Revelation 12: 1 Commentary

Jayant,

Please do not mis-represent my words. I never said God would destroy her after 3-1/2 years. (You wrote in reference to my suggestions, “How come that God preserves and protects the woman only to destroy the woman at the end of three years and a half?”) All I was trying to suggest was that God supplies protection for her for that 3-1/2 years, after which she would be martyred. And I hope I did not imply that God would martyr her; rather, EVIL FORCES will be allowed to. I suggested that the 3-1/2 years is a time allotted by God to allow the woman and her remnant to be formed from being Laodecia (half-baked), to being tried in the fire. God has done this many times with the children of Israel. The precedent, the precedent, the precedent, the precedent (4X for emphasis on “precedent”) is seen throughout the Old Testament and even in New Testament chronicles of Christian persecutions. But as far as the 3-1/2 years, there is no mention of what happens specifically to the woman the day after that time allotment is up. Scripture does, however, indirectly state the outcome.

Allow me to present a few scriptures which support my thesis. First, note that in Rev 17: 16-17 Gods put it in the hearts of the 10 horns to hate the whore and destroy her by devouring her flesh . . . figures of speech God allowed to be fulfilled upon the Children of Israel when they played the harlot. And since the woman of Rev 12 has played the harlot to some degree (I know this because the Rev 12 figure matches the “queen of heaven” who is the figure of the mother harlot of most past pagan dynasties throughout the history of man . . . .) then it may be safe to assume the woman of Rev 12 receives the same attention from God that the children of Israel did. “I am the Lord they God, I change not.” Mal 3:6

Read the passage:

Rev 17:16-17 And the ten horns . . . shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. (17) God (not the devil) hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will (which includes the destruction of the whore), and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

So, I do not agree with your comment, “What ridiculous and an extravagant thought!” as you labeled against me. All I did was report what God’s word states. I highly recommend that in the future people check such accusations; because I may just be quoting God’s word, in which case accusations would be calling what God said, “Ridiculous and an extravagant.”

To further the support of my suggestion (of a post 3-1/2 year martyrdom), may I draw your attention g to the mark of the beast. If Rev 6 thru 16 are in consecutive chronological order as we both have agreed upon, then it is most probably that the mark of the beast occurs after the 3-1/2 year protection. Scripture states that those who do not receive it will be destroyed. Would that not include the woman and her remnant who are still on the earth? Allow me to quote our Lord, so not to be “ridiculous and an extravagant.”

Rev 13:15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be KILLED.

Not to mention Rev 13:7

Rev 13:7 He was given power to make war against the SAINTS and to CONQUER them.

My suggestions are sound and completely scripturally based. I’ve backed it with numerous scriptures and more are available if you so require.

Of course, I’m always open to correction . . . . but that would mean someone would have to supply me with scripture that definitively reveals what happens to the woman after the 3-1/2 years.

Oh, ya . . . . if it is so awful to assume God allows the woman and her remnant to be killed after the 3-1/2 years, why has no-one raised a fuss about God allowing his two prophets/witnesses to be martyred after the 3-1/2 years (Rev 11)? Certainly, there devotion and obedience would keep them from such a fate. Scripture says otherwise.

I think where we error is that we attempt to make God into our image and likeness, assigning God our intentions if we were the one on the thrown. Certainly, we would never allow the woman of Rev12 to be destroyed. But then again, we would probably not allow the children of Bethlehem (and surrounding areas) to be destroyed at the birth of Christ if we knew it would happen. Nor would we permit all the inquisitions, X-ian persecutions, destruction of Old Testament Israel, or allow the millions of African X-ians in this modern age to be martyred. Yet, God allowed all the above; and He is still righteous, good, merciful . . . and he is still God, despite what attributes we want to assign Him.

I think we all have a lot to learn about Him yet.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 11:14 am

Jayant,

You are a true brother in Christ and no doubt, a very blessed man. I appreciate you.

Where to begin??

I shall start with your chronology. This is a very good time to learn a little more regarding the rules of prophetic interpretation. I am going to show you something that God did in the book of Daniel and by so doing, God set a precedent in place for interpreting future prophecies. The beauty of many of Daniel’s prophecies is that we can see HOW they were fulfilled because we can test them against history. Now please pay attention, this is not easy:

1.When God gives a prophetic vision regarding the time of the End; He uses figurative language. Usually, symbolic. For instance, this is manifestly evident throughout the book of Daniel. (Statue with head of gold; arms of silver etc. The lion; bear; leopard; beast; he-goat etc.).

2.However; God only uses this kind of prophetic language when the vision pertains to matters ON THE EARTH. Whenever God speaks of matters in heaven regarding the time of the End, he never uses symbolic language. It is always literal. It is often FANTASTIC language, but it is still literal.

Now at this point, I’m sure you are skeptical of what I’ve just said. Please just accept it for the moment. We can discuss it in detail later if you like and I believe I can prove the point. But stick with me a little longer.

Now, regarding your chronology of Rev 12; please note that verses 1 through 6 are clearly symbolic and sequential. (Remember; in figurative language the subject is always portrayed symbolically but the action is always literal). But then a major shift occurs in John’s vision in verse 7; he is no longer viewing a “great wonder” in the sky. John’s vision of the woman is suddenly interrupted and he is now viewing actual fantastic events that are taking place IN HEAVEN. You’ll note that the language in these verses is all literal. This part of John’s vision continues right on through verse 12. Then, just as suddenly, everything shifts back to symbolism and earthly events in verses 13 through 17.

By interrupting John’s vision of the woman and sandwiching in a glimpse of activity in heaven, God is telling us that the earthly events portrayed symbolically in verses 1-6 and 13-17 are taking place AT THE VERY SAME TIME as the heavenly verses 7-12.

In other words, the narrative of the woman reads uninterrupted if you simply remove verses 7 thru 12.

The precedent for this conclusion has been set by God Himself in Daniel chapter 7. Take some time and carefully read this chapter and you will see that the very same principle is utilized AND the interpretation is given proving the point. (If you are still with me, I suggest you investigate and meditate on these matters a bit before continuing on).

