Revelation 12: 1 Commentary

“the Church will have to go through tribulation, meaning thereby that there will not be pre-tribulation rapture.”

Jayant,

In a nutshell, yes, the “overcomers” of all 7 churches in chapters 2 and 3 constitute the Man-child and are caught up into heaven. Chronologically speaking, this occurs in chapter 4. (Note: Chapters 2 through 11 are chronological). But you will notice that the believer’s who remain and have to go through the tribulation are NOT in heaven as revealed in chapter 6. Their dead bodies remain ON THE EARTH through the entirety of the first six seals. THEN they are recorded as entering heaven in chapter 7. Chapter 20:4-8 describes this and calls it part of the first resurrection even though the timing of it is 3 1/2 years later.

Note: The “overcomers” are raptured BEFORE the Tribulation; the believers that go THROUGH the Tribulation are resurrected at the end of it; and the 144,000 who are sealed (ch. 7) even go through the 7 year period of God’s wrath (Daniel’s 70th week) and are on earth to WELCOME Christ when He returns. So in otherwords, there is never a time when some Christians are not on the earth.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/21/2009 12:15 pm

So my dear brother Scott is trying to say that the Church will have to go through tribulation, meaning thereby that there will not be pre-tribulation rapture. But I have also put a question as to where the rapture is then in the scheme of Revelation? Is there one rapture or multiple of it?

Yes, we have a scene of one woman in Rev. 12, another in Rev. 17 and the bride of Christ in Rev. 19. since the marraige of the lamb with the bride is yet to take place, the Church is only bride, no woman. Hwo can the Church be a woman of Rev. 12?

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/21/2009 07:42 am

I bumped the Enter key prematurely. My Post is continued below:

Many think that the Rapture will rescue us from the Tribulation. This is not entirely accurate. It is better to say that the Rapture SPARES us from the Tribulation. What the Rapture rescues us from is an intractable situation on the earth that will test the faithfullness of the church. A test of faith that may very well have severe consequences. Most of the church, because of deception, will NOT be ready for this. A type of this from the OT is Daniel’s test to pray three times a day at the risk of being thrown to the lions. How many Christians today would’ve easily justified foregoing their daily devotions for 30 days to avoid a den of lions??

Such a test WILL come again. So, we continue to STUDY that we may be ready for that Day.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/20/2009 14:36 pm

Jayant,

“this is however no excuse not to studying the word of God!”

And of course, that’s what we’re doing on this forum.

Your first point about the 7 churches seems a bit inconclusive to me. Are you saying that some of the seven churches were NOT true churches? Why does Jesus give us the picture that he is holding the Angels (leaders) of these churches “IN HIS HAND”? If the message Jesus sends to these seven “stars” is not addressed to “those who are His own” then what’s the point of sending the message at all? Remember, these 7 churches were real, literal, VISIBLE churches in John’s day. Are there some false shepherds and false sheep in these churches? Yes, of course. It’s always been this way and will be until the church is finally transported to heaven.

The identity of the Woman is very significant for being able to properly interpret the vision of chapter 12. In chapter 17 we see the antithesis of the Woman of Light in the Woman of Blood who rides on the back of the Beast. This wicked Woman represents a very evil religious system that “fornicates” with a very powerful commercial system. Both Women, therefore, represent SYSTEMS and STRUCTURES (or principalities and powers). One for holy purposes, the other for evil.

However, once the identity of the Woman of Light has been established, the point of greatest concern ought to be her offspring. This is where many in the church will simply not have “ears to hear”. The distinction between the Man-child who gets “caught up” to heaven and the many Offspring that remain on earth to suffer so greatly is NOT that one sibling was “true” and the other was “false”; but rather, one was READY and the other was not.

Regarding “Shepherds”, I’m uncertain of your point. You seem to be implying that no one can function in the role of a shepherd except Jesus Himself. True, one day he will be the Chief Shepherd over ONE flock, but in the meantime, he has appointed many “shepherds” (pastors, elders, deacons,) to lead and feed the flock of God.

I particularly like what you said in your last paragraph:

“It is like the disciples of the Lord Jesus who were not able to comprehand what was going to happen to our Lord in Jerusalem”.

