head is a crown of twelve stars.” These twelve stars are the twelve Imams, who were the promoters of the Law of Muhammad and the educators of the people, shining like stars in the heaven of guidance.
[1 Rev. 21:2.]

(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 67)

By V. James (wrote 132 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/3/2011 19:36 pm

Novoline says “Truly a good comment. I am going to visit www.vbvbc.org many more times.

By Roland G (wrote 1416 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/19/2011 19:40 pm

Wahrhaftig ein guter Kommentar. Ich werde www.vbvbc.org mal mehr besuchen

By Novoline knacken (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/19/2011 18:50 pm

Richard, his is the longest Bible Commentary I’ve seen so far. I need a day off to read it all You said “We have communicated before about our post-trib Bible beliefs.”, but the footer of your comment (that appeared after scrolling for 1o minutes) indicates that you only wrote one commentary. Where can I found the rest of this communication? Maybe you used another screen-name.

By Jeremy Sündholm (wrote 45 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/12/2011 21:33 pm

Dear brother in Jesus,

We have communicated before about our post-trib Bible beliefs. With the WAR in Libya causing oil prices to skyrocket the cost of transporting greatly inflated food prices caused by the greatest wheat and corn FAMINES in history will skyrocket even higher. Food riot REVOLUTIONS are rapidly spreading in the Mid East; throughout Europe and the rest of the world as the cost of a loaf of bread already costs a full days wages {as per Rev 6:6} in over 40 countries. AND NOW THE GIANT EARTHQUAKE AND TSUNAMI IN JAPAN!! There have been 3 times more USA tornadoes in April 2011 then any other month in recorded history!! Jesus confirmed that famines, earthquakes and revolutions will occur just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24:7-9 any many feel that the future False Prophet of 666 may already be here. Please call me anytime at 863-651-4426.

Richard
THE JESUS CAR AND A MINI NOAH’S ARK
WE ARE ALL EAGERLY WAITING FOR OUR GLORIOUS ETERNAL RENDEZVOUS WITH JESUS!  
 
I Peter 1:13: “Therefore, prepare your minds for ACTION, and set your hope *FULLY* on the grace to be given YOU when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED*. I Cor 1:7: “YOU do not lack any spiritual gift as YOU eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be *REVEALED*.” Now the pre-tribbers claim that this glorious *REVEALING or *REVELATION* of Jesus will be *CONCEALED* BEFORE the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  However, every other time the Word *REVEALED* {Greek-Apocalipsis} is used related to resurrection events it refers to the glorious REVEALING of Jesus on the *LAST DAY* of the Great Tribulation {See 2 Thess 1:7-10 & Luke 17:26-31}. And *CONCEALED* is the exact opposite of *REVEALED* and *APPEARED* according to every dictionary!  Titus 2:13:

Titus 2:13: “*WE* wait for the *BLESSED HOPE*—the glorious *APPEARING* of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  Hebrews 9:28 “Jesus will *APPEAR* a 2nd time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him!”  Matthew 24:29,30: Jesus says, “IMMEDIATELY AFTER the distress of those days {The Great Tribulation} the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will *APPEAR in the sky and the nations will *SEE* the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory!!” I John 2:28: “Dear children, continue in Him, so that when He *APPEARS* WE may be confident and unashamed before Him at His COMING!” {See 2 Thess 1:7-10; I Tim 6:14; Heb 9:28 & Col 3:4}  2 Tim 4:8: Paul said, There is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on THAT DAY—and not only to me, but to *ALL who have longed for His *APPEARING*!!”

A meeting at an appointed place and time is called a RENDEZVOUS. We have a RENDEZVOUS with eternity at the glorious *APPEARING and *REVEALING of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ *IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.

God has always allowed His people to suffer tribulation and trials because they purify and perfect their faith and will gain countless eternal rewards when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED. There are over 40,000 saints martyred every year and the main culprit is no longer just Islam and the RC Church. The Main culprits now are the 21 Muslim countries and Korea, China, Sudan, Venezuela, Nigeria and the RC Church. Millions of saints were martyred after 1917 in Russia and after 1948 in China. Romans 8:35-37: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?… For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us!” I Peter 1:6-8:  “In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED.” 

I Peter 2:20b,21: “But if you suffer for doing good and endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow IN HIS STEPS.” I Peter 4:12,13: “Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But REJOICE that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is *REVEALED!” Read other persecution verses: Matthew 5:10-12; Romans 5:3; Heb 13:35-40; 2 Tim 3:12; 2 Cor 1:7-10; I Thess 3:3,4; Phil 1:29; Phil 3:10; Rev 12:11; Rev 13:9,10 & Rev 14:13.

       The courageous and faithful Tribulation saints will *NOT* be hurt by God’s *WRATH* as shown in Rev 14:9-11; 15:1,7; 16:1,19; or in any of the 7 trumpet or 7 bowl plagues as explained in Rev 9:4,20,21 and Rev 16:2,4-6,9,10,21; or in any of the plagues of God’s 2 witnesses as per Rev 11:6,10; or in *ETERNAL HELL*: Rev 14:9-11: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of *HIS WRATH*.  He will be tormented with burning sulfur and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.”

The pre-tribs often confuse the wrath of God with the persecution from the anti-christ. They are not the same thing. The wrath of God is intended for the ungodly and will be poured upon them and them only. The Lord knows His target and He never misses. Jesus warned in Matthew 10:28, “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

In Rev 18:1-24 we read about the plagues that will destroy the headquarters of 666 during the Great Tribulation. This evil city on 7 hills {See Rev 17:9} is called “Babylon” which Peter implied was the nickname for Rome in 2 Peter 5:13. In Rev 18:4 a voice from Heaven will order God’s saints to stay away from Babylon {Rome-That great seaport-Rev 18:17-19} so that they will not participate in her sins or be hurt by God’s wrath which will completely destroy Rome with many horrific plagues. There are 260 verses from Revelation chapters 6 thru 20 and 128 of these verses or 49% tell of the wrath of God to unbelievers, 666, his False Prophet and Rome. However, not even one of these verses tells of any wrath of God toward His courageous Tribulation saints. Even pre-tribbers and mid-tribbers like yourself reluctantly agree that believers during the Great Tribulation will be exempt from the wrath of God.

Matthew 24:3:: The disciples asked Jesus, “What will be the sign of your coming and the END of the age?

Matthew 24:7b,8 tells about events to occur JUST BEFORE the Great Tribulation mentioned in Matt 24:9-13.

In Matthew 24:7b,8 Jesus says, “There will be FAMINES and EARTHQUAKES in various places. These are the BEGINNING of birth pains.” And in Luke 21:9 Jesus prophesied “When you hear of wars and REVOLUTIONS {Such as Libya, Egypt, Algeria, Syria, Bahrain, Morocco, Sudan, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Iraq etc} do not be frightened. These things must happen first.” With the WAR in Libya causing oil prices to skyrocket the cost of transporting greatly inflated food prices caused by the greatest wheat and corn FAMINES in history will skyrocket even higher. Food riot REVOLUTIONS are rapidly spreading in the Mid East; throughout Europe and the rest of the world as the cost of a loaf of bread already costs a full days wages for over 2 billion people {as per Rev 6:6} in over 40 countries.

  Matthew 24:3,9-13:  The disciples asked Jesus, “What will be the sign of your Coming and the end of the age?? Jesus answered….. {During the Great Tribulation} “Then *YOU* will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and *YOU will be hated by all nations because of Me.  At that time many will turn away from the Faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of *MOST* will grow cold,{THE GREAT APOSTASY} but he {The Called, Chosen & Faithful-Rev 17:14b} who stands firm to the End will be saved.”

2 Thess 2:1,3: “Concerning the Coming of our Lord Jesus and *OUR being gathered to Him…That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first!!” {NIV – Rebellion} It is estimated that there are about 800 million people who claim to be Christians out of the 7 billion people on earth. There are probably about 134 million saved evangelicals which leaves about 666 million who will fall away and follow 666. There will probably be about 6 billion 666 million people who will follow 666 so they can buy and sell everything; which leaves about 200 million that may be saved from every nation tribe and language as per Rev 7:9-14. Matt 7:13,14: Many follow the road to destruction and only a few find the road to life. These numbers are, of coarse, just a speculation. Read Revelation 12:11 & 13:10!!

The pre-tribbers claim that the “YOU” in Matthew 24:9 above are Jews only and that much of Matthew was only written for Jews like Matthew chapters 5-7. Which is of course completely ridiculous since Jesus said to His 11 Apostles in Matthew 28:19,20 “Go and make disciples of *ALL NATIONS*…teaching them to obey *EVERYTHING* I commanded you!”  {Read John 12:48 & John 14:23}  I John 2:3,4,6:  “We know that we have come to know Him {Jesus} if we obey His  commands.  The man who says, ”I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him… Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did.” According to Rev 12:17 the Tribulation Saints will also “Hold to the testimony of Jesus!”

  Now the pre-tribbers claim that the phrase “His elect” in Matt 24:31 & Mark 13:27 refers only to Jews which is, of course, ridiculous and is refuted in Romans 10:12: “For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all.” Galatians 3:28,29: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise!!” Read Ephesians 2:11-22!! See “GOD’S ELECT” in 2 Tim 2:10, Titus 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:1,2.

Hebrews 11:39,40: These {OT saints mentioned in Heb 11:4-38} were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planed something better for US {NT Saints} so that only TOGETHER WITH US {NT saints} WOULD THEY {OT saints} BE MADE PERFECT.”{Receive new heavenly bodies-See I Cor 15:49-52}}

WHO IS THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12 AND WHO ARE HER OFFSPRING??

Galatians 4:22,23,28,30,31: Abraham had 2 sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the Free Woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a “PROMISE”!….You brother, like Isaac {Sarah’s son}, are children of “PROMISE”….The slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the Free Woman’s son. Therefore, brothers, **WE** are not children of the slave woman {Hagar} but of the Free “WOMAN”{Sarah}!! According to Galatians 3:16 Jesus is also the offspring of Abraham and Sarah {See Rev 12:5!!}

Just before the coming of 666 and the 1260-day or 42-month Great Tribulation in Revelation 13:1 we read in Rev 12:17; 13:1,5,7: Then the dragon {Satan} was enraged at the woman {Sarah} and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–THOSE WHO OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENTS AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS!!” And the dragon {Satan} stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw Beast {666} coming out of the Sea {Or Abyss or Hell as per Rev 11:7 & 17:8 & Luke 8:31}…..The Beast will exercise his authority for 42 months….. He will be given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he will be given authority over **EVERY** tribe, people, language and nation.

And so according to Rev 12:6,14 Satan will attack some of God’s saints but they will be protected in God’s sanctuary in the wilderness for 1260 days. Then in Rev 12:17 Satan will attack the rest of God’s saints “WHO OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENTS AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS” **just before** the coming of 666 and the beginning of the 1260-day or 42-month Great Tribulation.

And so Revelation 12 also shows that the pre-trib rapture of God’s courageous saints at the beginning of the Great Tribulation is a ridiculous fairy tale. Since some of God’s saints will be protected in the wilds for 1260 days and Satan will make war with the rest of God’s saints WHO OBEY GOD’S COMMANDEMENTS AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS JUST **BEFORE** THE COMING OF 666!!

Revelation 12:11: “They overcame him {Satan} by the blood of the Lamb and by the Word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.”

God will miraculously take care of His Faithful and Courageous Tribulation Saints {Just as he took care of the Israelites for 40 years in the Wilderness} even though they won’t be able to buy or sell anything as per Rev 13:17a. {See Matthew 6:25-34 where storing up items are forbidden}  Can God’s NT saints go through the Great Tribulation without suffering the wrath of God, as did the OT saints in Egypt when God sent many horrific plagues on Egyptians because of Pharoah. Remember the 3 Jewish saints who were not delivered from going through the fiery furnace which was heated 7 times hotter than usual. Indeed they went right through the middle of that persecution and the Lord Jesus went through it with them. Yet another example of God sending His saints through tribulation rather than keeping them from it, is Daniel being thrown into the den of hungry lions. He went right through the middle of that persecution, but God sent an angel to close the mouths of the lions. That great saint brought much glory to God in that tribulation.

This will come as a tremendous shock for those who teach the Prosperity Gospel and who are mainly seeking earthly treasures rather than eternal Heavenly Rewards. They teach: If you accept Jesus as your Savior you have a free pass to Heaven and God forbid that you should suffer any persecution or go through the Great Tribulation; which fits in with the pre-trib doctrines which are designed to increase church membership at the expense of the Truth. When is the last time you heard a sermon on the virtues and courage of the many thousands of present-day martyrs?? And this is probably why there will be a great FALLING AWAY {THE GREAT APOSTASY} at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

There are some pre-tribbers who wrongly teach that ALL of God’s Tribulation saints will be martyred during the Great Tribulation. This belief is refuted in Rev 13:9,10 & Mark 13:20: Revelation 13:9,10: “He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.” Mark 13:20: Jesus says, “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has shortened them.” How much the Great Tribulation will be shortened will be shown later.

Rev 6:9-11: When He {Jesus} opened the 5th seal, I saw the souls of those who had been slain {Just like Jesus} because of the testimony they had maintained.  They called out in a loud voice, “How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”  The each of them was given a *WHITE ROBE*, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. Rev 7:9,13,14,15a,17a:  “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from *EVERY* NATION, TRIBE, PEOPLE  AND LANGUAGE, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb {Jesus}.  They were wearing *WHITE ROBES*…Then one of the {24} elders {Rev 4:4} asked me, “These in *WHITE ROBES*—who are they and where did they come from?”… And he said, “These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; {Martyrs just like Jesus} they have washed their robes and made them WHITE in the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* {Jesus}. They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night… The Lamb {Jesus} at the center of the throne will be their Shepherd.” {See Rev 12:11 & Rev 13:8-10}  

This passage in Rev 7:9 above shows that the Great Tribulation will be mainly for Christians in *EVERY Gentile nation and not just Jacob’s Jewish trouble which absolutely contradicts the main thesis of the pre-trib fairy tale.   Revelation 14:13: Then I heard a voice from heaven say {During the Great Trib}, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.” Rev 12:11: “They {THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS} overcame him {Satan} by the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.”

I Cor 15:20-24: “But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep…For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the FIRSTFRUITS {On the Day of Firstfruits}; then when He comes, **THOSE WHO BELONG TO HIM**. {*THEN*} the {*END*} will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.” 2 Peter 7,10,13: “The present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of judgement and destruction of ungodly men… But the Day of the Lord {See I Cor 1:7,8} will come like a thief.{To unbelievers-I Thess 5:4,5} The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up… But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH, the Home of righteousness.”

Rev 21 1:1-3: Then I saw a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. {THEN} I saw the NEW JERUSALEM, coming down out of heaven from God…,And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and He will live with them!!” You will note that the New Jerusalem will come only *AFTER the present heaven and earth have passed away on the DAY OF THE LORD! Read Hebrews 11:10, 14-16 & John 14:1-3. The pre-tribbers wrongly believe that THE DAY OF THE LORD is the entire Great Tribulation period. However, Acts 2:20 states “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood {See Matt 24:29} **BEFORE** the coming of the great and glorious DAY OF THE LORD.” {See 2 Peter 3:10 above!!}

Jesus says in Rev 2:17; 3:4, 5, 21: “To him who overcomes…I will give a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it…..He will walk with Me for he is worthy….. I will acknowledge his name before My Father and His angels…. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem…..I will write on him my New Name… and I will give him the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” According to Rev 22:3 these 2 thrones will be the only thrones in the Heavenly New Jerusalem!. Rev 19:7,8,14: We will ride Heavenly White horses in Heaven Dan 12:3: “Those who impart wisdom will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousneess like the stars for ever and ever.”

Unfortunately most of the pre-tribbers actually believe that the tribulation saints will not be saved by the blood of Christ {See Rev 12:11 & Rev 7:14b!!} like the present church saints; and will not be in the LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE.  However, in Revelation 13:8 we read: “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the Beast {666}….*ALL* whose names have not been written in the *LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE*!”

      2 Thess 1:1; 2:1,3,8”  “To the *CHURCH* of the Thessalonians…Concerning the *COMING* of our Lord Jesus Christ and *OUR* being gathered to Him…Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way for *THAT DAY* will not come *UNTIL* the man of lawlessness is revealed!!… Then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord Jesus Christ will destroy with the splendor of His *COMING*!” So anyone who claims that the church saints will be gathered *BEFORE* the coming of the lawless one {666} is absolutely contradicting God’s inspired words!!   This, of course, totally destroys the central pre-trib doctrine of the *IMMINENT* coming of Jesus! {That Jesus could come RIGHT NOW} Since the *COMING of Jesus in 2 Thess 2:8 is POST-TRIB then the *COMING of Jesus when *WE are gathered to Him in 2 Thess 2:3 must also be POST-TRIB since it is in the same context and obviously refers to the same day.

      Mark 13:11: “When you are brought to trial {DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION} do not worry about what to say, for it is not you speaking, but the *HOLY SPIRIT*.” This of course contradicts the ridiculous pre-trib idea that the Holy Spirit will be removed from the saints during the Great Tribulation. Mark 13 is a Tribulation chapter. The only weapon we may use is the sword of the Spirit {Eph 6:17} which is the Word of God.

       Matthew 24:29-31: Jesus says, “Immediately after the distress of those {1260} days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky.” {Luke 21:28 adds “When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”} Then the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud {7TH & LAST} *TRUMPET* CALL and they will gather *His elect* from the 4 winds {Mark 13:27b adds:} “from the ends of the earth {Saints on earth} to  the ends of the Heavens {Saints in Heaven}!!” JESUS WILL COME AGAIN WHEN THE *7TH* ANGEL SOUNDS THE LOUD *7th* AND *LAST* TRUMPET CALL OF GOD.  Rev 11:15a, 18: “The *7TH* angel sounded his trumpet… and the time has come for judging the dead and for rewarding your servants the prophets and saints.” 

Rev 10:7: “But in the days when the *7th* angel is about to sound his trumpet the *MYSTERY* of God will be accomplished!  I Cor 15:51:  “Listen, I tell you a *MYSTERY*!  We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye, at the *LAST* {Or *7TH*} trumpet.”   There are only 7 trumpets in God’s Word during the Great Tribulation and the 7th TRUMP is of course the *LAST TRUMP when the *MYSTERY* of God will be accomplished, and is also the TRUMPET CALL OF GOD in I Thess 4:16.
WILL THE RESURRECTION OF THE CHURCH SAINTS OCCUR ON THE SAME LAST DAY AS THE RESURRECTION OF THE LOST??

John 6:40” Jesus says, “For my Father’s will is that EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the *LAST DAY*!” 

John 6:44: Jesus says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the *LAST DAY!”

Pre-tribbers believe that the *LAST DAY* mentioned 6 times in John 6:39,40,44,54;11:24,12:48 refers to a CONCEALED RESURRECTION 7 years *BEFORE THE LAST DAY*.  However, John 12:48 shows that the lost will also be condemned on that same *LAST DAY*! 

*WHEN WILL THE LOST BE JUDGED AND SENT TO HELL*?

John 12:48: Jesus says, “There is a Judge for the one who rejects Me and does not accept My words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the *LAST DAY*!!” 

2 Thess 1:1,6-10:  ‘To the *CHURCH* of the Thessalonians…God is just; He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.  This will happen *WHEN* the Lord Jesus is *REVEALED* {See I Peter 1:13} from heaven in blazing fire….  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.  They will be punished with everlasting *DESTRUCTION* and shut out from the presence of the Lord *ON THE DAY HE COMES* to be glorified in His holy people!!” {THE LAST DAY-See Rev 20:11-15}

Matt 25:31-34,41:  Jesus says, “*WHEN* the Son of Man comes in His glory,{On the Last Day} and all the angels with Him {See Matt 24:29-31}, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory.  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another……He will put His sheep on His right and the goats on the left. *THEN the King {Jesus} will say to those on His right, “Come you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world… *THEN He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire!”  

John 5:28,29:  Jesus says, “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming {The Last Day} when *ALL* {Both OT & NT Saints} who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” 

Daniel 12:1b,2,7b:  “There will be a time of distress {The Great Tribulation} such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then.  But at that time {The Last Day} your people–*EVERYONE* whose name is found written in the Book {Both OT & NT Saints}—will be delivered.  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt…It will be for a time. times and half a time {1260 days-Rev 12:6,14, or 42  {30-day} months-Rev 13:5-{Not 7 years} *ALL* these things will be *COMPLETED.  

The pre-tribbers wrongly believe that the OT saints will receive their eternal perfect heavenly bodies 7 years AFTER the Church saints. However, in Hebrews 11:39,40 we read “These {OT super saints mentioned in Heb 11:4-38} were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US {NT Saints} would they {OT Saints} be made perfect!”

  By comparing Rev 12:7b and Rev 12:14b we find that 1260 Days and Time {360 Days} Times {720 Days} and ½ a Time {180 Days} are the exact same period of time.  Likewise, when we compare Rev 13:5b with Daniel 7:25b we learn that 42 {30-day Bible} MONTHS and Time {12 Months}, Times {24 Months} and ½ a Time {6 Months} are also the exact same period of time. And therefore 42 {30-Day Bible Months} and Time, Times and ½ a Time are the exact same period of time since 42 X 30 days equal exactly 1260 days.  12 Months = 360 Days = {1 Time}   24 Months = 720 Days = {2 Times}   6 Months = 180 Days = {Half a Time} and 42 Months = 1260 Days = 3 ½ Times. Whereas, 42 times 29 ½ -day Babylonian moon months only adds up to 1239 days!

     NOTE: A BIBLE MONTH IS ALWAYS 30 DAYS!! The only other text where the Bible specifies the number of days in a month besides Rev 13:5b is Genesis 7:11 & Genesis 8:3,4: Where the 17th day of the 2nd Bible Month {Gen 7:11} to the 17th day of the 7th Bible Month {Gen 8:4} is EXACTLY 150 days which would be exactly five 30-day months {Gen 8:3 & Gen 7:34}. All Bible Years are 12 consecutive 30-day months followed by 5 or 6 days.  Pagan Babylonian Moon Months sinfully adopted by Israel during the Babylonian captivity have alternating 29 and 30-day months since there is a New Moon every 29½ days. If God was using Babylonian Moon Months in the above passage he would have said that 5 Bible Months were 147 or 148 days and not EXACTLY 150 days!!

      If you check your concordances you will find that there are 20 OT passages that are wrongly translated NEW MOON that should be translated NEW MONTH. In each case the INSPIRED Hebrew word for MONTH {CHODESH} is used, whereas the Hebrew word for MOON {YARAYACH} is not present. {See I Sam 20:5,18,24; II Kings 4:23; I Chron 23:31; II Chron 2:4; 8:12; 31:3; Ezra 3:5; Neh 10:33; Ps 81:3; Isa 1:13,14; 66:23 Ezek 45:17; 46:1,3,6; Hosea 2:11 & Amos 8:5} In the NT Col 2:16 should be translated NEW MONTH instead of NEW MOON since the INSPIRED Greek word for MONTH {MEN} is used, whereas the Greek word for MOON {SELENE} cannot be found. In Col 2:16 the Greek word used is NEOMENIA which should be translated NEW MONTH: For “NEOS” is the Greek word for NEW and “MEN” is the Greek word for MONTH.

Numbers 28:16: “On the 14th day of the 1st month the Lord’s Passover is to be held.” Exodus 12:6,7,12,13: “Take care of them {The Passover Lambs} until the 14th day of the month when all the people of Israel must slaughter them {See Lev 23:5} at Twilight {Just after sundown to nightfall}. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the doorframes of their houses. On that same night I will strike down the firstborn of the Egyptians… but when I see the blood I will PASS OVER you.” Deut 16:1: “Observe the month of ABIB and celebrate the PASS OVER of the Lord your God, because in the month of ABIB He brought you out of Egypt by night.” Lev 23:6: “On the 15th day of that month the Lord’s 7-day Feast of Unleavened Bread begins.”

Luke 22:7,8: Then came the day on which the Passover Lamb “Had” to be sacrificed. Jesus said, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”  Christ became our Passover Lamb on Passover Day! 1 Cor 5:7: “For Christ our PASSOVER LAMB has been sacrificed.” Whereas the Jews {who were following the evil Babylonian moon calendar} held their Passover on the 15th of Nisan {Which always occurs on the night of a full moon} and observed the Passover on the WRONG DAY as per John 18:28: “Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman Governor {Pilate}. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; for they wanted to be able to eat the PASSOVER!!”  Which would have been the day “AFTER” Jesus correctly held the Passover on the 14th of ABIB which God had commanded. 

So we can assume that the month of ABIB is different from the Babylonian moon month of Nisan and therefore has nothing to do with the moon. When does the first month of the Bible Year called ABIB begin?? Many Bible scholars believe that it may begin of the first day of SPRING or sundown March 20th to sundown March 21st. ABIB is the Hebrew word for SPRING. And so the 14th Day of ABIB can also be translated the 14th day of SPRING!!
 
In May of AD 325 the Council of Nicea decided that starting in April, AD 326 the Resurrection Day of Jesus should be determined by the Babylonian Moon Calendar instead of April 5th, or the 16th day of first Bible month of Abib {See Ex 23:15 & Deut 16:1} The 1st Day of the 1st Bible month of Abib is always sundown Mar 20 to sundown Mar 21. The Nicean Council decided that our Lord’s Resurrection Day should be called EASTER beginning in April, AD 326. DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF EASTER: Easter from the old English Eastre, the name of Babylonian Mother Nature goddess: ISHTAR!! The Phoenician name for ISHTAR or EASTER is Ashtoreth or Asherah who was worshipped as a goddess and the female counterpart of the sun god Baal. She was regarded both as the goddess of war and destruction as well as the deity of love and fertility. Her licentious worship was condemned by God {See Deut 7:5;16:21,22; Judges 2:12,13} The KJV uses the word EASTER instead of Passover in Acts 12:4?

WHAT ARE THE 3 PASSAGES IN GOD’S WORD WHICH SHOW THAT THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND THE REIGN OF 666 WILL LAST EXACTLY 1260 DAYS OR 42 {30-DAY} MONTHS??

**{#1}** Daniel 12:1b,2,7b:  “There will be a time of distress {The Great Tribulation} such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then.  But at that time {The Last Day} your people–*EVERYONE* whose name is found written in the book {Both OT & NT Saints}—will be delivered.  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt…It will be for a time. times and half a time {Which is also 1260 days as per Rev 12:6,14, or 42  {30-day} months as per Rev 13:5} *ALL* these things will be *COMPLETED.  

**{#2}** Rev 13:5,7: The beast will be given a mouth to utter blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 {30-day} months {Not 7 years}…He will be given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. COMPARE WITH

**{#3}**Dan 7:25: “He will speak against the Most High and oppress His saints.  The saints will be handed over to him for time {12 months}, times {24 months} and 1/2 a time {6 months}. {Not 7 years}

Events in Revelation that will occur during the 1260-day Tribulation are discussed in Rev 6:1 to 18:24, Events that will occur on the Last Day are recorded in Rev 6:12-17; Rev 11:15-19; Rev 14:14-20; Rev 16:17-21; Rev 19:1-21 & Rev 20:9b-15. The Olivet discourse by Jesus about the End-Times are recorded in Matt 24 & 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21.  Events that will occur during the 1260-day Tribulation are recorded in Matt 24:9-28; Mark 13:5-23 and Luke 21:8-24. Events which will occur on the Last Day of the Tribulation including the 2nd Coming of Jesus are recorded in Matt 24:29-31; Matt 25:31-46; Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. The glorious appearing of Jesus and the resurrection of His saints on the Last day of the Tribulation are mentioned in God’s Word about 50 other times such as Titus 2:13: “WE wait for the blessed hope—the glorious APPEARING of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,”

For example: If the coming of 666 and the 1260-day Great Tribulation starts on April 5th, 2011 then the 2nd coming of Jesus would occur exactly 1260 days later on September 16th, 2014. When the 1260-day Great Tribulation begins God’s saints will then know the exact day of the 2nd coming on the Last Day as per: Rev 3:3: Jesus says, “But {*IF*} you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” I Thess 5:4: Paul said “But YOU BROTHERS {*CHURCH SAINTS*}, are not in darkness so that {*THIS DAY*} should surprise you like a thief.”

     Now there are some who suggest that the Anti-Christ will exercise his authority for 7 years {Not 42 Months} and that the Great Tribulation will last 7 years {Not 1260 Days or 3 ½ Times}.  They have only **ONE** Bible verse {Daniel 9:27—which they grossly misinterpret} to support this idea which absolutely contradicts God’s Divine Time Periods as found in Rev 13:5b, Dan 7:25b & Dan 12:7b.

      Before quoting Daniel 9:24-27 several things should be noted:
NOTE: About 280 years before the Dan 9:24-27 Prophecy God made this amazing prophecy in Isaiah 44:28: The Lord… says of *CYRUS*, “He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of JERUSALEM LET IT BE REBUILT!” This verse absolutely contradicts the Artaxerxes theory! 

  NOTE: According to Leviticus 25:8 a Sabbath ‘week’ or 7 is *7 YEARS and 7 times 7 YEARS or ‘weeks’ is a Jubilee or 49 years.Hebrews 9:15,26b-28:

NOTE: Hebrews 9:15,26b-28: Christ is the mediator of a NEW COVENANT so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant…But now He has APPEARED once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the SACRIFICE of Himself… so Christ was SACRIFICED ONCE to take away the sins of many people, and He will *APPEAR* a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him when Jesus will bring in Everlasting Righteousness on the Last Day of the Last 7.

Dan 9:24-27: “70 7’s {490 years} are decreed for your people to Anoint the Most Holy, TO ATONE FOR WICKEDNESS and to bring in everlasting righteousness… “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree {By Cyrus-Isa 44:28 above} to rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One comes {Oct 23, AD 29?} there will be 7 plus 62 7’s {Which is 69 7’s or 483 years}. “After the 7 plus 62 7’s {actually 1260 days after on April 3-5 AD 33} the Anointed One will be cut off but not for Himself….. He {The Anointed One} will confirm a COVENANT with many for one ’seven’.  In the middle of the ’seven’ {After 1260 days} He {The Anointed One; not 666} will put an END to SACRIFICES{For sin}{And then after a long pause} the abomination of Desolation {666} will come {for the 1260 day Great Tribulation} until the decreed end is poured out on him.” on the Last day of the last 7 {See Rev 19:20} And so the first half of the last 7 was already completed when Jesus put and END to all sacrifices for sin 1260 days after His Anointing which occurred after 69 7’s.

When the Anointed One came 69 7’s or 483 years were 100% completed [See Dan 9:25 above} leaving just one 7 in the future; which will be totally used by those who wrongly believe in a future 7-year Tribulation; which means that the Atonement for sin by Jesus about 3 ½ years after His Anointing can not be included in the 70 7’s Prophecy. However, God’s Word clearly states that 70 7’s are decreed …TO ATONE FOR WICKEDNESS which occurred about 3 ½ years after the end of the 69 7’s and therefore the first half of the last 7 has already been completed since there are only 3 ½ times left in the 70 7’s. And so the Great Tribulation and the rule of 666 will last exactly 1260 days or 42 months or 3 ½ times which agrees which God’s Divine time periods found in Dan 12:1,2,7b; Dan 7:25 & Rev 13:5.

Now many saints believe the reign of 666 and the Great Tribulation are extremely close. I Peter 1:13: “Therefore, prepare your minds for ACTION, and set your hope *FULLY* on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED*!” 

Mark 13:20: Jesus says, “If the Lord had not cut short those {Tribulation} days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has shortened them.”The first 69 7’s were 365-day years {7 years = 2557 days} but the Last 7 has been shortened to 360-day years and two 1260-day periods or 2520 days. And so God has shortened the last 7 of the 70 7’s from 2557 days to two 1260-day periods or 2520 days. And God has shortened the Great Tribulation from 3 ½ years or 1278 days to 3 ½ times or 1260 days.

     NOTE: The prophecies and time periods found in Daniel 8:1-27 {1150 days or 2300 morning and evening sacrifices} and Daniel 10:11 to 11:45 and Daniel 12:11,12 {1290 & 1335 Days} were all completely fulfilled during the evil reign of Antiochus Epiphanes IV from 172 BC to 164 BC {See Macabees 1:10,44-64; 4:52,53} and have absolutely nothing to do with the time periods and prophecies of the 1260-Day Great Tribulation or reign of 666; and are not mentioned or even implied in Revelation or anywhere in the New Testament. Daniel 12:1-10 was an End-Time Prophecy parenthesis { } which did not include Daniel 11:45 nor Daniel 12:11,12. Almost all of the prophecies in the OT are a parenthesis { } in a text which had nothing to do with the prophecy. The only End-Time verses in Daniel are Daniel 2:31-45; Daniel 7:7-28; Daniel 9:27b and Daniel 12:1-10.

 IS THE 1,000 YEAR FIRST RESURRECTION IN REVELATION 20:4-6 FOR THE 24 ELDERS ON THRONES AND MARTYRS ONLY??
Jesus promised to 12 Apostles who followed Him {Including Paul?} that they would be given 12 THRONES and the authority to JUDGE in Matthew 19:28 & Luke 22:30. In Revelation 4:4 Before the beginning of the Great Tribulation John saw exactly 24 thrones surrounding God’s Throne in Heaven. The other 12 thrones were most likely given to 12 prominent OT Elders such as Abraham, Joseph and Isaiah. One of these 24 Elders speaks in Rev 7:13-17 and after the 7TH angel sounds the 7TH and Last Trumpet in Rev 11:15 ONLY the 24 Elders state in Rev 11:16-18: “The time has come for JUDGING the dead and for rewarding your saints.”