Now, everything I have said up to this point is for the purpose of pointing out a significant flaw in your chronology of Rev 12. You said;

-“The brethren overcame the devil by the blood of the lamb and by the testimony. They loved not their live (V.10-110 (This means that they were on earth, died on earth as martyrs),”

You have concluded that these brethren “died on the earth as martyrs”. This is incorrect. “Loving not their lives” does not necessarily mean they were martyred. Daniel “loved not his life unto death”. So did Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. It is BECAUSE they loved not their lives unto death THAT THEY WERE DELIVERED. Please note this next point carefully; the “overcoming” that is spoken of in verse 12 is NOT in regard to overcoming the Devil in verses 13 to 17; but rather in verses 4 and 5! This is a HUGE difference.

The Man-child is the overcomer who is snatched up to heaven to occupy the very same position of authority that Satan had in the heavenly realm. This is why Satan was poised to destroy this child the moment it was born but his plan was thwarted by Michael and his angels. Satan not only fails to destroy the heirs to the throne but he even loses ground in the process. When verse 12 says; “Rejoice you heavens, and you who DWELL IN THEM”; it is referring directly to these (man-child) saints who now occupy the heavenly realm (dwelling in them).

I’ve taken too much time on this point and now I’m exhausted (waaay past my bedtime). Jayant, if you have not yet done so, please take a little time to read and meditate on Daniel 6 the entire chapter. What is taking place in Revelation 12 is happening in TYPE in Daniel 6.

Shalom

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 05:58 am

She is not destroyed. She gives her life.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 03:05 am

Here are some observations on Revelation 12.

The chronological sequence of the events as described in Rev.12 is as follows:

-The woman with the child,
-the devil with his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
-The devil is ready to devour the child,
-The man-child is taken up to the throne of God,
-The woman flews to the wilderness for protection and preservation,
-War in heaven between Michael and his angels and the devil and his angels,

-The devil and his angels hurled down on the earth,
-The brethren overcame the devil by the blood of the lamb and by the testimony. They loved not their live (V.10-110 (This means that they were on earth, died on earth as martyrs),
-the Devil persecutes the woman,
-the woman flew to the wilderness. The devil cast out of his mouth water as flood after the women, but the earth opens up her mouth and swallowed up the flood,
-The devil starts persecuting rest of the children of the women (those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ).

Now if the persecution of the brethren (who overcome) is after the war in heaven and after the devil is hurled on the earth, how can the rapture of the over-comers (Man child) be pre-tribulation rapture, that is, even before the first seal is opened? How can there be the question of overcoming, till there is severe persecution by the furious devil mentioned in Rev. 12.

When the Man child (over-comers) born to the woman is taken up and the rest of the children of the woman who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus are persecuted, who then is this woman and why is she protected and preserved for a period of three years and a half- (when she is neither the one to overcome nor the one who keep the commandment of God and the testimony of Jesus)? Fozman has suggested that she will be destroyed. What ridicule and an extravagant thought! How come that God preserves and protects the woman only to destroy the woman at the end of three years and a half?
(I -little Jayant)am just trying to respond to the two giants, Scott and Fozman, and aggresive Christina has just dropped in!)

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/29/2009 00:58 am

I dont readily believe that Jesus is at all the child of this chapter. This woman is often referred to as the Bride of Christ. He cannot be the son & the husband of this woman. Second, Jesus did not say he would be reborn. He said he would come back in the clouds. THird, Jesus is not the only Shephard of the Old Testament. Other family members like Noah and Moses were also. They all had different jobs that led to the same goals and those males where all related. It is not impossible that a newer leader has been born to fight in the Army with Christ not as Christ in our near future that is related also. Also to assume this is Jesus and disinclude his mother Mary as his mother just simply says folks are trying to make an interpretation fit that doesn’t. You cant say this is Mary’s life so you can’t say this is Jesus. Besides, John did write this as a future warning, a vision of events to occur. To watch out for this woman. He said “There would be a sign in the sky.” There has been. August/September 1996. Bethula aka The Woman in Revelation 12. Yah, hasn’t been in Jerusalem since John of Patmos’ Time. Wont be back ever over J’lem like that again. Check it out. It was all over the newspapers. The crown of Twelve Stars proved she is from this very elect line of Abraham and most likely a prophet, bc in Isaiah 66 she knew her children b4 she conceived them. The sun she was dressed with was only because at that time she was still in labor. The sun was the boys birth sign, but he wasn’t out yet in that scene. That is why the light dresses her. It has nothing to do with her righteousnes. This was a sign in heaven of events unfolding on earth. She had to flee into the wilderness. That’s on Earth! She gives birth and roams the earth? That is 2 signs in this chapter that out right shows that she exists like a real person does. She fled after the baby was born that would still have been back in August/ Sept 1996. If this Woman was supposed to be a symbol of the Church then tell me what happened to the church or Israel 3 & 1/2 yrs later in Jan 2000 that we remember as more significant than the Y2k bug? There is nothing about the church as of 3 1/2 yrs after the sign bc the devil attacked her personally. Why? bc she has something important that she knows and must say to us, bc if it was just about the baby then satan would have left her alone then but didn’t. Satan persecuted her bc he just got his butt kicked out of heaven and he is about to have it stomped on by this womans son and she is the key to her sons uprising. Because her son will mean everything during the war and rule who is left after. Not by Satan’s authority anymore but God’s. Young baby that grew into a child by vs 13 should be about thirteen soon. The baby is still being raised by his mother. How else can he rule the world with a rod of iron? This cant be Eve either. She is even further back in history. Mary was Eve’s direct granddaughter. How much you wanna bet rev 12 is too. That’s prob why ya’ll keep getting past events confused with future events bc they remind you about something done b4. So this must be a parable right? About something past? No. It happened b4. It will happen again. Just knowing you are in the end times must make you realize that God has to send people to help us out b4, during and after the war like this woman, her children, and the two witnesses in chapter 11.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/28/2009 20:33 pm

Agreed on the heart condition implications of your comment.

Now, can you address the “if the rapture is at the 7th trump, then who experiences the seals and trumps that precede it” – theory? And while your at it, maybe a quick look at what those seals and trumps would be in order as well.

And, last but not least, who says there is only 1 tribulation? (There’s the tradition I spoke of earlier. . . . thinking there is only 1) I think I’ve asked that question before, but I preceive that you have been deliberately ignored many of my questions and points.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/28/2009 09:06 am

Fozman,

I understand “knee-jerk”. Been there; done that. No need to apologize but I hate to see a good apology wasted, so.., apology accepted!

A few quick points back at you for clarification. (I don’t have much time presently).