This is the point precisely. The disciples who had walked with Jesus for over three years had no clue what was about to happen that night in Gethsemane. They had just declared their unwavering loyalty to Jesus when He warns them; “Watch and pray that you will not fall into temptation” (and deny that you know me!). In other words, the disciples themselves were NOT READY for the severe testing of their faith that “suddenly” fell upon them all. This is a picture of the testing in the church that will occur just before the Rapture. Those who “run away” will think they are saving their life, but will lose it in the Tribulation. Those who remain standing with Jesus will lose their life for His sake but will be saved (rescued) by the Rapture.

Many think that the Rapture will rescue us from the Tribulation. This is not entirely accurate. It is better to say that the Rapture SPARES

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/20/2009 14:25 pm

This has a reference to post # 25.

In the New Testament we have local Churches.Not all in such Churches were true members of the Church of Jesus Christ. There were those who followed the doctrine of Balaam in the church at Pergamos and Jezebel and her flollowers in in the church at Thyatira. “The Lord knoweth them that are His.” (2Tim. 2:19) so when someone say “The true church” I take it that it has a reference to the invisble Church. The book of Revelation starts with the seven churches, but ends with one true Church- the bride of Christ.

As for the observation that Shepherds has to do with the visible Church or the nation of Israel, we may do well to note that the Lord Jesus will be the shepherd of His people as noted in Rev. 7:17. We may aslo see the references John 10:16; 1 Pet. 5:4.

It seems to me that there are so many well meaning Bible based scholars, but with the end time prophesy, especially the book of Revelation, there are many many differnent intepretaions. Perhaps the Lord has kept it secret for us to understand it fully and finally right now. We may see it unfolding when the time comes for it. It is like the disciples of the Lord Jesus who were not able to comprehand what was going to happen to our Lord in Jerusalem.These things were kept from their understanding.Let some one come with some explanation and position, and there are some questions sure to crop up! This leads me to keep me humble before the Lord. this is however no excuse not to studying the word of God!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/20/2009 11:48 am

Jayant,

You said: “The woman as you say is the True (Invisible) Church.”

I’m not sure who you are attributing this quote to but I did not say this. However, permit me to address it as I think I know what you are getting at.

First of all, you may find my remarks confusing; but hopefully not. Here goes:

It would be far more accurate to say; “The Woman is the VISIBLE church” just like verse 1 describes her. The Man-child is the INVISIBLE church (unseen within the woman’s womb verse 2). Please note that this is NOT a distinction between the “true” church and the “false” church (that comparison is found in Matthew 13:36-43). Both, the Woman and the Man-child ARE the true church. We get into serious error very quickly if we don’t recognize this.

After the Man-child is Raptured, leaving the Woman and the rest of her Offspring on the earth, it can become quite confusing to understand this picture of the remaining believers that must endure the Tribulation. At this point, it’s very helpful to understand that God makes a CLEAR distinction between Shepherds and Sheep. He always has. Just consider chapters like Ezekiel 34 or Matthew 23. Shepherds have always been associated with the visible, organizational, ruling component of the nation of Israel or the Church itself. This is why the indictments of Rev. 2 and 3 are addressed to the Angels (messengers, spokesmen, representatives, leaders) of the 7 Church bodies. These leaders and their organizational structure represent the whole visible church (the Woman).

Now, if you’re still with me, let’s take a look at Rev. 12:13 where the Dragon (Antichrist) pursues the Woman. Satan (via antichrist small “a”) blew his opportunity to devour the Man-child whom he fears because the Man-child is destined to take back the dominion that Satan stole. In addition, he lost his strategic position in the heavenlies whereby he deceived the whole world; so in his rage, he attacks what remains behind. The first thing he goes after is the visible church and attemps to destroy it. This could be likened to the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia where all vestiges of Christianity were being destroyed (ie: churches, seminaries, Christian institutions, vocal leaders etc.). Or, a better example might be modern-day China where the visible church has been eradicated except where it has been replaced by the State church (fornication). The Chinese government has done a thorough job of eliminating the influence of the visible church (the Woman) but it has NOT stopped the churches Offspring from growing! The underground church in China today is the fastest growing body of believers in the world!