  It is completely obvious that the 1,000 year reign mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 is for 24 ELDERS on Thrones and MARTYRS ONLY according to God’s Word in Revelation 20:4,5b,6a: “I saw Thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to JUDGE and I saw the SOULS of those who had been beheaded {Or martyred} because of their testimony for Jesus {NT Martyrs} and because of the Word of God {OT Martyrs}. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands {Tribulation Martyrs}. THEY {THE 24 ELDERS & MARTYRS} came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years… This is the FIRST RESURRECTION… Blessed and holy are those who have part in the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Rev 20:5a: “The rest of the dead {Those saints who are not martyrs or the 24 Elders on Thrones} did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ENDED.” Which, of course, would be the SECOND RESURRECTION at the 2nd Coming of Jesus. There are only TWO RESURRECTIONS for all saints mentioned in Rev 20:4-6: The FIRST RESURRECTION is for Martyrs and the 24 Elders only and INCLUDES the Tribulation Martyrs. And therefore the SECOND RESURRECTION must come on the Last Day of the Great Tribulation and must include all saints {Both OT & NT} who are not martyrs or the 24 Elders on thrones.

The Heavenly rewards for the faithful and courageous *MARTYRS* is one of the most important central themes in the book of Revelation. For they will reign with Jesus in Heaven during the 1,000 years before His 2nd Coming; and according to Revelation 7:14-17: They are before the Throne of God and God will spread His tent over them. They will receive White Robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. Never again will they hunger or thirst and God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. Jesus will be their Shepherd and will lead them to springs of Living Water.

FOR EXAMPLE: Let us suppose that the SECOND RESURRECTION takes place on September 16th, 2014; then the continuous 1,000 year FIRST RESURRECTION for MARTYRS AND 24 ELDERS ONLY would take place from September 16th, AD 1014 to September 16th, 2014. The 24 Elders and all of the OT & NT saints martyred before September 16th, 1014 were awakened to reign with Jesus in Heaven and every Martyr martyred after September 16th, 1014 were and will be immediately awakened to reign with Jesus in the continuous 1,000 year FIRST RESURRECTION to be completed on September 16th, 2014 at the SECOND RESURRECTION when “The rest of the dead come to life when the thousand years are ENDED.” {Rev 20:5a} Rev 20:4b “I saw the *SOULS of those who had been martyred because of their testimony for Jesus… they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years. The Martyrs SOULS will only get their New Heavenly bodies when the 1,000 years are ENDED at the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

This seems to contradict John 6:40: Jesus says, “EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.” However, the LAST DAY RESURRECTION could last 1,000 years for in 2 Pet 3:8 we read: “With the Lord a DAY is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years are like a DAY!!

WHEN WAS SATAN STOPPED FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS SO THAT THE GOSPEL COULD BE PREACHED TO EVERY NATION IN THE WORLD AS PER MATTHEW 24:14 AND REVELATION..7:9?? 

       Let us assume that the Great Tribulation will last 1260 days from April 5th, 2011 to Sept 16th, 2014.  As you know Satan was successful in stopping the Gospel from spreading past 5% of the earth; or southern Europe and Northern Africa for almost 1000 years. Suddenly the Gospel was being preached throughout the pagan kingdoms of Russia, Finland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden around AD 1011.  And in the past 1000 years the Gospel has spread to all of Africa and Asia, North and South America, and all the remote islands of the earth.  As you know the gospel must be preached to every nation of the earth before the end can come as per Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 7:9. 

And so about 95% of the world’s nations have heard the gospel for the first time during the past 1,000 years.        Rev 20:2,3: “He {The angel} seized the dragon, who is the devil or Satan and bound him for 1,000 years {FOR EXAMPLE: April 5th, AD 1011 to April 5th, 2011}.  He threw him into the Abyss to keep him from deceiving the nations until the 1,000 years were ended {April 5th, 2011}.  After that he must be set free for a short time.” Or 1260 days from April 5th, 2011 to Sept 16th, 2014 during the Great Tribulation when Satan will again deceive ALL the nations until the Last Day. 

   Rev 3:1,3: Jesus says, “To the angel of the {*CHURCH*} in Sardis write…But *IF you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.”  1 Thess 1:1, 5:4: “To the {*CHURCH*} of the Thessalonians…But you brothers {*CHURCH SAINTS*}, are not in darkness so that *THIS DAY*{Just Mentioned In I Thess 4:16,17} should surprise you like a thief.  You are all sons of the light and sons of the DAY.”  And so once the 1260-day Tribulation begins all of God’s {*CHURCH*} saints will know the exact day that the Tribulation will end at the Second Coming of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the *LAST DAY*.  And so the resurrection day of I Thess 4:16 to I Thess 5:4 will not be a surprise to the saints resurrected in I Thess 4:16,17 just as the resurrection day at the end of the 1260-day Great Tribulation will not be a surprise to *ALL* of God’s saints which proves that the resurrection day mentioned in I Thess 4:16,17 will also come  on the LAST DAY of the Great Tribulation!!!

      Also in the context of I Thess 4:16 to I Thess 5:4 is this interesting statement in I Thess 5:2,3:  “You know very well that the day of the Lord {Just mentioned in I Thess 4:16} will come like a thief in the night. {to unbelievers}  While people are saying ‘peace and safety,’ DESTRUCTION WILL COME ON THEM SUDDENLY… AND THEY WILL NOT ESCAPE!!” {See 2 Thess 1:6-10 and Matthew 25 :31-33,41-46}  After 6 of the last 7 bowl plagues of the Great Tribulation Jesus will make this statement in Rev 16:15: “Behold, I come like a thief!”{See 2 Pet 3:7,10 & Rev 3:3!!} Christ Himself says that He is coming like a thief at the end of the tribulation just before the battle of Armageddon!! This destruction of the lost in hell will occur on the LAST DAY of the Great Tribulation as shown above in Matt 25:31-33:41-46: John 5:28,29; 12:48; Daniel 12:1,2,7b & 2 Thess 1:6-10, which firmly places the resurrection mentioned in I Thess 4:16 to I Thess 5:4 on the Last day of the Great Tribulation and not a *CONCEALED* pre-trib rapture 1260 days or 7 years BEFORE the LAST DAY of the Great Tribulation!!  

WHO WILL BE GOD’S TWO WITNESSES {REV 11:3} OR MEN {REV 11:6} OR PROPHETS {REV 11:10}??

Zechariah 4:11,14: “Then I asked the angel, ‘What are these *TWO* OLIVE TREES {See Rev 11:4 below} on the right and left of the lamp stand?’… the angel said, ‘These are the TWO who are anointed to serve the Lord of the earth!’”  Rev 11:3-6: {God said to John} “I will give power to My *TWO* witnesses and they will prophesy for 1260 days clothed in sackcloth! These are the *TWO OLIVE TREES {See Zech 4:11,14 above} and the 2 lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire will come from their mouths to destroy their enemies. This is how anyone who tries to harm them must die {See 2 Kings 1:9-12; Num 16:31-35}. These *MEN* will have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying {See 1 Kings 17:1; Luke 4:25; James 5:17}; and they will have power to turn the waters into blood {See Exodus 7:15-23} and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish.”  

Moses and Elijah witnessed to 3 Apostles on the mount of Transfiguration when Moses & Elijah spoke to Jesus about his departure or Ascension, which Jesus was to bring to fulfillment in Jerusalem 40 days after His resurrection. Luke 9:30,31: “TWO MEN Moses and Elijah, appeared in GLORIOUS SPLENDOR talking with Jesus.  They spoke about His Departure {Or Ascension} which He was about to bring to fulfillment in Jerusalem.” Moses and Elijah were most assuredly the *TWO MEN* dressed in white who witnessed at the Departure or Ascension of Jesus in Acts 1:10,11: “They looked up into the sky as He {Jesus} was going when suddenly *TWO MEN* dressed in WHITE stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into Heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into Heaven!”  

     And then in Luke 24:2b-6b we read: They did not find the body of Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly *TWO MEN*… stood beside them… And the *MEN* said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? HE IS NOT HERE; HE HAS RISEN!!”    Jesus says in John 8:17b: “The testimony of *TWO MEN IS VALID* and of course the testimony of Moses and Elijah is just about as valid as you can get.        And so the coming of God’s *TWO MEN* or witnesses to prophesy for 1260 days {See Rev 11:3-7} will be their FOURTH appearance as God’s 2 witnesses or MEN. And the reason that their names are not mentioned in Luke 24:3 and Acts 1:10 and Rev 11:3-12 is that the Father, Moses and Elijah want us to glorify *NO ONE ELSE BUT JESUS*!!

    Moses and Elijah will most likely witness miraculously to people in the uttermost parts of the earth in all 6,000 languages. Presently the Bible has been translated into about 2,000 languages from the inspired Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and faith comes from hearing or reading the sword of the spirit which is the Word of God. The Bible still has not been translated into about 4,000 languages and Rev 5:9b and Rev 7:9,13,14 must be completely fulfilled.  Surely the courageous tribulation saints will help Moses and Elijah spread God’s Word. They will do a fantastic job since according to Rev 7:9,14 there will be a great multitude from EVERY TRIBE AND LANGUAGE who will be “washed in the Blood of the Lamb”.

Moses & Elijah will be dressed in SACKCLOTH which is appropriate since the Tribulation saints will be very poor, for they will not be able to buy or sell anything as per Rev 13:17. Moses and Elijah will certainly speak the Word of God with great power and love. They will not add or take words away from the Prophetic Words of God {See Rev 22:18,19}; and they will encourage God’s courageous saints to adhere to *ALL* of the NT commandments {See Rev 12:13b; 14:12b; Matt 28:20a; John 14:15,21,23; I John 2:2-5} with love {See Matt 5:39-48 & Rom 12:17-21} in the face of severe and hostile persecution.

Moses and Elijah will begin their 1260-day testimony {Rev 11:3} 3 ½ days before the coming of 666 & the 1260-day Great Tribulation and 1263 ½ days before the Last Day. {*THE FIRST END-TIME EVENT*} Moses and Elijah will warn us of the coming of 666 & his False Prophet.     It seems very appropriate that God will send His TWO PROPHETS {See Rev 11:10b} to warn and prepare His saints for the coming of Satan, 666 and the Great Tribulation for in Amos 3:7 we read: “Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the PROPHETS!”  GOD’S PROPHETS are mentioned 8 times in Revelation: Revelation 10:7; 11:10; 11:18; 16:6; 18:20,24; 22:6 & 22:9. Whereas; preachers, pastors and evangelists are not even mentioned once in Revelation! God will allow 666 to martyr Moses and Elijah {See Rev 11:7,8} right where their Lord was crucified. {At the new *HOLY PLACE* where Jesus shed his blood for our sins} 3 ½ days later Moses and Elijah will rise to heaven just hours before the 7th angel sounds the 7th Trump at the 2nd coming of Jesus.{See Rev 11:11-18}

Mark 13:14: Jesus says, “When you see 666 standing where he does not belong {At the New Holy Place}….then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” {See Rev 11:7,8 & Rev 16:15} John 2:19: Jesus said, “Destroy this TEMPLE and I will raise it again in 3 days.” This HOLY PLACE is where Jesus became the chief cornerstone {Eph 2:20,21} and we are living stones {I Pet 2:5 & 2 Cor 6:16} in the LAST TEMPLE made without hands! {Acts 17:24}     Certainly, the old Jerusalem and the old Temple site are NO LONGER HOLY PLACES.   Hebrews 13:12-14: “Jesus suffered outside the city gate to make the people HOLY THROUGH HIS BLOOD. Let us, then, go to Him outside the city, bearing the disgrace He bore. For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the CITY {THE NEW JERUSALEM} that is to come.” {See Heb 11:10,13-16; Heb 12:22; Rev 3:12b; 21:2,10-27; 22:1-5; 2 Pet 3:13} Gal 4:25,26: “Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem {Called Sodom in Rev 11:8} because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is ABOVE is free, and she is our mother.” {The New Jerusalem}

DOES A JEWISH TEMPLE WITH BIBLICAL SPECIFICATIONS HAVE TO BE REBUILT??

        Some End-Time Groups who wrongly interpret Daniel 9:27a, and who believe in a 7-year Tribulation, {Starting with a New Jewish Temple} are now spreading false rumors that religious Jews are now building a Temple or are planning to tear down the Muslim Dome of the Rock in order to rebuild a Jewish Temple to Biblical specifications and will then REINSTITUTE animal sacrifices??? However there are several big problems with this scenario: All 21 Arab Muslim nations including Pakistan which has many nuclear bombs would then immediately declare an all-out Holy War on Israel, and the Israeli government fully understands this. I know this for I was a missionary in Israel.  A Jewish Temple built to Biblical specifications would then take at least 7 years to build during this continuous war with the 21 Muslim nations. Most of these same End-Time Groups also teach that a pre-trib rapture could occur TODAY {Not at least 7 years from today} which of course makes the ridiculous *IMMINENT* pre-trib belief {That Jesus could come TODAY} a big joke.

Now all those who believe in a 7-year Tribulation only because of the wrong interpretation of Daniel 9:27a also believe that immediately following a CONCEALED pre-trib rapture of the Church saints that the Anti-Christ will make a Covenant with Israel; allowing the Jews to make animal sacrifices in a Jewish Temple built to Biblical specifications. They believe that at the end of 3 1/2 years in the middle of the 7 years the antichrist will put an end to all animal sacrifices in this Jewish Temple. However, for over 1,000 years religious Jews have believed that when their Messiah comes He will bring with him the New Jewish Temple and the required Ark of the Covenant. And then the Messiah will re-establish the Levitical priesthood; who will then offer animal sacrifices according to OT Law.

For according to OT Law {See Numbers 3:5-10} all Jewish Priests must prove that they are direct descendants of Levi and these Levitical genealogies were completely destroyed when the last Jewish Temple was destroyed in AD 70. Therefore, no Scriptural OT animal sacrifices could possibly occur before then; since no Jew can now prove that he is a Levite!! And so if you are waiting for this Jewish Temple to be built to Biblical specifications by Jews who will then offer animal sacrifices; you are going to have to wait until this bogus Jewish messiah comes.  Please do not hold your breath until this time!

       Did Herod the Great completely destroy the 2nd Temple including its foundations around 17 BC?? The following is a quote from “Antiquities of the Jews” by Josephus, Page 334, Para 1 & 3:  “And now Herod, in the 18th year of his reign undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God and make it LARGER in compass, and to raise it to a most significant altitude, as esteeming it to be the most glorious of all his actions and this would be sufficient for an everlasting memorial to him….so Herod TOOK AWAY THE OLD FOUNDATIONS AND LAID OTHERS, and erected the temple upon them. Herod’s 3rd Temple was 100 cubits {150 feet} long.” {The first two Jewish temples were both 60 cubits {90 feet} long as per 2 Chronicles 3:3 & Ezra 6:3.}  So then Herod’s Temple was the 3RD TEMPLE which according to John 2:20 took “46 years to build”. 

There are some who believe that a {4th} Jewish Temple built to Biblical specifications will appear during the End-Times and is suggested in Revelation 11:1.  The TEMPLE IN HEAVEN is mentioned 12 times in Revelation where worshipers are present: Rev 3:12;7:15;11:19(2X);14:15,17;15:5,6,8(2x); & Rev 16:1,17. The only other time that a temple is mentioned is in Rev 11:1; where worshipers are present; so this could also be a reference to the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN. Let us compare Rev 11:1 with Rev 7:15 and Rev 8:3-5:  Revelation 11:1: I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the TEMPLE OF GOD and the ALTAR, and count the worshipers there.” Rev 7:15:”They {martyrs as per Rev 7:9-14} are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in HIS TEMPLE.” Rev 8:3-5: Another angel, who had a golden censor, came and stood at the ALTAR. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden ALTAR before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 

Ephesians 2:19b-22:  “You are members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ Himself as the chief cornerstone {Of the 4th and LAST TEMPLE}.  In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord.  And in Him you too are being built {Living Stones-1 Pet 2:5} together to become a dwelling in which God lives by His Spirit.  2 Cor 6:16 “For *WE are the TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD!”{See Revelation 11:1 above!!} Acts 17:24: The God who made the world and everything in it …does not live in temples built by hands. The “outer court” of the TEMPLE OF GOD in Rev 11:2 would be the saints on earth who are also the TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD.

      Revelation 1:7:  “Look, He is coming with the *CLOUDS*, and *EVERY EYE* will see Him, even those who pierced Him!” This 2nd Coming of Jesus with the *CLOUDS* is also mentioned in Matt 24:30 and I Thess 4:17 and in Matthew 26:64: Jesus replied, “But I say to all of you:  In the future you {Unsaved Jews at His trial} will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty one and coming on the *CLOUDS* of heaven!” 
  
There will be 2 Comings of Jesus on the same Last Day.  The First Coming will be *FOR* His saints and His second Coming will be *WITH* His saints on Heavenly White Horses right after they celebrate the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. {Read Rev 19:7-9 & Rev 17:11,14} They will conqer 666 and his 10 armies {See Rev 17:19-21}. This then explains the resurrection of God’s saints in Luke 17:30,35: Jesus says, “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is *REVEALED….two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” All of the lost who are left behind when Jesus is *REVEALED; will later be judged and then sent to hell on that same Last Day. {See 2 Thess 6-10; John 5:28,29; 12:48; Daniel 12:1,2,7b & Matt 25:31-33;41-46} Pre-tribbers wrongly teach that Luke 17:30,35 above and Matt 24:40-41 prove a pre-trib rapture.

       Jesus {See Rev 1:10,18} said to John in Rev 1:19: “Write what you have seen, what is now {Rev chapters 2 & 3} and *WHAT WILL TAKE PLACE LATER*.” {Rev chapters 6-22}  Events that will occur on the Last Day are recorded in Rev 6:12-17; Rev 11:15-19; Rev 14:14-20; Rev 16:17-21; Rev 19:1-21 & Rev 20:9b-15.  Question: How many words in Revelation, chapters 6-22 are devoted to a rapture before the beginning of the Great Tribulation??  Answer: *ZERO*!! In Rev 4:1 Jesus invited John to come up to Heaven in AD 96 so that he could write what he saw.  Rev 4:1b: Jesus said to John in AD 96, “Come up here, and I will show you *WHAT MUST TAKE PLACE.”  Unfortunately, there are some pre-tribbers who teach that Rev 4:1 actually proves a *CONCEALED* rapture of the church saints before the beginning of the Great Tribulation; which shows a *NEW LOW in honest Bible exegesis. How many words in the Olivet discourse are devoted to a rapture before the Great Tribulation?  Answer: *ZERO*!!The Olivet discourse by Jesus about the End-Times are recorded in Matt 24 & 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21.  Events which will occur on the Last Day of the Tribulation including the 2nd Coming are recorded in Matt 24:29-31; Matt 25:31-46; Mark 13:24-27 & Luke 21:25-28. 

Rev 22:16,18,19: Jesus says, “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give *YOU* {The Greek for YOU is plural} this testimony {ALL OF REVELATION} *FOR* the CHURCHES.” This contradicts the ridiculous pre-trib idea that Revelation, chapters 4-19, was not written *FOR* the CHURCHES! The word “CHURCH”is also not mentioned in 9 books of the NT: John, Mark, Luke, 2 Tim, 1 John, 2 John, 1 Peter, 2 Peter and Jude; and is not mentioned in the first 15 chapters of Romans and yet every word in all these NT books are “FOR THE CHURCHES”….. “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book.  If anyone *ADDS anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.  And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are described in this book.”

We see Church saints during the Great Tribulation in Revelation 7:9,14; Rev 12:11,17; Rev 13:8-11; Rev 17:6 and in many other places we read of God’s faithful and courageous Tribulation saints.

Rev 7:9,14: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count , from **EVERY** nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb…..The Elder said, “These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation {martyrs}; they have washed their robes in the BLOOD OF THE LAMB!!”

Just before the coming of 666 and the 1260-day Great Tribulation in Revelation 13:1 we read in Rev 12:17 Then the dragon {Satan} was enraged at the woman {Sarah} and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–THOSE WHO OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENTS AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS!!”

Rev 12:11: “They overcame him {Satan} by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. “Revelation 13:8,10b: The inhabitants of the earth will worship the Beast {666}–all whose names have not written in the BOOK OF LIFE BELONGING TO THE LAMB… This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
Rev 17:6: “I saw that the woman {Rome} was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.”
During the Great Tribulation with 666 in control of every nation tribe and language it will no longer be safe for the saints to worship in churches.
It is time for all pre-trib *ADDERS* to repent; and all CLOSET Post-Tribbers to come out of their closets and teach ALL of God’s Word as per 2 Tim 4:1-8 since the End-Times are very near. Paul was inspired to write in 2 Timothy 4:8: “There is in store for me the Crown of Righteousness which the Lord will award to me on *THAT DAY*—and not only to me, but to *ALL who have longed for *HIS APPEARING*.” THE ETERNAL RENDEZVOUS WITH JESUS!

 WHAT ARE THE 7 BIBLE CLUES WHICH REVEAL THE IDENTITY OF 666???

     Rev

By RICHARD SCHURZ (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/12/2011 21:21 pm

Hope commentator speak in English…if you are the only one who understands your language…what profit would it do to us who speak in English…your a clanging cymbal to us…

By TIUCHE (wrote 2759 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/23/2011 12:44 pm

Commentary deleted

Please use only the English language while posting your commentaries on VBVBC.org. Other commentators must be able to understand your commentaries and the moderators must be able to moderate without using Google translate.

By novo Liner (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/23/2011 03:57 am

Hammer! Diese Story hätte ich garnicht für möglich gehalten

By Spiele (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/31/2011 16:52 pm

Hi Scott,
As I have come to understand the last week of Daniel, it applies to Jesus’ mission on earth. A seven year plan. He was anointed (baptized) on His 30th birthday as is usual for Jewish rabbis at the end of the 69th “week” and was to teach for the next 7 years. But in the middle of it (after 3-1/2 years) he was “cut off” (killed). His death as the lamb of God ended the sacrifices and left the holy of holies (where the sacrifices were performed) desolate and unnecessary. Remember the veil covering the sacrificial table was torn apart when Jesus died. But He did not die for Himself - He died for mankind.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now, the part about the prince destroying the city refers to the Roman army that would eventually destroy Jerusalem and the temple, justas Jesus predicted in the Olivet prophecy.

Interestingly, if you go forward 3-1/2 years from the crucifixion you get to the stoning of Steven. Before that event, the apostles only preached to the Jews, but after that it was preached to the gentiles primarily. This is the point where the true church switched from the Jews to the Christians. This was the end of the 70 weeks.
It’s as simple as that. No 2000-year jump in time. No antichrist, etc. All that comes later in the book. The 70 weeks are all about the messiah.
Daniel’s longest prophecy ended in 1844 when “The sanctuary was cleansed.” It too, was continuous. 1844 marked the beginning of the 7th day Adventist movement. Before that all modern churches were polluting the sanctuary (God’s church) with pagan Sunday worship. The 7th day movement restored the true sabbath, thus cleansing the church from the last major pagan practice.

Hope this gives you something to think about. When I came to understand it changed my whole perception about the tribulation - how it will begin and how long it will last.

But that’s another blog topic…

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/30/2011 19:58 pm

Actually Jim,Scott,Jayant and everyone else, Herr Line says: “Thanks to you, I finally grasped that”

By Roland G (wrote 1416 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/29/2011 22:21 pm

Jim, Herr Line says: “Thanks to you, I finally grasped that”

By Roland G (wrote 1416 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/29/2011 22:19 pm

I believe that was a “Thank you” from Herr Line

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/28/2011 16:33 pm

Dank dir, endlich habe ich das begriffen

By Line (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/28/2011 13:01 pm

Jim,

Sorry about the misunderstanding but I think you’ll have to try and explain it again (if you’re up for it). Everytime I try to figure out what you’re getting at.., I can’t.

What I THINK you’re saying is this:

-Daniel’s prophecy is 70 weeks of Years (or 490 years). With this I fully agree.

-The first 69 weeks culminate in the anointing of Jesus. (I tend to think it culminates in the crucifixion; the “cutting off”. But the overall timing is essentially the same).

-That leaves one more week in the prophecy; the 70th week (or 7 years). At this point it seems to me that you are saying that the 70th week began right after the 69th week or sometime not much later (at the collapse of the Roman empire?).

-The 1260 days of Revelation refers to this same 70th Week period (or half of it. Time, times and the dividing of time).

If this is what you are saying, then you must also be saying that the 70th week is half over and that the tribulation has begun (if you’re not, please correct me). It’s at this point that it seems you have morphed Daniel’s 7 years into 2400 years (not 70 like I said previously). If this is so, It must rely on the interpretation of Revelation to mean the duration of the period of the Catholic church (specifically, which scriptures lead you to this conclusion?).

If you’re not saying these things, perhaps we should just end the discussion because I’m just not getting it.

Lastly, the reference to the “one hour” of power that the kings receive with the beast- I have no reason not to believe that it literally means “one hour”. Why shouldn’t we believe it? “Can a nation be born in a day?”. Can a virgin deliver a child?

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/30/2010 04:24 am

Scott,
I didn’t say the 70th week of Daniel will be 70 years long. A year for a day makes it 7 years instead of 7 days. Everyone agree with that. The first 69 weeks are also 69 weeks of years or 483 actual years. The question here is when to use it and when not to. The bible states the formula but does not say when it should be ignored. I find that most people ignore it when it doesn’t fit their interpretation.
For example, Jayant says we can toss it out in any prophecies that weren’t “sealed.” That’s just a lame excuse to make it seem to work in his interpretation. If you find a bible verse that confirms this I will gladly stand corrected.
I’m afraid that if you don’t understand that the catholic church (and the Vatican, which actually a political empire based on a religion - it is a member of the U.N.) is part of the Book of Revelation, then you are missing the main message of the book. Unfortunately, this will be true for more than 90% of Christians and nothing I can say will change that. (But I’m trying).
May God bless all of us…

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 08:14 am

Jim,

Thanks for the explanation in #199. Our differing perspectives really are mutually exclusive. I can’t agree with the 1260 YEAR interpretation on a number of levels:

1. I can’t agree with your deductive analysis of Daniel’s 70th week morphing in 70 years instead of 7.

2. I see the 3.5 year period as still future (whether ‘prophetic’ years or literal years).

3. IMO, the Holy Roman Empire (Catholic Church) is not even part of the prophecy in Revelation. The empire spoken of is firstly a political and commercial empire. It is also a religious empire but it is born of a religion that far pre-dates catholicism.

Earlier, I think you were right when you said that we should probably agree to disagree. It appears that we’re on two completely different playing fields.

Shalom

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/28/2010 02:17 am

For Daniel, the prophecies were to be sealed up, so we may see there the year/day formula, but not necessarily in Revlation where the commandment is not to seal the prophecies.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/27/2010 21:41 pm

The Year-day formula can be applicable when the context made it clear. In the book of Revelation, we have the two periods of 3 years and a half each, making it seven years. These two periods are mntioned as , ‘forty two months’, ‘1260 days’ or ‘time, times and a half time’.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/27/2010 21:33 pm

Scott,
The year-for-a day formula is to be used in all matters of prophecy, not throughout all prophetic books. In the case of Daniel, there are stories such as the lion’s den and the furnace that do not describe prophetic events, therefore the rule does not apply. So when Daniel says he prayed for 21 days, we can take that literally.
As for seventy sevens, the sevens refers to seven days or a week (before the formula). So it really means 70 weeks or actually seventy weeks of years. There can be no doubt about this as the first 69 “weeks” pinpointed the date in 27AD when Jesus was baptized or “anointed” to begin his ministry. If the last week refers to the tribulation, then we must assume that it also is not a literal week either.
So in Daniel 7:25 where he speaks about the end of the Roman empire where the iron of the statue turns to iron mixed with clay, he is talking about the Holy Roman Empire which Rome became after it collapsed into ten kingdoms. In Dan 7:25…

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

He is referring to the 2nd beast of Revelation here and he says it will last 3-1/2 prophetic years or 1260 literal years - exactly the duration of the Holy Roman Empire. This 1260 year period is mentioned 3 times in Revelation and every time it refers to the Holy Roman Empire. Revelation is a continuation of Daniel. The beast with ten horns and 7 crowns is the same, although many try to say that it becomes something completely different in Revelation. But God is not trying to throw us a curve here, we are supposed to recognize this fact when we read Revelation, but only if we already understand Daniel. It was written this way to throw off the Roman authorities who no doubt were reading his papers to see if he was writing anything derogatory about the empire. In fooling them he unfortunately fooled many people today as well.

When you apply the prophecy code, all of Revelation falls neatly into place and you discover that most of it is now history - a true testament to the knowledge of God.

See: http://theprophecygroup.wordpress.com/about/21-2 for more info on the code.

And what about the following:

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Surely this does not refer to one literal 60 minute period of time. There must be some formula in use here as well. Using the year for a day this could mean a time frame of 360(5) hours or 15 days. Since this is still future prophecy we will have to wait and see, but it makes better sense than 60 minutes, wouldn’t you agree?

So I am sticking with the code - it comes straight from the bible, it wasn’t conjured up by anyone trying to make their theories fit. And it works. That’s the best part.

God Bless…

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/24/2010 01:47 am

Jim,

I’m a little unsure just why you use a year/day formula at all. I can sort of understand a 1000 year/day formula (2Ptr 3) but what is the primary basis that you rest upon that determines a prophetic day really means a year? Even Daniel’s prophecy speaks of seventy “sevens”; not seventy weeks. When does the formula apply because the word “day” is used an awful lot throughout the bible? You say, “It should be used in all books of prophecy..,” but if that’s so, did Daniel, in chapter 10, pray for 21 years instead of 21 days? How do you know when to apply it?

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 15:09 pm

Scott,
I disagree with your assertion that the day-for-a-year formula must be specified by the author and is only valid in Leviticus and Ezekiel. If this were so the 70 weeks of Daniel must also be literal and thus the tribulation will only last 7 days, not 7 years.
I have noticed that most people only use the formula when they feel like it or when it better fits their interpretation of scripture. It should be used in all books of prophecy and in my interpretations the formula always works perfectly. There is no need to try to come up with conditions list to tell you when to use it and when not to. If this were true then the bible would explain it for us. Without a conditional list it must be always or never, but if it is never, then it wouldn’t have been mentioned in the first place. So we are left with always, and therefore we should look for the fulfillment based on that fact. Many folks I’ve talked with believe that nothing past Revelation 3 has yet happened, so it is easy for them to say it will all happen between now and the second coming and to make it fit, the formula must be tossed out. I assume you are such a person, therefore your mind is set and you are content to wait it out and then say “See, I told you so.” Until then we will have to agree to disagree.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 08:54 am

Jim,

I’ve got some time to revisit your last two posts.

Honestly, I’m baffled why you should say I’m busted. The Daniel prophecy is given as seventy weeks of years. This can be shown to be true in any number of ways. In other words, the entire prophecy covers 490 years. But no where in the prophecy does it say that these years are consecutive. Rather, they are cumulative. 69 weeks transpire and are fulfilled at the death of Messiah. This leaves just one more week to bring in everlasting righteousness. But this 70th week (7 years) has not yet started. The sign of it’s beginning and end are quite clear but most will not understand it. This prophecy has nothing to do with a year/day formula. In fact, I know of only two places in the bible where such a year/day formula exists and neither one has to do with Peter.

Regarding the year/day formula in Revelation; it is not warranted. The year/day formula is only warranted when the immediate context expressly says so (as in Leviticus and Ezekiel). Revelation clearly counters such a notion. It emphatically says 3.5 years; 1260 days and 42 months; all describing the same event. There is no way these prophecies refer to anything but 1260 literal days.

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/23/2010 06:39 am

Sorry about the sarcasm but don’t take it personally. I always liked Don Rickles so I sometimes emulate him.
But I do get frustrated with people who deny the year for a day formula, yet no-one thinks the tribulation will last one week. It took me a while to wrap my head around it but now that I accept it it is much easier to put prophesy into proper perspective. The correlation between Daniel and Revelation is well documented, but a complete lecture on it takes many hours and I know because I have listened to hundreds of hours of lectures and then read the bible for myself to prove or disprove the theories.
The fact is, they can all be proved from the bible interpreting itself and from standard history books. If you want to know where I learned much of what I know go to www.keyofdavid.com and order a few dozen booklets on the matter. Most of what they have been teaching for over 60 years is now coming true in world politics, after they were laughed at by most Christians. After a few months or years of intense reading perhaps you will come to some new conclusions on this matter. I know it took me almost 5 years from when I began as a life-long catholic to get to where I am today and I am attempting to explain some of what I have learned on my own blog page at http://theprophecygroup.wordpress.com/about/.
See what you think and be the first to blog back on this site.
Jim

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2010 21:55 pm

“You’re busted, dude”??

Do I detect a sarcastic spirit? Even if I am “busted”, why do you write in such terms? Who does it benefit except your own ego? Are you just here to win an argument?

I’m off to work right now. I will respond to your “bust” later. In the meantime, perhaps you would care to eloborate on the reasons you rejected my comments because your “reasons” seem rather lame.

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2010 15:58 pm

Scott,
I read your old comments and I have read the theories long ago and rejected them for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
As for jettisoning the year for a day in Daniel and Revelation, listen to what you said earlier…
Commentary by Scott
Posted on: 3/21/2009 12:15 pm

Note: The “overcomers” are raptured BEFORE the Tribulation; the believers that go THROUGH the Tribulation are resurrected at the end of it; and the 144,000 who are sealed (ch. 7) even go through the 7 year period of God’s wrath (Daniel’s 70th week) and are on earth to WELCOME Christ when He returns. So in otherwords, there is never a time when some Christians are not on the earth.