-There’s a good reason why the 144,000 as firstfruits has a “ring of truth” to it; see Rev 14:4

-You said; “I believe I reacted to your suggestion that Rev 12 occurs before Jesus begins to open the seals. In addition, I sense a bit of “pre-trib-rapture” in your voice.”

You sensed it correctly! I’m a pre-tribber all the way. Unashamedly so. Guilty as charged! And a believer in a pre-trib rapture that gets us into heaven BEFORE chapter 5 when Jesus receives the scroll. But don’t let your disdain for orthodoxy cloud your ability to hear something new; even if it happens to support orthodoxy (tradition). My embrace of a pre-trib rapture flies in the face of orthodoxy. Not that I’m proud of this by any means, but rather, orthodoxy did not LEAD me there. I came there by other means. Means such as John 3; John 16; Matthew 13, 24, 25, 26 Daniel 6, 12, Esther, Jude, Ruth, Revelation 2,3,5 and, of course, chapter 12 to name a few. I promise you, none of these means are orthodox but I have found them to confirm beyond any reasonable doubt a resurrection/rapture that occurs prior to the time known as the great tribulation (of the church)and prior to the breaking of the 7 seals.

The fatal flaw of orthodoxy isn’t the sequence of the rapture in respect to the tribulation, it’s the conditions PRECEDING the rapture. The broad-brush of orthodoxy says ALL Christians will go in the rapture while it does absolutely NOTHING to prepare believers for such an event. Tradition sees the rapture as an ESCAPE from the great tribulation but this is NOT ACCURATE. The threatening image of the Dragon positioned in front of the vulnerable, pregnant woman in Rev 12 is NOT a picture of the tribulation of the church. It is a picture of something that PRECEDES the tribulation; a diabolic circumstance that has placed the Dragon in a strategic position of power over the church with no (apparent) way of escape. Those, in the church, who seek to save their lives from this circumstance will lose it (in the tribulation that follows). Those who are willing to lose their lives in this circumstance will save it (in the rapture).

Orthodoxy only prepares Christians to be UNprepared for what is coming. A pre-trib rapture saves you from NOTHING if you have not prepared to be raptured. Our common salvation in Christ Jesus is only a guarantee that we will escape the full wrath of God. There are NO guarantees that we will escape the tribulation. How we respond to the test of Rev 12:4 will determine our immediate destiny:

“The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.”

It is only the Overcomers who will be “ready to face all that is about to happen and be able to stand before the Son of Man.” Lk 21:36

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/28/2009 05:24 am

Response #81 is for both Jayant and Scott. Sorry for it’s length, but I don’t have much time to wrap these things in little packages, if you know what I mean.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/27/2009 09:01 am

Jayant,

I believe you nailed it on the chronological question and Rev 4-5. Very well done; I couldn’t agree more or articulate it any better.

On another note, I don’t believe Israel can be the woman. The manchild she is pregnant with is the sold-out Christians that will be eventually raptured. They are neither formed in, or birthed out of Israel. Rather, they are formed in and birthed out of an end-time church. In addition, the woman figured in Rev 12:1 is a picture of Ishtar. That is what the apostle John would have recognized her as, because it was a common icon throughout his time; and the exact figure was found in all the pagan temples. In the New Testament she represents a compromised church . . . half betrothed to God, half indulgent with worldly lovers (governments, other religions, pagan based traditions, etc.) Her seed is from God (we are begotten/sired by God through the gospel . . . 1 Cor 4:15) and we struggle to come out of her and her worldly traditions. In the Old Testament, God likened the church (the nation of Israel) to the same image, the “queen of heaven” . . . Ishtar, Isis, Astarte, Oester, Astoreth, or whatever else she was called.

As far as the 144,000 as the first fruits? . . . . An interesting way to describe them. It has a “ring” of truth to it. Good thinking, and much on a parallel course with my response to you (#71) about them being of the true Jewish lineage, chosen by Jesus at his 2nd coming. I like that title of firstfruits.

Scott,

Thank you for the correction about tradition. Yes, much of what you mentioned concerning your views on Rev 12 is far from traditional . . . . I cannot begin to express how thrilling it is to find people who have the courage and anointing to challenge the status quo on what has become orthodox. In other words, thank you for stepping out. And, you have my appologies if I responded to a knee-jerk reaction …. making me the jerk (chuckle, chuckle). However, I’m so used to knocking heads with orthodox that when I bump into even the slightest measure of what I consider tradition, I react. I believe I reacted to your suggestion that Rev 12 occurs before Jesus begins to open the seals. In addition, I sense a bit of “pre-trib-rapture” in your voice (in your response to Jayant , #72). I consider those items to be traditional for numerous reasons. Such was my source of the knee-jerk.

Allow me to take this further. Your comment suggesting that I hang much of my reasoning on the last trump is spot on. Well, almost. Actually, I hang it on the best evidence provided by the top three rapture passages (outside the book of Revelation). And since the “last trump” is the best piece of prophetic evidence the Apostle Paul has provided us with, what better place to hang it on? Paul did.

I believe the top three passages would be as follows:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the (last trump) shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the (2nd) coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken . . . (3) Let no man deceive you . . . for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who . . . sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now, I try not to consciously defend a pre-trib, or mid-trip, or post-trib rapture. Defending in-house doctrines inevitably shackles a person to someone else’s opinions. Rather, I support and pursue a “what ever comes before the last trump will be experienced by the entire church”-trib-rapture. Why? Because the rapture is at the last trump.

Allow me one last chance to break this down.

I contend that the only facts provided as to when a “catching up of believers” will happen will occur “at the last trump, at the time of the shout of the archangel Michael, at the time of the revealing of the son of perdition, and after the great apostasy.” These are the only parameters articulated by the 3 most recognized rapture passages outside the book of Revelation. Everything else is pretty much conjecture, based on innuendo’s and traditions.

Here comes the math:

1). The two most recognized New Testament rapture passages are 1 Cor 15:51-53 and 1 Thess 4:16-17. When in chorus together, they provide serious and weighty evidence as to when the rapture occurs. BOTH passages reveal this event is to occur during one of the trumps of God. 1 Cor 15:52 further refines that time to be at the last trump.

2). There are 7 trumps of God identified in the book of Revelation. Obviously, the last trump would be the 7th trump. The last trump (7th trump) is preceded by 6 trumps; all seven make up the 7th seal that Jesus will open in heaven. NOTE: The 7th seal is preceded by 6 seals and will be opened after the 6 seals are opened. (no kidding).