Back to Revelation 12: Antichrist (who is now totally possessed by the outcast Satan himself) is supernaturally prevented from completely destroying or controlling the visible church (verses 14-16). This failure only serves to further enrage him so he determines to go after the individual believers (sheep) of the underground church instead.

This same thing happens periodically in China today when the government will flex it’s muscle by infiltrating and exposing underground believers. They may abuse, imprison, torture or even kill them to make an example. Fortunately, there are still many restraints in the world to keep this from happening in the full-blown horrific way that it could. However, when Antichrist reigns, all these restraints will be gone and the martyred bodies will heap.., but just like the believers in China have swollen under oppression and persecution so will the believers during the Tribulation (7:9-17)!

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/19/2009 03:02 am

I would be happy if Scott writes more on the subject; I am also a student of the Bible and I have an evinced interest in the book of Revelation. But I am thinking of Revelation 12 further. The woman as you say is the True (Invisible) Church. The Man Child, only overcomers of the Church are taken up and resuced. Still rest of her children are persecuted by the Devil. Which woman is then taken to wilderness to save her from the wroth of Satan? surely those of the saints who have died by then nedd no protection from the Satan.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/18/2009 16:37 pm

Scott,
Thank you for your comments.
The Book I have, which I mentioned in post 21, was reprinted in 1986 and published by “Christ for the Nations”,Dallas,Texas.I came to know that this missionary-service organization was founded by Gordon Lindsay & his wife.From the book “Will Christians go through the Great Tribulation?” I learned that Gordon Lindsay has written “Gifts of the Spirit” and his wife has written “My Diary Secrets”.

Scott,I have been reading all your posts.Thank you.

By Alex (wrote 499 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/18/2009 14:40 pm

Alex,

Good show!

I’ve not heard of Gordon Lindsay. I will research him. Can you direct me to any of his work? Great post! (See my post #7 if you haven’t). This man’s interpretation is spot on. It brings clarity to all the references to “saints” in the book of Daniel as well as “overcomer”, “the called”, “called-out ones” etc. in the NT.

It also clarifies why Jesus emphasizes so much the warnings to “stay awake”, “do not be deceived”, “be ready” etc. because, sadly, many Christians won’t be.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/18/2009 13:16 pm

Refer Commentary No.14.
I wish to point out what Gordon Lindsay referred to “The sun-clothed woman” and “The man child” in his book”Will Christians go through tribulation?”
“It is no doubt that the sun-clothed woman is a symbol of Israel,but she represents more than National Israel.The sun-clothed woman represents the true church,the called-out ones of all ages,whom Satan persecutes in his effort to destroy her seed.She was the “church in the wilderness” when Israel escaped Pharaoh and fled from Egypt.Acts 7:35.The sun-clothed woman represents the church of all dispensations in age long conflict with Satan.
The prophecy in Rev.12:5,6 refers primarily to a Man child company of overcomers who are to rule the nations with a rod of iron.Rev.2:26,27.The Man child company,it is to be noted,is caught up to heaven,just before the Great tribulation begins.(First fruit rapture just before the great tribulation).The man child company is to be caught up to heaven and the rest of the seed of the woman is to be left on the earth,to contend with the powers of hell which are now cast into their midst.Satan’s persecution of the seed of the woman is accompanied through the Beast.His war is not only against believing Jews but against the saints of “all nations,and kindreds,people and tongues. “

By Alex (wrote 499 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/18/2009 12:19 pm

Jayant,

You’ve said many things in your post #19. I’d like to respond but each point may take a lot of space so I’m going to take them just one or two at a time over many days.

“The observation that symbolism has always to do with prophesy of future events may not always be the case.”

Forgive me for saying, but I think you may be making a very common mistake. Symbolism is always and only prophetic. This is axiomatic. However, it must be understood what is meant by “symbolism”. First of all, in the broadest sense, all language in the Bible is either Literal or Figurative. Figurative language is divided into two sub groups: Metaphoric and Symbolic. Metaphoric language can be used of things historic (past), present, or prophetic (future). If figurative language is found, the context of a passage must be properly examined to determine if the figurative component is Metaphoric or Symbolic.