Commentary by Scott (end)

You’re busted, dude. You state quite clearly that the 70th WEEK of Daniel is 7 YEARS, not 7 DAYS. You quite clearly use the year for a day conversion here. The same 70 week prophecy covers the time from the order to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem after the end of the Babylonian captivity until the anointing of Jesus in 30AD. If not, the 70 weeks would have ended 2500 years ago.
You are using it when it suits you and rejecting it elsewhere. If you fail to be consistent then you will only come up with a messy hodgepodge of an interpretation stitched together with some verses and ignoring many others.
God is not inconsistent nor is he messy. It is all much simpler than most people want to make it out to be, but everyone loves a great mystery, so they tend to muck up the true story and pretend they have found some clever solutions. Its all overactive imaginations - a typical problem in modern times.
But I’m sure you have some hi-tech formula for determiningexactly when and where to apply the day-to-year formula, so enlighten us, won’t you?

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2010 15:45 pm

Jimbo,

You said:

“If Christ is soon to return, there is no way the Book of Revelation is all future.”

I never said it was “all future” in OUR day; however, it WAS all future when John recorded it. Most of Chapters 2 and 3 are fulfilled.

“the fact that there is a 1,260 year time frame mentioned twice in Daniel and twice in Revelation.”

I suggest you jettison the 1 day=1000 years interpretation. It’s not valid in Revelation OR Daniel.

“I’m afraid that you’re assumption that all prophetic books are pure future and can’t contain a recap of history..”

Please read my comments more carefully. If you know the difference between prophetic symbolism and metaphors; you will also conclude that NO prophet has ever used symbolism for a past event. The prophetic books contain lots of history but it is never portrayed symbolically.

“If Revelation 12 is not describing the birth of the savior I would like to hear just what you think it describes.”

Go back to the first page of this thread and read through pages 3 or 4.

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2010 13:58 pm

Scott,
I have heard of two Vatican theories about the Book of Revelation - one says it has all happened before it was written and that the pope is the returned Christ. The other is that nothing in it has yet happened. Both are crazy and requires pulling out a few quotes and disregarding everything else. The catholic church uses the latter to say that Jesus will never return and the popes will reign on earth forever. I’m not buying it.
Many people believe that the entire book of Revelation will unfold in a few years. After all we only have a short time left if you believe we are in the last generation according to the Olivet prophecy. But they do not take into account the fact that there is a 1,260 year time frame mentioned twice in Daniel and twice in Revelation. If Christ is soon to return, there is no way the Book of Revelation is all future. After all, all prophecy has to begin sometime or else it is worthless.
If Revelation 12 is not describing the birth of the savior I would like to hear just what you think it describes. After all it must happen very soon and even the first life of Jesus lasted for 33 years so this prophecy had better get cracking if you are correct. I’m afraid that you’re assumption that all prophetic books are pure future and can’t contain a recap of history or the present (of the authors time) has led you an interpretation that will simply never begin. The pope would be proud of you though, so you hang in there.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2010 00:32 am

All Scripture has ONE interpretation; but it may have many different applications.

The Interpretation of the woman is Israel… Though certain things about her may certainly “apply” to the Church; the nation of Israel and even, I suppose Mary.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 21:03 pm

Jimbo,

A couple of challenges to your interpretation of the Woman. You said:

“In prophecy, “woman” always refers to a church, or more correctly God’s people.”

But Rev. 17 is all about a Woman who represents anything BUT God’s people. You also said:

“Much of this chapter (12) was history, not future prophecy since it was written 97 years after the birth of Jesus.”

However, no part of chapter 12 could be HISTORY unless, of course, your interpretation (”This verse illustrates how Israel gave birth to the savior..”) is correct. But in order for that to be so, you would have to upset the whole of the Book of Revelation that emphatically states in chapter 1 that it is all prophecy. Furthermore, in every instance throughout the Bible where a prophet uses symbolism, not once is it ever used for purposes of HISTORY; rather, it is ALWAYS used for purposes of future events. IMHO, NO part of chapter 12 has happened yet.

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 14:00 pm

While there are many dual references in the bible, this is not one of them. In prophecy, “woman” always refers to a church, or more correctly God’s people. Before Christ was born, this was the Israelites but after the birth of Jesus the church changed to the Christian church. Christ’s intention was not to create a new religion but to change Judaism but things got messed up by the Roman emperors and later followers, so there was the split we have today.
This verse illustrates how Israel gave birth to the savior and how Jesus and his flock were hated by Satan. Of course this involves Mary and the nation of Israel as well as the Holy Roman Empire where the early church resided and which has now become the Vatican empire, so to speak. Much of this chapter was history, not future prophecy since it was written 97 years after the birth of Jesus. The main part of the prophecy is verses 14 and 17. In verst 14 we read:
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
This is a clue to the upcoming beast in chapter 13. We see that the true church (referred to as a “remnant”) is protected from the devil for what adds up to in prophetic years (1 day = 1 year) 1,260 years, the exact duration of the Holy Roman Empire.
How did the Holy Roman Empire (the Vatican church) become the beast? Just read verse 17:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Here we read that the true church (a small remnant of the early church) keeps the commandment, therefore the apostate church does not. Is this true? Well, the early Christian church was forced to merge with Roman paganism by the emperor Justinian when he created a single religion for the empire. They kept the Roman holy day - Sunday, as they were sun worshippers, and they refused to destroy their idols and statues of their gods so the early church officials moved the sabbath to Sunday and erased the second commandment (no graven images) in order to comply. They also adopted the Roman festivals of Saturnalia and Ishtar and turned them into Christmas and easter, something God is not to happy about. These transgressions will be destroyed as we read later in Revelation about the destruction of “Mystery Babylon” which refers to an ancient religion from the time of Nimrod which led to Baal worship. It eventually filtered down thru successive conquests into the Roman empire and now still exists in many of today’s churches.
As for so called “Apparitions of the blessed virgin Mary” I don’t believe that any were actually Mary but more likely the work of Satan himself, as some sort of dodge. According Jesus himself, those who have died are all “asleep” awaiting resurrection at his second coming. Therefore Mary is, like all the saints, still asleep. She is not the “Queen of Heaven” as the catholic church teaches. That title was originally given to Semiramis (wife of Nimrod and mother of Tammuz - the false savior) and was part of Roman paganism that blended with the early church. The catholic church is Babylon and its paganism will be destroyed when Jesus returns to marry his true remnant.Praying to Mary (or any saint or dead person) is a violation of the second commandment, but oh wait… it doesn’t exist according to the catholic bible. Does anyone see a problem with this? So what is an “approved apparition? You just have to look at who is doing the approving and you will find the root of the problem.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 12:04 pm

Jay,

The symbolic woman of Revelation 12 cannot simultaneous be the Church; the nation of Israel and Mary. It must only be one of the three; or NONE of the three. There is NO biblical symbolism that has multiple meanings. God is not the author of confusion.

By Scott Dale (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/3/2010 05:51 am

She is Mary is Woman revalation 12:1
The Ark of the Covenant as described in the Old Testament Book of Exodus was the sanctuary for the Holy of Holies, the tabernacle in which was the dwelling-place of the Lord. In the Book of Revelation, the Ark of the Covenant precedes the “Woman clothed with the sun,” as described in the above passage. Just as the Ark of the Covenant was the dwelling-place filled by the presence of the Lord God, the Blessed Virgin Mary became the dwelling-place for Jesus Christ, the Word made Flesh, as described in the Gospel of Luke.

Who is the Woman clothed with the sun? St. John in his Gospel was the first to implicitly refer to Mary as the new Eve, the woman of Genesis 3:15. St. John’s Gospel refers to Mary, the mother of Jesus, as woman at the wedding feast at Cana (John 2:1-5), at the Cross (John 19:25-26), and here in Revelation 12:1. The word woman suggests deep symbolism, as “woman” was not the customary or polite way in Semitic cultures to refer to a mother. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, the Messiah who will rule with an iron rod (Psalm 2:9), and who is caught up to God and his throne (Revelation 12:5). Reaffirming the Tradition of the Church, Pope Pius X in 1904, Pope Pius XII in 1950, and Pope John Paul ll, in his 1995 encyclical The Gospel of Life, stated that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the “woman clothed with the sun” in Revelation 12:1.

The woman also serves as a collective symbol for both Israel and the Church. She is Israel, the Daughter of Zion, the nation from whom the Messiah comes, the community of faith and obedience that awaits the birth of the Messiah (Isaiah 66:7). In Hebrew a country is expressed in the feminine tense, as mother of her inhabitants. The symbol clearly refers to the Church, for Jesus at the Cross gives his Mother Mary to his disciple (John 19:26-27). The Church are the faithful disciples of Christ, whom the dragon in Revelation 12:17 went “to make war with the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”

The ending of the twentieth century has witnessed an overwhelming number of reported appearances of Mary, suggesting we are entering the end times prophesied by the Book of Revelation. While public revelation - the Bible - is a matter of faith, one does not have to accept private revelation, such as apparitions. However, one cannot ignore the profound effect of historical apparitions such as Guadalupe, Lourdes, and Fatima. The following is a list of the approved Apparitions of Mary.

By Jay Kamble (wrote 4 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/1/2010 10:30 am

“woman clothed with the sun” in Revelation 12:1.
The woman also serves as a collective symbol for both Israel and the Church. She is Israel, the Daughter of Zion, the nation from whom the Messiah comes, the community of faith and obedience that awaits the birth of the Messiah (Isaiah 66:7). In Hebrew a country is expressed in the feminine tense, as mother of her inhabitants. The symbol clearly refers to the Church, for Jesus at the Cross gives his Mother Mary to his disciple (John 19:26-27). The Church are the faithful disciples of Christ, whom the dragon in Revelation 12:17 went “to make war with the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”

By Jay Kamble (wrote 4 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/1/2010 10:27 am

Mary is woman Revalation 12:1
1 Woman is Rev12:1 is woman who lead us Isreal and twllstar is show the 12 Disiple of Jesus.
She is able to birth of Criest.Mary Gauide to disple of Jesus and Rev. 12:1 woman is symabole of thes.St jhon chapter 2.
She part of Glory of the God. ark of the Covenent Rev 11:19

By Jay Kamble (wrote 4 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/1/2010 10:25 am

Hi lisent By God Grace its Mother Mary
The Ark of the Covenant as described in the Old Testament Book of Exodus was the sanctuary for the Holy of Holies, the tabernacle in which was the dwelling-place of the Lord. In the Book of Revelation, the Ark of the Covenant precedes the “Woman clothed with the sun,” as described in the above passage. Just as the Ark of the Covenant was the dwelling-place filled by the presence of the Lord God, the Blessed Virgin Mary became the dwelling-place for Jesus Christ, the Word made Flesh, as described in the Gospel of Luke.

Who is the Woman clothed with the sun? St. John in his Gospel was the first to implicitly refer to Mary as the new Eve, the woman of Genesis 3:15. St. John’s Gospel refers to Mary, the mother of Jesus, as woman at the wedding feast at Cana (John 2:1-5), at the Cross (John 19:25-26), and here in Revelation 12:1. The word woman suggests deep symbolism, as “woman” was not the customary or polite way in Semitic cultures to refer to a mother. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, the Messiah who will rule with an iron rod (Psalm 2:9), and who is caught up to God and his throne (Revelation 12:5). Reaffirming the Tradition of the Church, Pope Pius X in 1904, Pope Pius XII in 1950, and Pope John Paul ll, in his 1995 encyclical The Gospel of Life, stated that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the “woman clothed with the sun” in Revelation 12:1.

By Jay Kamble (wrote 4 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/1/2010 10:08 am

Battlefield

Dont try to explain your mind
I know whats happening here
One minute its love
and suddenly its a battlefield

One word turns into a war
Why is it the smallest things tear us down
My world is nothing if you dont
Im not here without a shield
cant go back now

Both hands, tied behind my back for nothing
Oh no, when we climb so fast to fall again
Why we gotta fall for it now?

I never meant to start a war
You know I never meant to hurt you oh-oh
Dont even know what we’re fightin for

Why does love always feel like a battlefield
A battlefield, a battlefield
Why does love always feel like a battlefield
A battlefield, a battlefield
Why does love always feel like?

Cant swallow our pride
Neither of us want to raise that flag
If we cant surrender than we both gonna lose
What we had, oh no!

Both hands tied behind my back for nothin
Oh no! These times we climb so fast to fall again
I dont want to fall for it now!

I never meant to start a war
You know I never meant to hurt you oh-oh
Dont even know what we’re fightin for

Why does love always feel like a battlefield
A battlefield, a battlefield
Why does love always feel like a battlefield
A battlefield, a battlefield

I guess you better get your armor
(Get your armor, get your armor)
I guess you better get your armor
(Get your armor, get your armor)
I guess you better go and get your

We could pretend we are friends tonight
OH, Oh, Oh
And in the morning we will wake up and be alright
cause baby we dont have to fight
and I dont want this love to feel like

A battlefield, a battlefield, a battlefield
Why does love always feel like a battlefield
a battlefield, a battlefield

I guess you better go get your armor

I never meant to start a war
You know I never meant to hurt you oh-oh
Dont even know what we’re fightin for…

If we are fighting each other, then we are on opposite sides…

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/10/2010 06:24 am

I have also come across information about gov’t shills and other similar personalities that make careers out of being shills. Their attributes stand out as such: First, they befriend you. Then once they have courted you and gained your trust they blast you with number and name twisting. They “try to lead you” and if you dont listen then you are of the devil. Then they just push more verses of the bible along with other constant jargon that has no relevance in order to make you feel stupid. These “shills” make careers out of their vendetta to spread misinformation to the masses. They are bullies. They pretend they can teach you and lead the way when all they do is promote confusion. Dont fall into the traps of the leaders on this site. They are evil. Go somewhere else and dont let them patronize you. Read the earlier threads and see if I am lying. Fozman is among the worst. Do not trust him. Good luck to you all in legance to the truth. …Christina

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/10/2010 04:54 am

Glad to see everyone have fun with the Bethula/Virgo lead I gave to Fozman and others way earlier in the threads. My hold is still that the woman is a real mother out there somewhere. Nostradamus might hold some of the proof I needed. Here is a recent article I found.

Nostradamus Secret Legend Revealed
in Ancient Ciphertext - Art of Coded Writing

A Bold, Secret Legend Veiled Almost 500 Years…

An ancient, prophetic tale has secretly lurked ciphered safely within aged journals. This hidden tale depicts the life events of a 20th century family who exemplify the rise to consciousness in an age when testimonials and proofs of life, death, resurrection, and interaction with divine forces are permitted and better understood. The people in this family exemplify the art of undying - resurrection - in an age when the forces of divine truth overturn ignorance and defy murderous inquisition. The ciphertext has long caused grave controversy and debate but this hidden tale has remained safely encoded for hundreds of years - safe from the prying eyes of those who would profane it as well as from clergy and world sages. Nostradamus stated that after almost 500 years of shrouded mystery an interpreter would bring his verses to true light and understanding, halting naive debate. Read the hidden legend now for the very first time….

The author presents a very personal story as well as concepts and tangible proofs that will shock the world! The very accurate, detailed method of deciphering is explained from its original, multilingual ciphertext to basic ancient French then translated to English verses. The profoundly deep insinuations of the truths of prophecy; the magical, ingenious workings of the higher mind in divine writings; tangible proof of the Divine order, and the Divine plan of heaven for all human life through the Law of God are among the many staggering impacts of this secret legend as it provides ample evidence of the immortal life of the Spirit. More mind-boggling than The Bible Code, this work does not offer hints at deciphered code but instead a very exact science of the ancient, alchemical art of the permutation of letters with the deciphered legend bringing a bold, hidden message to humankind.

Even though Fozman and many others didnt want to listen, I continue to find more and more evidence that I am right. See ya later.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 4/10/2010 02:50 am

Julius,

The reason I do not pursue most authors is because they do not address the discrepancies so often associated with their thesis. You can easily see this “attitude” in the past postings of this dialogue. Most important questions I have posed are deflected or out rightly ignored. In addition, I’ve noticed that most authors fail to recognize & consider some very simple “quirks” that so often sets their thesis into circular reasoning.

For instance, who says there is only one tribulation? Thinking there is one long GREAT tribulation has pitted pre-tribbers against mid-tribbers, against post-tribbers. All three “camps” of thought never stop to think that there are multiple tribulations, the very last being the greatest of them all; thus, the reason Jesus calls it THE GREAT TRIBULATION. The result is that when these theologian/author attempt to prove their thesis on one tribulation, they are already at a disadvantage because they cannot formulate a proper timeline . . . . because the foundation of their timeline is compromised.

Jesus lists multiple tribulations that come before the GREAT TRIBULATION. There are wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilences . . . . which he calls the “begging of sorrows”. (Matt 24:8, Mark 13:8) The word means “birth pangs”. These all occur before the abominations of desolations is revealed . . . . after which the GREAT TRIB is unleashed.

I see each seal and each trump as a tribulation in and of itself. They are separate events with heavy outcomes. And I see the GREAT TRIB as only that event when God has removed believers from the earth (either by rapture or martyrdom) and now the last judgment comes down upon the wicked of the earth. Made up of the 7 vials, the GREAT TRIB comes after the seals & trumps. And the “catching up” of believers happens during the time of one of God’s trump (1 Thess 4:16); more specifically, the last trump (1 Cor 15:52).

And if believers are not “caught up” to God until the last trump (there are seven trumps in the book of Rev), then does said believers experience the trumps that precede the last trump (there would be 6 trumps)? And since simple math suggests believers will then experience the 6 preceding trumps, would that constitute believers experiencing the “beginning of sorrows” (Matt 24:8, Mark 13:8) and even the advanced birth pangs (Rev 12:2)?

What are these world events found in the 6 trumps?

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/7/2010 05:11 am

Thanks for your “Verse by Verse” site. Interestingly, John Darby’s pretrib rapture basis for 30 years was the Rev. 12:5 (symbolic) “man child” that is caught up - symbolism that he “borrowed” from Edward Irving who had already been using this symbol for the same pretrib purpose eight years before Darby adopted it. I found these details in Dave MacPherson’s bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books online). Speaking of prophecy, I found a rather unusual article “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice” on the Dec. 29th version of Joe Ortiz’s “End Times Passover” blog. The world sure is getting interesting, right? Julius

By Julius (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 1/5/2010 06:58 am

You are right about the Cumbra Vieja volcano in the Caharies. I Google earthed it and looked at many of the local photos and it looks like the entire south end of the island is a mile high and very loose rock. Plus most of it is underwater so there is a boatload of debris ready to slide away. It will probably go off on its own without any outside influence needed.
As for Yellowstone, it has recently become very active and it is already 40,000 years overdue for an eruption. If it were to be struck by a meteor that would likely trigger the eruption by creating a crater and reducing the overburden allowing the magma to escape - similar to when an earthquake caused a landslide on the north side of Mt. St. Helens causing a northward directed eruption rather than the vertical one everyone was expecting.
That could be the trumpet of rev 9:1-3. This verse even explains how the smoke darkens the sun and sky. The Yellowstone magma chamber has just been found to go very deep into the mantle - easily seen as a bottomless pit.
Its amazing that as crazy as the judgements sound, we can find matching natural disasters ready to happen - all around the same time. It also looks like My Vesuvius is going to wipe out Naples as well in the near future.
And have you seen the show on Bible Code where they found two references to a comet in 2012? One that will possibly hit the earth, not the kind you watch with a telescope. I’m not sure if the bible code theory is sound but I sure find it interesting. It makes me wonder when the seals will be opened. Perhaps sooner than we thought - prior to the tribulation period and well before any rapture. We may find out soon.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/8/2009 10:42 am

Jim,

I’m in much agreement with you assessment of the blood moon, dark sun, etc, etc, etc, stuff. As I see it, if scripture is truly suggesting a blood moon event, only a couple scriptures would address that, and they are not necessarily in the trumpet judgments. Those scriptures that also speak of the sun/moon not giving light in conjunction with the stars falling cannot be a blood moon event. This is where some of the “blood moon” web-site-ministries muff it up. They see a couple of corresponding attributes and then make the mistake of dialing in the entire package. They fail to stop and even consider that there may be multiple events being described; that is to say, both a blood moon event causing the moon to turn to blood AND other catastrophic cosmic events causing the moon to turn red along with along with falling stars. The delineating factor that I see is those passages speaking of the stars falling from heaven in conjunction with a sun & moon description. Sounds like meteor showers, which a blood moon event could never produce. But the bottom line is that I believe there is a great possibility that different passages are describing two or more events; a blood moon may be just one of them . . . but your spot on when you say a blood moon is no description of the trumpet judgments.

However, their affiliation with 2015’s Passover and Tabernacles is no small matter either.

I, too, have speculated as to Near-Earth-Objects; especially Apophis. However, I just saw a program on National Geo where a few thousand pound meteor showed up unexpectedly an exploded in the atmosphere somewhere in the middle of no-where over Africa or Arabia. It had the energy of an atomic bomb. The point is, our scientists cannot discern even big objects until its too late.

Regardless, any type of significant meteor/comet strike that does the damage of Wormwood would most probably infuse the atmosphere with a tremendous amount of debris and dust. The debris will fall back as the meteor showers (falling stars), the dust would affect the light wave-lengths you spoke of. I’ve heard of the moon turning to blood in areas of intense volcanic dust in the atmosphere for that very reason. A large cosmic strike could easily do that, and produce the magnitude of destruction suggested in the 7 Seals & 7 Trumps. (I, too, have been studying both intensely of late . . . . such the reason to challenge the blogs to raise some dust of my own. Much can be gleaned in heated discussions.)

Would that mountain you hinted at be in the Canary Islands off the Coast of Africa? Sounds like one of the Islands is ready to cave into the ocean and send a 300 foot, 500 mph tsunami into America’s eastern seaboard. I also wonder about any scripture that might hint at the Yellowstone caldera popping off . . . . or a combination of all the above. In other words, could a large cosmic strike produce enough energy to explode Yellowstone and collapse that island in the Canary’s? Time will tell.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/7/2009 10:33 am

I think you are falling into a common trap about the blood red moon. The prophecy is not describing a lunar eclipse. I am assuming you are referring to Rev 6:12/13. There stars fall from the sky and produce a great earthquake and the sun and moon are darkened. Besides studying to be an astronomer when I was a kid I later took over 100 units of geology in college so this stuff is right up my alley. I have been studying the trumpet judgements of chapter 8 and have been looking for possible natural disasters that are likely to occur soon. The star wormwood that falls from the sky could be the apophis asteroid scheduled to come within just a few hundred miles of earth in 2029. If its orbit is angelically nudged it could hit the earth and cause a humongous earthquake and kick so much dust into the atmosphere we would experience near-darkness and virtual winter for years. This is what killed off the dinosaurs and most other life on earth 65 million years ago.
So the sun moon and stars “shall not give their light” and due to the scattering of shorter wavelengths of light, the sun will always look like it does at sundown (red) and because the moon is dimmer, will appear as an even deeper shade of red. While its true that the moon also appears blood red during an eclipse, that is due to the bending (refraction) of red light as it passes thru the atmosphere of the earth allowing it to reach the hidden moon. Interestingly, if the atmosphere was filled with dust, even the red wavelengths would be absorbed and the moon would not even be visible during an eclipse.
Some folks go as far as to assume the sun being darkened is a solar eclipse, but you can’t have them both at the same time. There is often a lunar eclipse 2 weeks after a solar eclipse - that is so common as to be totally uneventful. I can’t believe that a trumpet judgement could be as trivial as an eclipse. I think its going to be way more spectacular. Wouldn’t you agree?
Hope this gets you thinking some more.
Jim
I believe I also know where the mountain of fire that falls into the sea is located - a disaster predicted by scientists for the last 25 years and which they say is already 50 years overdue - kind of like the “Big One” we’ve been waiting for here in So. Cal for 30 years now. I believe it may be waiting for the tribulation and by that time it will be a whopper. NOT looking forward to it.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/7/2009 01:06 am

Hi fozman,
I’ve been thinking more about the Rev 12 / Virgo connection I checked out yesterday and I now believe 5n the connection to the constellation as well as the feast of trumpets. I don’t know why I didn’t recognize it right away. It obviously represents a virgin giving birth to a man child on the feast of trumpets. Thanks again for the insight.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/7/2009 00:25 am

Let me start with the word Kings. I have no problem believing that a king represents his kindom as he is not much of a king without it. The terms are interchangeable. If you can claim that a mark is a chip i can say a king is his kingdom. Its not a stretch - unless you are desperate to disprove it.
As for the 7th head (the revived roman empire) lasting a short space, well the EU doesn’t become official until Jan 1, 2010. It will only last until christ returns. Compared to the original roman empire, this will definitely be a short space.This has nothing to do with Napoleon. By the way, was John supposed to use the word “Gun” instead of sword? What was the greek word for gun in the year 95? Also, it is not the pope that receives the wound, it is the beast - the vatican itself. For a while it looked like the vatican system was dead - never another pope. But it’s baaaaack! The beast is not the pope, the false prophet is. He issues the mark but the term beast is kind of used loosely in revelation.

As for rev 17, thats the future - during the tribulation. Im not talking about that here.

As for persecution fitting other people or empires, so what? John was simply describing the vatican. It fits. Don’t be like the people that say that the city of the seven hills the woman sits on could be any one of over 25 cities worldwide that are built on 7 hills. John was talking about Rome. He shouldn’t have to explain why all other possibilities are wrong. Same for Hitler and Stalin. They don’t fit since they didn’t kill the beast. Napoleon did.

The vatican in fact did exersize the mark of the beast after the council of laodicea they began forced Sunday worship and martyred millions for not cooperating. (remember, 7th dayers don’t believe the mark is a chip but a breaking of the 4th commandment.)

The vatican has had many saints that all must have performed at least two verifiable miracles to achieve sainthood. They are full of niracles.
The vatican did have authority over ALL the nations in the Holy roman empire. Never assume the word all meand every single person on the planet. God only cares about his people and his church. And the church has expanded to include the whole world - there are christians in virtually every country on earth. Remember prophecy is largely told in symbolism so you can’t take every single word literally, but you already know that.
The RCC is not the 8th king(dom). That is the revived holy roman empire, something the new EU is already claiming to be. They claim to be in the spirit of Charlemagne - the first holy roman emperor. When the vatican (actually the new one-world church under the pope) merges officially with the EU, probably during the tribulation, the prophecy will be completed, but it will only last a very short time (one hour) before christ returns.
Please dont give me a literal hour. We know that prophetic time is often not literal. The church does ride on the vatican system which is the second beast or the 6th king(dom).
Those last ten horns have not yet appeared and the vatican is not yet destroyed, but we can agree that it will be. I doubt that those horns will just be persons. It would be hard to belive the the entire vatican could be taken down by only ten kiings or leaders. They will need help from their kingdoms, don’t you think?
So if the first beast wasn’t the holy roman empire what was Daniel describing? He has it coming right out of the end of the roman beast empire. And we know he always used the year for a day so if he was not describing that has already happened, then when your 5th kingdom (first beast) shows up we will have to wait 1260 years before it is finished. And then we have to wait for the next beast, then the 7th king, then the eighth. If thats the case than we might as well forget the prophecy - it’s not for our times.
And how do you account for the exact match in the duration of the beast as 1260 years. Daniel nailed it as usual. John simply referred to his prophecy. In fact virtually all of revelation can be found in the old testament, somewhere. Or so I’ve heard.
Anyway, i hope i have cleared up the interpretation at least to some extent. I learned it years ago but I had to read the chapter many times to see the fit. But it won’t work if your mind is already closed to it so i suggest you clear your mind of preconceptions and take a fresh look. You will feel much better when you realize the word of God is true. He predicted the history of the holy lands from Babylon to the present. He didn’t leave a 2000 year gap in it either. Believe me it is a wonderful revelation to see all that prophecy having happened and knowing that there is so little left before christ returns. (Except of course for that nasty tribulation - or for you the free pass rapture).
In any case i will pray that you see the light. If I’m wrong I guess we will be here blogging for the next millennium. God save my poor neuropathic fingers!

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2009 15:42 pm

And now in reference to the study you sent me. . . .

First, I believe the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) leadership is without a doubt “antiChrist”. (And I believe the Vatican has been and always will be the fulfillment of the whore described in Rev 17.)

Jesus and the apostles taught antiX was already among them (1 John 2:18: ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.) I conclude from John that there is a difference between “antiX” and THE “antiX”. As for the Popes having the 666 equate to their name and or title . . . . yes, many did. So to, did Nero, Ronald Regan, George Bush, and Prince Charles of Whales. Interesting facts on Prince Charles: his Coat of Arms includes the “little horn”, the Red Dragon, and all the images included in Rev 13’s beast. (As you put it . . . . “Coincidence?”) Google it.

Unfortunately, theologians too often fail to realize there are/were many antiX’s. And too often they seem to believe the word “beast” found in our English translations refer to the same thing. Yet, even the four creatures that worship God around his thrown are called “beasts.” (Rev 4:6,8,9 – 5:6,8, 11, — 6:1,6,8 – and more).

My point? The “beasts” one passage is referring to may not be the “beast” another passage is referring to.

The beast I am referring to is spelled out in Revelation 17:12 “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”

I note that the 10 horns are called “kings” not “kingdoms”. The passage you provided me in Dan 7:24 also identifies the 10 horns as “kings” not “kingdoms”. A word study on the word “horn” and its usage demonstrates a constant throughout the bible that that word “horn” refers to a person, not a kingdom. Even Messiah is referenced as the horn of Israel (Note: horn = Messiah = 1 person. Israel is not called the horn.)

But I see people taking the liberty to morph the word “king” into the word “kingdoms.” And with just a little changing of God’s word the 10 horns become “kingdoms.” Of course, this gives them a new platform they can launch their doctrine from.

Sorry; this is where I draw the line. I will not change what the word says. Morphing “kings” into “kingdoms” changes the word of God. Changing even a jot or a title of God’s word is an activity which has some rather strong rebukes given against in God’s word. It is a double standard, and it eliminates any form of consistency and the absoluteness of God’s word. The Catholic Church does this without a second thought to justify their dogmas and traditions. Have we stooped to their standards?

Want more proof the 10 horns are 10 individuals as opposed to 10 kingdoms?

Examine Rev 17:12 “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten KINGS, which have RECEIVE NO KINGDOM as yet . . . .”

How can a kingdom receive a kingdom? They cannot. Kings receive a kingdoms, just as the above passage specifically states. And the last time I checked, Kings are individual persons.

Examine Rev 17:16-17 “And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore . . . (17) For God hath put in THEIR HEARTS to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give THEIR kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.”

First, kingdoms don’t have “hearts” to be filled with hate. Second, the 10 horns are described with the pronoun “THEIR”. Third, kingdoms do not give kingdoms. Kings do. They give their kingdoms to the beast.

And looking to your scenario, I must ask the question, “How many years unfolded in the events surrounding your scenario of the Napoleon/Vatican conspiracy?” I ask this because I have to account for that part of scripture that states the 7th head that “continues for a SHORT SPACE.” I also have to account for the 10 horns for “receiving power with the beast for 1 hour.” (Rev 17:10-12) “1 hour” is a metaphor for a very “short time.”

I have to account for such things.

Now, maybe you don’t have to account for such scriptures. But I attempt to live by a different standard. My standard is to account for ALL-ALL-ALL the attributes given in scripture, just not those that conveniently support a specific agenda. When I before the Lord, I want to tell him with confidence that I applied such a standard before calling myself a teacher of his word.

I cannot account for Napoleon’s activities (as well as the Vatican’s) constituting “continuing a short space” and receiving power for “one hour.”

Then there’s the comment, “He that leadeth into captivity . . . .” describing Napoleon’s actions to a tee. . . . Well, it also describes most dictators, rulers, kings, and fore the most any other human being (that employs the actions described by Jesus) to a tee. Or do you think Stalin, or Hitler, or Mou never put people into captivity? I find the attempt to pin this specifically on Napoleon simply amazing. Oh, by the way, did Napoleon literally use a sword (since this is supposedly is a literal fulfillment by Napoleon)? I thought they used fire arms back then. And is it the pope or the Vatican corporate that is the beast, because the pope that allegedly died in prison did not die of a sword strike, nor was he resurrected again to rule again (as the beast is said to). And if the beast is the Vatican, well, the entire Vatican corporate was never imprisoned, much less died there. That is to say, all the kings horses and all the kings men were still quite alive and functioning as a corporation.

I quote “And all the attributes given to the beast in revelation 13 fit the catholic church (persecuting the saints - including the woman of rev 12 - during the inquisition etc.) perfectly.”

What?

First, maybe the persecution part perfectly fits the Vatican. But it perfectly fits anyone or any kingdom or any religion that persecuted and persecutes Xians. Or is the Vatican the only corporate body to kill Xians?

No, very few of the attributes of Rev 13 fit the Vatican. I note that the Vatican never did miracles or caused fire to come down from heaven causing ALL-ALL-ALL the world to wonder (Rev 13:13). The Vatican never produced the mark of the beast and attempt to burned said mark into the forehead and right hand of ALL-ALL-ALL the peoples of the earth (Rev 13:17). The Vatican never employed a world wide financial system founded with said mark. The Vatican was never given power/authority over ALL-ALL-ALL kindreds, and tongues, and nations (Rev 13:7) The Vatican never received the worship of ALL-ALL-ALL that dwell upon the earth shall (Rev 13:8).

Please account for these attributes, because I have to.

Finally, the RCC is not the 8th head. Rather, the RCC is the whore. My bible says the beast carries the whore. I must conclude that the 7th head (which is the 8th head) is a world leader who carries the woman/whore; the RCC (Rev 17:7) You cannot be both the beast and the whore. The scriptures I provided you differentiates the two. And the 10 horns will make the whore desolate, naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire; that is to say, utterly destroy her). When was the Vatican finally eradicated by anyone in history. I guess never, cause they’re still here.
Jimbo, the stuff your teaching may be a partial fulfillment based on allegory. But when all the “attributes” articulated in scripture are applies, your system falls apart.