3). All events described in the seals and trumps preceding the 7th trump will undoubtedly occur before the last trump. This should be self-evident.

4). Simple reasoning would insist, therefore, that all events described in the seals and trumps preceding the 7th trump will occur before the rapture. Why? Because the rapture (as clearly noted above) occurs at the last trump. The Apostle Paul says it will in 1 Cor 15:51-53.

5). The “math” should tell us that all Christians alive up-and-to the rapture will experience those events found in the seals and trumps that proceed the last trump.

There you have it . . . . so easy that even a caveman can do it.

Now, ask the question, “What are those events?” The seals and trumps preceding the 7th trump are articulated in Rev 6 through Rev 16. None of them are very pretty. They could easily be called awful tribulation, and may give credence to why the woman in Rev 12 is said (in the Greek) that she is in travail in her travailing (that is to say, a double portion of birth pangs).

As far as Rev 12 is concerned, I contend that it is an extension and continuation of Rev 11:15; and Rev 11:15 begins the last (7th) trump. And I believe pretty much how Jayant described the chronology of the remaining chapters. Please remember, the original penned manuscript by the apostle John had no chapter/verse breaks. It was one continuous letter. Thus, Rev 11 through Rev 16 were originally one continuous train of thought in John’s mind. And since Rev 11:15 is the last trump, simple reasoning would suggest that Rev 12 is also of the last trump.

Now take a closer look at 1 Thess 4:16. Note that the archangel Michael is acknowledged in both 1 Thess 4:16 and Rev 12:7. A “voice” is also found in both passages. That voice in Rev 12:10 is most probably Michael’s since he is the central “person” of said event. Hmmmmmmmmm? My point? These similar items are signature marks which tie these various passages together, demonstrating that they are speaking of the same thing. In other words, Rev 11:15 through Rev 12:7 is speaking of the same events as 1 Cor 15:51-53 and 1 Thess 4:16-17 . . . all hanging on the last trump, because that is what the Apostle Paul and Apostle John hung them on. I think I am in good company when I do the same.

I submit that the overwhelming number of parallel parameters in all three passages (1 Cor 15:51-53, 1 Thess 4:16-17, Rev 12) are solid evidence proving that Rev 12:5 is a major portion of the 7th trump in which the rapture occurs. And if it is of the 7th trump, then it makes no sense that the event occurs before Jesus begins to open the seals.

I would also bring to everyone’s attention to the third most recognized rapture passage, 2 Thess 2:1-4. The events articulated therein parallel Rev 12:4. Note how the “(2nd) appearing of Christ” and “our gathering unto him” stated in 2 Thess 2:1-4 occur after the great apostasy of believers. This great apostasy is pictured in Rev 12:4 as 1/3rd of the stars (believers) being cast to the earth by the 7th world government ruled by 10 (crowned) rulers (horns). There, too (in Rev 12:5), the catching up occurs after a great apostasy where 33.3% of the church allegedly backslides.

Thus, the evidence continues to mount that Rev 12 is an end-time, rapture-based passage which will unfold as the 7th (the last) trump. So it is impossible for it to precede the opening of the seals by our Lord. It comes at the end. In addition, whatever tremendous afflictions manifest before then will be witnessed and experienced by all of the church.

Like I inferred, I don’t like the pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib debates. Rather, I find the issues to be more of a “what ever comes before the last trump will be experienced by the entire church”-trib-rapture.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/27/2009 09:00 am

Jayant,

Wow, you’ve poured out a lot of thoughts! I do have a couple of comments (and I hope I can keep this relevant to our topic verse, 12:1).

I appreciate that you know my position on chapter 12. Your thoughts above have opened up entirely new areas of discussion and naturally, this will lead into new areas of disagreement. However, your reference to Titus 2:1 is timely and worthy!

Permit me first to express a few challenging questions:

Regarding chronology; I personally believe 1 through 11 are strictly such but let me focus on just a couple of points:

CHAPTER 5- Would you not agree that chapter 5 must precede chapter 6? How can Jesus break the seals in chapter 6 unless he first receives the scroll in chapter 5?

CHAPTER 7, 10 & 11- What is the basis for pulling these chapters out of chronology and making them parenthetical? They all clearly transpire within the framework of breaking the 7 seals including the 7 trumpets. How can you pick and choose which parts are parenthetic?

THE TWO WITNESSES- How is it that you place the 3 ½ year testimony of these two at the FIRST half of the last 7 years instead of the second half?

THE 7 VIALS- What is the basis for connecting the 7 vials with the 7th trumpet? Why not connect them with trumpets 1 thru 6 also?

Of course, you know I don’t agree with your conclusion regarding the identity of the woman in 12:1 and I assume your answers to the above will tend to support your conclusion. And, of course, I am eager to hear your response. However, it could take a lot of time and it will certainly spawn further discussion; perhaps too MUCH discussion to stay on this verse. If you want to shift your responses to the corresponding chapters in question, that might be a good idea.., but I’m content to stay here as long as you and the moderators are.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/26/2009 14:07 pm

Rev.4 and 5 are the introductory or foundational scenes of heavenly throne, but even then they are different. Rev. 4 talks about God as creator with a song of prise for that and there the son is not mentioned. the holy Spirit is mentioned as the seven burning lamps before the throne. In chapter 5 the holy Spirit is not there before the throne, but is sent to the earth, but the Son is introduced as the lamb of God. Here God is adored as the re-creator, as redeemer. The book of Revelation is all about the final conflict between God and His arch Enemy, the Satan. The wants to usurp the allegiance of men from God. God alone is worth as creator and redeemer and therefore he brings judgement on the Enemy and those who align with him.

Thus real chronology starts from Chapter 6 onwards. The seven seals are obviously chronological, but we can safely say that the all the judgemental things place within these seven seals. it means the seven seals includes the seven trumps and the seventh trump includes seven vials of wrath. The seven trumps and the seven vials are not concurrent but sequential, as the quantum of destruction is higher in the case of vials. It is one fourth in the case of trumps served as last warning, where it one third in the case of vials of wrath. We should remember that some chapter like chapter 7, chapter 10 to 12 etc are parenthetical. The other chapter are extension of some facts earlier stated ( for example the destruction of Babylon stated in chapter 16, at the time of the seventh vial is further described full in chapter 18 etc. Two women and two cities are there. Apostate church as the whore of chapter 17 is the Babylon 0f Chapter 18 and the True Church as the bride of Christin Chapter 19 is the New Jerusalem in 21 and 22.Thus we cannot think of Revelation in full chronological order from chapter 1 to 22 or even 4 to 11.