Your example of Jeremiah 50:17 is clearly not Symbolic but rather Metaphoric. The way this is determined is by the inclusion of literal components within the text itself. In other words, the king of Assyria and king Nebuchadnezzar are real, literal people. “Flock” and “lions” are therefore, metaphoric. If this was a Symbolic passage, EACH element would be symbolic. The two kings, therefore, would have to be symbolic of something entirely different than what they are stated as. But history bears out that these two kings are literal and historic. Again, Metaphoric language can refer to past, present or future depending mostly on context. Symbolic language is always and only future.

“Even the visions of Rev. Chapter 4 and 5 cannot be taken as purely prophetic events/ the slain lamb is a historic event for John!”

The first point of clarification is that ALL of Revelation is future to John including chapters 2,3,4 and 5. If they are not, the entire book may as well be taken out of the Canon.

Secondly, your point about “the Lamb that looked as if it had been slain” does not preclude this from refering to a future event. This statement does not mean John is viewing an historic scene of Calvary. Rather, he is viewing a future scene where Jesus is depicted (metaphorically) as a Lamb. The Lamb metaphor is extremely powerful because it represents the particular NATURE OF THE WORK OF REDEMPTION that Jesus happens to be engaged in at the moment that John sees Him. This is very important to notice because nearly all of the references to creatures in Revelation who are involved in the work of redemption have to do with the NATURE OF THE WORK as well as the NATURE OF THE PERSONAGE that the metaphor represents: the lion (4:7), the ox, the man, the eagle, the horses, the Lion, the Lamb, are all Metaphoric, not literal. (When we get to heaven, we will not suddenly find that Jesus was really a lamb)! On the other hand, the woman, the man-child, the dragon, the offspring, the leopard, the bear, the lion (13:2) are all Symbolic.

One more very important point of distiction regarding Symbolic language needs to be made. However, it’s a bit difficult to grasp. It goes like this:

When Symbolic language is used, it is ONLY used in respect to things that concern events on earth. Symbolic language is NEVER used to depict things that concern events in heaven. Two good examples of things concerning heaven are Rev. 12:7-12 and Daniel 7:9-10. In fact, these are nearly parallel events. Metaphoric language can be used pertaining to things in heaven and often is, but Symbolic language isn’t. In other words, when things concerning heaven are mentioned, they are always literal. The language may be fantastic or difficult to understand but it is literal nonetheless.

Enough for now. Shalom

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/18/2009 04:11 am

Scott,

I submit my further observations with reference to my post # 15 and yours posts # 7, 16 and 18, starting with post # 3.

In the first place, the observation that symbolism has always to do with prophesy of future events may not always be the case. In Ezekiel there are many historical facts narrated by using symbols. In Jeremiah 50:17, Israel is likened to scattered sheep and Assyria and Babylon to lions. We know that Israel had already been taken into captivity by Assyria. So even for a historic fact, symbolism is used. We cannot take as a rule for interpretation that symbolism is used for future events. Even the visions of Rev. Chapter 4 and 5 cannot be taken as purely prophetic events/ the slain lamb is a historic event for John!

Yes, Jesus has conquered the Satan, but it was the Satan who was to bite the heel of the Man child as understood from Genesis 3:15It is written, “Jesus was taken up in heaven.”
(Acts 1:9).

The over comers in Revelation are the Church of Jesus Christ- all who are truly born again of God. And “whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world” (1 John. 5:4). Man Child is the figurative language used for Lord Jesus- He is not mentioned there by name. It is written personally for him that “he would rule all the nations with a rod of iron”. (Rev. 12:5). Similar phrase is used for Lord Jesus in Rev. 19: 15! The over comers (Church) will share in the rule of Christ, but they cannot be likened to one Man Child.

If some one says that a parrot is born to a sheep, it is not logically correct, but to say that Jesus has come down from the nation of Israel is a natural way of saying the thing. Jesus is said to be the lion of Judah. Judah is a tribe, so you cannot say that the lion should be the symbol for a tribe. Again if the man child of Rev. 12 is the over comers Rev. 3:26-27, what can we say of Jesus who is their pattern and what could be the relationship between Jesus and the other over comers for interpreting Rev.12? Certainly we can’t liken Jesus to be the woman of Rev. 12! Jesus is never likened to a woman in the Bible. It is quite absurd to say so.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 3/17/2009 16:55 pm

Jayant,

Go back and read my previous entries on this verse starting with post #3. They should answer your questiions to me about these things.