Or can you account for the things I listed above?

Because I have to.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2009 12:58 pm

Not when applied to the 70 Weeks of Daniel, which nearly all scholars do call years.

In which case it equals 3.5 years . . . . just as I have attempting to convince you of (3.5 years, not 1260 years.)

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2009 12:54 pm

Yo fozman,
I just came across an important piece of prophecy that everybody uses to indicate the entrance of the no timeAntichrist when he makes a peace plan between Israel and its enemies:
DANIEL 9:27 NKJV
“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
According to your logic the Antichrist will only last for 7 days - the tribulation will be over in no time!
Here are a couple of prophecy symbol tables. Check out woman, stars and day/time.
http://www.revelationbibleprophecy.org/prophecy_symbols.html
http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre00symbols.html#time
Now you have a couple more bible authorities that you can write to and call them idiots.
Have fun!

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2009 12:20 pm

Thanks for the study. I will definitely dig into it.

Also, I just Googled “Virgo Revelation 12″ to check up on the “bogusness” you mentioned. You were correct. The sites I discovered a few years back have either been removed or overwhelmed by all the nut jobs attempting to pontificate their wares. The sites that have flooded this engine search are worse than bogus; some are down right “whacked”.

My appologies for not checking this out to see the current postings on the web. When I get time, I’ll attempt to track down the original sites that I discovered a few years back. They had the star charts and all the particulars expressing their findings.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2009 09:58 am

fozman,
First let me say that none of rev 14 has happened yet - I only meant 12-13, sorry. The history involved is complex so I will just give you a brief overview of the beast with seven heads and ten horns.
The beast in question is the Holy Roman Empire, controlled by the Vatican and the pope.
Now, we must also reference the book of Daniel which correlates with rev13:
I will start at Dan 7:24 - right after he describes his fourth beast, the Roman empire on which I’m sure we all agree on.

Dan 7:24…”And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.”

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

These are obviously the same reference. The ten horns with the crowns are called the kings in Daniel, but they are identical.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Now, this is obviously a reference to the four beast-kingdoms described by Daniel - Rome, Greece, Medo-Persia and Babylon. Backwards of course since Daniel was looking forward and John is looking back. So what he is about to describe is a continuation of Daniel’s prophecy and there is no reason to believe there is a 2000 year gap in the story.

Daniel is the key which is why so many miss it in revelation. He is talking about ten kingdoms (countries) that arise out of the Roman empire. Among them are three arian countries - the Visigoths, the Ostragoths and the Heruli. These were known as Arian countries and while Christian they believed that Jesus was created by the Father and was less than a true God. The Vatican had issues with this (check the council of nicea) and eventually ordered its armies to wipe them out completely.

Here’s more from Daniel:
Dan 7:8   I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
This new horn is the Vatican or the church power which shared power with the ten new kingdoms o the former roman empire. And as he predicted this horn would pluck up three of those ten kings.
The Great things spoken by the church are blasphemies, as we see later and in revelation.
Dan 7:25   And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Now we get two more important clues. The horn changes Gods laws and times - altered his commandments. The church did exactly this - it removed the second commandment and split the 10th into two. (Still in the current catholic bible). It also changed the time of the sabbath from Saturday to the roman’s SUN day.
And notice how long this power would last - time, times and half a time. If you have studied Daniel’s prophecy of 70 weeks Dan 9 24-27) you know he used the day as a year principle, or else he was terribly wrong about the appearance of the Messiah. Now, we know that the holy roman empire started in 538 under the last roman emperor, Justinian when he made his uncle/general the pope and emperor before he left for Constantinople. The HRE was delivered a fatal blow by the sword when Napoleon (the last emperor) had the pope seized and thrown into a dungeon in Paris where he died and the papacy died with him (for a while).
This happened in 1798. Do the math: The HRE lasted exactly 1260 years. Just a coincidence? Did Daniel really think it was only going to last 3.5 years? I think not.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
Here it is again. Line for line with Daniel.
Rev 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

This describes Napoleon’s actions to a tee.

Now lets look at what happens to the Vatican after Napoleon. It took 3 years (after Napoleon was defeated) for another pope to be elected and in 1929 the Vatican was given international status as a nation-state (a religious kingdom if you will) by who else but Mussolini - no doubt a devil-possesd man as was Hitler.
The deadly wound has certainly been healed.
And all the attributes given to the beast in revelation 13 fit the catholic church (persecuting the saints - including the woman of rev 12 - during the inquisition etc.) perfectly.
And not coincidentally, this very same beast IS the whore of Babylon to be destroyed when Christ returns.

So that’s where we are right now, but on Jan 1st, the 7th kingdom will finally be official - the revived Roman Empire - when the treaty of Lisbon is signed. That leaves only the 8th and last kingdom - the revived Holy roman empire when the Vatican merges with the EU. No stretch of the imagination with the Islamic threat looming.

As for the Antichrist - he comes from the 6th kingdom - the Vatican. I believe as Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Knox among others believed 500 years ago - the catholic church led by its “corporate image” the Pope, will be the Antichrist. They believed that all the popes were Antichrists for they claim they are Christ in the flesh (For many shall come in my name). And the title of the popes - Vicarvs Filii Dei - add up to 666 in roman numerals . Another coincidence?

So the prophecy is simpler than most people think. It doesn’t jump all around the world like so many believe. It all starts in Babylon and ends there - from actual Babylon to spiritual Babylon. It is the history of the church from beginning to end - from the birth of Jesus until his return, and beyond.

Well maybe all this correlation with history is mere coincidence. Do the math and figure the odds. I stopped when they reached 4 trillion to 1. BUT maybe you’re better at math than me so let me know what you come up with.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2009 09:43 am

I have to agree with you on most of this, especially the Feast of Tabernacles.

Not sure which sites you visited. I’m not an Astronomer so the “bogusness” would be difficult for me to discern and/or verify. I relied on the fact that there are multiple sites (like a half a dozen) making reference to Virgo in conjunction with cosmic events equating to Rev 12. Multiple sites do not make a thing factual. Thus, this may warrant deeper investigation, possibly through NASA.

Not sure what the sites said about eclipses, either, nor the significance the authors of said sites put on then. There are a couple (I believe) of blood moon eclipses supposed to manifest around 2015. Both Passover and Tabernacles will experience them (the blood moon eclipses). Blood moons are rare to begin with; a double blood moon is nearly non-existent. Having these blood moons fall on the Passover and Tabernacles as opposed to some other months (that year) would seem to have astronomical ramifications (pun intended) when one dials in the math of probabilities. There are a couple sites (if you are interested) that look into this, although I believe they mis-apply a couple of scriptures. Some verses may apply where the moon turns to blood (Joel 2:31//Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. Revelation 6:12: and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood . . . ). Sure sounds possible. An interesting study . . . Google “blood moon” and “Mark Biltz”

Mark Biltz, pastor of El Shaddai Ministries in Bonney Lake, Wash. is one person spearheading this. He’s on a couple of YouTubes. Again, I do not subscribe to everything he says, and he dials in a few scripture thinking they refer to eclipses when they don’t . . . . more probably volcanic activity and/or a meteor/comet strike causing the sun and moon not to give light along with what appears to be meteor showers (obviously, blood moons do not cause meteor showers). Regardless, and interesting investigation for those who have the time for such a thing.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2009 08:29 am

Well, I googled “Revelation 12 Virgo” and checked out a couple of the top picks. The reference to the constellation was bogus and totally arbitrary - just an asssumption. As for an eclipse, there was no specific prediction since eclipses have been occurring for billions of years so they indicate nothing in particular. The reference to the Feast of Trumpets however was quite significant. Most scholars agree that Christ was born on the feast of trumpets and that his return will be on the same day thus fulfilling it as promised. Now I have no doubt that the woman is giving birth to Jesus. Thanks for the tip.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/6/2009 06:43 am

. . . and no connection to female astronauts.

But if you are foolish enough to make mockery of such events without checking them out, then again, your true nature is once again exposed.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/5/2009 12:35 pm

Jimbo,

Better late than never.

You asked, “I’m still not sure whar astronomical event you are referring to. I have been an amateur astronomer for 55 years so I am familiar with everything going on up there. Are you referring to the alignment in 2012 - the starting point of the Mayan calendar, or perhaps an eclipse, transit or occultation? Or a strange combination of events? Fill me in.”

Google “Revelation 12 Virgo”

There are many inaccuracies as to the web-site’s conclusions, but the fact that such astronomical events are occurring is mind-boggling to me.

(No connection to 2012 . . . I think)

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/5/2009 12:31 pm

Jimbo,

Bye the bye, I most heartedly share your sarcasm against the Roman Catholic Church, her history, and her customs (Christmas, Easter, Valentines day, etc.)

There is a theory that some historic events are what can be called “partial prophetic fulfillment.” That is when such events track close to scripture prophetic predictions, but do not fulfill all of them . . . which are to be completely fulfilled at a later time. Much of our contention over our dialogue may be witness to that.

Regardless, I find about 95% of historic (Post Constantine era) and modern traditions, customs, and doctrines the result of compromise with the Pagan world.

I also greatly respect the 7th dayers for honoring a literal Sabbath.

Just some thoughts at no extra charge.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/5/2009 12:26 pm

Jimbo,

Thanks for the comeback. Sorry this response is so long.

First, if 1000 years is a day . . . why not apply this reasoning to what a “prophetic day” is. That is to say, shouldn’t your “prophetic day” equal a 1000 years, not 1 year? But that would result in an absurdity.

Like I said, the 3.5 “times”, the 42 months, the 1260 days are attributed to other end time events; events that cannot reasonably equate to 1260 years. Add to that the events of Rev are to unfold quickly and last a short space strongly rules out the 1260 year theory. (About 1/2 dozen passages in Rev establishing that fact . . . no time to look them up.)

I find it a bit dishonest that such facts and highlights are continually ignored. Must I again raise the reality of the 2 witnesses? The specific events and points of their prophetic profile clearly expose them as two prophets; not 2 nations, not 2 tribes, not a metaphor for Israel and/or the church. The ministry of the 2 witnesses is for 3.5 “times”, 42 months, 1260 days. This is the time period when all the prophecies are to be finished/completed as pointed out in the book of Daniel. The 3.5 “times” period is the finish line; a tick on the clock when the six days of fallen man (a day is as a thousand years) is replaced with the one day ruled by Jesus & his chosen (his 1000 year reign). That 3.5 year period is the Day of the Lord; not 1260 years. Hermenutics strongly favors (if not requires) the word “day” as the language God chose for this book to articulate this specific time period . . . . It’s not a prophetic day. It’s 1260 days which = 42 month which = 3.5 “times” which = the length of ministry of the 2 witnesses, the beginning of sorrows (birth pangs), the breaking of the seals, and the sounding of the trumps . . . . and another 3.5 years for the destruction of those left behind, the establishing of the mark of the beast, and a genocide on a scale this world has never witnessed.

But, alas, I apparently cannot consider applying 1260 days to other events which can only be rationally attributed to “days” (as opposed to “years”) because no one else does . . . . my evidence (which is none other than God’s expressed word) hase been ignored all throughout our dialogue.

As far as the “transformation of Israel into the church” theory . . . . I ain’t buying it. There was no 10 horned–7 headed beast standing in front of either Israel or the apostolic church before, during, or immediately after the birth of Jesus or during this alleged “transformation”. How many times will that fact be overlooked? I’ve only raised it in my postings a half dozen times . . . . with never a comment or a subtenant rebuttal. Here we go again . . . the 10 horns & the beast are destroyed by the lamb (Rev 17:14) after their attempt to war with the lamb. Being a student of history, I’d love some record of this so I can see things your way. But I have never come across any evidence to that effect. There is nothing in the history books where Jesus marched on an attacking army, destroying them. Then there is the denial of John’s revelation to us that Jesus birth was during the 6th head, not the 7th (Rev 17:10). So easy just to pretend such passages don’t exist, isn’t it?

I call it dishonest.

Look, Jimbo, I’d gladly change my mindset . . . but no one, to date, can account for just the few questions I keep raising (I’ve got dozens more discrepancies that are unaccounted for as well.) The most I get is some allegorized folk tales; all of which fall apart when the entire passage in which they are found are examined.

I need substance, not conjecture. My entire reason for these dialogs is to test my understanding. I purposely seek out such dialogues to shake my doctrines down; knowing that if they can withstand any challenge, then they carry a greater weight. I’m completely open to correcting my doctrine, but I’m not planning on exchanging them for such fabrications I’ve seen so far.

If what you brought me was the truth, then you could have easily answered all the questions I put before you. You answered almost none.

Allow me to shake ths “Israel transforming into the Christian church” idea. I would contend that Israel, as a nation, did not transform into the Christian church. Why do you think they were destroyed in 70 AD? It’s because, as a nation, they continued to reject their Messiah. Yes, it can be argued that some Jews were converted. Big deal . . . . so, too did multiple Gentiles, and millions more than the Jews. If I were to apply the same logic, I could teach that the Rev 12 woman did not start out as Israel, but rather, Pagan Rome. After all, more of them “transformed” (your words) than did the Jews . . . not to mention that more of their pagan traditions/customs morphed into Christian traditions/customs than that of the Jew’s.

Hey, I’m still waiting for you to address the questions I offered. I’ll consider only hard evidence. Show me the “mark of the beast” applied to the forehead and right hand of ALL peoples of the world and the resulting great slaughter of ALL the peoples of the world that refused this mark (occurring during this alleged 1260 YEARS). Surely, there should at least one historic record of such a awesome icon burned into their flesh. Or, show me the Jewish temple where “the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place” was built during that alleged 1260 YEARS (Matt 24:15, Mark 13:8). That will gain my attention. (But we know there was no Jewish temple, much less a Jewish nation during that alleged 1260 YEARS.) I wait for history (or you) to reveal to this discussion/dialogue an alleged time of great tribulation, where the sun was darkened, the moon gave no light, and the stars fell, and the powers that are in heaven were shaken . . . and the Son of man was seen coming in the clouds with great power and glory, climaxed by the greatest tribulation this world has or ever will experience . . . . during this alleged 1260 years.

It didn’t happen.

These are future events.

Jimbo, give me hard evidence.

Stop this “prophetic year” stuff. This concept of one day = one year is not a constant in scripture. It was used once in the book of Ezekiel, and then Ezekiel follow God’s instructions by performing the task in days not years, as described. I recommend we use what is more certain and solid. The “days” associated with the 2 witnesses firmly establishes what the spirit of God meant by “days” in the book of Rev. If God meant to apply 1 day = 1 year, He would have included that in the text of Rev as He did in the book of Ezekiel. He did not. He used the word “years” where He meant to use the word “years” as He did with the word “months” and “days.” And at the risk of being nauseating, I contend that the usage of 3.5 “times”, 42 months, 1260 days applies to the word “days.” These time expressions are assigned to multiple events (2 witnesses, mark of the beast) where the only sensible application means “days.”

And as far a looking for a specific corporate Christian body to fulfill the “remnant” church (eg: Catholics, or Methodists, or Luthrans, or Mormons, etc . . . .) there isn’t one. The chosen of God are those who pursue Him with all their heart. Paul did not belong to any denomination. None of the apostles did.

Please, Jimbo . . . . I’d appreciate it if you could simply address the questions so I can weigh them against what God has shown me. If you continue to avoid them, then I must conclude that you cannot. Then, in effect, you have answered my questions concerning the validity of your doctrine.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/5/2009 12:19 pm

Hello again,
Lately I’ve been contemplating your earlier statement:
I’ve also mentioned the literal “woman in the heavens” celestial event that only now has occurred in the history of recorded man. Certainly, a “wonders in the heavens” for those who understand Astronomy.
Using my background in astronomy I think I’ve finally figured out what you were talking about.
The woman is a real woman, actually standing on the moon. She is lit brightly by the sun as there is no atmosphere or clouds on the moon, the sun is about 5 times brighter than on earth. And the stars above her head are actual stars - only visible while the sun is out if you are on the moon. This fact is only now realized in modern times so the prophecy must be for our times. The number twelve may be used to represent all the stars in the sky, perhaps a reference to the 12 constellations of the zodiac - a common reference in John’s day.
So the prophesy is obvious - it is the first woman to set foot on the moon. So you are right - it has not yet happened but we now have the technology to fulfill it. Can’t be a coincidence!
In fact NASA is planning to send 4 people to the moon for a week in 2018. No doubt one will be a woman.
Wow! Your insight was absolutely brilliant. No need for symbolism here. Literal works perfectly.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/5/2009 03:26 am

Yo fozman,
First, let me give you a reference for the day=1000 years in prophecy. Here is 2Peter8:
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, [1] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies [2] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
If youve researched the prophecies of Daniel you know there are several that require this conversion in order to properly fulfill the prophecy.
In any case, the math is simple. The “times” come to 3.5 years or 42 months or 1260 days, therefore the prophetic time would be 1260 years. Admittedly, not every time frame in prophecy must be converted, but history has proven that some of them must be.
As for your following comment:
Here’s something for your math background . . . . how can the church of Jesus birth Jesus? Jesus was birthed 30 years before the first disciple was gathered.
This whole chapter describes the transformation of Judaism into christianity. The woman is the church which starts out as Judaism (the 12 stars are the 12 tribes of israel) and through the birth of Jesus the church becomes christian (the 12 stars also represent the 12 apostles).
The dragon represents the first beast of revelation - the Holy Roman Empire. The woman (the true church) must flee from the persecution of the pagan rome-infested church for the duration of the Empire - 1260 years. These prophetic time frames are mentioned in rev12 and 13 and it is no coincidence that they correspond with world history.
As for the true remnant church, who do you believe it is? Im sure the catholics believe it is them and every other christian believes it will be their denomination. But the catholic church is the whore of babylon and it and its harlot offspring will be destroyed at the second coming, so it can’t be them. The remnant will be what is left. Maybe it will be the Mormons.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/5/2009 03:03 am

Jimbo

1) “If so, who will the two beasts be assuming they are not here yet?”
Hopefully, the church will know them when they get here. Until then . . . it’s a future thing. Thus, we cannot know as of present . . . . obviously.

2). “how can the woman give birth to a nation in such a short time?”
This would be so less confusing for you if you’d resist putting words into my mouth. I never said a nation would be born in a day. I said the manchild are those Xians in the church that are the bride, who are sold out to Jesus, who are full of the Lord’s spirit. They are not the nominal-half-baked Xians that are only Xians on Sunday. I’ve made no mention of any kind of a “nation” in thesis. You are apparently assuming such things. It’s my belief and doctrine that sold out Xians will be raptured in Rev 12:5, at the last trump. . . oops, did I say that? (Rev 12 is the last trump?)

3 ) Your 7th Daist background was obvious from the start. And I ain’t buying your psycho-babble analysis of my thesis. My model tracks 100 %. Psycho-babble is neither factual, argumentative, nor disproves or corrects anything I points I have made. (I was hoping to test my thesis against some facts . . . . none given me yet.) My thesis is the only model comes close to resolving ALL the prophetic points of the prophetic profile of end time events. The 7th Daist stand (as I read from the Rev 12 study at www.amazingfacts.org) steps on itself at every point, eventually attempting to prove that they are “His end-time remnant church.”

For example, the author first says that the Rev 12 woman is Christ’s Church. I quote: “In Revelation 12:1, Jesus symbolizes His church as a woman “clothed with the sun . . . ” Then he says Jesus is the manchild. I quote: “Next, the prophecy states that the woman is in labor, about to deliver a baby . . . The baby was Jesus.”

Here’s something for your math background . . . . how can the church of Jesus birth Jesus? Jesus was birthed 30 years before the first disciple was gathered.

Here’s more illogical discrepancies:

The author states that Satan took 1/3rd of the angels out of heaven. The bible does not. The bible says it was a corprate government described as a 7 headed red dragon with 10 horns; the 10 crowns being crowned. Rev 17 specifically identifies the 7 headed red dragon and the 10 horns as a government run by 10 leaders. That is to say, the 7 headed red dragon with 10 crowned horns is a government run by man, albeit inspired and probably possessed by Satan. Whatever that image equates to, it is that corporate body that takes out the “stars of heaven,” not Satan. Read the text.

Now, my math background (which is probably more extensive than yours) cannot calculate a man-administered government (albeit, Satan-based) existing before time, much less able to pluck angels out of heaven and cast them to earth . . . . and cast them to a non-existent earth since (most theologians assume) the event of falling of angelic-beings occurred eons in history past, long before the earth was created. I state again, Rev 17 identifies the 10 horns as men, and the 7th head as a king/government. And these same 10 horns align with the AntiX (in Rev 17) to war against the Lamb (Jesus) only to be overcome by the lamb (destroyed by Jesus). When did that occur in history? It didn’t. It is a future event, as are said 10 horns. (Me thinks they will war with the Lamb and be destroyed by the Lamb sometime around the time of Armeggeddon.)

Continuing:

This author at www.amazingfacts.org pedals a “prophetic day” basing it on a manipulation of Ezek 4:6. He literally turns 42 months//1260 days into 1260 YEARS. How does anyone get 3.5 (time, times ½ times) time periods out of 1260 YEARS? Is that 3.5 millennium, 3.5 decades, 3.5 full moons? These same time periods are assigned the 2 witnesses. Did they prophecy for 1260 YEARS and their bodies lie dead in the street 3 YEARS? What, did they live for 1260 YEARS? (Just what kind of math did you practice in your background?)

That author’s efforts are nothing short of hermeneutic malpractice.

Finally, you seem to indicate that the book of Rev is moot. Not if you got it wrong in your interpretation as to who the 1/3rd of the “stars of heaven” are (Note: This is the exact phraseology God uses to identify the righteous offspring of Abraham . . . . “stars of heaven” . . . . and does so, like a about a dozen times.) Thus, Rev 12 takes on an entirely different meaning, and all our collective derrieres are on the chopping block with a half baked church missing the rapture. Not so moot anymore, is it?

My thesis states that Rev 12 is the last trump. The catching up of the manchild in Rev 12:5 is the rapture. The manchild are the sold out Xians in the womb of the church who come out of her (the woman) when all hell starts to break out in this world. They will rule with a rod of iron with Jesus as describe in Rev 2:27. Hopefully, you will be counted among the manchild.

My Rev 12 thesis matches everything expressed and revealed by Jesus and the apostles. It lines up the “beginning of birth pangs//sorrows” Jesus speaks of. It matches the AntiX blaspheming God in the new temple. It addresses the great falling away Paul writes of. It matches Old Testament prophecy.
It resolves ALL the points of the prophetic profiles articulated in the book of Rev.

I think you’re struggling to follow this because your paradigm is set and it refuses to be challenged or even questioned. There may be that allegiance thing to your religious alma-mater getting in the way as well. That’s a tough one to overcome.

If your are interested, I’ve posted much of my thesis in a PowerPoint study on YouTube at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nvwM1GDErg

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE_QlOoi284

You may want to browse it and see how your math background does with it.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/4/2009 08:59 am

Scott,
I may be confusing your blog with another on this page and I’ve been moving and offline for more than a week.
As for the two beasts of rev 13 &14, I was asking who you think they will be. Are the 7 heads and crowns and ten horns in rev 12:3 related to the same description in rev 14:1? What do they represent and how soon might we expect to see these future beasts?

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/4/2009 06:03 am

“Call me crazy but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.”

Jimbo,

(I’m assuming your post #156 is intended for me).

I wouldn’t call you crazy but I’m not so sure your are listening. Yes, Revelation 13 and later is all still future and I have no idea why you’ve referenced the two “beasts”.

And what are you talking about when you make reference to a “nation born in such a short time”? And how is it that you have concluded that I “make assumptions based on preconceived notions”? I’m thinking that perhaps YOU are the one making assumptions based on YOUR preconceived notions of what you THINK I believe.

You want logic but your response seems a bit illogic.
But this next statement of yours about “early rapturists” is classically (dare I say), ill-informed:

“..then the book of revelation was not written for us Christians since we will all be gone before it comes down, so it doesn’t really matter if we know what the mark of the beast will be - we won’t be here to choose.”

Your “if-then” analysis is glaringly inaccurate, incomplete and .., illogical. And yes, prophecy DOES have to be logical. It is only illogical when we interpret it incorrectly and we can only know that we’ve interpreted it correctly if it is logically consistent with the rest of scripture.

Once again, get back to the basics of prophetic exegesis if you know what they are. If you don’t know, then find out and begin to apply them before trying to interpret Revelation any further.., and stick to it!

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/4/2009 03:55 am

Well if Rev 12 is future prophecy then so must Rev 13 and later.If so who will the two beasts be assuming they are not here yet?
And if none of Ch 12 has happened yet, how can the woman give birth to a nation in such a short time? Your argument, while it may be correlated to prophetic verses is simply not logical. You try to take it all literally but it is simply not possible so you make assumptions based on your preconceived notions. From a strictly biblical standpoint it seems to hold water but when you look at history and current events and extrapolate into the future the odds of it occurring as you suggest are infinitesimal. I come from a science and math (and logic) background which is why I tend to skew my interpretation towards what is most likely to happen given the current world situation. I am also seventh day Adventist which also skews my beliefs away from the norm of today. But remember, the norm of today was the pagan of Christ’s time.
And as for not mattering if we know the truth, I assume you are an early rapturist as most Christians, even 7th dayers are, then the book of revelation was not written for us Christians since we will all be gone before it comes down, so it doesn’t really matter if we know what the mark of the beast will be - we won’t be here to choose. This fact makes all discussion of prophesy moot as it will only apply to Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists.
Once again, this is not logical. Yes I know, prophesy does not have to be logical to be the word of God. But I believe that God is quite logical, in his own way and by understanding His logic we can better understand his prophecy.
Call me crazy but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 12/4/2009 02:50 am

Jimbo,

“I don’t think it’s important that we know it anyway..,”

Probably the first rule of prophetic interpretation is to realize that there is no such thing as an unimportant prophecy. And I cannot think of a prophecy more underserving of your assessment than Revelation 12. Your statement in this regard suggests a very cavalier approach to the text. I note that you make reference to the “concensus of popular interpretations” but you do not consider whether said interpretations are even valid. Surely you must know that the only time the popular consensus is ever close to being accurate is AFTER a prophecy has been fulfilled.., not BEFORE. Ninety-five percent of Revelation is still future- chapter 12 is ALL future- so I strongly suggest you jetison the “popular” interpretations and get back to the basics of prophetic exegesis. That is, if you even know where to begin!

Concerning chapter 12, it is SO important that it holds the very key to unlocking the end time events; their order and timing. In prophecy, you could not ask for more than this.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/22/2009 04:43 am

I’m still not sure whar astronomical event you are referring to. I have been an amateur astronomer for 55 years so I am familiar with everything going on up there. Are you referring to the alignment in 2012 - the starting point of the Mayan calendar, or perhaps an eclipse, transit or occultation? Or a strange combination of events? Fill me in.
As for the woman, I have googled the consensus and there are actually three popular interpretations. All with some degree of validity so we will simply have to agree to disagree on that point at least until the second coming. I don’t think it’s important that we know it anyway, what we really need to know is the mark of the beast. That will affect our eternal life if we make it to the tribulation. Unless of course you are a believer of the early (secret) rapture in which case we will never know the beast.
Anyway, let me know about the astronomical event and I’ll give you my opinion on it.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2009 14:33 pm

What are you talking about?

I said saintS . . . . not saint. Yes, the manchild (singlular) represents a group of people, just as the woman (singular) represents a group of people (the church) . . . which I noticed you did not hesitate to apply (to the woman).

The applications of the “A wonder in the heavens” I mentioned is a procession of constellations, not an astronaut. Since God often uses cosmic events to mark His events, it fits quite nicely . . . especially when considering the frequency said event . . . which never happened before in the history of recorded man.

The 3rd of the stars are cast down by the 7th head, they don’t follow the 7th head, and the event is when the 10 horns and the woman are on the scene . . . which I might add, neither the woman, 10 horns, or 7th head existed at the alleged falling down of angels some time back in the time before creation. And we are seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus Eph 2:6 . . . the metaphor fits . . . just as the woman is seen in the heavens (Does that mean the woman/church is first in heaven before she is persecuted on earth? . . . Your words)

There are 15 bible passages equating or typeing stars to believers; only 1 to angels. My thesis matches perfectly with Paul’s prophecy of the great falling away. That is how bible doctrine is authenticated . . . allowing the Bible to interpret the Bible.

Next, who says ’s only one (1) 3.5 year period being referred to? And if 3.5 yeasr = 1260 years then the two olive branches prophecy for 1260 YEARS. The ministry they perform,and their 3 days lieing dead in the streets kind of defines that 3.5 years = 3.5 years, and 3 days means 3 days. Typing and morphing these days into a millennium is quite irresponsible.

S0, remove the 1260 years, and interpret the times EXACTLY as John wrote them, then we don’t have too long to wait for things to unfold. 3.5 years not, 1260 years. Rev 1:1 The things of this prophecy must occur “rapidly” (1260 years is not too rapid)

So far, you have grievously misrepresented what I said and really haven’t faced the prophetic points I raised . . . . other than through what appears to be a spirit of belittlement. I’ve had 6th graders understand my thesis. I wonder if it has anything to do with their state of spirit. To say the least, I’m quite concerned about yours. You’re welcome to dial in a Christ-like spirit at any time.

If not, have a nice life and don’t waste your time dialoguing with me.

By fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/21/2009 13:22 pm

Well I don’t even know where to start here - you are all over the map making mountains out of mole hills. Do I understand that you believe that the woman in heavens is like Sally Ride or another woman astronaut? That’s what John takes from seeing our space program? Not the moon landing? Come on, lets get down to earth here.
And you think that the man child (singular - a saint maybe, but not all the saints of the church) represents the rapture? That’s a new one for the early rapture theory. You guys will pull out any verse from anywhere if it can be twisted to make it look like it is rapture related. The rapture is clearly described - when Christ returns in glory at the 7th trump. No sooner. We all wish it were true but alas it is not.
And the third of the stars that fall from heaven are clearly the followers of Satan - the fallen angels mentioned by name in rev 12-9. They are not backsliding believers or else they would not be in heaven. You conveniently left out that word in your description.
And don’t forget that in prophecy a day equals a year so 42 months = 1260 days or 1260 years, not 3-1/2 years. So it can’t refer to the tribulation.
And Mary lived in the Roman empire - the fourth kingdom of Daniel. John starts at kingdom 5 - the Holy Roman empire which replaced the roman empire and which lasted guess what? - 1260 years! There’s your prophetic proof (among 13 others) of the first beast of revelation. (So that one HAS happened.)
The 6th kindom or the second beast came up from the previous one - it was what was left after the Holy Roman empire was dealt a fatal blow in 1898 by Napoleon - the last Holy Roman emperor. So what was left? Only the church, all by itself. And the wound was healed in 1929 when the Vatican gained nation status and autonomy by Mussolini. Clearly, Mary did not live during this kingdom (beast).
Rev 12 occurs BEFORE the first beast, chapter-wise, and concurrently in actuality. The woman (true church) went into hiding during the Holy roman empire - again, for 3-1/2 prophetic years or 1260 actual years.
If the events of ch. 12 have not yet happened then we have a very long wait until Christ returns.
I’m sorry but you can’t reject prophetic years in order to make it fit your end-time theory.
I’m afraid that your interpretation is so complicated and convoluted that you will be waiting forever for your events to come to pass. In fact, I can’t think of any fulfilled prophecy that was as complex as what you’ve described. I am forced to believe the correct interpretation will in the end be very simple. Only time will tell of course. In the end we will all discover the truth.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/19/2009 11:53 am

Saints are also to rule with a rod of iron (with Jesus.) and saints will be caught up to God . . . . it’s called the Rapture by some. I already posted multiple blogs detailing why Jesus is not the Manchild of Rev 12. They are easily reviewed. Could be some good info there for you.
Look, all points in the prophetic profile must be fulfilled by Jesus for him to be the Manchild of Rev 12. As per my postings, he fulfills none of them. Rev 17:12 says the 10 crowned-horns (seen before the woman in Rev 12:3) are 10 world rulers that will rule with the antiX for one hour. (That hasn’t happened yet.) They will also attempt to make war with the Lamb (Rev 17:14) - - (That hasn’t happened yet.). And then the lamb will overcome the 10 crowned-horns (Rev 17:14) - - (That hasn’t happened yet. ). In addition, the harlot that rides the beast rules over ALL the earth (Rev 17:18) - - (That hasn’t happened yet. Rome did not rule over ALL the earth.). The 7th head of the dragon (which will also be the 8th), has to represent a future world government from the Roman government John (who penned the book) & Jesus & Mary lived under during the 6th head of the dragon (Rev 17:10) - - (Thus, the 7th hasn’t happened yet.). This would also harmonize with the Nebuchadnezzar’s image that differentiates the iron legs to that of the feet of iron & clay.
I’ve also mentioned the literal “woman in the heavens” celestial event that only now has occurred in the history of recorded man. Certainly, a “wonders in the heavens” for those who understand Astronomy.
I could continue if you need more points compared in prophetic profile.
The only explanation that resolves and completes All the points in the prophetic profile is defined when the saints are the Manchild during the end-of-days events.
The saints will rule and reign with a rod of iron (Rev 2:27) - - (That will happened.) The saints will be caught up to God just as described to the Manchild (1 Thes 4:17) - - (That will happened.) Many believers will backslide before the 2nd coming of Yeshua-Messiah (2 Thes 2:3) - - (That will happened.) This is the 1/3rd of the stars falling (Rev 12:4). The church is often typed as a woman (many scriptures). The 3.5 years of persecution the woman is subjected to is only defined in the Book of Rev, and is and end-time even defined only for the time of the AntiX.
Again, I could continue if you need more points compared in prophetic profile.
This is certain: all points in prophetic profile must be resolved for an accurate discernment of what this fulfillment will be. Jesus, Mary resolve none of them. The “sold out saints” who compromise not to the end do fulfill all the points.

By fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/19/2009 08:25 am

“It seems that this chapter is very controversial but let me take a crack at it.”

Me thinks your crack is full of holes.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/18/2009 13:27 pm

It seems that this chapter is very controversial but let me take a crack at it.
The woman starts out as a real woman giving birth to Jesus Christ. We know it is Him because he will rule all nations with an iron rod and ascended into heaven to his throne. When that happens, Satan and his fallen angels are finally cast out of heaven forever and are now stuck unhappily here on earth. (Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and the sea!) Now that the devil is cast down he persecutes the woman who now represents people - either Israel or a church. Now here is the clincher - the great red dragon has 7 heads and ten horns with 7 crowns upon his head. This is the exact same description of the first beast in chapter 13. This beast represents the Holy Roman Empire. One reason we know this is the “power given to him to continue 42 months. This comes to 1260 prophetic years (1 day = 1 year} the exact duration of the Holy Roman Empire (538-1898). During this time the church takes on pagan roman practices and beliefs (I’ve read over 50 of them) and becomes a blasphemous church. It also persecutes many people who don’t go along with church doctrine (the inquisition etc.)
But there are small groups - remnants from the true apostolic churches who manage to hide out and keep the faith and avoid the wrath of the roman church (Wrath of Satan). So here is the connection: the woman is now these remnant churches. How can we be sure? Look at the time frame for her “fly into the wilderness” -
rev12-14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Guess what - this time frame = 1+2+1/2 (3-1/2) years and once again in prophetic years it comes to 1260 years - exactly the same as the first beast.
Now, just so we know that she does not represent Israel or its people we have verse 17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So her seed have the testimony of Jesus, so they are not Jews but Christians. And they keep the commandments of God unlike the roman church who deleted the second commandment and changed the fourth from Saturday to Sunday (the pagan roman’s day to worship the sun god.)
I believe this small remnant of true apostolic worship will be the bride of Christ when he returns. The whore of Babylon (the RC Church) and her harlot offspring (SUNday worshipping Protestant churches) will be “fallen” and the final church will be like the church at Philadelphia, praised by Jesus in Rev chapter 3.
So I guess we will have to get used to going to church on Saturday, and oh yeah - Christmas (Saturnalia - Saturn was a roman god)) will have to go as will Easter (Ishtar - dates back to Babylon), Valentines day (Cupid was a roman god) etc, etc.
Oh well, enjoy it while it lasts folks.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/18/2009 12:36 pm

Tammy, I have never read nor heard anything like that. If there is even a smudge of truth about that I would assume that it is a suspicious version, because it doesn’t make any sense. What makes more sense is that someone is validating themselves and giving themself permission to do something inappropriate. Even if that isn’t the case, do beware of those out there that twist the word of God and mislead many. I don’t know you or your situation, but I honestly became worried for you. Just try to be careful.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/1/2009 14:39 pm

Tammy, I’m a Bible college grad and I don’t recall anything like that. But then again, you learn something everyday.

By Jason Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2009 16:48 pm

Is there a verse in the Bible that says “a man should take a woman half his age then add 7 years”

By tammy (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2009 15:07 pm

John, it says she flees into the wilderness. Secondly, it does not mention which wilderness. Only that she fled there for protection from a heinous beast.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/19/2009 16:50 pm

John,
That might be a little difficult to identify such a mountain since the event of the clothed woman fleeing has not occurred yet. The event is a prophetic that will occur at the last trump (the 7th trump) when the world is subjected to the 7th world government, governed by 10 kings who will rule with AntiX for one hour. These 10 kings will make war with our Messiah (see Rev 17) and be defeated at his appearing. None of that has occurred yet; meaning none of the 7 seals of 7 trumps have been made manifest in history, to date.
And that being said, the “fleeing into the wilderness” may be more of a metaphor than a literal fulfillment of people running around a desert or mountain; especially if the woman represents the remnant church world-wide.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/19/2009 08:17 am

could you name the mountain and or mountain pass the sun clothed woman fled to. I believe it was so constructed to allow only so many persons enterance at one time. Thanks

By john eberwein (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/17/2009 01:58 am

You are doing ok so far. I might pipe in from time to time.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 17:54 pm

After reading most of these post’s, I think I have the general idea’s here. Scott believes it has something to do with the rapture and the church, ect. Fozman is determining his views (hope I am getting this right this time)also with the rapture, but more in a timeline sense. Like where which trumpet fits where in accordance to the rapture. I noticed many references about the snatching up of the baby.

My concern with the rapture in this particular chapter is that, as Christina pointed out, the baby has grown into a child. The word “child” is accented. Not to mention that he is to rule on earth.

So if God snatched him, he put him back. Placing this as the rapture doesn’t quit fit with many getting caught in the clouds to be with God forever after. This why I cannot readily link this to the timeline Foz has created. Or that it has anything to do with the rapture of the church.

Scott, I did understand the difference you presented between metaphoric and symbolic. Good parameters there.

Come on, Christina. We know you want to come out and play. You’re usually more fun than this.

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 17:41 pm

Mike,

I believe we have something to work with!

Your statement: “This is one of the most baffling puzzles of all time” is probably right on the mark. The mystery of this woman, (or “secrecy” as you put it) is most profound as are the reasons for it being so. If the Church got hold of this today it would revolutionize everything. But it’s time is not yet.

Prophecy must be rightly interpreted AND rightly timed. If either one is in error, the entire prophecy will be rendered inaccurate. This should not be surprising to anyone but it gets abused all the time.

Start with my post #5. It concerns a few of the rules of interpetation. When the rules are rightly applied, the veil begins to recede rather easily. When the rules are ignored, the veil becomes darker and heavier than intended. Spend some time on that post and see if you can understand it. If you have some questions about it, let me know and I’ll work with you. But this is the starting point. Rules are objective and unchanging. The Spirit is subjective and can be easily misread. To accuratley interpret prophecy, both the objective AND subjective must be satisfied. Lay down everything you know until you understand more of these rules and in no time, the day will begin to dawn.

I’m leaving now to go attend the funeral of a dear brother in Christ.

Shalom

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 16:21 pm

Scott,
Obviously I have missed something. I will go back and reread. I’ve got heart. Just try to be patient. I am still open minded. I’m just trying to call it like I see it so far.. I have very few conclusions. Just suspects in my outline. Hey you can’t blame me. This is one of the most baffling puzzles of all time. Despite my eventual decisions, they even must be proven or disproven with time.
My love for God is more than trying to figure out this wonderful mystery. Even if I never figure this out, I always have Him. I am investing effort out of sheer curiousity. I will not invest my eternal soul on a cold case in a way that maddens me. I would hope this journey brings me closer to God.
If I feel I am crossing that line, I will excuse myself.

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 15:40 pm

Mike,

You may have 3 very honest problems, but your problems do not lie with my position; rather they lie with your sloth. You don’t know my position because you have not examined it. The nature of your questions prove so. If this sounds arrogant to you, I apologize; it is not intended to be. However, I’m not going to run around in circles with anyone who’s just playing around with matters so important. If you just want someone to tickle your ears, you won’t have any trouble finding them. They will find you. It takes no work at all.

If you are not playing, then prove it.., do the homework.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 13:57 pm

Scott,

Silly, I Know, but I have 3 very honest problems with your position with this being the church and overcomers. First, it is no state secret that Gods children overcome and live on. If your idea was true it would not make sense for God to raise Revelation 12 to such top secret status. Something else is going on here. Second, believers and nonbelievers have been overcome and have overcame since the beginning. Nothing changes there either. Lastly, believers resemble more of an endangered species than they do people that give birth.

Fozman, Yes i remember running across that mother goddess explanation. Not sure on my thoughts there so i will pause on that for now. Will get back on that one. Why do I think it could represent the Jews and not the 12 apostle? The apostles died. They do not exist here anymore. And because everything that happens in the war is centered around the Jews. Oh and I did google “woman in travail”. I found a lot of references in the old and new testament. Check out Micah chapter 5. If you still don’t think rev 12 isn’t about the Jewish people then tear it up and get back with me.

This site is so awesome!

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 13:21 pm

Sorry Mike,

It occurs to me from your reply that you are not willing to do the work. This is typical of someone who pursues these matters with their head only and not their heart also. You won’t learn these things from an “outline”. They will take months and years of study. My earlier posts, if you care to examine them, are as succinct as anything can be about prophetic interpretation and 12:1 and 12:5 in particular. The questions in your post #133 border on being silly. You have evidently already drawn some erroneous conclusions and now, based upon them, are speculating erroneously on other matters as well. You are laying a poor foundation.

Perhaps I’m wrong about you. I hope so. But now you have jumped into the fray and are about to be introduced to the “last trump” and how will you navigate?

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 11:58 am

Mike,

What makes you think that the crown on the woman of Rev 12 represents Abraham, Sarah, and their descendants? I’ve seen this “thinking” on some web-sites. Unfortunately, I could not find the reasoning, scripture, or data that would substantiate the thought. For all we know, the 12 stars could represent the 12 apostles. I personally think it is used by God to identify this woman as a type of Ishtar. The data/history supports the idea this — this figure was common in the temples that surrounded the apostle John during his day. God compared Israel to Ishtar at the height of their perversion when they chased after this same “mother-goddess.” The label was that of the great prostitute. It could be that history is repeating itself whereas the church is now perverted to the point that God compares her to the same image. And today’s church is.

I believe I laid out a rather clear and systematic explanation of these icons and figures; founded upon scripture and historic data. I cannot think of any other process that would produce a more accurate discerning. You are welcome to examine what I put down; that is, if you can navigate around the “iron sharpening iron” elements. I encourage you to put my work through the biggest meat grinder you can find. I always encourage people to test what I present; the main reason so that any discrepancies I may have missed might be brought to light. I also inevitably get other tidbits and ideas to grind myself – often finding info I never had before.

Sad to say, the controversies that often manifest in these forums do offend people. This is to be expected since most of us have invested our faith, efforts, and allegiance to our positions. Any challenge naturally tweaks our sensibility. But as I see it, Jesus offended many with what he said. That is to say, “offense” is something that will never be avoided.

I’m just looking for someone to work over my ideas and expose any compromises.

Have at it.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 07:24 am

Christina,

Your free speech was never impeded by anyone, nor mocked. . . . and it still isn’t.

On the other hand, your ideas & convictions are subject to question on this blog, as are mine. That is the purpose of these blogs . . . . to dialogue, to test others convictions/ideas, to debate, to agree, to disagree.

I would love to agree with you about this alleged prophet, however, grant me the right to test this individual for authenticity. That is a responsibility the Lord commands (not suggests) on all “students of scripture.” Need I quote the many passages?

And my job would be easier if I could even find a hint that the person even exists. Yet, I have tried three times on Google with no results . . . . and you have not provided me with any evidence even with the many weeks since we started this dialogue. In addition, the systematic reasoning I used to substantiate my position was once again ignored.

If I be guilty of being a fool, it is because I ran after similar imaginations for years; never investigating and never questioning. I paid a great price on many levels in many ways as the result of this foolishness. I’d hope you’d learn from my mistakes and avoid the same outcome.

However, if you heaven bound to embrace such fabrications without even looking, be it far from me to get in your way. Unfortunately, failure to approach this carefully will guarantee you a long and painful learning curve, possibly worse than mine.

Please don’t wait for God to have to send you another “fool” or jerk to attempt to get your attention.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 06:41 am

The reason I ask is because it was difficult to continue reading at the hours I can do so. A brief summary would help a lot more. We agree she is not Mary. But why is she the church or the manchild for that matter? It just feels a little far fetched right now. Obviously God is calling for the church to be ready, but he was so specific about the different kinds of people. Even the church divisions. Doesn’t it bother you at all that “the church” is giving birth? The reason I say this is because even the church will be under the authority of satan for a time (WWIII). And it looks to me that God wills it so. So how could the church give birth to anything when God is the hand that rocks the cradle and when it is either raptured or under the gun? and what does the church give birh to?

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 03:52 am

Mike,
I am more than willing, I’ve already done so. If you REALLY want to know, read my postings from #3 to #34. There is nothing in your “basic conclusions” that is not addressed there. Then, if you have a question, I’d be delighted to engage it.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 03:29 am

So your emphasis is that she is the church. Ok I am good with that. I am not exactly a novice, but I am open minded on this subject. Scott, I commend you for your efforts in assisting me with my search. I believe it was fozman who asked (something like this) which church? There are seven. The true church? Maybe, but then how do you explain the crown that represents Abraham Sarah and their descendants?

As far as my conclusion, I don’t have one. Only ideas I am investigating. However, I grew up with a detective as a father and some investivative training rubbed off. I could be wrong about my basic conclusions. That is ok. I want to be proven wrong so if you would be so kind as to remind me why she is the church I would love to reevaluate that. Are you as willing?

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 03:03 am

Mike,

It seems to me you are too quick to discount the possibility of the woman being the church. There has been MUCH written in this thread from the first post onward to strongly argue that it is. Furthermore, you have presented no basis for drawing your conclusion.

I’m not trying to discourage you but this is the thing about prophecy that can be very upsetting: There’s a tendency for the unlearned student to think prophecy cannot be known until it is fulfilled so it gives license to anyone who has an opinion to think their notions are just as valid as someone elses. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are RULES for interpreting prophecy. Not some willy-nilly subjective feelings that someone just happened to make up; but rather, rules that are established according to the very word of God himself. The novice generally doesn’t quite understand this, but the seasoned disciple understands it perfectly.

My advice is to learn the rules, ask a lot of questions and don’t talk about what you THINK; rather, talk about what you KNOW. In otherwords, study until you believe God himself bears witness to what you know. As a general guideline, if you find yourself forming convictions a little too quickly or too easily, or based on someone elses ideas, you probably haven’t heard from God and your convictions are premature. Tuck it away in your back pocket and be patient. If your interpretation is correct, it will become evident in time. If it’s not, that too will become evident.

If you truly have a HEART for these things, I commend you and encourage you to press on because it is God’s desire to make his prophetic word known for it’s time. In fact, if you don’t press on you will be disobeying the prompting of God and many will suffer. But if you only have a HEAD for these things, I suggest you lay it all down right now because Satan will soon get your eyes off of Jesus and great pride can enter your heart and it’s very hard to escape.

Which one are you? I have no desire to debate these matters with someone who only has a Head for them. But if you DO have a heart for the prophetic word you will see amazing things and God will use you to bless and prepare the Body for the grim days ahead.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 02:02 am

and ladies…

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 22:24 pm

Well I am not sure on my view yet. I am still reading all of these comments posted on this site, but there are some things I can safely say about this chapter that gives me parameters.

1. It is futuristic only
2. We will understand during the unfolding of the said event
3. The figure here is righteous
4. It will affect the course of WWIII
5. It was important enough for God to veil in secrecy.

The only thing I can say for sure at this point about this chapter is that its very intriging. It opens with what appears to be a visible cosmic sign and mystery that calls for the beginning of the events to occur. Also, that the crown on her head refers to the Jews.

That being said it right away hint to the church not being an option for her identity. Just the Jews and how they affect the church in the long run. It also seems to discount the Mother Mary figure. She has no husband that we know of. She is persecuted. And she is not alive in the last days.

The only other options I saw here on this site and others were as follows:

1. Israel
2. Just a constellation in the sky marking the times
3. A real woman martyr
4. All or none of the above

Since the earlier debates, do any of you disagree with this. Seeing all the ferver from this site tells me this should be interesting to say the least. Fire away, Gentlemen.

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 22:18 pm

“Do any of you feel that you have a sharper view after the combat?”

Absolutely. Always. Combat has a unique way of revealing the truth or error of a postion as nothing else can. But the combat must be against falsehood and error, and not against the Spirit and Truth. That said, it always behooves us to remember that Truth does not belong to us. However, we are bearers of Truth and the things which are revealed, we should cling to and zealously defend. Those who cling to error and foolishness should expect to be scrupulously judged.

The downside of forums like this one is that the Spirit cannot easily be tested and confirmed. I personally believe some people too easily take offense by a particular post. Not because offense was intended, but rather, as a result of the offended indivduals’ own insecurity playing on their emotions. Granted, many DO intend offense; but even then the individual who is secure in Christ will not be easily shaken. If they are, perhaps they’re putting a little too much confidence in the flesh.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 20:28 pm

Well said. I agree. I must ask. Do any of you feel that you have a sharper view after the combat?

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 18:09 pm

Well, you’ll agree with me in the rapture. “Love’s lips do not always drop honey.” C.H. Spurgeon

By Jay (wrote 5 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 01:18 am

“Just be nice.”

What a “nice” sounding sentiment. But unless a few sparks fly, iron remains dull!

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/18/2009 23:42 pm

Wow is right! All should remember that when it concerns prophecy interpretation, it should be by suggestion only. Until all is revealed, no one and no theory or suggestion should be disregarded. Christina has a point. I am new to this site. All of you have good thoughts on was these “signs” mean. Just be nice.

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/18/2009 18:07 pm

WoW, and I got booted!

By Jay (wrote 5 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/18/2009 09:59 am

For anyone out there still reading this…Suggesting that this woman is real does not mean false prophesying. It is a possibility. Why does she have to be a conartist if she is real? She clearly wouldn’t be.

If she could see events b4 they happen it would prove she has a strong connection with God and should have the holy spirit according to the bible. You know a good tree by its fruit, and according to this chapter, she is not a conartist or a false Christ.Just bc there is no mention of the father of the baby doesnt mean there wasn’t one. It just means he isn’t worth mentioning. Like I said, single mothers are common now a days. She would be a single mom if her son is born a manchild. The father could have died already knowing her luck.

My suggestion that this chapter is regarding a person we will possibly see with our own eyes is I believe a very intelligent possibility.

People like the ones who posted on this website were very rude. Had anyone asked me for proof politely I could have provided a wealth of it. But “don’t give pearls to swine lest they trample you with their feet.”

The information regarding the truth on this chapter would not be found on the internet. It would not be found anywhere because God has willed it a closed issue right now. That is why it would be better to investigate properly (not the internet)because we should be trying to look for the one thing we haven’t considered yet. Its the only possibility that hasn’t been given the proper attention in accordance with a chapter that is “key” to understanding the rest.

Many already believe we are in the last days. I am one of them. In the end, regardless of my theories or ideas proving correct or incorrect does not excuse the behavior of these vicious hypocrites. I am not leading anyone. If they are, their congregation should read their postings so they can see for themselves their ridiculous behavior. There is no excuse for it.

I have a right to my ideas and freedom of speech. No one has to take abuse for that. And as far as what God thinks about all of this.. that’s his business..not your responsibility.

Making a mockery of all the time people invested in studying prophecy is inevitable bc you do not KNOW the truth. It is worst to make a mockery of God’s word and preach it every Sunday like you really know what you are talking about.

God might have been the one who showed me all the things I tried to tell you, but you never know.. You might look at the news one day and see I was right. Wouldn’t you look like a jerk? Oh wait! You already do. Until then..bite me.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/18/2009 06:31 am

Christina,

In response to your previous and I assume your final posting . . . .

Let it be known that a woman (you called Bethula) “claiming” to know her children before they are born does not a prophetess make. It more often makes for a deceiver/con-artist looking for followers.

In addition, follower of said woman, “claiming” to be student of scripture, who advertises a woman “claiming” to be a prophetess (who has nothing of report verifying, proving, or demonstrating a prophetic anointing) does not a student of scripture make. It only makes said student of scripture an accomplice to a false prophetess.

I’m even more saddening when words meant to help are diminished or dismissed. My presentation of the Apostle John’s words in Rev 17 (that the 10 horns are leaders and 7 heads and end-time world government) was clearly ignored. More so, it was misdirected, either by purpose or by indolence. Rev 17 is John’s specific diffusing of who the figures/characters are of the 7 seals and 7 trumps, especially those figures found in Rev 12. By stating that Satan was the dragon of Rev 17 and neglecting any attempt to examine what John did say, you have affectively made the word of God of non-effect, at least in your mind. How you gamble your faith is one thing, but I’m responsible for anyone who reads this; and I say people must be more careful, diligent, and reverent of God’s word . . . . even at the risk of being long winded.

I’ve always found such interpretation methods most grievous. It’s dishonest and disrespects the time and effort God has people invest into His word. It also detracts from the purpose of this web-site, which is to examine and weigh what God’s word reveals . . . . not what some Jerusalem news paper printed back in the late 1990’s.

And for what it is worth, I still cannot find anything in the Internet about this alleged prophetess. Worst yet, the anemic information presented to advertise said prophetess is completely absent of this person even acknowledging Jesus in any sense.

Truly and correctly has Jesus prophesied that many would come as ministers (people coming in his name), proclaiming Jesus as Messiah, who were actually bringing deception. He also said in the same breath that many false prophets/prophetess shall rise, and shall deceive many. This alleged prophetess so matches what Jesus gave his life to defend against.
As for me and my house, I’d think twice about exalting this phantom or con-artiest to prophetess status. I would first find a bit more proof that this person exists, and if so, I would then look for something of greater substance proving she has a prophetic office. Failure to do so leaves people vulnerable to the aforementioned deception Jesus spoke of.
But then again, it’s your eternity you’re gambling with; unless of course you’re peddling this to other people. I’ve got ocean-beach property in Arizona to sell all of you if this is the standard people use to test the spirit.

By the way . . . . who’s the father of her alleged manchild and her alleged remnant? . . . . . Just a crazy question that needs to be asked in the light of such insanity.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/13/2009 06:35 am

Everybody, I just wanted to say that it has been fun but I think it would be best if I stopped here. I just wanted to show another point of view that might actually end up working out. Keep an open mind and keep studying. Goodbye and God bless.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/10/2009 15:40 pm

Foz, thanks for the apology. To answer your question about the beast of 17..This portrayal of the beast here is written after the angels had already let go of 7 last plagues. That is at the end of the story. I am trying to say the woman of 12 dies during the sixth seal (which is another mention of the sun moon and stars) which is at the beginning of the war. Even in Genesis when they mentioned the sun and moon and stars God was refering to real people in that family while discussing the future of that same family. The internet has not pulled a fast one on anyone on this being a real woman bc no one wants to believe it bc of what meanings it would change if I were right concerning what the church believes in many ways, but I don’t think this should threaten anyone. Like I said.. there was always something in the pages of the bible about prophecy that we would one day come to understand and that would happen by letting go of a few misconceptions. And Jayant might not be able to find much about the sun, moon and stars but try googling the phrase “woman in travail”. She is all over the bible. All over almost every end time prophecy. So I think the connection between 12 & 17 is only satan and that he affects both partys but I would agree with you on the fact that it would be very important to be wary of the differences of the two which are many. As far as testing her..I would imagine that if God took the time to tell us about her ahead of time then he will surely prepare her for what comes her way. She is a prophet.(Isaiah 66) Again, that is how she knew her children b4 they were born. Find the woman in travail text. Read it with your understanding. then stop and read it with my understanding. Her being real..You might be surprized.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/9/2009 19:25 pm

Jayant,
Which church might that be. There’s 7 types of them list in Rev 2 through Rev 3. The last church is spit out of God’s mouth. Don’t think that one will be his bride. She is to be tried in the fire, according to Jesus.
Until people can explain the parameters I’ve brought to light, I simply cannot put any confidence into the convenient statements being made.
I thought the entire purpose of these blogs is to dig into scripture (ALL OF SCRIPTURE) and weigh them against all contingencies.
That isn’t happening.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/9/2009 05:12 am

can’t we debate another topic?

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/9/2009 05:03 am

Christina,
I stand corrected concerning your expression of the age of this so called prophetess. I found your blog #86 somewhat confusing, and I misinterpreted what you said (my mistake). Thank you for your correction.
As far as being “long winded” . . . . your missing my approach. Scripture is interpreted line upon line, precept upon precept. Systematic logical reasoning requires the same time & carefulness. I employ a rigorous standard when exploring God’s word, especially the prophetic. All scripture must fit, all scripture and its content must be addressed and justified. I am thorough, if not simplys out of respect for God’s word and those I share it with. I feel God would require no less from me.
As far as our conversation . . . . what I do not understand, is what part of the 10 horns (10 kings) on a 7 headed beast (end-time world government) is not understood? As a student of scripture, I thought you’d see these two figures/metaphors being specifically identified and explained. God gave the decipher of these two figures in Rev 17. I assume He did it to assist us unravel Rev 12 (and the rest of the book). To ignore it would be to ignore God’s word and His purposes for having these facts penned. Maybe he placed these deciphers there so we would recognize the signs of the times when they manifest. I suspect it would also help His people from running after those who would exalt themselves a prophet or prophetess, deceiving well meaning believers eager to idolize anything mysterious if it felt such honored God.
Well, unless the media and all the Internet has pulled an outrageous deception, there is no evidence that the 10 rulers and a manifest world government (of Rev 12) are ruling this planet. (Not yet anyway.)
The text of Rev 12 tells us that the woman is still only pregnant when these two end-time political groups finally do come to power. Thus, how can the manchild have been born back in the late 90’s (your words were, “She fled after the baby was born that would still have been back in August/ Sept 1996.”) when scripture tells us he/it (the manchild) will not be born until AFTER the 10 rulers and the last world government come to power?
I really do not know how to ask this any simpler.
As a student of scripture, I hope you’d respect God’s deciphers (Rev 17) for these scriptures and at least attempt to address these blatant discrepancies with other scriptures. Until I receive scriptural correction, I’m reluctant to embrace those news paper articles you mentioned that spoke of Virgo, and however this alleged prophetess is made known to the world.

Ps. I apologize if you think I called you an occultist, I did not. The truth be known, the majority of Christians ignorantly participate in the Occult. Most do not realizing the majority of Christian traditions & customs originated from the Occult as opposed to the Hebraic-Christian-based church practiced by the Apostles & disciples of Christ. There is a reason it is called the Roman Universal Church.
If people are running after the mysterious (the word Occult means, the mysterious), and they are running after it without testing the spirit or because it has a warm & fuzzy religious/spiritual feeling to it, then it rates as “mysterious”. A prophetess with no substantial proof is running after the mysterious. The church of Christ is full of such this.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/9/2009 05:02 am

Once again I would submit that the church of Jesus Christ is His bride and so she cannot be the WOMAN of Rev.12.

Secondly, the only other place we have the reference of Sun, Moon and Stars is in Genesis 37:9,10, where sun is Jacob, his wife is moon and eleven stars are the brothers of Joseph. Joseph himself being the twelfth star. here is the clear indication of the nation of Israel.

In keeping with the number of prophesies in the Bible about the nation of Israel, we cannot avoid the resurgence and revival of the nation of Israel in 1948! This is something unbelievable to human eyes!

It seems to me that before the establishment of Nation of Israel in 1948,the biblical scholars might have been skeptical about the fulfillment of the prophesies about Israel and they interpreted them spiritually to support the scriptures.

God has his plan about Israel and also about the Church that includes Israel as well. In the end time Israel will be in the front line to be finally brought in the one fold!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/7/2009 16:39 pm

First of all, I am not an occultist. I am a student of scripture. I am no more chasing after fairy tales studying it than anyone else. Also, I didn’t mean the woman is 2000 years old. I said she is a descendant of the remnant of the 12 tribes of Judah. In addition, there is a war in HEAVEN with the angel Michael, but there is WWIII on earth that happens.This BOY leads that earthly army.. And there is an over abundance of information that supports what I am saying but you are all so busy chastising me that you never asked me how I even came to my conclusions. The war is on Earth! People are fighting for their lives so you need to start considering the difference between what happens here and what happens in heaven. You want to know what is really bizarre? For all your calculations and study none of the answers ya’ll have presented even came close to making prophecy easier to understand. In fact I found them longwinded and harder to understand than the prophecy itself.. At least mine makes sense. Even if you don’t have the sense to realize it or the aptitude.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/6/2009 18:32 pm

Christina,
First, the woman is a legend . . . . I would not invest my life and faith into even the thought of a 2000 year old woman who is running around making babies. (And dare I ask the question, who’s the father of this alleged child and the alleged remnant?) I would require some substantial evidence that a 2000 year woman is alive before sharing such with my friends. God would not allow this, and doesn’t. Rev 12 is metaphoric in expression, just as it pretty much is in every other chapter of the book of Revelation. The woman of Rev 12 is a figure and type of a soon-to-be-real-organization. The metaphor (of a woman being a religious organization/church system) is used throughout scripture; both Old Testament and New Testament. 2000 year old people are not . . . . not even Adam or Moses or Jesus or anyone up to modern day would be allowed be excused the same fate that all other humans are required to experience by God (taxes & death). And the only reason I’m addressing this issue is because I’ve done so with so with many other confused people who love to run after fairy tales and the bizarre . . . . all of them found wanting in the end.
This is definitely Occult teaching. (That’s the kindest language I can find to describe it). I would strongly recommend anyone exposed to this to test the spirit before proceeding one step further. And my gut (or should I say the Spirit) tells me that this may not be the only Occult you are involved with.
Be careful.
In addition: The manchild of Rev 12 does not fight in any war after its birth. Michael does. Read the text. Those of the manchild company are the raptured saints. Scripture seems to indicate that they will return with the Lord to destroy those who come against the prince of peace; after which they will rule and reign with the Lord, with a rod of Iron.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/6/2009 10:58 am

Fozman..

No there isn’t anything on the internet, I know.. I looked too, but it says in Isaiah that you would “see what you had not heard and understand what you did not know”. Even Jayant is here to consider those things. When I read your comment I thought that your points were sincere and very intelligent and worthy of discussion. I do believe she is a real person. I also think that satan is the same beast in 12 is the same as 17, but the difference is how satan views these women. At the beginning she is pregnant, but she is also in labor about to give birth and does. The actions of the beast are marked throughout the war so one reference to the activity of Satan does not necessarily mean you can link the two events as simultaneously, only that they have a common denominator. In reference to the child..if he was born when the confict starts he would not be old enough to fight for many years. He would have to be born years before the war starts..Because even in that chapter it says the boy is born to rule…someday. Bethula is in Virgo. That did absolutely happen in ‘96. If this was a metaphoric woman she could be pregnant for years, but this woman is real. She gave birth whenever it was time and that time was to prepare for the gov’t you speak of. If we are in the end days now I can promise you all the people are on earth right now even if we don’t know who or where they are right now, but they are all here to play their parts when it happens. The woman and child must be too. They are our defense. The child being born as the action starts would actually make his arrival late.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/5/2009 15:58 pm

Jayant,

I briefly looked at your suggestion of the TWO – 3-1/2 year period. I plan to hit it harder over the next few days. Until then, I can say that I think we may have been suggesting close to the same thing, only that we may be different as to when things may start.

What I am suggesting (and what I suggested when I questioned that the 3-1/2 years = 42 months = time, times, ½ times = 1260 days are all same event period) is that the 7th trump and the catching up of the manchild begins the first 3-1/2 year period. The second period would be after the protection upon the woman of Rev 12 is lifted. I suspect this second period is when the anti-X blasphemes God, establishes the mark of the right hand & forehead, and begins his mass destruction/purge/genocide of the world. Thus, there would be two, 3-1/2 year periods, along with a 7 years anti-X government covenant, which is broken after the first 3-1/2 year period; that being the 3-1/2 year grace period upon the woman of Rev 12. I also suggest that the two witnesses will minister during that first 3-1/2 year period (the 3-1/2 year grace period upon the woman of Rev 12).

Much would depend upon when the 7 year anti-X covenant is first established. I must dig deeper, but my initial gut reaction is that this will happen when Satan is cast down by Michael at the last trump, causing him to incarnate into the anti-X. I believe this is when he takes power from the 10 horns (world leaders), coming to power and allowing him to make & authorize said covenant.

Like I said, this hypothesize would maintain the 2 witnesses’ ministry inside the 3-1/2 year grace period and place their demise at the same time the woman is martyred . . . . right at the beginning of the anti-X’s campaign to eradicated the world of those who will not worship him.

It fits . . . . so far. I will have to dig even deeper, especially into Daniel. There is mention in Daniel of the small horn (most consider to be the anti-X) wearing out the saints. This could be the 1/3rd of the stars, or it could be the destruction of the remnant, half-baked believers from the woman of Rev 12. There’s also stuff about when the sacrifice is started and cut off, using some strange numbers, which may also carry some weight.

Should be a good study.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/5/2009 06:19 am

Christina,

When I teach on the woman of Rev 12, (or any prophetic passage) I attempt to harmonize all the prophetic parameters described in the text. In other words, all the parameters must apply to my conclusion, else I find myself in a vulnerable position of not being able to explain EVERY jot and title of the passage. That is to say, if even one of those prophetic elements are not fulfilled, or are ignored/dismissed then I can be confident the explanation of a passage in question has major discrepancies, and is not the correct explanation. ALL scripture must be fulfilled, including those small bits we may consider as non-significant. In other words, if God spent the time and ink to express something, it must be important . . . . especially when it comes to the prophetic. I believe God designed it that way for our protection.

Let me ask you a question. In the case of this alleged woman, Bethula. I’m not sure if you think this is a real person or not from your block. Regardless, you indicate you believe she is the woman of Rev 12. You also indicate you believe she gave birth around 1996. In there lies a discrepancy. Rev 12 has very specific metaphors. First, the woman was to PREGNANT at a time the 10 horns were ruling the 7th headed world government. This is one of the main metaphors. My prior postings all cover where scripture directly explains the meanings of these figures. I recommend a review.