The Antichrist is to break the covenant in the middle of the seventeenth week. So before that there is period of 3- 1/2 years when the two witnesses are witnessing. Towards the end of the middle of the week the Antichrist kills them and then come the time of seven trumps and vials as part of the seventh seal.It is the second half of the week. The rapture takes place in Revelation 14:14-16.

The church consists of believers of both the Israel and and the Gentile. Israel has also God’s plan in this later time. Ultimately the new Jerusalem has Apostles as its foundation and the twelve patriarchs of Jews. One fold and one shepherd realized at last.

I believe the woman of Rev. 12 is the Israelite Nation and 1,44,000 are the first fruits of that nation. The rest of the Jews to be saved and amalgamated in the church are the bumper crop. They are all over comers as stated in Rev. 22:7 This is my understanding of Revelation. Any comment? (Titus 2:1)

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/26/2009 08:32 am

Fozman,

I’m not giving you tradition. Tradition does not acknowledge Rev 12 as a rapture text. Tradition does not say that the church goes through the Tribulation. Tradition does not say that Rev 1-11 is chronological. Tradition does not say that only certain Christians will rule and reign with Christ.

You talk about “timeline indicators” but then you reject one of the most obvious ones; apparently because it does not fit your interpretation. Either you must conclude Revelation 4-11 is not chronological or you must come up with some meaningless explanation for just who the martyred souls in Chapter 6 are. Obvioulsy, you have chosen the latter.

Regarding the Satanic possession of antichrist, you have rightly attacked my logic.., my admittedly silly logic. But the point of my silly logic is to show that your logic is just as silly. You have deconstructed my point quite well but you failed to establish your own. (But your assumption that I think antichrist must be satan-possessed all of his adult life is a bit off-the-wall. No, antichrist will be quite evil all by himself before Satan takes possession of him. Judas managed this quite well also).

Your point about the “last trump” in 1 Cor 15 seems a bit presumptous to me. It also seems like you hang an awful lot on equating the “last trump” that Paul mentions with the seventh “trump” of the 7th seal. And, of course, it is a rapture verse.., one of the best! We evidently just disagree on the timing.(Here’s a little food for thought: where does it suggest any place in the book of Revelation that the 7 Trumpets that are blown in heaven are ever heard anywhere on the earth? Just curious).

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/25/2009 22:30 pm

Scott,
In your response to Jayant you are again teaching from tradition. I thought it clearly stated in 1 Cor 15:52-53 that the rapture is at the last trump. Please review posting #69 that I sent. I submitted this as evidence to that end. Or are we to ignore the two scriptural proof texts I submitted? Of course, if you are going to ignore Paul’s word, or chose not to consider such a weighty piece of evidence, then I guess we are done here. Then again, you can prove to me that in some weird Greek way, the words “last trump” don’t exist in 1 Cor 15:52-53, or that this is not a rapture verse to begin with. I’m correctable . . . . not just through traditions.

If we ignore even one relevant verse, then our doctrines are compromised.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:20 pm

Posting #75 is in response to Scott

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:09 pm

And yet Judas was Satan possessed when he betrayed the Lord (John 13:27). Now, how could Satan do that? Would he have to be in two places at once? Or, maybe Satan can be on earth when he chooses (as he was with Judas, Adam & Eve, his tempting of Jesus). Satan obviously has access to the earthly realm. So, why is it so difficult for someone to imagine Satan inspiring anti-X until the time when Satan is removed from heaven? And would someone show me scripture where it says (verbatim) that the anti-X is completely and permanently Satan-possessed . . . as opposed any other many other contingencies that could be suggested? Here’s one possibility. Satan inspires the anti-X with some of his hench-man (demons coming with his authority) until this alleged permanent possession which tradition speaks of. (I can provide scriptural evidence where an angel possessed by God was only seen as God . . . . the presence of the angel not even acknowledge. Assuming the spirit realm works the same for both sides, this would be an example supporting my suggestions).
My point? Satan doesn’t have to be in two places at one time. My scenario never suggested that.
Who knows how this works? Look, I would have no problem following your “logic”, Scott, accept you have provided no evidence (and no one can) that your assumptions are the reality of the spirit realm. I believe you are stuck on traditional thought, which is often void of scriptural support.
No, Scott, I believe I’m tracking your argument perfectly. And it appears you are suggesting parameters that neither you nor I can substantiate . . . they are assumptions. . . . as follows:
1. Anti-X must be Satan possessed all of his adult life (possibly all his life), or at least when he takes power.
2. Anti-X cannot be demonic filled or inspired until that point (which I suspect other Satanists are)
3. The Anti-X is keeping him alive after the death wound.
I do not subscribe to these assumptions, because they are not supported by scripture and verse. They are founded on traditions.
As far as your comments, I ask, “Who says that if the Satan later leaves a revived anti-X man, the man dies? Scripture only supports that fact that the anti-x is HEALED (Rev 13:3,12). Scripture does not state, reveal, or even imply that the ant-X becomes some form of an empty shell, the body being a form of a perverted temple for the devil. For that matter, why even ask that question? You state, “ . . . logic says if Satan leaves his body, antichrist would die again etc.” Scott, logic wouldn’t waste the time to examine such a scenario, because such an alleged event is never raised in for debate. This is only a nice distraction. The question is irrelevant and completely unnecessary.
I still contest that my scenario is quite believable and quite plausible. And I will continue to wait for some solid, distraction-free scriptural evidence to challenge it. Unfortunately, my scenario will not satisfy “drive-by” assumptions. So if you can substantiate your logic with scripture and verse (eg: demonstrate to me that the ant-X is Satan possessed before he claims to be God) then you will have my attention. However, there is no scripture evidence to that end; and any assumptions suggesting the same are not factual, nor provable, nor even probable.
As for Rev 7 . . . People assume that this is speaking of “THE Great Tribulation” and they assume that the term “THE Great Tribulation” is a scriptural term. Both are incorrect. The term “The Great Tribulation” is church made, not scriptural stated. (I’ve ran the term “the-great-tribulation” through my bible software search engine and had “No Results” for my efforts.) The breakdown of the Greek is “those who came out of great persecution/affliction.” Most bible translations leave out the imperative “THE” which would suggest that it is not referring to “THE” great tribulation, if there was such a specific identifiable title to be applied in the first place. There are, and have been many great afflictions of which the body of Christ have suffered. That is to say, Xian history is replete with millions upon millions of martyrs. They obviously will never suffer through “THE great affliction” because they have already been escorted to the heavenly realm, where (I would assume) they are doing exactly what Rev 7:9-17 is describing. Thus, I contend that Rev 7 is speaking of former martyrs who have washed their robes with the blood of X. And until someone can demonstrate to me that Rev 7:14 is speaking of those specifically destroyed in and after the 3-1\2 years, I remain firm on my chronology which you suggest is out of context.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:08 pm

Please pardon my double-post below. I must’ve bumped the Enter key.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:42 pm

Jayant,

Permit me to respond to your post.