Regarding the Book of Revelation as a whole, yes, I believe the entire book was prophetic (future) to John with the possible exception that some of the things in chapters 2 and 3 my have already begun. From chapter 4 EVERYTHING is still future.

Your comment about Jesus being the “builder of the Church” is well made: If the woman is the Church, then the child CANNOT be Jesus. Likewise, if the child is Jesus, then the woman CANNOT be the church. The simple answer to this is that the child is NOT Jesus. (I’ve explained this in post # 7).

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/28/2009 18:56 pm

Scott,

Thank you for your response.Just tell us who you beleive is the woman of Rev. 12 and in what way. Do you believe the Revelation to be the symbolic book about future events only? Jesus Christ is the builder of the Church and he cannot therefore be the male child of the Church. Mary the mother of Jesus Christ is the history, and as you have said symbolic language is used for the future events only.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/28/2009 16:30 pm

Jayant,

The woman of Revelation 12 cannot be Israel. That is, not if you abide by accepted rules of interpretation. Consider just three:

1. If the woman symbolizes a nation (ie: Israel), then the child within her must ALSO sybolize a nation. Interpreting the woman symbolically while interpreting the child literally makes a sham of the prophetic word.

2. It serves no purpose in prophecy to convey historic fact SYMBOLICALLY. It simply isn’t done. Symbolism is ALWAYS given for future events; never historic events. History is always given literally.

3. In symbolic prophecy, the subject matter is always figurative, however, the action is always literal. You are correct to say the child literally “came out of” the woman. However, the child was “snatched up to heaven” and rescued from the jaws of the dragon and this NEVER happened to Jesus. He wasn’t taken up to heaven as soon as he was born nor was he rescued from the dragon. Jesus CONQUERED the dragon and He ascended into heaven victoriously. It was never a rescue.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/27/2009 22:34 pm

It seems that the commentors go too far from the verse itself. This website can have a very good commentary to refer, if we concentrate on the verse itself or may at least confine our selves in the context relavant to the verse in question.

Here in Revelation Chapter 12, we read about the vision of a woman. If we consider the dream of Joseph as given in Gensis 37:9-10, the woman sigifies the nation of Israel. Some say it is the Church.The Roman Catholics believes that it is the Mary, the mother of Jesus and that she is the Queen of heaven.Revelation 12 does talk about the woman giving birth to a male child, making a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ. But Mary had never faced a persecution of the kind stated in this chapter and that she was given a sheleter in wilderness etc. One may give preterist interpretaion of the book of Revelation or a futurist one, but it cannot be applied to Mary. As for the nation of Israel however,we know that Jesus was the decendant of that nation as a Jew. As concerning the flesh Christ was also of the stock of the nation of Israel (Rom. 9:4) He was the son of Abraham and son of David. So the woman of Revelation 12 is the nation of Israel.

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/27/2009 17:39 pm

The general belief of the believers is that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be in two stages:
1)Second coming of Jesus Christ as Bridegroom:(The Bright & morning Star—-
Rev.22:16)Jesus will come to take up the Church to be with Him.1 The.4:16,17
1 Cor.15:51,52;Phil.3:20.It is believed that this incident will happen before the tribulation.The dead in Christ will rise first.They that are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
2)Second coming of Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords.(Sun of righteousness– Mal.4:2).
Jesus Christ will come with His saints.
Zech.14:6 “..and the LORD my God shall come,and all the saints with thee.”
Jude 14.”..the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints”

By Alex (wrote 499 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/21/2009 02:37 am

You ask a good question. From my studies of chapter 2 and 3 I am very much inclined to believe the Catholic Church IS the major power in view. Rome has always had a hand in commercialism.., especially RELIGIOUS commercialism which I believe is an example of “spiritual fornication”.

However, since I also believe that this power center is nothing less than a literal re-birth of Babylon, it very likely means that the Catholic Church will have to move from the Vatican to Babylon which is almost as difficult as believing before 1948 that Israel would once again be a nation. But Satan’s “church” basically began in Babylon where he first set up a stronghold (throne), so it’s not too hard to imagine that this is where he must return before he attemps to ascend the throne in Jerusalem.