Here’s the problem: Neither the 7th world government nor these 10 world leaders ruling are manifest, especially in 1996. Soon, maybe. But not as of the year 2009, much less 1996. And when these world leaders do become manifest, then the woman of Rev 12 is only PREGNANT and laboring to give birth. (The birth hasn’t taken place yet.) So, if this Bethula has already given birth to an alleged manchild in 1996, both her and whatever she gave birth to are fundamentally disqualified. She gave birth too soon to be the fulfillment of the passage.

In other words, the text in Rev 12:4 does NOT say, “and the dragon stood before the woman which had already been delivered, for to devour her child which was already born.”
We would have to cut out the part of scripture where it says that the woman was travailing with birth pains, not to mention the great falling away of the stars (believers) also described in 2 Thess 2:1-4.

I guess I would feel more comfortable standing before Jesus some day, and he asks me about the carefulness I applied to his word in discerning his word. He will ask this of all of us. I would like to tell him with confidence that I explored all the prophetic parameters, all the prophetic elements, and weighed as many contingencies as possible to find the best representation of how Rev 12 should be expressed. Thus, if even one of the prophetic parameters or elements are not fulfilled, or if it is violated in some manner I have to dismiss it. I am responsible before the Lord for that standard.

I can understand the passion people have to support those they give their allegiance to. However, I’ve been there, done that, and got burned big time, witnessing lives irreparably changed as the result. We will all face that learning curve whether we want to or not, whether we think we will or not. Unfortunately, that learning curve is a function of our own willingness (or lack there of) to self-account; that is to say, to test the spirit on our own as opposed to employing the answers of some religious figure we’ve place over ourselves.

Allow me to state this another way. There is good reason God’s word warns us to prove all things and to beware of fraud/counterfeit. Granted, it is a tough thing to stand up to those in high religious positions we’ve been conditioned to respect and honor. I had to do it with friends who called themselves prophets & apostles. They claimed their teaching was a manifestation of the 7th thunder of Revelation. They could not, however, justify what happened to the preceding 6 thunders, nor why none of their prophecies came to pass to any discernable level. I was pretty much “ex-communicated” from their little community for my questions. That was a few years back. Since then, 4 of the 6 who ran with remarkable doctrine have died. Obviously they are no longer able spearhead this great grass-roots move of God they were allegedly commissioned to fulfill through their alleged prophetic calling. Funny, I stood on God’s word and was dismissed because I was apparently not “prophetic” enough for them. Yet, everything I confronted them with came to pass. Nothing they declared did. I don’t know . . . . color me ignorant, but I always thought that accuracy was supposed to be the main outcome of a prophetic declaration.

In short, Christina I guess I would feel more comfortable if this Bethula aka waited to give birth until after the 10 world rulers are on scene, just like the text specifically articulates. Giving birth PRIOR to these rulers coming on line would nullify any prophet fulfillment. That said, I think you owe it to yourself to look into who this person is. I certainly would not risk my relationship with the Lord or my eternal prospects on some legend.

But I did check out the name, Bethula. In Hebrew it means Virgo (And Virgo is just another name for Ishtar, Isis, Astarte, Astoreth, Inna, and sometimes Juno; all said to be the queen of heaven; the queen of heaven that the children of Israel prostituted themselves to offending God in the process).
I believed I gave a rather weighty piece of evidence in a former blog that just recently, Virgo manifested in the constellations with 12 stars over her head and Drago (the dragon) at her feet. This cosmic procession only takes place over Jerusalem every 30,000 years or so. Thus, it would certainly be a “wonder in the heavens” (Rev 12:1), and have significant purpose if God meant it as and event-specific occurrence needed to help announce the 7th trumpet. All we need now, is for these two constellations to line up in proper alignment with whatever heavenly bodies needed to represent a manchild/king. Not sure what is or will be. Many on the internet have tried. But obviously, the 7th head ruled by 10 kings has not happened yet.

As for a real live person, Bethula . . . . don’t count on it . . . and there was nearly nothing on the internet pertaining to such a woman, if a real woman is what you were referring to.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/5/2009 06:18 am

Jayant,

Excellent presentation on your last blog, and some real solid thought. This is the kind of dialogue I’ve been looking for . . . I’m searching for those things I haven’t considered. In this case, the thought of TWO – end time 3-1/2 year periods of prophetic/apocalyptic events. For some strange reason, I haven’t really considered that contingency; probably because I was taught long ago that the first 3-1/2 years was the ministry of Jesus, who was cut off mid-week. I never really even thought of this possibly being the anti-X being tweaked mid-week. Thus, this is a real possible application. Why not?

Thanks, Jayant . . . .You gave me a lot of good stuff to process, and you could very well be correct in your breakdown. I’ll be taking this one back to the drawing board and kick it around the block a few times to see what shakes out.

Couple other questions:

Have you found where the 144,000 are expressly labeled or called “The First Fruits”? I ask because the term is specific to an offering found in the 7 day Feast of Unleavened bread. The 7 days of Unleavened bread is (as you are probably very well aware of) the festival commonly called Passover. Calling it Passover is a bit misleading. Passover is only an overnight ritual. The 7 days of Unleavened bread is for a week comprised of 3 Sabbaths, two of which are high Sabbaths . . . . and the “first fruit” offering is stuck into the 2nd day of the festival.

Allow me to be more specific.

The 7 days of Unleavened bread is for a week. It is initiated by the slaughter of an unblemished male lamb on the day of preparation, and the partaking there of during the night ritual of Passover. The day of preparation for the Passover begins on the 14 of Nisan. Passover begins on the 15th of Nisan (usually the first full moon closest the Spring Equinox), and ends at the rising of the sun. The 15th is the first high Sabbath of that festival, this high Sabbath lasting 24 hours. The actual biblical “first fruits” is a wave offering that occurs on the 16th of Nisan (I believe toward the evening). The resurrection is on the 17th of Nisan (14th to the 17th = 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb), and occurred long before sunrise.

My point? . . . . According to the original foundation of the term, there is only one first fruit. That would be Jesus. He is the first of humanity to be offered up from amongst the brethren; offered to God as a sacrifice.

As for the 144,000, I don’t see either an element of sacrificed or an example of them being an offered up to God. I can accept them being labeled as the “First Chosen.” But unless that specific term “first fruits” is applied to the 144,000, I would have to say that (at most) they are the “first fruits” in only a very qualified way, and that only because is sounds kind of cool. Regardless, I cannot (as of yet) see them as a literal first fruits fulfilling what “first fruits” was defined as in the feasts and ordinances of God. “First Fruits” is a very specific term used to identify a very specific and unique type for Jesus.

On the other hand, if you could find me a specific passage expressly calling the 144,000 the “first fruits”, I would gladly correct my train of thought. Please send me such if you have found such.

Thanks again.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/5/2009 06:14 am

Reference to post #101:

Yeah, God is merciful and just as well; for that very reason there are seven trumpets followed by seven vials of wrath.( Seven trumpets are not called trumpets of wrath.)If we say that seven trumpets and seven vials are the same, why not say that even seven seals are also same with them? I am not inclined to believe that the seven trumpets and the seven vials are the same, for the proportion of destruction differs, one forth in the case of seven seals, one third in the case of trumpets and all inclusive in the case of vials. The intensity increases!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/4/2009 09:00 am

Bye-Bye, Scott.

We’re done.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/4/2009 07:25 am

Fozman,

You certainly have a way with words. A very confusing way I might add. If you feel insulted by my comments, how should I feel about yours? I have answered you plainly. I have told you I don’t agree with your conclusion that the Last Trump mentioned by Paul has anything to do with the 7th Trump of Revelation. Somehow, you are convinced they’re the same. (I think you must be using pathetically poor exegesis).

But how do you expect me to answer to a conclusion I don’t agree with? I will indulge you a bit longer. I will read the question back to you as suggested and then if necessary, you can walk me through it any way you like. My remarks will be in [CAPS]. Here goes:

“If the rapture is the last trump [ACCORDING TO 1 COR 15] (knowing [ASSUMING] the last trump [OF 1 COR 15] is the7th trump [OF REV 11], which is [PART OF] the last seal Jesus opens), then who experiences the seals and trumps that precede it since no one is raptured until the last trump?” [ACCORDING TO YOUR SCENARIO, EVERYBODY WHO IS ON THE EARTH WILL EXPERIENCE THE SEALS AND TRUMPS IN SOME WAY, BUT YOUR SCENARIO IS SIMPLY WRONG] And what does a quick glance at the contents of these seals & trumps reveal (as to their severity)? [IT AIN’T GOOD. BUT WHAT’S THE POINT?]

If I’m at all guilty of “dancing” as you say, it’s only because you are leading. I will say it again. Your question makes no sense to me. If you wish to debunk my position, then ask me questions about MY position. Don’t ask me questions about YOUR position. If you want to discuss the relevance (or lack thereof) between the Last Trump and the 7th Trump, I say fine, let’s do it; but nothing you’ve put forth so far is anywhere near convincing so the burden of proof is on you to show that Paul was talking specifically about the 7th trump of judgment in Revelation and that there could not possibly be any other trumpet blasts between now and then. Good luck.

I will tell you straight up that I don’t know what trump Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15. I have some ideas but I don’t know for certain. I find it interesting that you can take two completely separate books of the Bible and conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that a trumpet blast in one is the very same blast as in the other. But when one book (Rev) all by itself speaks specifically of persecuted saints in two separate chapters (6 and 12 and others) you conclude beyond a shadow of doubt that they are NOT the same saints. Like I said; poor exegesis.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/4/2009 06:18 am

Please, Scott, stop insulting my intelligence. You perfectly understand the question. Everyone else has. You just don’t want to answer it.

But if you insist on continuing this frivolous little dance:

Which trump do you think Paul was referring to when he identify the “the dead and the living meeting Jesus in the air at the LAST TRUMP?” (1 Thess 4:16 // 1 Cor 15:52)

Maybe the apostle Paul was referring to the 3rd trump . . . . NOPE, that doesn’t quite equate with the word “LAST.”

Or maybe the author who inspired Paul to pen the words “last trump” isn’t the same author who inspired the apostle John to reveal all 7 trumps. Maybe there are some other trumps out there. NOPE, those are the only trumps written about inspired by the one author (God’s Spirit).

(I am open for suggestions as to what other trumps Paul was referring to.)

So . . . . . . . . ., one final shot, Scott. And I’ll phrase it to make it even easier.

ASSUMING that the 7 trumps in the book of Revelation are the same trumps Paul is referring to; and ASSUMING that 1 Thess 4:16 // 1 Cor 15:52 are rapture passages (which you stated they were). . . . . it would be self-evident that the last trump of Paul is the 7th trumpet revealed by John. And thus, the rapture happens on the 7th trump. Assuming both apostles were hearing from God before penning their words, I really don’t think we have to assume anything. It is clear.

So, Scott, just answer the question.“If the rapture is the last trump (knowing the last trump is the7th trump, which is the last seal Jesus opens), then who experiences the seals and trumps that precede it since no one is raptured until the last trump?” And what does a quick glance at the contents of these seals & trumps reveal (as to their severity)?

Now, if you are truly struggling with the question, then maybe you could read the question back to me. I’d be happy to walk you through it. Then again, I recognized the dance from the start. Sad to say, this dialogue will most probably end this way. But it’s good that other people can begin to see the dance steps people take to avoid answering even the simplest of questions.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/4/2009 03:34 am

Reference to post # 96 by Fozman:

I would like to share my understanding about the two periods of 3 ½ years each.

The book of Daniel contains the end time prophesies that were then sealed. One cannot therefore avoid those prophesies while considering the prophesies in the book of Revelation.

I am not discussing the war that is described in Daniel 8 or the seventy weeks prophesy in chapter 9. But it is clearly mentioned that his period is determined or earmarked for Daniel’s people and the city of Jerusalem. But when Daniel wanted to know about the end time struggle, he refers to the period a time, two times and half. (This is certainly one half of the last seventieth week). One should note therefore that God has not still done with the nation of Israel, and she has still a role in the end time, before she is finally amalgamated in the One fold. It is for this reason that we have 1, 44,000 chosen from the tribes as the first fruits. They are mentioned as first fruits and it indicates that a much lager bumper crop is to follow. It is therefore the gates of the New Jerusalem are named after the twelve tribal heads.

The Antichrist is to make a covenant for a week and that he is going to break it in the middle of the week. The middle of the week indicates there is one whole week.

The first half of the week is the time of warning and preparation. The two witnesses are to preach for 3 ½ years. This is the first half of the week. Since they are witnessing, it would certainly not be a period of woes and pouring of wrath. Of course if some wants to hurt them they can bring fire from heaven. They will not allow to rain as it may hinder the work of their witnessing. (Elijah too had stopped rain for 3 ½ years). The Antichrist cannot do anything to them. It is only towards the middle of the week that the antichrist kills the two witnesses. The Antichrist then comes in full sway in the latter part of the week blaspheming God for a period of 3 ½ years. It is in this latter part that the wrath of god is poured on the kingdom of the Antichrist and those who give allegiance to him. Before this the Church is taken up and the nation of Israel is protected and preserved for the one thousand reign of Christ on the earth. Thus I see that there are two periods of 3 ½ years. Thus the seven trumpets are also included in the first 3 ½ years.

If you mark, see that the period of 3 ½ years is differently described. In the case of God’s people it is 1260 days (Rev. 11:3 and rev.12:6) where in the case of Satan and the Gentiles It is 42 months (Rev. 11:2 and Rev. 13:5) Please remember the temple cannot be trodden by the Gentiles while the two witnesses are here with all their power. It also therefore falls in the second half of the week when the Satan has his full sway through the Antichrist empowered by him and supported by the prophets.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/2/2009 02:38 am

About rapture….I think rapture of church happens before war starts around seal 7. … The coming of Christ to kick butt in final battle is the 7th Trumpet…

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/2/2009 00:51 am

Jayant,

I concur that God IS merciful; but God is also just. There is no indication or suggestion that there is anything but pure wrath being poured out during the 7 trumpets (the 7th seal). The time of mercy mingled with wrath was during seals 1 thru 6.., thousands repent and get saved (this is the time of Joel’s prophecy). Those who don’t only harden their hearts.

The time of the 7 trumpets is the time of Zephaniah’s prophecy when NO mercy is given for repentance. The 7 trumpets ARE Daniel’s 70th week and the last half of it is the time of Jacob’s Trouble. It will not be a good time to be on the earth.

BTW: the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls are the very same judgments. There are only 7 (not 14). (No doubt, SOMEBODY won’t agree with that

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/2/2009 00:50 am

Ok, Foz… Obviously, I have a different opinion than you do about “her” identity… I believe she is human, so naturally I couldn’t see where interpreting any of this as Israel would make sense ..But if she was Israel, I still wouldn’t go with the outcome you describe based on history, bc the prophecy in rev 12 is viewed tenderly by God at this junction in time in this verse which refers to redemption. The problem the woman is having here is from Satan which means she has a better chance of being a prophet and a martyr. Which in a sense you could call “destroyed” by the time she dies, but consider the 6th seal again..Moon as blood? Sun in sacklothe? Looks to me like her death (martyrdom)heralds the tribulation. I think she is called to do it and will do it by making the same choice we will all have to make. Her’s is just more public. I think the 5th seal adds proof. The saints and martyrs are calling out for revenge.. God says wait until the number of your brethren is complete. Then there is the 6th seal. My views on the seals, bowl judgements and trumpets are different too. I believe there is no 7th seal of the 7th trumpet. They are separate events. She has not been revealed yet so she could not have died yet so saying how she dies as past tense is really out there. But rev 12 can’t be Israel bc Israel doesn’t die. Victory is in store for that nation maybe bc of her future sacrifice.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/2/2009 00:47 am

May I drop in on one point?

God could have used seven bells or seven drums, instead of seven trumpets! But when he uses trumpets he wants to to send a message. A message of warning, a message to hear! God gives final warnings to the unrepentants. Oh, what a merciful God he is!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/1/2009 17:45 pm

Fozman,

I’d be happy to answer your question if I understood it. I don’t agree with the basic premise that the rapture is at the last trump so I’m not understanding what you are looking for. If your question is meant to be a challenge to my position, perhaps you could restate it and I’ll give it the old college try.

Regarding my point about who hears the trumpets; I raise this simple question because I see no clear SCRIPTURAL evidence linking Paul’s statement with the 7th trumpet. Nothing you’ve presented thus far does this. Your point would be plausible if there was a strong link but (in my humble opinion) there is just too much weight against it from other scriptures.

Regarding the timing of the rapture, I am not suggesting that YOU are attempting to set dates. What I am suggesting is that the rapture/resurrection is a top secret event regarding the day and hour (timing). But if the rapture doesn’t occur until the 7th trump, even a caveman could set his sundial to know when it was going to happen. Granted, this won’t be possible until the 6th trumpet is “heard” but 3 1/2 years is still quite a long time to know in advance just when such an event will occur; especially if the purpose is to keep it hidden from your enemies.

You have rightly drawn a distiction between the TIMING of the rapture and the sequence of EVENTS leading to the rapture. The enemies of Christ care little about EVENTS and their sequence. They either can’t figure them out or else they become bored with them because it REQUIRES faith and they don’t have any nor do they want any. The child of God, on the other hand is full of faith and will be ABLE to understand the (near enough) TIMING of the rapture because he recognizes the events. Jesus wants us to be EVENT-oriented not TIMING-oriented. This is why he gives the saints numerous events to watch for. In effect, he is telling the saints when the rapture is going to occur in a “language” that his enemies will never understand.

Those “christians” who are into date-setting play into the hands of Christ’s enemies.., and perhaps, some of them ARE enemies of Christ. But in my mind, I think it would be completely contrary to the purpose and character of Christ to reveal the TIMING of the rapture.., let alone, PUBLISH it.

(Just as a point of clarification: I draw a strict distinction between the secret timing of the rapture/resurrection and the revealed timing of the return of Christ in power and glory. The (pre-chapter 6) rapture timing is hidden, but once the seals begin to break, even Satan (the caveman) will be able to figure out when Christ is coming. It seems to me, that by linking these two things together at the 7th trump you would be inadvertantly revealing the TIMING of the rapture).

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/1/2009 13:21 pm

Christina,
If the woman of Rev 12 in any degree parallels the nation of Israel at their destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, then she did not give her life. She was judged.
Israel was judged by God for her many, many, many perversions and for no longer following the commandments, judgments, and statues of God (This reason is specifically stated by the prophets multiple times). Now, it would take me far too long to itemize their apostasy. Suffice it to say that their apostasy (from my research) was beyond measure. Some if it is recorded in scripture. That which is, is quite serious.
And the church and America has long ago surpassed what Israel did back then.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/1/2009 12:06 pm

No problemo, Jayant,
In fact, your words gave me pause for thought. I’m always looking to focus my understanding of things, and correction is a key element of that. So, when someone raises a thought that catches me off guard, I work it to its logical end. This is probably the main reason I keep coming back to these blogs. . . . I want to know what people are thinking and how they got there.
You commented that you thought the two witnesses perform their ministry before the rapture, before the last trump. May I suggest that their 3-1/2 years are the same “3-1/2 years // 42 months // time, times, ½ times // 1260 days” that are referenced throughout the book of Rev. Matching numbers, types, and such specifics often ties passages & events together.
I also consider this based on the book of Daniel and Rev 12 both speaking of believers being cast down, and the EVENT of the holy city being trampled down by the Gentiles . . . and when the beast comes out of the pit. I know there is a temptation to make everything stated in these passages as being in consecutive order. However, I see no problem that Rev 11 may be projecting part of this forward, since most of the verbiage dealing with this is spoken in future tense in Rev 11.
Then again, I WHEN this occurs (in reference to all the other events we’ve discussed) is not necessarily critical. It just fits much better for me when we dial the 2 witnesses into that same 42 months referenced everywhere else.
Keep up the good fight.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/1/2009 11:58 am

Scott,
If it gets you to answer my question, I’ll answer yours.
“Are the trumps heard?” My first answer is, “The bible doesn’t say. If it did, I’d be happy to embrace it.” But not to avoid the question, I will answer this . . . .“Who do I THINK will hear it?” Again, I can only guess since scripture is void of that answer, but I could easily see all of heaven and all of hell hearing it, and those on earth who God chooses to hear it.
And in response to your comment on Jesus “hiding the rapture”:
I will agree that Jesus ONLY said that the Father would know the DAY or the HOUR (Matt 25:13, Mark 13:32) of his return. However, the “last trump catching up” was specifically identified by Paul. And that identifier is not a DAY or an HOUR (thus, Jesus’ words are not challenged by Paul). I never suggested any man will know the DAY or an HOUR of the rapture. All I suggested was a specific EVENT; that EVENT which marks the rapture being the last trump. This is not date-setting, and I’m at a loss as to how anyone could conclude from my words (or Paul’s) that it is date-setting. It bears repeating, all I did was restate the EVENT that Paul stated. I do not know the DAY or HOUR of the last trump. I do know I stand in good company when I quote Paul. (Didn’t I quote 3 different passages by Paul?)
Yes, Jesus definitely stated the date & time (DAY & HOUR) will remain hidden. However, Jesus lists multiple EVENTS that will mark the time of his return. Even you made reference to them. And for what it is worth, has anyone noticed that the entire book or Revelation is filled with marked events (identified by Jesus) signifying his return? This doesn’t seem as if Jesus is keeping the season of the rapture a secret.
Now, it’s your turn. Answer my question.
“If the rapture is the last trump (knowing the last trump is the7th trump, which is the last seal Jesus opens), then who experiences the seals and trumps that precede it since no one is raptured until the last trump?” And what does a quick glance at the contents of these seals & trumps reveal (as to their severity)?

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 7/1/2009 11:33 am

Post #90:
I am really sorry, Fozman. Just forgive me.

But I was thinking about seventh trump, especially Rev.10:7: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (the sixth angel has his trump sounded in rev. 9:13) the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants prophets.”

The mystery of God is the Church. While discussing about the Church in colossians 1, Paul says, ” Even the mystery which hath been hid from the ages and from generations , but now is made manifest to the saints.”Paul refers to it again in Ephesian 3:1-10, especially vv,5,6 and 9. The mystery is that Christ in you the hope of glory! Christ is the head and the church is his body. This body comprises of both the Jews and Gentiles

The body of Christ is to be presented in all glory(Ephes.5:27), a glorious church! How? By transfiguration, resurrection and rapture! And this is called a great mystery(1 Cor. 15:51 & 1 Thess. 4:13-18) When will this happen? ” at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Now when shall the trumpet be sounded? In Rev. 11:15, that is after the two witnesses are taken up into heaven. [But mind well, that the Beast which comes out of the pit(which may also have some reference to Rev. 9;1-11)fights with the two witnesses and kills them, is described in Chapter 13 how it comes out of the pit.]But the seventh trump has these effects:1)the Lord reigns, and 2) His wrath on his enemies is poured(rev. 11:15-17 and 18. But the wrath of God is poured in chapter 16. So in between chapter 11 to 16, there is rapture, and it would be before the pouring of the wrath. For the seventh seal includes the seven trumpets and the seven trump includes the seven vials of wrath. No date for raputure is fixed. It seems to me that rapture is mentioned in Rev. 14:14-16!

Seventh trumpet in not some fixed time,but a period, for it is written “In the days of the voice of the seventh angel.” Again, only the mystry of God concludes first and the wrath of God comes next. Please correct me where I have mistaken.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/30/2009 17:04 pm

Fozman,

There are many reasons I don’t agree with your equating the Rapture with the Last Trump. I haven’t been avoiding your points, it’s just that I find most of them unworthy of discussion. For that matter, you yourself avoided my point about whether the sound of the 7 Trumpets is ever heard on the earth or if they are only heard in heaven. Seems to be a valid point to ME.

But let me take you down another unusual path.

Do you agree that on more than one occasion, Jesus makes a point to suggest that the timing of the Rapture is a bit of a secret? Have you ever wondered why that might be? It’s naturally easy to conclude that it’s for our own good that we don’t know the timing of the Rapture for fear that we will become complacent. However, the church has never had any difficulty becoming complacent; it seems to be quite in fashion these days so I don’t think that’s why the Rapture is a secret. (I’m tempted to discuss the reasons why but it will not serve our present discussion).

In Post #82 you said;

4). SIMPLE REASONING WOULD INSIST, THEREFORE, THAT ALL EVENTS DESCRIBED IN THE SEALS AND TRUMPS PRECEDING THE 7TH TRUMP WILL OCCUR BEFORE THE RAPTURE. WHY? BECAUSE THE RAPTURE (AS CLEARLY NOTED ABOVE) OCCURS AT THE LAST TRUMP. THE APOSTLE PAUL SAYS IT WILL IN 1 COR 15:51-53.
5). THE “MATH” SHOULD TELL US THAT ALL CHRISTIANS ALIVE UP-AND-TO THE RAPTURE WILL EXPERIENCE THOSE EVENTS FOUND IN THE SEALS AND TRUMPS THAT PROCEED THE LAST TRUMP.
THERE YOU HAVE IT . . . . SO EASY THAT EVEN A CAVEMAN CAN DO IT.

If it’s “so easy that a caveman can figure it out,” it must not be much of a secret!

And I agree that if the Rapture is at the 7th trump, there is very little mystery about when it’s going to take place for it will happen exactly 3 ½ years after the sound of the 6th trump! Or, if anyone does not happen to HEAR the 6th trump, there should be little doubt when it happens because the horrific results are so obvious.

To me, your insistence on this business of the Last Trump is sophomoric. Or, in your terms, cavemanish. It suggests to me that you have very little understanding of what’s really going on in chapters such as 5 and 10. I commend you on your interpretation of the Man-child but I’m at a loss to understand how you can see that truth yet go down a rabbit trail regarding the Last Trump. Do you not know that the saints (overcomers) will judge the world? When do you think that judgment begins?? At the last Trump or the FIRST??

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/30/2009 02:34 am

Not that it is all that important, but the thought that Satan is God’s “arch enemy” strikes me funny.

God could destroy Satan with a thought. So, is there really an issue of conflict between the two? In other words, since there is no comparison in authority, could we even use the words “arch enemy”? I think a more appropriate rendering is that Satan is God’s lap dog (if that much). He’s no more than a tool in God’s arsenal to be used of God in the making and maturing of His creation (shaping & testing humanity). No doubt, that “tool” will be discarded (to hell) some day because it will become totally useless to God when He wraps up this perfection process we are in. But as far as when it comes to calling God & Satan arch enemies (like Batman to the Riddler), I don’t think the titles fit.

The conflict is between man (humanity) and Satan. Thus, Satan is man’s arch enemy who continually attempts to usurp the authority meant for man. Jayant articulated it well when he said Satan attempts to put enmity between God and man. That leaves man with a choice (God’s choice has already been made, as seen with His efforts of redemption).

And the “last man” (or “last Adam,” as he is referred to . . . 1 Cor 15:45) was faced with that choice by entering fully into that conflict with Satan and staying the course; his blood now available to us.

I think that is where that “arch enemy” thing is unfolding as one attempts to bruise a heel, the other to crush a headship (Gen 3:15).

Just some food for thought . . . .

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 11:16 am

Couple of other thoughts for anyone still out there.

For what it’s worth, there are actually three women main “typed” or “typified” in the book of Revelation. 1) The woman of Rev 12, 2) The bride in Rev 19 (the New Jerusalem), 3) The Great Mother Harlot (Babylon the Great) of Rev 17 who is probably the Babylon of Rev 18. Rev 18 is where God attempts to call His people out of some religious system (Rev 18:4). “Come out of her, my people . . . .” (The remaining less-noticed women would be the harlots who are the daughters of the Mother of Harlots – Rev 17:5)

I believe the “Great Mother Harlot/Babylon the Great” of Rev 17:1-5 is the corporate head of the Roman-based universal church that has manipulated and ruled over world kings and monarchs for most of her existence. The figure is specified with great metaphorical detail in order to identify her to all Xian’s throughout the New Testament dispensation. Notice how she is called the “Mother” of harlots (Rev 17:5). . . . implying that God sees her offspring as harlots similar to how He sees her as the “great whore” (Rev 17:l). Hmmmmmmmm? Who might that offspring be?

There is a definite distinction between the “Great Mother Harlot/Babylon the Great” and the woman of Rev 12. I have mentioned numerous times now that history (archeology) has found the Rev 12 figure in many if not most pagan temples that surrounded the Apostle John when he penned the book of Revelation. She was the “queen of heaven,” entitled as Ishtar/Astarte/Astoreth/Isis/Juno/Frya, depending upon what dynasty, country, and/or culture you lived in. She was the fertility goddess of the cosmos. God compared a compromise Old Testament church, Israel, to this figure when Israel found herself spiritually compromised.

The woman of Rev 12 (when identified with the typology rendered in Rev 12:1) strongly suggests that she is a religious system, but not a system specific to a particular sect or denomination (as opposed to the type of the woman of Rev 17, the figure speaking of a specific corporation/entity). Thus, it is most probably that God purposely chose an analogy/figure that would encompass and incorporate all the churches with one fell swoop. She could very well represent all of the Protestant, ecumenical, fundamental, non-denominational churches who have separated themselves from the chief Roman-based corporate head who arrogantly claims to be the one true church of Christ. This “Rev 12-woman” still practices the Roman-based traditions she borrowed form her mother (the Harlot of Rev 17), thus, being disobedient and compromised mostly through ignorance and apathy. She profiles perfectly as the church of Loadicea of Rev 3:14.

This may very well be the design behind the 3-1/2 years of persecution to be experienced by the woman of Rev 12 and her remnant. Could this be God’s grace/mercy to motivate the Laodicea-type X-ians? Dragon fire strategically lit under the tushes of luke-warm X-ians has a way of drawing one’s attentions to the important things of God. These believers have missed the rapture and now must choose if they want to remain as Laodicea Xians (luke-warm and unpalatable), or be tried as gold in THE fire, as suggested in Rev 3:14-19.

In conclusion: There is an apostate church (Rev 12), there is a compromised/Laodicea-half-baked church (Rev 12), and the bride (Rev 19).

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 11:15 am

Jayant,

Please do not mis-represent my words. I never said God would destroy her after 3-1/2 years. (You wrote in reference to my suggestions, “How come that God preserves and protects the woman only to destroy the woman at the end of three years and a half?”) All I was trying to suggest was that God supplies protection for her for that 3-1/2 years, after which she would be martyred. And I hope I did not imply that God would martyr her; rather, EVIL FORCES will be allowed to. I suggested that the 3-1/2 years is a time allotted by God to allow the woman and her remnant to be formed from being Laodecia (half-baked), to being tried in the fire. God has done this many times with the children of Israel. The precedent, the precedent, the precedent, the precedent (4X for emphasis on “precedent”) is seen throughout the Old Testament and even in New Testament chronicles of Christian persecutions. But as far as the 3-1/2 years, there is no mention of what happens specifically to the woman the day after that time allotment is up. Scripture does, however, indirectly state the outcome.

Allow me to present a few scriptures which support my thesis. First, note that in Rev 17: 16-17 Gods put it in the hearts of the 10 horns to hate the whore and destroy her by devouring her flesh . . . figures of speech God allowed to be fulfilled upon the Children of Israel when they played the harlot. And since the woman of Rev 12 has played the harlot to some degree (I know this because the Rev 12 figure matches the “queen of heaven” who is the figure of the mother harlot of most past pagan dynasties throughout the history of man . . . .) then it may be safe to assume the woman of Rev 12 receives the same attention from God that the children of Israel did. “I am the Lord they God, I change not.” Mal 3:6

Read the passage:

Rev 17:16-17 And the ten horns . . . shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. (17) God (not the devil) hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will (which includes the destruction of the whore), and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

So, I do not agree with your comment, “What ridiculous and an extravagant thought!” as you labeled against me. All I did was report what God’s word states. I highly recommend that in the future people check such accusations; because I may just be quoting God’s word, in which case accusations would be calling what God said, “Ridiculous and an extravagant.”

To further the support of my suggestion (of a post 3-1/2 year martyrdom), may I draw your attention g to the mark of the beast. If Rev 6 thru 16 are in consecutive chronological order as we both have agreed upon, then it is most probably that the mark of the beast occurs after the 3-1/2 year protection. Scripture states that those who do not receive it will be destroyed. Would that not include the woman and her remnant who are still on the earth? Allow me to quote our Lord, so not to be “ridiculous and an extravagant.”

Rev 13:15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be KILLED.

Not to mention Rev 13:7

Rev 13:7 He was given power to make war against the SAINTS and to CONQUER them.

My suggestions are sound and completely scripturally based. I’ve backed it with numerous scriptures and more are available if you so require.

Of course, I’m always open to correction . . . . but that would mean someone would have to supply me with scripture that definitively reveals what happens to the woman after the 3-1/2 years.

Oh, ya . . . . if it is so awful to assume God allows the woman and her remnant to be killed after the 3-1/2 years, why has no-one raised a fuss about God allowing his two prophets/witnesses to be martyred after the 3-1/2 years (Rev 11)? Certainly, there devotion and obedience would keep them from such a fate. Scripture says otherwise.

I think where we error is that we attempt to make God into our image and likeness, assigning God our intentions if we were the one on the thrown. Certainly, we would never allow the woman of Rev12 to be destroyed. But then again, we would probably not allow the children of Bethlehem (and surrounding areas) to be destroyed at the birth of Christ if we knew it would happen. Nor would we permit all the inquisitions, X-ian persecutions, destruction of Old Testament Israel, or allow the millions of African X-ians in this modern age to be martyred. Yet, God allowed all the above; and He is still righteous, good, merciful . . . and he is still God, despite what attributes we want to assign Him.

I think we all have a lot to learn about Him yet.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 11:14 am

Jayant,

You are a true brother in Christ and no doubt, a very blessed man. I appreciate you.