“So my question: How do you relate the Overcomers (Man child of Rev.12) and the 1,44,000 Of Rev. 7 and 14? Are they the two different groups? If yes, what are they? What is the biblical basis for that distinction?”

(Before considering my words, it is imperative to recognize that chapters 4-11 are chronological. If this cannot be agreed upon, then it must be concluded that Jesus himself is the author of confusion because no realistic interpretation of these chapters would be possible otherwise).

The Overcomers (manchild) of chapter 12 are caught up to heaven in the Rapture even before Jesus takes the scroll out of the hand of God as recorded in chapter 5. These saints are taken up not so much as a rescue from the imminent Tribulation, but from an intractable, dangerous situation that is severly testing the faithful BEFORE the Tribulation occurs. But they are also taken up as the new ruling class with Jesus in the heavenlies. (This is why there is a war in heaven).

The saints who must immediately go through the Tribulation after the rapture will be purified by their suffering for Christ. (These are the 5 virgins in the parable who did not have sufficient oil). They will be resurrected at the end of the 3 1/2 year Tribulation and caught up to heaven to be priests unto God. This is recorded in chapter 7 and it MARKS THE END OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION which coincidentally, marks the END of the Age of Grace. What immediately follows is the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. The last 7 years before Christ returns. It is the resumption of God’s covenant dealings with Israel and it is marked by the sealing of the 144,000 Jews who are the firstfruits of the coming kingdom to Israel. Remember, Israel is an EARTHLY kingdom and these 144,000 Jews must survive the Wrath of God for 7 horrible years and remain on the earth to welcome Christ when he comes to reign. Much more can be said about this. (Note: the 144,000 in chapter 14 are the same Jews as in chapter 7).

The key component in this is the distinguishing break between the 6th and 7th seals. Seal 1-6 is judgment mixed with mercy. Thousands if not millions get saved at this time. In otherwords; grace is still available to repent.

However, the silence that takes place in heaven for a half hour is a sobering prelude to the breaking of the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets. The plagues and woes that follow are nothing less than God’s unrestrained wrath. It cannot be stopped nor diminished except by God himself. It is the time of vengeance. This COULD NOT happen during the age of grace which ended with the 6th seal. There is no record of anyone being saved at this time. The 144,000 who must go through this period could not do so without the protective seal of God. This is the time when Jesus says; “But for the sake of the elect (the 144,00), those days will be shortened.”

In a nutshell, the biblical basis for the distinction between the Overcomers and the 144,000 (in my opinion), is that one group has been prepared to rule and reign with Christ from the heavens (via the New Jerusalem). The other group has been prepared to rule and reign with Christ on earth from Jerusalem in Israel.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:41 pm

Jayant,

Permit me to respond to your post.

“So my question: How do you relate the Overcomers (Man child of Rev.12) and the 1,44,000 Of Rev. 7 and 14? Are they the two different groups? If yes, what are they? What is the biblical basis for that distinction?”

(Before considering my words, it is imperative to recognize that chapters 4-11 are chronological. If this cannot be agreed upon, then it must be concluded that Jesus himself is the author of confusion because no realistic interpretation of these chapters would be possible otherwise).

The Overcomers (manchild) of chapter 12 are caught up to heaven in the Rapture even before Jesus takes the scroll out of the hand of God as recorded in chapter 5. These saints are taken up not so much as a rescue from the imminent Tribulation, but from an intractable, dangerous situation that is severly testing the faithful

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:07 pm

Jayant,
My guess (and truly this can only be a guess due to the lack of scriptural evidence to supplement a definitive answer) is that the two groups are different, as if that makes any difference in the grand scheme of things.
I’ll throw a couple of brain teasers out.
I assume the 144,000 are “true Jews” . . . . those of the linage of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob (those who went through the wilderness with Moses). I think this is a safe guess since the passages specifically identifies the 144,000 as being the lineage of Jacob (Israel). This is in stark contrast with the Ashkenazi Jews who MAY equate to Rev 2:9 and 3:9 . . . “which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie.” The later are the offspring of Ashkenaz, the son of Gomar, the son of Japeth, the son of Noah (Gen 10:1-3). The Ashkenazi Jews came out of Russian/Turkey, and make up the majority of those calling themselves Jews today.
Now, only the true Jews had (and have) a covenant with God. The Ashkenazi Jews did not. They only observe & somewhat practice Judaism (in a much perverted form). Thus, they claim to be Jewish as the result. However, I believe they are not heirs to the aforementioned covenant, just as I assume I would not for the same reason. (My only partaking in the covenant promise is through my brother, the lion of the tribe of Judah . . . . because I was legally graphed into the promises to Abraham, Moses, and our Messiah through my acceptance of our Lord’s sacrifice for my sins.)
If I see things correctly, then when Jesus returns, he will be fulfilling that former covenant with the children of Israel . . . . not with Gentiles who claim the blood of Christ. I assume that no one is raptured unless they have received Christ and are the sold-out-dedicated-“bride-Christians” alluded to throughout the New Testament. Thus, even true Jews will not be raptured. If the “bride-Christians” are raptured, and the backslidden half-baked Christians are purged through the 3-1/2 year persecution of the anti-X, then who is left physically on earth to war with Jesus at his return? Yes, there will be those that will return with Jesus . . . . but what of that original covenant with the children of God . . . the true Jews? I assume they have to be included with the events of the Messiah’s return. After all, they are one of the main reasons for his return.
So I speculate and suggest (and I mean this is a total exercise in speculation) that 144,000 true Jews will be marked by Jesus at his return. They will see him who they (who we all) have pierced, and accept him as Messiah. They will come into the service of the Lord along with those who return with Jesus at his 2nd coming. Both Old Testament and New Testament covenant promises are then fulfilled. What part they play in Armegeddon or Christ establishing his thrown is only known by God.
But, that is all a lot of conjecture on my part. Guess we’ll know who’s who when we see it for the first time. In other words, . . . . my response is nothing more than food for thought.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 13:53 pm

Fozman,

Perhaps you’ve misunderstood my point. I’m simply saying that your scenario is highly unbelievable because by logic, antichrist cannot be possessed by Satan until Satan is atleast cast down to the earth (he cannot be in two places at the same time; and if it requires the satanic possession of antichrist’s body in order to “resurrect” him back to life, logic says if Satan leaves his body, antichrist would die again etc. Of course, this gets a bit silly.