Though a bit obscure, I’m inclined to think Zechariah 5:5-11 deals with this unusual transfer of power.

If the prostitute is NOT essentially the Catholic Church, there’s only one other entity that I think could come close to filling the descriptive language in chapter 17. It would be something like a combination of the U.N. and the Church. On the one hand, it’s the U.N. suddenly getting “religious”; on the other, it’s the church becoming secular. Browse the following website and you’ll very likely see what I mean:

tonyblairfaithfoundation.org

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/7/2009 05:43 am

So you don’t believe it has anything to do with the present Roman Catholic Church?

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/7/2009 01:20 am

Mr Elder,
I believe the Great Prostitute is reborn Babylon; the seat of religious and commercial power that will be well exploited by Antichrist, the Master of religion and commerce.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/7/2009 01:17 am

I had never thought about it before, but Jesus talking to Jews when He said, “In this world ye shall have tribulation…”

Personally, I don’t believe the church is on earth anymore after Rev 4. “Come up hither…”(Rev 4:1)

But let me confirm one more thing, what do you believe the Great Whore in Rev 17 represents?

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/5/2009 22:43 pm

Mr. Elder,

Yes, that is my belief. In many different ways, Jesus warns or implores the saints to “be ready”. One must assume that means that some (perhaps many) will not be ready. This does not mean they are not “saved”, it just means they are not “ready” heaven. The persecution of the Tribulation will change all that. I believe Daniel 11:33-35 addresses this specifically. Again, the parable of the ten virgins speaks to this quite clearly.

When the Raptured saints are safely in heaven, Rev 12:11 says this about them; “They did NOT love their lives so much as to shrink from death”. This is what qualifies them to “be ready”. Sad to say, when the trial comes and evil comes to harvest, many of our brethern will love their lives MORE than death. “He who seeks to save his life will lose it”. (But the Bride MUST be made pure!)

An important point of distinction has to be made in all of this, however. The time of Tribulation for the saints is NOT the time of the wrath of God. In all of this, Daniel’s 70th week has NOT YET begun. Seals 1 thru 6 are opened during the Tribulation (persecution) of the saints under Antichrist (”in this world you will have tribulation”). When they are all killed after 42 months, the Tribulation comes to an end. Then seal #7 with the 7 Trumpets is opened and Daniel’s 70th week begins. The judgments of pure wrath with no mixture of mercy are poured out during all 7 years. (This begins with the sealing of the 144,000). Jacob’s Trouble occurs during the last half of Daniel’s 70th week (3.5 yrs). The time when Antichrist turns all his efforts against the Jews.

We must remember that though the saints are NOT “appointed unto wrath”, there is no guarantee that we will not suffer tribulation. Many have suffered horrific tribulation in the past and even up to today. The path to heaven for MUCH of the church at that time will be through the trials of the Tribulation.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/5/2009 05:54 am

So you believe that not all saved people will be raptured out before the onset of the tribulation?

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/5/2009 01:20 am

Consider:

The Woman is the Universal Church through out the entirety of the church age. In Rev 12, we see her in the future at the end of the age. This is the collective image of all 7 churches in Rev 2 & 3. This woman, therefore, represents a very large body of people.

The manchild, therefore, represents a smaller body of people that comes OUT OF the larger body of the woman all at one time. Specifically, verse 5 tells us EXACTLY who this is. By comparing verse 5 with Rev 2:26-27 we learn that this unseen, small body that comes out of the very visible larger body is nothing less than the “overcomers” of all 7 churches in chapters 2 & 3. The faithful HANDFUL that always have an “ear to hear what the Spirit is saying”

Futher evidence of this is found in Rev 3:21 and especially Rev 12:11 -the “overcomers” (”they overcame”).

In essence, this is a picture of the Resurrection/Rapture at the end of the age. The manchild (overcomers), through circumstances yet to be revealed, find themselves faced with certain destruction by Satan (antichrist) because they are destined to replace him in the strategic position of power he presently occupies (the heaven/air). But the sudden rescue of the manchild thwarts his scheme and instead of securing his position of power, he loses it completely and is cast down to the earth. This is a major defeat for him. A good illustration of this in type is Daniel 6, the entire chapter.