Where to begin??

I shall start with your chronology. This is a very good time to learn a little more regarding the rules of prophetic interpretation. I am going to show you something that God did in the book of Daniel and by so doing, God set a precedent in place for interpreting future prophecies. The beauty of many of Daniel’s prophecies is that we can see HOW they were fulfilled because we can test them against history. Now please pay attention, this is not easy:

1.When God gives a prophetic vision regarding the time of the End; He uses figurative language. Usually, symbolic. For instance, this is manifestly evident throughout the book of Daniel. (Statue with head of gold; arms of silver etc. The lion; bear; leopard; beast; he-goat etc.).

2.However; God only uses this kind of prophetic language when the vision pertains to matters ON THE EARTH. Whenever God speaks of matters in heaven regarding the time of the End, he never uses symbolic language. It is always literal. It is often FANTASTIC language, but it is still literal.

Now at this point, I’m sure you are skeptical of what I’ve just said. Please just accept it for the moment. We can discuss it in detail later if you like and I believe I can prove the point. But stick with me a little longer.

Now, regarding your chronology of Rev 12; please note that verses 1 through 6 are clearly symbolic and sequential. (Remember; in figurative language the subject is always portrayed symbolically but the action is always literal). But then a major shift occurs in John’s vision in verse 7; he is no longer viewing a “great wonder” in the sky. John’s vision of the woman is suddenly interrupted and he is now viewing actual fantastic events that are taking place IN HEAVEN. You’ll note that the language in these verses is all literal. This part of John’s vision continues right on through verse 12. Then, just as suddenly, everything shifts back to symbolism and earthly events in verses 13 through 17.

By interrupting John’s vision of the woman and sandwiching in a glimpse of activity in heaven, God is telling us that the earthly events portrayed symbolically in verses 1-6 and 13-17 are taking place AT THE VERY SAME TIME as the heavenly verses 7-12.

In other words, the narrative of the woman reads uninterrupted if you simply remove verses 7 thru 12.

The precedent for this conclusion has been set by God Himself in Daniel chapter 7. Take some time and carefully read this chapter and you will see that the very same principle is utilized AND the interpretation is given proving the point. (If you are still with me, I suggest you investigate and meditate on these matters a bit before continuing on).

Now, everything I have said up to this point is for the purpose of pointing out a significant flaw in your chronology of Rev 12. You said;

-“The brethren overcame the devil by the blood of the lamb and by the testimony. They loved not their live (V.10-110 (This means that they were on earth, died on earth as martyrs),”

You have concluded that these brethren “died on the earth as martyrs”. This is incorrect. “Loving not their lives” does not necessarily mean they were martyred. Daniel “loved not his life unto death”. So did Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. It is BECAUSE they loved not their lives unto death THAT THEY WERE DELIVERED. Please note this next point carefully; the “overcoming” that is spoken of in verse 12 is NOT in regard to overcoming the Devil in verses 13 to 17; but rather in verses 4 and 5! This is a HUGE difference.

The Man-child is the overcomer who is snatched up to heaven to occupy the very same position of authority that Satan had in the heavenly realm. This is why Satan was poised to destroy this child the moment it was born but his plan was thwarted by Michael and his angels. Satan not only fails to destroy the heirs to the throne but he even loses ground in the process. When verse 12 says; “Rejoice you heavens, and you who DWELL IN THEM”; it is referring directly to these (man-child) saints who now occupy the heavenly realm (dwelling in them).

I’ve taken too much time on this point and now I’m exhausted (waaay past my bedtime). Jayant, if you have not yet done so, please take a little time to read and meditate on Daniel 6 the entire chapter. What is taking place in Revelation 12 is happening in TYPE in Daniel 6.

Shalom

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 05:58 am

She is not destroyed. She gives her life.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 03:05 am

Here are some observations on Revelation 12.

The chronological sequence of the events as described in Rev.12 is as follows:

-The woman with the child,
-the devil with his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
-The devil is ready to devour the child,
-The man-child is taken up to the throne of God,
-The woman flews to the wilderness for protection and preservation,
-War in heaven between Michael and his angels and the devil and his angels,

-The devil and his angels hurled down on the earth,
-The brethren overcame the devil by the blood of the lamb and by the testimony. They loved not their live (V.10-110 (This means that they were on earth, died on earth as martyrs),
-the Devil persecutes the woman,
-the woman flew to the wilderness. The devil cast out of his mouth water as flood after the women, but the earth opens up her mouth and swallowed up the flood,
-The devil starts persecuting rest of the children of the women (those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ).

Now if the persecution of the brethren (who overcome) is after the war in heaven and after the devil is hurled on the earth, how can the rapture of the over-comers (Man child) be pre-tribulation rapture, that is, even before the first seal is opened? How can there be the question of overcoming, till there is severe persecution by the furious devil mentioned in Rev. 12.

When the Man child (over-comers) born to the woman is taken up and the rest of the children of the woman who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus are persecuted, who then is this woman and why is she protected and preserved for a period of three years and a half- (when she is neither the one to overcome nor the one who keep the commandment of God and the testimony of Jesus)? Fozman has suggested that she will be destroyed. What ridicule and an extravagant thought! How come that God preserves and protects the woman only to destroy the woman at the end of three years and a half?
(I -little Jayant)am just trying to respond to the two giants, Scott and Fozman, and aggresive Christina has just dropped in!)

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 00:58 am

I dont readily believe that Jesus is at all the child of this chapter. This woman is often referred to as the Bride of Christ. He cannot be the son & the husband of this woman. Second, Jesus did not say he would be reborn. He said he would come back in the clouds. THird, Jesus is not the only Shephard of the Old Testament. Other family members like Noah and Moses were also. They all had different jobs that led to the same goals and those males where all related. It is not impossible that a newer leader has been born to fight in the Army with Christ not as Christ in our near future that is related also. Also to assume this is Jesus and disinclude his mother Mary as his mother just simply says folks are trying to make an interpretation fit that doesn’t. You cant say this is Mary’s life so you can’t say this is Jesus. Besides, John did write this as a future warning, a vision of events to occur. To watch out for this woman. He said “There would be a sign in the sky.” There has been. August/September 1996. Bethula aka The Woman in Revelation 12. Yah, hasn’t been in Jerusalem since John of Patmos’ Time. Wont be back ever over J’lem like that again. Check it out. It was all over the newspapers. The crown of Twelve Stars proved she is from this very elect line of Abraham and most likely a prophet, bc in Isaiah 66 she knew her children b4 she conceived them. The sun she was dressed with was only because at that time she was still in labor. The sun was the boys birth sign, but he wasn’t out yet in that scene. That is why the light dresses her. It has nothing to do with her righteousnes. This was a sign in heaven of events unfolding on earth. She had to flee into the wilderness. That’s on Earth! She gives birth and roams the earth? That is 2 signs in this chapter that out right shows that she exists like a real person does. She fled after the baby was born that would still have been back in August/ Sept 1996. If this Woman was supposed to be a symbol of the Church then tell me what happened to the church or Israel 3 & 1/2 yrs later in Jan 2000 that we remember as more significant than the Y2k bug? There is nothing about the church as of 3 1/2 yrs after the sign bc the devil attacked her personally. Why? bc she has something important that she knows and must say to us, bc if it was just about the baby then satan would have left her alone then but didn’t. Satan persecuted her bc he just got his butt kicked out of heaven and he is about to have it stomped on by this womans son and she is the key to her sons uprising. Because her son will mean everything during the war and rule who is left after. Not by Satan’s authority anymore but God’s. Young baby that grew into a child by vs 13 should be about thirteen soon. The baby is still being raised by his mother. How else can he rule the world with a rod of iron? This cant be Eve either. She is even further back in history. Mary was Eve’s direct granddaughter. How much you wanna bet rev 12 is too. That’s prob why ya’ll keep getting past events confused with future events bc they remind you about something done b4. So this must be a parable right? About something past? No. It happened b4. It will happen again. Just knowing you are in the end times must make you realize that God has to send people to help us out b4, during and after the war like this woman, her children, and the two witnesses in chapter 11.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/28/2009 20:33 pm

Agreed on the heart condition implications of your comment.

Now, can you address the “if the rapture is at the 7th trump, then who experiences the seals and trumps that precede it” – theory? And while your at it, maybe a quick look at what those seals and trumps would be in order as well.

And, last but not least, who says there is only 1 tribulation? (There’s the tradition I spoke of earlier. . . . thinking there is only 1) I think I’ve asked that question before, but I preceive that you have been deliberately ignored many of my questions and points.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/28/2009 09:06 am

Fozman,

I understand “knee-jerk”. Been there; done that. No need to apologize but I hate to see a good apology wasted, so.., apology accepted!

A few quick points back at you for clarification. (I don’t have much time presently).

-There’s a good reason why the 144,000 as firstfruits has a “ring of truth” to it; see Rev 14:4

-You said; “I believe I reacted to your suggestion that Rev 12 occurs before Jesus begins to open the seals. In addition, I sense a bit of “pre-trib-rapture” in your voice.”

You sensed it correctly! I’m a pre-tribber all the way. Unashamedly so. Guilty as charged! And a believer in a pre-trib rapture that gets us into heaven BEFORE chapter 5 when Jesus receives the scroll. But don’t let your disdain for orthodoxy cloud your ability to hear something new; even if it happens to support orthodoxy (tradition). My embrace of a pre-trib rapture flies in the face of orthodoxy. Not that I’m proud of this by any means, but rather, orthodoxy did not LEAD me there. I came there by other means. Means such as John 3; John 16; Matthew 13, 24, 25, 26 Daniel 6, 12, Esther, Jude, Ruth, Revelation 2,3,5 and, of course, chapter 12 to name a few. I promise you, none of these means are orthodox but I have found them to confirm beyond any reasonable doubt a resurrection/rapture that occurs prior to the time known as the great tribulation (of the church)and prior to the breaking of the 7 seals.

The fatal flaw of orthodoxy isn’t the sequence of the rapture in respect to the tribulation, it’s the conditions PRECEDING the rapture. The broad-brush of orthodoxy says ALL Christians will go in the rapture while it does absolutely NOTHING to prepare believers for such an event. Tradition sees the rapture as an ESCAPE from the great tribulation but this is NOT ACCURATE. The threatening image of the Dragon positioned in front of the vulnerable, pregnant woman in Rev 12 is NOT a picture of the tribulation of the church. It is a picture of something that PRECEDES the tribulation; a diabolic circumstance that has placed the Dragon in a strategic position of power over the church with no (apparent) way of escape. Those, in the church, who seek to save their lives from this circumstance will lose it (in the tribulation that follows). Those who are willing to lose their lives in this circumstance will save it (in the rapture).

Orthodoxy only prepares Christians to be UNprepared for what is coming. A pre-trib rapture saves you from NOTHING if you have not prepared to be raptured. Our common salvation in Christ Jesus is only a guarantee that we will escape the full wrath of God. There are NO guarantees that we will escape the tribulation. How we respond to the test of Rev 12:4 will determine our immediate destiny:

“The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.”

It is only the Overcomers who will be “ready to face all that is about to happen and be able to stand before the Son of Man.” Lk 21:36

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/28/2009 05:24 am

Response #81 is for both Jayant and Scott. Sorry for it’s length, but I don’t have much time to wrap these things in little packages, if you know what I mean.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/27/2009 09:01 am

Jayant,

I believe you nailed it on the chronological question and Rev 4-5. Very well done; I couldn’t agree more or articulate it any better.

On another note, I don’t believe Israel can be the woman. The manchild she is pregnant with is the sold-out Christians that will be eventually raptured. They are neither formed in, or birthed out of Israel. Rather, they are formed in and birthed out of an end-time church. In addition, the woman figured in Rev 12:1 is a picture of Ishtar. That is what the apostle John would have recognized her as, because it was a common icon throughout his time; and the exact figure was found in all the pagan temples. In the New Testament she represents a compromised church . . . half betrothed to God, half indulgent with worldly lovers (governments, other religions, pagan based traditions, etc.) Her seed is from God (we are begotten/sired by God through the gospel . . . 1 Cor 4:15) and we struggle to come out of her and her worldly traditions. In the Old Testament, God likened the church (the nation of Israel) to the same image, the “queen of heaven” . . . Ishtar, Isis, Astarte, Oester, Astoreth, or whatever else she was called.

As far as the 144,000 as the first fruits? . . . . An interesting way to describe them. It has a “ring” of truth to it. Good thinking, and much on a parallel course with my response to you (#71) about them being of the true Jewish lineage, chosen by Jesus at his 2nd coming. I like that title of firstfruits.

Scott,

Thank you for the correction about tradition. Yes, much of what you mentioned concerning your views on Rev 12 is far from traditional . . . . I cannot begin to express how thrilling it is to find people who have the courage and anointing to challenge the status quo on what has become orthodox. In other words, thank you for stepping out. And, you have my appologies if I responded to a knee-jerk reaction …. making me the jerk (chuckle, chuckle). However, I’m so used to knocking heads with orthodox that when I bump into even the slightest measure of what I consider tradition, I react. I believe I reacted to your suggestion that Rev 12 occurs before Jesus begins to open the seals. In addition, I sense a bit of “pre-trib-rapture” in your voice (in your response to Jayant , #72). I consider those items to be traditional for numerous reasons. Such was my source of the knee-jerk.

Allow me to take this further. Your comment suggesting that I hang much of my reasoning on the last trump is spot on. Well, almost. Actually, I hang it on the best evidence provided by the top three rapture passages (outside the book of Revelation). And since the “last trump” is the best piece of prophetic evidence the Apostle Paul has provided us with, what better place to hang it on? Paul did.

I believe the top three passages would be as follows:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the (last trump) shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the (2nd) coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken . . . (3) Let no man deceive you . . . for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who . . . sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now, I try not to consciously defend a pre-trib, or mid-trip, or post-trib rapture. Defending in-house doctrines inevitably shackles a person to someone else’s opinions. Rather, I support and pursue a “what ever comes before the last trump will be experienced by the entire church”-trib-rapture. Why? Because the rapture is at the last trump.

Allow me one last chance to break this down.

I contend that the only facts provided as to when a “catching up of believers” will happen will occur “at the last trump, at the time of the shout of the archangel Michael, at the time of the revealing of the son of perdition, and after the great apostasy.” These are the only parameters articulated by the 3 most recognized rapture passages outside the book of Revelation. Everything else is pretty much conjecture, based on innuendo’s and traditions.

Here comes the math:

1). The two most recognized New Testament rapture passages are 1 Cor 15:51-53 and 1 Thess 4:16-17. When in chorus together, they provide serious and weighty evidence as to when the rapture occurs. BOTH passages reveal this event is to occur during one of the trumps of God. 1 Cor 15:52 further refines that time to be at the last trump.

2). There are 7 trumps of God identified in the book of Revelation. Obviously, the last trump would be the 7th trump. The last trump (7th trump) is preceded by 6 trumps; all seven make up the 7th seal that Jesus will open in heaven. NOTE: The 7th seal is preceded by 6 seals and will be opened after the 6 seals are opened. (no kidding).

3). All events described in the seals and trumps preceding the 7th trump will undoubtedly occur before the last trump. This should be self-evident.

4). Simple reasoning would insist, therefore, that all events described in the seals and trumps preceding the 7th trump will occur before the rapture. Why? Because the rapture (as clearly noted above) occurs at the last trump. The Apostle Paul says it will in 1 Cor 15:51-53.

5). The “math” should tell us that all Christians alive up-and-to the rapture will experience those events found in the seals and trumps that proceed the last trump.

There you have it . . . . so easy that even a caveman can do it.

Now, ask the question, “What are those events?” The seals and trumps preceding the 7th trump are articulated in Rev 6 through Rev 16. None of them are very pretty. They could easily be called awful tribulation, and may give credence to why the woman in Rev 12 is said (in the Greek) that she is in travail in her travailing (that is to say, a double portion of birth pangs).

As far as Rev 12 is concerned, I contend that it is an extension and continuation of Rev 11:15; and Rev 11:15 begins the last (7th) trump. And I believe pretty much how Jayant described the chronology of the remaining chapters. Please remember, the original penned manuscript by the apostle John had no chapter/verse breaks. It was one continuous letter. Thus, Rev 11 through Rev 16 were originally one continuous train of thought in John’s mind. And since Rev 11:15 is the last trump, simple reasoning would suggest that Rev 12 is also of the last trump.

Now take a closer look at 1 Thess 4:16. Note that the archangel Michael is acknowledged in both 1 Thess 4:16 and Rev 12:7. A “voice” is also found in both passages. That voice in Rev 12:10 is most probably Michael’s since he is the central “person” of said event. Hmmmmmmmmm? My point? These similar items are signature marks which tie these various passages together, demonstrating that they are speaking of the same thing. In other words, Rev 11:15 through Rev 12:7 is speaking of the same events as 1 Cor 15:51-53 and 1 Thess 4:16-17 . . . all hanging on the last trump, because that is what the Apostle Paul and Apostle John hung them on. I think I am in good company when I do the same.

I submit that the overwhelming number of parallel parameters in all three passages (1 Cor 15:51-53, 1 Thess 4:16-17, Rev 12) are solid evidence proving that Rev 12:5 is a major portion of the 7th trump in which the rapture occurs. And if it is of the 7th trump, then it makes no sense that the event occurs before Jesus begins to open the seals.

I would also bring to everyone’s attention to the third most recognized rapture passage, 2 Thess 2:1-4. The events articulated therein parallel Rev 12:4. Note how the “(2nd) appearing of Christ” and “our gathering unto him” stated in 2 Thess 2:1-4 occur after the great apostasy of believers. This great apostasy is pictured in Rev 12:4 as 1/3rd of the stars (believers) being cast to the earth by the 7th world government ruled by 10 (crowned) rulers (horns). There, too (in Rev 12:5), the catching up occurs after a great apostasy where 33.3% of the church allegedly backslides.

Thus, the evidence continues to mount that Rev 12 is an end-time, rapture-based passage which will unfold as the 7th (the last) trump. So it is impossible for it to precede the opening of the seals by our Lord. It comes at the end. In addition, whatever tremendous afflictions manifest before then will be witnessed and experienced by all of the church.

Like I inferred, I don’t like the pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib debates. Rather, I find the issues to be more of a “what ever comes before the last trump will be experienced by the entire church”-trib-rapture.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/27/2009 09:00 am

Jayant,

Wow, you’ve poured out a lot of thoughts! I do have a couple of comments (and I hope I can keep this relevant to our topic verse, 12:1).

I appreciate that you know my position on chapter 12. Your thoughts above have opened up entirely new areas of discussion and naturally, this will lead into new areas of disagreement. However, your reference to Titus 2:1 is timely and worthy!

Permit me first to express a few challenging questions:

Regarding chronology; I personally believe 1 through 11 are strictly such but let me focus on just a couple of points:

CHAPTER 5- Would you not agree that chapter 5 must precede chapter 6? How can Jesus break the seals in chapter 6 unless he first receives the scroll in chapter 5?

CHAPTER 7, 10 & 11- What is the basis for pulling these chapters out of chronology and making them parenthetical? They all clearly transpire within the framework of breaking the 7 seals including the 7 trumpets. How can you pick and choose which parts are parenthetic?

THE TWO WITNESSES- How is it that you place the 3 ½ year testimony of these two at the FIRST half of the last 7 years instead of the second half?

THE 7 VIALS- What is the basis for connecting the 7 vials with the 7th trumpet? Why not connect them with trumpets 1 thru 6 also?

Of course, you know I don’t agree with your conclusion regarding the identity of the woman in 12:1 and I assume your answers to the above will tend to support your conclusion. And, of course, I am eager to hear your response. However, it could take a lot of time and it will certainly spawn further discussion; perhaps too MUCH discussion to stay on this verse. If you want to shift your responses to the corresponding chapters in question, that might be a good idea.., but I’m content to stay here as long as you and the moderators are.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/26/2009 14:07 pm

Rev.4 and 5 are the introductory or foundational scenes of heavenly throne, but even then they are different. Rev. 4 talks about God as creator with a song of prise for that and there the son is not mentioned. the holy Spirit is mentioned as the seven burning lamps before the throne. In chapter 5 the holy Spirit is not there before the throne, but is sent to the earth, but the Son is introduced as the lamb of God. Here God is adored as the re-creator, as redeemer. The book of Revelation is all about the final conflict between God and His arch Enemy, the Satan. The wants to usurp the allegiance of men from God. God alone is worth as creator and redeemer and therefore he brings judgement on the Enemy and those who align with him.

Thus real chronology starts from Chapter 6 onwards. The seven seals are obviously chronological, but we can safely say that the all the judgemental things place within these seven seals. it means the seven seals includes the seven trumps and the seventh trump includes seven vials of wrath. The seven trumps and the seven vials are not concurrent but sequential, as the quantum of destruction is higher in the case of vials. It is one fourth in the case of trumps served as last warning, where it one third in the case of vials of wrath. We should remember that some chapter like chapter 7, chapter 10 to 12 etc are parenthetical. The other chapter are extension of some facts earlier stated ( for example the destruction of Babylon stated in chapter 16, at the time of the seventh vial is further described full in chapter 18 etc. Two women and two cities are there. Apostate church as the whore of chapter 17 is the Babylon 0f Chapter 18 and the True Church as the bride of Christin Chapter 19 is the New Jerusalem in 21 and 22.Thus we cannot think of Revelation in full chronological order from chapter 1 to 22 or even 4 to 11.

The Antichrist is to break the covenant in the middle of the seventeenth week. So before that there is period of 3- 1/2 years when the two witnesses are witnessing. Towards the end of the middle of the week the Antichrist kills them and then come the time of seven trumps and vials as part of the seventh seal.It is the second half of the week. The rapture takes place in Revelation 14:14-16.

The church consists of believers of both the Israel and and the Gentile. Israel has also God’s plan in this later time. Ultimately the new Jerusalem has Apostles as its foundation and the twelve patriarchs of Jews. One fold and one shepherd realized at last.

I believe the woman of Rev. 12 is the Israelite Nation and 1,44,000 are the first fruits of that nation. The rest of the Jews to be saved and amalgamated in the church are the bumper crop. They are all over comers as stated in Rev. 22:7 This is my understanding of Revelation. Any comment? (Titus 2:1)

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/26/2009 08:32 am

Fozman,

I’m not giving you tradition. Tradition does not acknowledge Rev 12 as a rapture text. Tradition does not say that the church goes through the Tribulation. Tradition does not say that Rev 1-11 is chronological. Tradition does not say that only certain Christians will rule and reign with Christ.

You talk about “timeline indicators” but then you reject one of the most obvious ones; apparently because it does not fit your interpretation. Either you must conclude Revelation 4-11 is not chronological or you must come up with some meaningless explanation for just who the martyred souls in Chapter 6 are. Obvioulsy, you have chosen the latter.

Regarding the Satanic possession of antichrist, you have rightly attacked my logic.., my admittedly silly logic. But the point of my silly logic is to show that your logic is just as silly. You have deconstructed my point quite well but you failed to establish your own. (But your assumption that I think antichrist must be satan-possessed all of his adult life is a bit off-the-wall. No, antichrist will be quite evil all by himself before Satan takes possession of him. Judas managed this quite well also).

Your point about the “last trump” in 1 Cor 15 seems a bit presumptous to me. It also seems like you hang an awful lot on equating the “last trump” that Paul mentions with the seventh “trump” of the 7th seal. And, of course, it is a rapture verse.., one of the best! We evidently just disagree on the timing.(Here’s a little food for thought: where does it suggest any place in the book of Revelation that the 7 Trumpets that are blown in heaven are ever heard anywhere on the earth? Just curious).

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/25/2009 22:30 pm

Scott,
In your response to Jayant you are again teaching from tradition. I thought it clearly stated in 1 Cor 15:52-53 that the rapture is at the last trump. Please review posting #69 that I sent. I submitted this as evidence to that end. Or are we to ignore the two scriptural proof texts I submitted? Of course, if you are going to ignore Paul’s word, or chose not to consider such a weighty piece of evidence, then I guess we are done here. Then again, you can prove to me that in some weird Greek way, the words “last trump” don’t exist in 1 Cor 15:52-53, or that this is not a rapture verse to begin with. I’m correctable . . . . not just through traditions.

If we ignore even one relevant verse, then our doctrines are compromised.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:20 pm

Posting #75 is in response to Scott

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:09 pm

And yet Judas was Satan possessed when he betrayed the Lord (John 13:27). Now, how could Satan do that? Would he have to be in two places at once? Or, maybe Satan can be on earth when he chooses (as he was with Judas, Adam & Eve, his tempting of Jesus). Satan obviously has access to the earthly realm. So, why is it so difficult for someone to imagine Satan inspiring anti-X until the time when Satan is removed from heaven? And would someone show me scripture where it says (verbatim) that the anti-X is completely and permanently Satan-possessed . . . as opposed any other many other contingencies that could be suggested? Here’s one possibility. Satan inspires the anti-X with some of his hench-man (demons coming with his authority) until this alleged permanent possession which tradition speaks of. (I can provide scriptural evidence where an angel possessed by God was only seen as God . . . . the presence of the angel not even acknowledge. Assuming the spirit realm works the same for both sides, this would be an example supporting my suggestions).
My point? Satan doesn’t have to be in two places at one time. My scenario never suggested that.
Who knows how this works? Look, I would have no problem following your “logic”, Scott, accept you have provided no evidence (and no one can) that your assumptions are the reality of the spirit realm. I believe you are stuck on traditional thought, which is often void of scriptural support.
No, Scott, I believe I’m tracking your argument perfectly. And it appears you are suggesting parameters that neither you nor I can substantiate . . . they are assumptions. . . . as follows:
1. Anti-X must be Satan possessed all of his adult life (possibly all his life), or at least when he takes power.
2. Anti-X cannot be demonic filled or inspired until that point (which I suspect other Satanists are)
3. The Anti-X is keeping him alive after the death wound.
I do not subscribe to these assumptions, because they are not supported by scripture and verse. They are founded on traditions.
As far as your comments, I ask, “Who says that if the Satan later leaves a revived anti-X man, the man dies? Scripture only supports that fact that the anti-x is HEALED (Rev 13:3,12). Scripture does not state, reveal, or even imply that the ant-X becomes some form of an empty shell, the body being a form of a perverted temple for the devil. For that matter, why even ask that question? You state, “ . . . logic says if Satan leaves his body, antichrist would die again etc.” Scott, logic wouldn’t waste the time to examine such a scenario, because such an alleged event is never raised in for debate. This is only a nice distraction. The question is irrelevant and completely unnecessary.
I still contest that my scenario is quite believable and quite plausible. And I will continue to wait for some solid, distraction-free scriptural evidence to challenge it. Unfortunately, my scenario will not satisfy “drive-by” assumptions. So if you can substantiate your logic with scripture and verse (eg: demonstrate to me that the ant-X is Satan possessed before he claims to be God) then you will have my attention. However, there is no scripture evidence to that end; and any assumptions suggesting the same are not factual, nor provable, nor even probable.
As for Rev 7 . . . People assume that this is speaking of “THE Great Tribulation” and they assume that the term “THE Great Tribulation” is a scriptural term. Both are incorrect. The term “The Great Tribulation” is church made, not scriptural stated. (I’ve ran the term “the-great-tribulation” through my bible software search engine and had “No Results” for my efforts.) The breakdown of the Greek is “those who came out of great persecution/affliction.” Most bible translations leave out the imperative “THE” which would suggest that it is not referring to “THE” great tribulation, if there was such a specific identifiable title to be applied in the first place. There are, and have been many great afflictions of which the body of Christ have suffered. That is to say, Xian history is replete with millions upon millions of martyrs. They obviously will never suffer through “THE great affliction” because they have already been escorted to the heavenly realm, where (I would assume) they are doing exactly what Rev 7:9-17 is describing. Thus, I contend that Rev 7 is speaking of former martyrs who have washed their robes with the blood of X. And until someone can demonstrate to me that Rev 7:14 is speaking of those specifically destroyed in and after the 3-1\2 years, I remain firm on my chronology which you suggest is out of context.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:08 pm

Please pardon my double-post below. I must’ve bumped the Enter key.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:42 pm

Jayant,

Permit me to respond to your post.

“So my question: How do you relate the Overcomers (Man child of Rev.12) and the 1,44,000 Of Rev. 7 and 14? Are they the two different groups? If yes, what are they? What is the biblical basis for that distinction?”

(Before considering my words, it is imperative to recognize that chapters 4-11 are chronological. If this cannot be agreed upon, then it must be concluded that Jesus himself is the author of confusion because no realistic interpretation of these chapters would be possible otherwise).

The Overcomers (manchild) of chapter 12 are caught up to heaven in the Rapture even before Jesus takes the scroll out of the hand of God as recorded in chapter 5. These saints are taken up not so much as a rescue from the imminent Tribulation, but from an intractable, dangerous situation that is severly testing the faithful BEFORE the Tribulation occurs. But they are also taken up as the new ruling class with Jesus in the heavenlies. (This is why there is a war in heaven).

The saints who must immediately go through the Tribulation after the rapture will be purified by their suffering for Christ. (These are the 5 virgins in the parable who did not have sufficient oil). They will be resurrected at the end of the 3 1/2 year Tribulation and caught up to heaven to be priests unto God. This is recorded in chapter 7 and it MARKS THE END OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION which coincidentally, marks the END of the Age of Grace. What immediately follows is the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. The last 7 years before Christ returns. It is the resumption of God’s covenant dealings with Israel and it is marked by the sealing of the 144,000 Jews who are the firstfruits of the coming kingdom to Israel. Remember, Israel is an EARTHLY kingdom and these 144,000 Jews must survive the Wrath of God for 7 horrible years and remain on the earth to welcome Christ when he comes to reign. Much more can be said about this. (Note: the 144,000 in chapter 14 are the same Jews as in chapter 7).

The key component in this is the distinguishing break between the 6th and 7th seals. Seal 1-6 is judgment mixed with mercy. Thousands if not millions get saved at this time. In otherwords; grace is still available to repent.

However, the silence that takes place in heaven for a half hour is a sobering prelude to the breaking of the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets. The plagues and woes that follow are nothing less than God’s unrestrained wrath. It cannot be stopped nor diminished except by God himself. It is the time of vengeance. This COULD NOT happen during the age of grace which ended with the 6th seal. There is no record of anyone being saved at this time. The 144,000 who must go through this period could not do so without the protective seal of God. This is the time when Jesus says; “But for the sake of the elect (the 144,00), those days will be shortened.”

In a nutshell, the biblical basis for the distinction between the Overcomers and the 144,000 (in my opinion), is that one group has been prepared to rule and reign with Christ from the heavens (via the New Jerusalem). The other group has been prepared to rule and reign with Christ on earth from Jerusalem in Israel.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:41 pm

Jayant,

Permit me to respond to your post.

“So my question: How do you relate the Overcomers (Man child of Rev.12) and the 1,44,000 Of Rev. 7 and 14? Are they the two different groups? If yes, what are they? What is the biblical basis for that distinction?”

(Before considering my words, it is imperative to recognize that chapters 4-11 are chronological. If this cannot be agreed upon, then it must be concluded that Jesus himself is the author of confusion because no realistic interpretation of these chapters would be possible otherwise).

The Overcomers (manchild) of chapter 12 are caught up to heaven in the Rapture even before Jesus takes the scroll out of the hand of God as recorded in chapter 5. These saints are taken up not so much as a rescue from the imminent Tribulation, but from an intractable, dangerous situation that is severly testing the faithful

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:07 pm

Jayant,
My guess (and truly this can only be a guess due to the lack of scriptural evidence to supplement a definitive answer) is that the two groups are different, as if that makes any difference in the grand scheme of things.
I’ll throw a couple of brain teasers out.
I assume the 144,000 are “true Jews” . . . . those of the linage of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob (those who went through the wilderness with Moses). I think this is a safe guess since the passages specifically identifies the 144,000 as being the lineage of Jacob (Israel). This is in stark contrast with the Ashkenazi Jews who MAY equate to Rev 2:9 and 3:9 . . . “which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie.” The later are the offspring of Ashkenaz, the son of Gomar, the son of Japeth, the son of Noah (Gen 10:1-3). The Ashkenazi Jews came out of Russian/Turkey, and make up the majority of those calling themselves Jews today.
Now, only the true Jews had (and have) a covenant with God. The Ashkenazi Jews did not. They only observe & somewhat practice Judaism (in a much perverted form). Thus, they claim to be Jewish as the result. However, I believe they are not heirs to the aforementioned covenant, just as I assume I would not for the same reason. (My only partaking in the covenant promise is through my brother, the lion of the tribe of Judah . . . . because I was legally graphed into the promises to Abraham, Moses, and our Messiah through my acceptance of our Lord’s sacrifice for my sins.)
If I see things correctly, then when Jesus returns, he will be fulfilling that former covenant with the children of Israel . . . . not with Gentiles who claim the blood of Christ. I assume that no one is raptured unless they have received Christ and are the sold-out-dedicated-“bride-Christians” alluded to throughout the New Testament. Thus, even true Jews will not be raptured. If the “bride-Christians” are raptured, and the backslidden half-baked Christians are purged through the 3-1/2 year persecution of the anti-X, then who is left physically on earth to war with Jesus at his return? Yes, there will be those that will return with Jesus . . . . but what of that original covenant with the children of God . . . the true Jews? I assume they have to be included with the events of the Messiah’s return. After all, they are one of the main reasons for his return.
So I speculate and suggest (and I mean this is a total exercise in speculation) that 144,000 true Jews will be marked by Jesus at his return. They will see him who they (who we all) have pierced, and accept him as Messiah. They will come into the service of the Lord along with those who return with Jesus at his 2nd coming. Both Old Testament and New Testament covenant promises are then fulfilled. What part they play in Armegeddon or Christ establishing his thrown is only known by God.
But, that is all a lot of conjecture on my part. Guess we’ll know who’s who when we see it for the first time. In other words, . . . . my response is nothing more than food for thought.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 13:53 pm

Fozman,

Perhaps you’ve misunderstood my point. I’m simply saying that your scenario is highly unbelievable because by logic, antichrist cannot be possessed by Satan until Satan is atleast cast down to the earth (he cannot be in two places at the same time; and if it requires the satanic possession of antichrist’s body in order to “resurrect” him back to life, logic says if Satan leaves his body, antichrist would die again etc. Of course, this gets a bit silly.