I say all that to say it is highly unbelievable that the man antichrist is NOT possessed by Satan during the opening of the first 6 seals.

Permit me to point out yet another flaw I perceive in your position. If you concur that the catching up of the manchild is the Rapture, then I imagine you must view the last part of Ch 12 as the 3 1/2 year persecution of the Tribulation saints. If this is your position, then you are placing the Tribulation during the time of the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal (the very end of Daniel’s 70th week). However, Revelation 7 has these same Tribulation saints safely in heaven before the 7th seal is even broken. It seems to me, that in order to justify this, you must destroy the clear chronology of the chapters 4-11. Is this what you have done?

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 13:50 pm

Scott,
The question may be, “When is anti-X revealed, and when is he completely Satan-possessed?” Are they the same event? In other words, who say’s the anti-X has to be completely Satan-possessed prior to Satan being cast to the earth? And who say’s the anti-X has to be completely Satan-possessed prior to being revealed as the man of sin? There is no requirement of either stated anywhere in scripture. But the facts be known, the revealing may be Rev 13:4-7 “And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast?” 2 Thess 2:3 remains viable. It parallels Rev 12:4 where the 1/3 of the saints (stars) are struck down (fall away); after which Satan is cast to the earth from his war with Michael; after which the man of sin is revealed. There is no discrepancy with what I have suggested, as I believe you are implying.
If Rev 13:4-7 is the revealing, then the thesis that Rev 12 is of the 7th seal remains correct. If this is not the revealing, but the revealing comes later (when the remaining church finally figures out that this is the anti-X), then Rev 12 being of the 7th seal still holds true, and all the more . . . . because both contingencies occur after the casting of Satan out of heaven. Nothing you have suggested provides evidence to the contrary . . . . or at least, I’m at a loss to see it.
Without more solid scriptural evidence, my critique remains the same. Rev 12 is the 7th trump, and in your own words, Rev 12:5 = the rapture . . . . which I believe is absolutely correct. And, I believe it (that the 7th trump = the rapture) parallels 1 Cor 15:52-53 and 1 Thess 4:16-17 because it uses that exact language; the first passage actually equateing the event of the passage to “the last trump”, which is what I was doing.
1 Cor 15:52-53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Could it be that the anti-X does not become completely Satan-possessed until he is “risen” from his fatal wound? The theory is quite plausible and tracks with a sense of reality. Look at it this way: Something gets this guy to rise off his death bed. If so, then everything I’ve suggested (as far as Rev 12 = 7th trump) is accurate.
Something to think about.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 13:14 pm

Well, Fozman, I should keep asking questions to learn more and more. It seems John could have in mind the Rome with its seven hills. But it is opposed that John is talking about mountains and not hills. Well, as you say, Washington DC is also on hills! We must have a city that is built on mountains. whatever it may be, the history says that the Two brothers has selected the site of the seven hills to build Rome. It is unlikely that John had in his mind Washington DC or other cities for that matter.

So my question: How do you relate the Overcomers (Man child of Rev.12) and the 1,44,000 Of Rev. 7 and 14? Are they the two different groups? If yes, what are they? What is the biblical basis for that distinction?

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/24/2009 10:40 am

There was a revelation and and a great sign in heaven. The word appeared could be used for the word revelation. There was a revelation in heaven and there was a great sign in heaven. Something appeared to this women who once did not have the moon under her feet and the sun as clothing. There was a revelation. The Sun was her clothing meaning that she was clothed by the most powereful element which we know today to be God. The moon was under her feet meaning this, the moon is a reflection of the sun, it reflects the suns light so as with this woman her feet or her walk with God or the sun reflects the light. Her walk with God reflects God in her walk. The moon under her feet reflects the sun which the moon get its light. The light that was under her feet is reflecting God. The woman could also be the church because the church was born through Christ. A woman is used in this picture as pregnant-could symbolized the birth of the Church. It could also be the birth of Christ. The crown of twelve stars symbolizes royalty. The crown of 12 stars symbolizes a crown of royalty and a crown of Light. 12 could also symbolize the 12 apostles which is what Christ used to start the Church. The beginning was when Peter spoke up in the book of acts. In Acts 2:14 is says that Peter stood up with the Eleven which added is 12. So again this can be the start of Christ Church. It is a Church that is clothed by God(Sun), it is a church with the moon under it’s feet(reflection of light), it is a Church that has a crown of 12 stars(Royalty, light and aided by a greater power which is the sun and with the foundation of the Apostles(Acts 2:42 Apostles’ teaching). All together Revelation 12:1 has very deep meaning and is heart felt.

By Anjo (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 23:59 pm

I have a little time to write so please consider a couple of points:

The events of Revelation 12 do NOT occur at the 7th Trumpet. In order to believe this, one would have to believe that the man, antichrist, is not revealed as the man of sin (2Thes 2:3) until AFTER seals #1-7 are already broken. Of course, this would be crazy to think that antichrist doesn’t show up until most of the action is over.

Fozman talks about “timeline identifiers”. Well, here’s one. How does Satan take up residence in the body of a human being if he is still occupying his place of authority in the heavens? In other words, if Satan is busy fighting a war in heaven against Michael during the breaking of the 7th seal how can he possibly reign as a human being on the earth during seals #1-6?

Revelation 12 is the fulfillment of 2 Thes 2:3. When Satan is cast out of heaven and down to earth, he enters the body of the man who has already been on the scene for quite awhile. A man who will suffer a mortal wound yet “miraculously” come back to life when Satan enters him. Revelation 12 is nothing less than an amazing picture of the Rapture of the church to the position of authority that Satan currently posseses. It is at once, the de-throning of Satan and the en-throning of the saints. The Book of Esther and the festival of Purim portray this perfectly in type. Daniel 6 does so as well.