Of course, this interpretation means that not all believers will escape the Tribulation. But that’s exactly the point; for we find in the rest of Rev 12 through 13:10 that Satan immediately sets out to destroy the rest of the offspring of the woman (Tribulation saints). This is the warning of Jesus’ parable of the 10 virgins.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/4/2009 23:14 pm

Then I reiterate your own question: “who is the child of verse five?” If the woman is not Israel?

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/4/2009 22:25 pm

Mr Elder,
With all due respect, Larkin’s interpretation is full of holes. Consider:

1. Figurative language is never used to describe a PAST event. Figurative language never deals with history. It always points toward the future. Therefore, replaying the birth of Christ is pointless.

2. If the woman is figurative, then her child is also figurative. But Larkin would have us believe a figurative woman would give birth to a literal child. This makes a mockery of prophetic exegesis.

3. Regarding Larkin’s confidence that the Manchild can only be Christ, he must have overlooked the promise Christ himself made in Rev 2:26-27; “To him who overcomes.., I will give authority over the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter and dash them to pieces like pottery” JUST AS I have received authority from my Father.

4. Finally, Jesus wasn’t “snatched up” to heaven as soon as he was born. In fact, he wasn’t “rescued” at all. He was victorious when he ascended and was not escaping from the jaws of anyone. He ascended by his own authority.

One last point to consider. If Larkin’s interpretation is accurate, what benefit does his interpretation possibly bring to broaden our understanding of the Book of Revelation or any of the events of the Time of the End? His interpretation tells us nothing that we have not known before.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/4/2009 22:07 pm

I believe she represents Israel. But Larkin says it better than I can:

“Sun-Clothed Woman.”

This “Woman” is neither the Virgin Mary, nor the Church, she is Israel. We have only to be reminded of Joseph’s Dream of the “sun” and “moon,” and the “eleven stars” (Ge 37:9), to see that this “Sun-Clothed Woman,” with the “moon” under her feet and upon her head a crown of “Twelve Stars,” is Jewish in character. Joseph was the twelfth star. Israel is again and again compared to a “married” woman in the Old Testament, but the Church is a “virgin,” and only an “espoused virgin” at that. 2Co 11:2. This “Woman” is described as being “with child” and “travailing to be delivered.” When was the Church in such a condition? Paul says of Israel, “Of whom as concerning the flesh Christ Came.” Ro 9:4-5. And Israel looked forward to the time when she could say—”Unto us a Child Is Born, unto us a Son is given.” Isa 9:6-7. But before that could happen Israel had to pass through many sore afflictions and judgments. These were her “Travail Time.”

As the result of her “travail” the Woman brought forth a “Man-Child” who was to rule the nations with a “Rod of Iron.” There can be no question as to who is meant by the “Man-Child.” The 2nd Psalm (Ps 2) settles that. He is Christ, who at His Ascension was caught up and seated on His Father’s Throne.

After her child is delivered the Woman “flees into the Wilderness” where she hath a place prepared of God, and where she is fed for 1260 days. Here is where many interpreters make a mistake. They overlook the fact that between the “fifth” and “sixth” verses of this chapter the present “Church Period” comes in. Here is the “gap” between the “Sixty-ninth” and “Seventieth” Weeks of Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks.” John jumps over this “gap,” from the Ascension of Christ to the casting out of Satan, because he is not dealing in these Tribulation chapters with the Church but with Israel, and wishes to continue her history without a break. Here is further evidence that the “Woman” is not the Virgin Mary, for she does not flee into Egypt, but into the Wilderness, neither does she flee “with” her child, for that was caught up to the Throne of God; neither does she flee for her child’s “protection,” but for her own.

By Jason W. Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/4/2009 21:33 pm

Angelo,
I believe the woman represents the Church.
The big question is, who is the child of verse five? What is your answer to that?

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/4/2009 13:24 pm

Angelo Medure jr,
Well,You know the meaning of this verse.Post your comments here for the benefit of others & discussion..

By Alex (wrote 499 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 2/4/2009 06:50 am

I would like to hear what others think of this verse, I know what it means ao please email me back

Thank you

By Angelo Medure jr (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/9/2008 02:23 am