I say all that to say it is highly unbelievable that the man antichrist is NOT possessed by Satan during the opening of the first 6 seals.

Permit me to point out yet another flaw I perceive in your position. If you concur that the catching up of the manchild is the Rapture, then I imagine you must view the last part of Ch 12 as the 3 1/2 year persecution of the Tribulation saints. If this is your position, then you are placing the Tribulation during the time of the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal (the very end of Daniel’s 70th week). However, Revelation 7 has these same Tribulation saints safely in heaven before the 7th seal is even broken. It seems to me, that in order to justify this, you must destroy the clear chronology of the chapters 4-11. Is this what you have done?

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 13:50 pm

Scott,
The question may be, “When is anti-X revealed, and when is he completely Satan-possessed?” Are they the same event? In other words, who say’s the anti-X has to be completely Satan-possessed prior to Satan being cast to the earth? And who say’s the anti-X has to be completely Satan-possessed prior to being revealed as the man of sin? There is no requirement of either stated anywhere in scripture. But the facts be known, the revealing may be Rev 13:4-7 “And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast?” 2 Thess 2:3 remains viable. It parallels Rev 12:4 where the 1/3 of the saints (stars) are struck down (fall away); after which Satan is cast to the earth from his war with Michael; after which the man of sin is revealed. There is no discrepancy with what I have suggested, as I believe you are implying.
If Rev 13:4-7 is the revealing, then the thesis that Rev 12 is of the 7th seal remains correct. If this is not the revealing, but the revealing comes later (when the remaining church finally figures out that this is the anti-X), then Rev 12 being of the 7th seal still holds true, and all the more . . . . because both contingencies occur after the casting of Satan out of heaven. Nothing you have suggested provides evidence to the contrary . . . . or at least, I’m at a loss to see it.
Without more solid scriptural evidence, my critique remains the same. Rev 12 is the 7th trump, and in your own words, Rev 12:5 = the rapture . . . . which I believe is absolutely correct. And, I believe it (that the 7th trump = the rapture) parallels 1 Cor 15:52-53 and 1 Thess 4:16-17 because it uses that exact language; the first passage actually equateing the event of the passage to “the last trump”, which is what I was doing.
1 Cor 15:52-53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Could it be that the anti-X does not become completely Satan-possessed until he is “risen” from his fatal wound? The theory is quite plausible and tracks with a sense of reality. Look at it this way: Something gets this guy to rise off his death bed. If so, then everything I’ve suggested (as far as Rev 12 = 7th trump) is accurate.
Something to think about.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 13:14 pm

Well, Fozman, I should keep asking questions to learn more and more. It seems John could have in mind the Rome with its seven hills. But it is opposed that John is talking about mountains and not hills. Well, as you say, Washington DC is also on hills! We must have a city that is built on mountains. whatever it may be, the history says that the Two brothers has selected the site of the seven hills to build Rome. It is unlikely that John had in his mind Washington DC or other cities for that matter.

So my question: How do you relate the Overcomers (Man child of Rev.12) and the 1,44,000 Of Rev. 7 and 14? Are they the two different groups? If yes, what are they? What is the biblical basis for that distinction?

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 10:40 am

There was a revelation and and a great sign in heaven. The word appeared could be used for the word revelation. There was a revelation in heaven and there was a great sign in heaven. Something appeared to this women who once did not have the moon under her feet and the sun as clothing. There was a revelation. The Sun was her clothing meaning that she was clothed by the most powereful element which we know today to be God. The moon was under her feet meaning this, the moon is a reflection of the sun, it reflects the suns light so as with this woman her feet or her walk with God or the sun reflects the light. Her walk with God reflects God in her walk. The moon under her feet reflects the sun which the moon get its light. The light that was under her feet is reflecting God. The woman could also be the church because the church was born through Christ. A woman is used in this picture as pregnant-could symbolized the birth of the Church. It could also be the birth of Christ. The crown of twelve stars symbolizes royalty. The crown of 12 stars symbolizes a crown of royalty and a crown of Light. 12 could also symbolize the 12 apostles which is what Christ used to start the Church. The beginning was when Peter spoke up in the book of acts. In Acts 2:14 is says that Peter stood up with the Eleven which added is 12. So again this can be the start of Christ Church. It is a Church that is clothed by God(Sun), it is a church with the moon under it’s feet(reflection of light), it is a Church that has a crown of 12 stars(Royalty, light and aided by a greater power which is the sun and with the foundation of the Apostles(Acts 2:42 Apostles’ teaching). All together Revelation 12:1 has very deep meaning and is heart felt.

By Anjo (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 23:59 pm

I have a little time to write so please consider a couple of points:

The events of Revelation 12 do NOT occur at the 7th Trumpet. In order to believe this, one would have to believe that the man, antichrist, is not revealed as the man of sin (2Thes 2:3) until AFTER seals #1-7 are already broken. Of course, this would be crazy to think that antichrist doesn’t show up until most of the action is over.

Fozman talks about “timeline identifiers”. Well, here’s one. How does Satan take up residence in the body of a human being if he is still occupying his place of authority in the heavens? In other words, if Satan is busy fighting a war in heaven against Michael during the breaking of the 7th seal how can he possibly reign as a human being on the earth during seals #1-6?

Revelation 12 is the fulfillment of 2 Thes 2:3. When Satan is cast out of heaven and down to earth, he enters the body of the man who has already been on the scene for quite awhile. A man who will suffer a mortal wound yet “miraculously” come back to life when Satan enters him. Revelation 12 is nothing less than an amazing picture of the Rapture of the church to the position of authority that Satan currently posseses. It is at once, the de-throning of Satan and the en-throning of the saints. The Book of Esther and the festival of Purim portray this perfectly in type. Daniel 6 does so as well.

Hence, Revelation 12 is the PRELUDE to the breaking of the seals, not the end of it.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 18:22 pm

Jason,

Israel is not the woman of Rev 12. That is impossible. The nation of Israel that “produced” our Messiah, and the same “Israel” that the Apostle John lived through was destroyed in 70 AD. (Israel ceased being a nation.) John penned the words, “and one is” (Rev 17: 9-10) around 96 AD . . . give or take a decade. Thus, the “Israel” you speak of existed during the 6th head, not the 7th. Rev 12 puts the timeline of events into the 7th head.

Allow me to state it this way. The time of the 10 horns who will rule with the beast, the time of the 7 headed dragon, the time of the beast who “was, and is not, (who) is the eighth, and is of the seventh” are specific timeline identifiers. There is only one timeline that will accommodate the chorus of all these figures (working together) and their contribution to world events. The timeline of Revelation 12 is the last trump. The last trump is the 7th trump of the 7th seal that Jesus will open. All these trumps and seals will be fulfilled in the future, because Jesus opening the 7 seals (which include the 7 trumps) are all future events; at least from the perspective of the Apostle John and when he penned the book of Revelation. In other words, the 7 seals (the 7th seal/trump defining the 10 horns who will rule with the beast, the 7 headed dragon, & the beast) are not 1st - century pre-apostolic or post-apostolic church events. And since Jesus, Mary, and the “Israel” of which Mary & Jesus proceeded from, existed during the 6th head (as John reveals above . . . Rev 17:10), then Jesus, Mary, and “Israel” cannot be the representation of either the woman or the manchild of Revelation 12.

Focus on what we do know (those timeline identifiers), and the mystery of the figures of Rev 12 will be made manifest. But people have to first think things through to their logical conclusions . . . . not to their traditional conclusions.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 12:04 pm

If I may chime in again . . . .

Jayant, great questions. Keep them coming!

First, there are many other cities built on 7 mountains, not just the Vatican. Washington DC is one of them, although the mountains are more like hills. I believe St. Petersburg is, too. Many of the world’s capitols are. And if one were to examine their architectural layout, they are nearly identical . . . . possibly suggesting a “connection” on a perverted spiritual level. Wash DC is the exact 180 degree replica of Vatican City when you align the Capitol, the obelisk and the Pentagon. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm? But yes, I believe the “great city” of Rev 17 & 18 to be Rome and her religion. She is a city and a country unto herself. But what of the non-Roman based Xian churches which are half baked and fully loaded with the doctrines, traditions, and customs formed in the “Mother Church?” How are they “typed” in the book of Revelation? I believe she is the woman of Rev 12, Rome being the Harlot of Rev 17.

As for why the woman of Rev 12 is given protection . . . . who says she is? Yes, there’s that 3-1/2 years thing. Then what? I cannot prove it, but I believe her destruction will be made after that time. In, other words, the compromised church will be given 3-1/2 years to be purged, tested & tried, and matured through persecution; after which time she will be martyred. God did this multiple times to the Old Testament church which we call the children of Israel. He knows how to get our attention, and because of this mercy & grace, he will make every attempt . . . . sometimes doing it in stages, escalating things if need be. Take note of Rev 18:4. “Come out of her my people.” And what are His people doing in her in the first place? Yet, He calls them “His people” giving warning and sending chastisement where needed to motivate them to respond.

As stated, I believe the organized “Corporate” Roman-based universal church to be the Harlot of Rev 17. That is where your seven mountains can be found . . . . although not in the text of scripture. In other words, the city and its corporate head that sits between these mountains is the Mother of Harlots (she has claimed to be the mother church all her existence). She is a “Mystery” (her main doctrines are baselined on “It’s a mystery) and she is Babylon the great (most of her traditions and holy days are baselined on the same patterns of Babylonian/Roman religions). Coincidentally, her favorite color as purple & Scarlot (Rev 17:4-5). Now, I could spend weeks unfolding this for people. Unfortunately, it usually only produces a lot of upset people.

But as for the timeline of Rev 12, it must center on the one solid piece of evidence revealed by the Apostle John . . . . one (head) is. That piece of info should be undeniable. Using that as a center point and working back, the world empires that affected Israel are the ones I listed. . . . which happen to be pretty much accepted by most bible scholars. And for what its worth, who cares who the first five are that had fallen? The important matter is who is the 6th and 7th (and the 8th which is of the 7th)? And how will that affect us? (And who says that Daniel’s vision has to be identical to John’s)

Discerning Rev 12 will affect us by warning us of the events that will test both the church, the hidden church, the apostate church, and the world. So, when these events begin to manifest, they will be a clarion call to all that the word of God is true, accurate, and inspired by God. Interpreted correctly, Rev 12 may insulate many from the disillusionment that often blind-sides “Laodecia Christians.”

Rev 12 is a warning. A 1/3rd of the angels (stars) are not cast down by the tail of the beast. Rather, it is a 1/3rd of the church that is cast down. I invite you to watch the following YouTube presentation demonstrating this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nvwM1GDErg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE_QlOoi284

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 11:42 am

This has nothing at all to do with the woman seen here. At most you can demonstrate a power struggle between good and evil here. But looking for understanding a woman of God by concentrating on the evil while dismissing her importance is odd. This chapter is here to give hope in the presence of evil and to bear witness of God’s grace even in the midst of tyranny. Whatever is being discussed currently here should go under the appropriate place. It’s just getting to far away from logic and the actual subject.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 06:49 am

But cmt. 61 is about REV 17, The woman in Rev 12 is Israel.

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 04:32 am

Comparing Scripture with Scripture, to say that ROME is not the city on 7 hills is to commit intellectual suicide.

AT JOHN’S TIME THIS WAS ROME! “the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth (present tense) over the kings of the earth.” (Re 17:18)

“…The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman SITTETH (present tense).” (Re 17:9)

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 04:31 am

Further to my last post:

According to you, in Rev.12,
- the woman is the visible Church;
- the man child indicates those of the overcomers;
- there are rest of her children (Rev.12:17)
Again,
-the overcomers are taken up to the throne;
-and the remnant children are persecuted,
-and the woman is taken to the wilderness.
Then who is that woman that is given protection in the wilderness and preserved? Is she the apostate church? But why should the apostate church be given protection? In fact, it is going to be destroyed as per Rev. 17!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 04:30 am

Yes, Scott, I know that you hold the same position as does Fozman. Is there any other city built on seven mountains? Do we have to contend for the words mountains and hills? But I raise the questions that come to my mind.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 04:15 am

Jayant,

I’m in agreement with Fozman on this point. Without going into detail, Rome was built on 7 hills, not mountains. Besides, “mountains” in this context refers to empires or kingdoms. This is plainly evident in the text. It is a reference to the 6 kingdoms that have ruled the world and the 7th is yet to come (antichrist).

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 04:02 am

Reference post # 56:

If we take note of Rev. 17:9 and 18, it is clear that the woman in Rev. 17 has to do with the great city that is situated on the seven mountains and that city is Rome. It is a fact that Rome was built on seven mountains. If this is so, then what the kingdom of Assyria or Egypt have to do with the seven kings? Are we not supposed to see those of the kings that ruled from Rome? The prophetic dream of the huge image in Daniel 2 talks about the ten fingers of the feet and they are in sequence to the fourth kingdom of Rome!Thus the ten kingdoms have to do with the fourth kingdom of Rome. Why do you therefore list Assyria or Egypt as of the seven kingdoms? Is it also a guess? Daniel doesn’t speak anything about the kingdom of Assyria.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/22/2009 15:51 pm

The key to unlocking the meaning of Revelation 12 is not by guessing who the woman and manchild are. Rather, it is by knowing who and what the 7 headed dragon and 10 horns are (Rev 12:3). Scriptures specifically identifies the latter two. One is an end-time world government system; the other is the men who will run it. Knowing who and what they are will clearly define the timeline in which the surrounding events of Revelation 12 will unfold.

Rev 17: 12 And the ten horns. . . are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

This begs the question, “When does the beast of Revelation rule?” This will in turn tell us when these 10 rulers (10 horns) will rule. Certainly, neither the anti-X, nor these 10 rulers ruled together at the birth or resurrection of Christ.

Rev 17: 9,10 . . . The seven heads are seven mountains . . . (10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-persia, Greece), and one is (the 6th = Rome at the time of John), and the other (the 7th = the anti-X kingdom ) is not yet come .

Again, there is a question to be asked, “When does the 7 headed, 10 horned dragon come against the nation of Israel?” If John wrote Revelations during the 6th head, when is the 7th head? And again, certainly not at the birth or resurrection of Christ.

The time of the 10 horns, the time of the 7 headed dragon, and the time when Satan is finally cast upon the earth are time identifiers of the events in question. There is only one timeline that will accommodate all those events. The timeline of Revelation 12 is that of the last trump, the 7th trump of the 7th seal spoken of through Revelations. These are end-time events. They are not first century pre-apostolic or post-apostolic church events.

The timeline involving the 10 horns and the 7 headed dragon define the “woman” and the “manchild” as someone or something other than Jesus, Mary, and/or Israel.

There is only one explanation. That explanation is when dedicated, sold-out Christians are equated as the manchild and an end-time compromised church is equated as the woman of Rev 12:1. These dedicated, sold-out Christians will overcome a 7 headed, one-world government, and be changed in the twinkling of an eye into the manchild company (1 Cor 15:52) at the last trump to be caught up to God and to His thrown. They will rule and reign with Jesus with a rod of iron (Rev 2:26-28). The woman (compromised Xians) will be “tried in THE fire” (Rev 318) through persecution from the anti-X (Dan 7:24-26) and eventually martyred after 3.5 years.

Jesus cannot be the manchild of Rev 12:5. (Although, he is the reason for the manchild.)

Mary and/or Israel are not the “woman” of Rev 12. NOTE: In John’s day, the image described in Rev 12:1 was well known & recognized. She could be found in most pagan temples. John knew her to be Ishtar; the mother goddess. God likened the nation of Israel to the same in the Old Testament when Israel backslide and became a harlot/compromised church . . . a church who was in bed with every political power, and engaged in every worldly desire . . . a church only partially betrothed to God. Her child (the manchild) may be from the seed of God, but there will be the day where he (the manchild) can no longer tolerate to remain in her. He will come out of the church and be united with Christ as his bride.

This means that the “stars” that are cast to the earth (Rev 12:4) are Christians who once stood in heavenly places (figuratively speaking)with Jesus, backsliding and falling away, as prophesied in 2 Thess 2:3 . . .

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (1/3rd of the stars — Rev 12:4), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

This is a difficult thing . . . but it’s the only explanation that harmonizes all the parameters and all scriptures associated with this passage.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/14/2009 10:31 am

And Jayant regarding your last post: Yes it says the anti christ is a man. It also plainly says Revelation 12 is a woman.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/9/2009 22:46 pm

Scott, Despite our opinions of who or what this is I still might be able to help you with the children issue. Theory: Man Child means man of the house. Meaning he was a firstborn son already born to a mother without a father for the child. Considering the 1260 days of peace then all the traveling she does later it is feasible to assume that the other children came later during her trials with Satan.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/9/2009 22:40 pm

Just a few more thoughts regarding the identity of the woman and the man-child:

If the man-child is Jesus, as so many claim, consider the problem with 12:17 for a few moments. The text says that the siblings of the man-child are hunted down by the Dragon. Everything within the context of chapter 12 leads us to believe these siblings were already alive when the man-child was born. (When does the Woman have time to get pregnant again and bring forth more children when she has been cast into the wilderness and is immediately hunted like an animal)? And if these siblings existed BEFORE Jesus was born, the bulk of the chapter is meaningless to any end-time revelation of Jesus Christ.

But, just suppose they WERE born after Jesus. That means that Jesus and his siblings all had the same MOTHER. Now, this would really be a stretch of faith to believe. Nowhere in the scripture is there any suggestion that the spiritual brethren of Jesus are born of the same mother. However, there are numerous places that tell us that we have the same FATHER. Why then, wasn’t it a MAN arrayed in light and standing on the moon??

Perhaps the man-child simply isn’t Jesus.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/9/2009 18:29 pm

Reference Post# 49:

We beleive the Anti-Christ to be a real person:

(a) Rev. 13;18 says “for it is the number of a man” Kindly mark the words “a man’.

(b)2 Thess. 2:3 describes him as “The man of sin” and “the son of perdition”

Of course, 1 John 4:3 tells us about the spirit of antichrist.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/30/2009 07:33 am

Waterboy’s mom would say that too.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/30/2009 02:23 am

Hey, for that matter, why couldn’t the anti-Christ be a woman? You know I always pictured the devil as a female.

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/29/2009 20:37 pm

Alright Jayant…Quick question.. The anti-Christ is spoken of metaphorically too but we understand him to be a real person..
This is all prophecy in a book referring to the future.. Why can’t she be real if the guy in the next chapter is. She can be.. Respectfully.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/29/2009 19:49 pm

Thank you Christina for your kind words.

My understanding about Revelation 12 is given in my post #15. It is better not to be dogmatic, but we should continue to study the prophesy with an open mind.We now see dimly in the mirror. A time will come when everything will be crystal clear.

You are a sister in Christ and with a name Christina. I would urge you as your brother in christ to be reconciled with Scott. Just forgive and forget.
God bless you!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/29/2009 14:23 pm

Jayant,

I didn’t know Watchman Nee views the woman as the church. I will have to find his writings and investigate more!

You said:
“I am still not convinced that God has no further dealing with Israel.”

Does Watchman Nee hold this view?? I certainly don’t. God has great plans for Israel in these last days and the church better wake-up to them.

Regarding Rev 2:26-27, it is Jesus himself who quotes Psalm 2:9 when he says that the saints who overcome will rule with an iron rod. It is Jesus himself that gives John the vision of the sun-clad Woman. At the very least, there is as much possibility that Rev. 12:5 IS referring to the overcomers as it is to Jesus.

You also said:
“So if some holds that the woman of Chpater 12 is Israel and the man child is the Lord Jesus,one cannot rule out that possibility altogether.”

But it seems you have overlooked a very important point in all of this. When God gives a symbolic vision to one of his chosen prophets; he does NOT co-mingle the literal and the figurative. If he did, who could possibly know which symbol should be interpreted as literal and which should be figurative?

For instance, you say the man-child “is a singular personage”. How do you know this? If the woman is symbolic then ALL of the elements in the vision are symbolic. As stated previously, a symbolic woman does not give birth to a literal man without turning the prophetic word on its ear! How do we know it isn’t the REVERSE?? Perhaps it’s the WOMAN who is literal and the man-child is symbolic! Do you not see how there can never be clarity unless we abide by the rules of interpretation that have been established according to the ancient God-given prophecies that have ALREADY been fulfilled?

Do not be quick to dismiss this point! It is critical. God is consistant and he is not the author of confusion. Without this rule as a guiding rudder, anyone’s interpretation (guess) is as good as another’s and we will always be adrift carrying a measure of doubt.

Also remember, symbolic prophecy is never given to re-state history. It serves no purpose and does not advance our understanding. What good does it do to restate that Jesus was born in Israel? How does this knowledge help us in interpreting the vision? It doesn’t! But God’s established pattern is always to ADD detail to enhance understanding. This rule is firmly established throughout the visions of Daniel.

It seems that many Christians have trouble with the idea that the saints “will judge the world” and “angels”. Yet, it is a theme that comes up over and over. Read psalm 149 for instance. What does it mean to Sit with Jesus “on His throne” if it does not include sharing in the AUTHORITY of that throne? When the disciples were arguing who would be on Jesus’ right and who would be on his left, they WERE RIGHT to think they would share in Jesus authority. The Lord did not rebuke them for thinking this; he rebuked them for having the wrong idea how to administer power.

The overcomers are the ones who are prepared for all this.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/29/2009 05:48 am

Exactly my point… If the Jews are to be redeemed in the end times..a single mother may be out there like this woman to lead them home in the last days.. The moon is her symbol.. the sun is her little boy(I think).. He leads the Army of the Lord in Armageddon..She dies to break the curse.
And the moon becomes as blood and the sun becomes as black as sackclothe(mourning)and whether or not i prove to be wrong didn’t mean I couldn’t plead a really good case. If not a better one than this being someone from the past or no one at all. I think the star constellation Bethula above Israel in 1996 proved his birth just like a star was there for jesus and moses. And thanks Jayant for at least being respectful of my opinion while sharing your own bc no one will know anyway til the end..Until we do I will keep my peace with all from now on..God’s speed brother.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/28/2009 16:14 pm

What is the Church after all? It is the one new man, according to the Eph.2: , the enmity is done away with, by bringing the non-Israelite Gentile within one fold. Thus the Church has in it both Jews and Gentile. God strated with Jews in the book of Apostle. Since the Jews harden their hearts, God turned to the Gentile, setting aside for a time being the Jews and continuing with the Gentile. But in the end time )Israel will also return to the Lord in faith. They will then be more prominent in the Church, bringing blessings for the whole world. god started with the Jews, continued with the Gentile and will conclude with the Jews.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/28/2009 08:06 am

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Romans 11:23)

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/27/2009 19:20 pm

Watchman Nee, a servant of our God from China held the same position as do Scott. Some other well meaning Christian scholars hold this opinion as well. I have very high regard for Brother Watchman Nee, but I am still not comfortable with what he believed on this premise.

I am still not convinced that God has no further dealing with Israel. In fact, with the over all picture of the Scripture, Israel has still to play pivotal role in the plan of God, even as the part of His Church.

The end time is marked by a rigorous conflict between God and His arch enemy, the Satan. The ultimate victory is of God and His faithful.It is for this reason that the book of Revelation talks of overcomers or overcoming.

The interpretation as discussed by Scott is also an opinion and not a final one, no matter how sincerely he gives it with prayers and in depth study of the Word of God. He say that the Woman in chapter 12 is the Church and the male child is the Overcomers in that Church. But we have three verses in Revelation to consider:

“And he (the overcomer)shall rule them with a rod of iron;……., even as I have received (power) of my Father.” (Revelation 2:27)

“And she brought forth a male child, who WAS to rule all the nations with a rode of iron” (Revelation 12:5)

“….His name is the word of God……and he shall rule them with a rode of iron.” Rev.19:13-15)

In all the three references, Jesus is the one to rule with the rod of iron.In the ultimate result, it is the Lord Jesus Christ who is to rule the nations with a rode of iron and the overcomers are to share in His reigning. In chapter 12, we have the man child, a singular personage and can rightly and naturally fit with the Lord Jesus in view of Rev. 19:15, rather than overcomers as stated in Rev. 2:27. So if some holds that the woman of Chpater 12 is Israel and the man child is the Lord Jesus,one cannot rule out that possibility altogether. We all are learnig.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/27/2009 16:28 pm

Besides, Scott .. Who made you the all time authority anyway? And about your beliefs on how you understand prophecy.. We all know the only way you can really know the meaning behind prophecy is the holy spirit, so be careful and don’t talk to me like that again…

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/24/2009 20:50 pm

well obviously your established version of text has no merit concerning your understanding in interpretation bc had it been so then there would be no reason for revealing the truth behind prophecy. Which means some where along the way your established thinking was arrogant.believe what you want too. It still doesnt mean you know what your talking about. and revealing prophecy eventually means you couldnt have or God wouldn’ t have to reveal it eventually especially to those who think they do… If you truly know then what is it that God could reveal that you dont . Hypocryite.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/24/2009 06:35 am

Christina,

Sorry, but your position simply has no merit and I have no desire for a dispute. Believe what you want.

Regarding whose belief is right and who’s is wrong, the only thing I can say for certain is that the text in question cannot be made to mean anything we want it to mean. Rightly dividing the “Word of Truth” doesn’t happen simply because we’re Christian. It happens subjectively by disciplined study and prayer. It happens objectively by consistently applying established rules of interpretation and having a balanced knowledge of redemption, history and the Kingdom of God. To unlock the mysteries of prophecy, you must have both; but even then you can still get it wrong and many do.

But even before any of these things, it’s extremely helpful to carefully read what the text actually says. As you say, “Read all the texts”; to which I say; “RE-read MY text”. I did NOT say the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. I said 69 weeks have been fulfilled and the 70th week remains to be fulfilled.

Perhaps you’ve been thinking too far outside the box. May I suggest fully examining everything that’s currently INSIDE the box before you go looking outside of it.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/24/2009 03:58 am

just because you are fixed on this widely held belief system doesn’t mean it is right or that i am wrong. The 70 weeks are there to allow the temple to be rebuilt in the end times before the war starts. It is the firecracker that causes it all! What makes you so absolutely sure that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled? Read all the texts. It plainly says these things will happen. First the published peace.. a book that explains the truth behind the prophecy. Second the Jews return in mass. THird. the temple gets rebuilt. Those things have not happened yet especially exactly like that… The 70 weeks are literal.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/23/2009 21:20 pm

“There are a lot of speculation about Daniels 70weeks”

Christina,

This is exactly what I’m talking about. In general, the church is thinking way too far “outside the box” regarding Daniel’s 70th week. If we would just get out minds off of our own personal “speculations” and simply apply the most basic rules of prophetic interpretation, these things would be much easier to understand.

The 70 weeks are not literal weeks, but rather weeks of years. 69 weeks of Daniel’s prophecies (483 years) have clearly been fulfilled. One week remains to be fulfilled; the 70th week (7 years). Up to this point, there is much agreement among students because the conclusion bears up so well to objective interpretation.

However, the “speculation” begins when we say the Rapture is the event that starts Daniel’s 70th week. On this conclusion there is no objective interpretation and sadly, much of the church has been so conditioned to think this notion is biblical that they refuse to “think outside the box”. In fact, many refuse to think at all.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/23/2009 03:20 am

There are a lot of speculation about Daniels 70weeks. My personal studies have indicated that the 70 weeks are literal weeks. They are the final 70 weeks that it takes to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem in the very last days before WW III. Remember the Jews go home in the final days. They rebuild the temple. The anti-Christ comes to take over in a time of peace and boom! The seven year war begins.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/22/2009 13:49 pm

Are you familiar with Daniel’s 70th week?

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/22/2009 05:06 am

Christina,

I commend you for being willing to think “outside the box” on these matters. However, we don’t always have the luxury of thinking outside the box; especially regarding truths that God has already revealed.

But, refusing to “think outside the box” on matters that God HASN’T revealed is particularly frustrating and this is done in the church far more than we care to admit. Case in point; the “7 year tribulation” theory. For some reason, somebody came up with the notion that there is a 7 year period of Tribulation that begins with the Rapture and ends with the return of Christ at Armageddon. At times it seems that everybody believes this even though there’s no legitimate way to validate it by the scriptures. Until the church at large decides to think “outside the box” on this matter, she will be unprepared for the time of trouble that lies ahead.

Ah, but this is just ONE of the matters!

Continue to think outside the box but continue also to study, study, study the holy word of God.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/22/2009 04:29 am

There was a sign in the heavens in 1996 of the woman giving birth to a manchild. perhaps that was a sign that something was happening that we werent thinking about. What if she is neither the church nor mother mary. Who could she be then? Would it not be a clearer interpretation to assume she might be someone actually alive in the end times that gives birth to a real person? And if so, what would it tell us about the rapture when you realize verse 12:13 says the baby is now a child after the 3 &1/2 years passed. Which lost jewish family could this woman represent and what is her purpose in the end times? Just a thought. Think OUTSIDE the box…

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 5/21/2009 00:30 am

Jayant,

“To say that the church will have to go through the tribulation and then to say that the overcomers will not go through it is not correct.”

Becuause you believe the above statement probably explains why you cannot believe my interpretation of the Man-child. You seem to be suggesting that God would not allow any of His children to suffer the Tribulation unless they ALL did. Please be reminded that the blood of our Savior is only a guarantee against the WRATH of God; not against the Tribulation. This is why Jesus made so many appeals for his followers to “be ready” because many simply WILL NOT be ready.

Perhaps there is another element which may cause conflict in your understanding. That element may be the Tribulation itself. The typical understanding in the church today of this event is terribly convoluted. Many people put the Tribulation into the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. This seems to be a very popular belief but it is terribly inaccurate. The Tribulation has nothing to do with Daniel’s 70th week except that it immediately precedes it. In a nutshell, the Tribulation lasts for 3 1/2 years and when it comes to an end, Daniel’s 70th week begins and lasts for 7 more years. So, from the time of the Rapture to the Return of Christ is 10 1/2 years. Now stick with me:

The reason this is important to understand is because the 3 1/2 years of Tribulation which the saints on earth must endure is NOT the WRATH of God. God’s wrath does not begin until the 7th seal is broken. This is also the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. But you will notice that the Tribulation saints are IN HEAVEN in chapter 7 BEFORE the 7th seal is broken in chapter 8. Therefore, the resurrection of the Tribulation saints along with the sealing of the 144,00 signal the end of the Tribulation and the beginning of God’s wrath (trumpet judgments) for the next 7 years. Wrath and Tribulation are distinctly separate.

Lastly, you make a reference to 1 Thes. 4 and imply that Paul does not make a distinction regarding “overcomers”. This is true, but I hope you also acknowledge that this ommission does not prove YOUR hypothesis. It might be good to re-examine the character of the Thessalonian church, however, for I believe it has a lot to do with Paul’s instruction to them. Even a cursory examine will reveal that this is a remarkable church that is victorious over persecution and suffering. A church that refused to yield to the horrible culture that surrounded them but rather, stood out as a light and witness to the gospel. They were a sanctified body of believers full of faith and love that prompted Paul to say; “May the Lord strengthen your hearts SO THAT you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all His holy ones.” To me, there is one word that describes this church: overcomers.

It seems grossly presumptuous to assume that all Christians will automatically receive the same great reward of rapture that Paul is confirming to the Thessalonians unless they also have attained the same holiness through suffering. “Without holiness, NO ONE will see the Lord.”

The necessary holiness that comes through suffering will be granted through the Tribulation.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/22/2009 21:22 pm

We have in 1 Thes. 4 how the Church is going to be raptured. It doesn’t speak about the rapture of only the overcomers. Even the rapture of overcomers is one’s own intepretaion. It is not specifically stated therein. In the seven letters to the Church of Asia-Minor, they all say about the reward of the overcomers, not their raputure. If the Church is going through the tribualation, it would include the overcomers living at that time. Yes, the beleivers of all the time have to fight to the finish in order to overcome. To say that the church will have to go through the tribulation and then to say that the overcomers will not go through it is not correct.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/22/2009 17:04 pm

Jayant,

I believe you may be making another common mistake. You seem to be looking at the Tribulation as THE test that must be “overcome”. This is incorrect. The time of testing that will distinguish the “overcomers” has NOTHING to do with the Tribulation. It will not be a “black and white” circumstance where believer’s get to make a clear choice between taking the Mark of the Beast or not. No, the test that’s coming will be with full-blown deception and it will come SUDDENLY. The Mark of the Beast will NOT be deceptive nor will it come suddenly. Most of the church will fall prey to this test because they won’t recognize what is going on.

Remember, Jesus’ stern warning to “not be deceived”. When Satan is on the earth reigning through Antichrist during the Tribulation period, his mask is OFF. EVERYONE will know who he really is. It will be very hard to be deceived during the Tribulation. The fullness of Evil will be reigning and Satan will no longer be hiding in the shadows. This is NOT the time Jesus was warning us about.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/22/2009 02:43 am

How can some of the members of the representive seven churches of Asia-Minor, who are “overcomers” be taken to heaven in Chapter 4? If they do not go through the tribulation period, how can they be overcomers and how can they be designated as overcomers? The beast in Chapter 13 is going to