Hence, Revelation 12 is the PRELUDE to the breaking of the seals, not the end of it.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 18:22 pm

Jason,

Israel is not the woman of Rev 12. That is impossible. The nation of Israel that “produced” our Messiah, and the same “Israel” that the Apostle John lived through was destroyed in 70 AD. (Israel ceased being a nation.) John penned the words, “and one is” (Rev 17: 9-10) around 96 AD . . . give or take a decade. Thus, the “Israel” you speak of existed during the 6th head, not the 7th. Rev 12 puts the timeline of events into the 7th head.

Allow me to state it this way. The time of the 10 horns who will rule with the beast, the time of the 7 headed dragon, the time of the beast who “was, and is not, (who) is the eighth, and is of the seventh” are specific timeline identifiers. There is only one timeline that will accommodate the chorus of all these figures (working together) and their contribution to world events. The timeline of Revelation 12 is the last trump. The last trump is the 7th trump of the 7th seal that Jesus will open. All these trumps and seals will be fulfilled in the future, because Jesus opening the 7 seals (which include the 7 trumps) are all future events; at least from the perspective of the Apostle John and when he penned the book of Revelation. In other words, the 7 seals (the 7th seal/trump defining the 10 horns who will rule with the beast, the 7 headed dragon, & the beast) are not 1st - century pre-apostolic or post-apostolic church events. And since Jesus, Mary, and the “Israel” of which Mary & Jesus proceeded from, existed during the 6th head (as John reveals above . . . Rev 17:10), then Jesus, Mary, and “Israel” cannot be the representation of either the woman or the manchild of Revelation 12.

Focus on what we do know (those timeline identifiers), and the mystery of the figures of Rev 12 will be made manifest. But people have to first think things through to their logical conclusions . . . . not to their traditional conclusions.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 12:04 pm

If I may chime in again . . . .

Jayant, great questions. Keep them coming!

First, there are many other cities built on 7 mountains, not just the Vatican. Washington DC is one of them, although the mountains are more like hills. I believe St. Petersburg is, too. Many of the world’s capitols are. And if one were to examine their architectural layout, they are nearly identical . . . . possibly suggesting a “connection” on a perverted spiritual level. Wash DC is the exact 180 degree replica of Vatican City when you align the Capitol, the obelisk and the Pentagon. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm? But yes, I believe the “great city” of Rev 17 & 18 to be Rome and her religion. She is a city and a country unto herself. But what of the non-Roman based Xian churches which are half baked and fully loaded with the doctrines, traditions, and customs formed in the “Mother Church?” How are they “typed” in the book of Revelation? I believe she is the woman of Rev 12, Rome being the Harlot of Rev 17.

As for why the woman of Rev 12 is given protection . . . . who says she is? Yes, there’s that 3-1/2 years thing. Then what? I cannot prove it, but I believe her destruction will be made after that time. In, other words, the compromised church will be given 3-1/2 years to be purged, tested & tried, and matured through persecution; after which time she will be martyred. God did this multiple times to the Old Testament church which we call the children of Israel. He knows how to get our attention, and because of this mercy & grace, he will make every attempt . . . . sometimes doing it in stages, escalating things if need be. Take note of Rev 18:4. “Come out of her my people.” And what are His people doing in her in the first place? Yet, He calls them “His people” giving warning and sending chastisement where needed to motivate them to respond.

As stated, I believe the organized “Corporate” Roman-based universal church to be the Harlot of Rev 17. That is where your seven mountains can be found . . . . although not in the text of scripture. In other words, the city and its corporate head that sits between these mountains is the Mother of Harlots (she has claimed to be the mother church all her existence). She is a “Mystery” (her main doctrines are baselined on “It’s a mystery) and she is Babylon the great (most of her traditions and holy days are baselined on the same patterns of Babylonian/Roman religions). Coincidentally, her favorite color as purple & Scarlot (Rev 17:4-5). Now, I could spend weeks unfolding this for people. Unfortunately, it usually only produces a lot of upset people.

But as for the timeline of Rev 12, it must center on the one solid piece of evidence revealed by the Apostle John . . . . one (head) is. That piece of info should be undeniable. Using that as a center point and working back, the world empires that affected Israel are the ones I listed. . . . which happen to be pretty much accepted by most bible scholars. And for what its worth, who cares who the first five are that had fallen? The important matter is who is the 6th and 7th (and the 8th which is of the 7th)? And how will that affect us? (And who says that Daniel’s vision has to be identical to John’s)

Discerning Rev 12 will affect us by warning us of the events that will test both the church, the hidden church, the apostate church, and the world. So, when these events begin to manifest, they will be a clarion call to all that the word of God is true, accurate, and inspired by God. Interpreted correctly, Rev 12 may insulate many from the disillusionment that often blind-sides “Laodecia Christians.”

Rev 12 is a warning. A 1/3rd of the angels (stars) are not cast down by the tail of the beast. Rather, it is a 1/3rd of the church that is cast down. I invite you to watch the following YouTube presentation demonstrating this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nvwM1GDErg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE_QlOoi284

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 11:42 am

This has nothing at all to do with the woman seen here. At most you can demonstrate a power struggle between good and evil here. But looking for understanding a woman of God by concentrating on the evil while dismissing her importance is odd. This chapter is here to give hope in the presence of evil and to bear witness of God’s grace even in the midst of tyranny. Whatever is being discussed currently here should go under the appropriate place. It’s just getting to far away from logic and the actual subject.

By christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 06:49 am

But cmt. 61 is about REV 17, The woman in Rev 12 is Israel.

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 04:32 am

Comparing Scripture with Scripture, to say that ROME is not the city on 7 hills is to commit intellectual suicide.

AT JOHN’S TIME THIS WAS ROME! “the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth (present tense) over the kings of the earth.” (Re 17:18)

“…The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman SITTETH (present tense).” (Re 17:9)

By Jason (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 04:31 am

Further to my last post:

According to you, in Rev.12,
- the woman is the visible Church;
- the man child indicates those of the overcomers;
- there are rest of her children (Rev.12:17)
Again,
-the overcomers are taken up to the throne;
-and the remnant children are persecuted,
-and the woman is taken to the wilderness.
Then who is that woman that is given protection in the wilderness and preserved? Is she the apostate church? But why should the apostate church be given protection? In fact, it is going to be destroyed as per Rev. 17!

By Jayant Christian (wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 6/23/2009 04:30 am