Revelation 12: 1 Commentary
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Loading ...And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
218 Bible Commentaries on Revelation 12: 1
Everybody, I just wanted to say that it has been fun but I think it would be best if I stopped here. I just wanted to show another point of view that might actually end up working out. Keep an open mind and keep studying. Goodbye and God bless.
By
Christina
(wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on:
7/10/2009 15:40 pm 
Foz, thanks for the apology. To answer your question about the beast of 17..This portrayal of the beast here is written after the angels had already let go of 7 last plagues. That is at the end of the story. I am trying to say the woman of 12 dies during the sixth seal (which is another mention of the sun moon and stars) which is at the beginning of the war. Even in Genesis when they mentioned the sun and moon and stars God was refering to real people in that family while discussing the future of that same family. The internet has not pulled a fast one on anyone on this being a real woman bc no one wants to believe it bc of what meanings it would change if I were right concerning what the church believes in many ways, but I don’t think this should threaten anyone. Like I said.. there was always something in the pages of the bible about prophecy that we would one day come to understand and that would happen by letting go of a few misconceptions. And Jayant might not be able to find much about the sun, moon and stars but try googling the phrase “woman in travail”. She is all over the bible. All over almost every end time prophecy. So I think the connection between 12 & 17 is only satan and that he affects both partys but I would agree with you on the fact that it would be very important to be wary of the differences of the two which are many. As far as testing her..I would imagine that if God took the time to tell us about her ahead of time then he will surely prepare her for what comes her way. She is a prophet.(Isaiah 66) Again, that is how she knew her children b4 they were born. Find the woman in travail text. Read it with your understanding. then stop and read it with my understanding. Her being real..You might be surprized.
By
Christina
(wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/9/2009 19:25 pm
Jayant,
Which church might that be. There’s 7 types of them list in Rev 2 through Rev 3. The last church is spit out of God’s mouth. Don’t think that one will be his bride. She is to be tried in the fire, according to Jesus.
Until people can explain the parameters I’ve brought to light, I simply cannot put any confidence into the convenient statements being made.
I thought the entire purpose of these blogs is to dig into scripture (ALL OF SCRIPTURE) and weigh them against all contingencies.
That isn’t happening.
Christina,
I stand corrected concerning your expression of the age of this so called prophetess. I found your blog #86 somewhat confusing, and I misinterpreted what you said (my mistake). Thank you for your correction.
As far as being “long winded” . . . . your missing my approach. Scripture is interpreted line upon line, precept upon precept. Systematic logical reasoning requires the same time & carefulness. I employ a rigorous standard when exploring God’s word, especially the prophetic. All scripture must fit, all scripture and its content must be addressed and justified. I am thorough, if not simplys out of respect for God’s word and those I share it with. I feel God would require no less from me.
As far as our conversation . . . . what I do not understand, is what part of the 10 horns (10 kings) on a 7 headed beast (end-time world government) is not understood? As a student of scripture, I thought you’d see these two figures/metaphors being specifically identified and explained. God gave the decipher of these two figures in Rev 17. I assume He did it to assist us unravel Rev 12 (and the rest of the book). To ignore it would be to ignore God’s word and His purposes for having these facts penned. Maybe he placed these deciphers there so we would recognize the signs of the times when they manifest. I suspect it would also help His people from running after those who would exalt themselves a prophet or prophetess, deceiving well meaning believers eager to idolize anything mysterious if it felt such honored God.
Well, unless the media and all the Internet has pulled an outrageous deception, there is no evidence that the 10 rulers and a manifest world government (of Rev 12) are ruling this planet. (Not yet anyway.)
The text of Rev 12 tells us that the woman is still only pregnant when these two end-time political groups finally do come to power. Thus, how can the manchild have been born back in the late 90’s (your words were, “She fled after the baby was born that would still have been back in August/ Sept 1996.”) when scripture tells us he/it (the manchild) will not be born until AFTER the 10 rulers and the last world government come to power?
I really do not know how to ask this any simpler.
As a student of scripture, I hope you’d respect God’s deciphers (Rev 17) for these scriptures and at least attempt to address these blatant discrepancies with other scriptures. Until I receive scriptural correction, I’m reluctant to embrace those news paper articles you mentioned that spoke of Virgo, and however this alleged prophetess is made known to the world.
Ps. I apologize if you think I called you an occultist, I did not. The truth be known, the majority of Christians ignorantly participate in the Occult. Most do not realizing the majority of Christian traditions & customs originated from the Occult as opposed to the Hebraic-Christian-based church practiced by the Apostles & disciples of Christ. There is a reason it is called the Roman Universal Church.
If people are running after the mysterious (the word Occult means, the mysterious), and they are running after it without testing the spirit or because it has a warm & fuzzy religious/spiritual feeling to it, then it rates as “mysterious”. A prophetess with no substantial proof is running after the mysterious. The church of Christ is full of such this.
Once again I would submit that the church of Jesus Christ is His bride and so she cannot be the WOMAN of Rev.12.
Secondly, the only other place we have the reference of Sun, Moon and Stars is in Genesis 37:9,10, where sun is Jacob, his wife is moon and eleven stars are the brothers of Joseph. Joseph himself being the twelfth star. here is the clear indication of the nation of Israel.
In keeping with the number of prophesies in the Bible about the nation of Israel, we cannot avoid the resurgence and revival of the nation of Israel in 1948! This is something unbelievable to human eyes!
It seems to me that before the establishment of Nation of Israel in 1948,the biblical scholars might have been skeptical about the fulfillment of the prophesies about Israel and they interpreted them spiritually to support the scriptures.
God has his plan about Israel and also about the Church that includes Israel as well. In the end time Israel will be in the front line to be finally brought in the one fold!
By
Jayant Christian
(wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/7/2009 16:39 pm 
First of all, I am not an occultist. I am a student of scripture. I am no more chasing after fairy tales studying it than anyone else. Also, I didn’t mean the woman is 2000 years old. I said she is a descendant of the remnant of the 12 tribes of Judah. In addition, there is a war in HEAVEN with the angel Michael, but there is WWIII on earth that happens.This BOY leads that earthly army.. And there is an over abundance of information that supports what I am saying but you are all so busy chastising me that you never asked me how I even came to my conclusions. The war is on Earth! People are fighting for their lives so you need to start considering the difference between what happens here and what happens in heaven. You want to know what is really bizarre? For all your calculations and study none of the answers ya’ll have presented even came close to making prophecy easier to understand. In fact I found them longwinded and harder to understand than the prophecy itself.. At least mine makes sense. Even if you don’t have the sense to realize it or the aptitude.
By
Christina
(wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/6/2009 18:32 pm
Christina,
First, the woman is a legend . . . . I would not invest my life and faith into even the thought of a 2000 year old woman who is running around making babies. (And dare I ask the question, who’s the father of this alleged child and the alleged remnant?) I would require some substantial evidence that a 2000 year woman is alive before sharing such with my friends. God would not allow this, and doesn’t. Rev 12 is metaphoric in expression, just as it pretty much is in every other chapter of the book of Revelation. The woman of Rev 12 is a figure and type of a soon-to-be-real-organization. The metaphor (of a woman being a religious organization/church system) is used throughout scripture; both Old Testament and New Testament. 2000 year old people are not . . . . not even Adam or Moses or Jesus or anyone up to modern day would be allowed be excused the same fate that all other humans are required to experience by God (taxes & death). And the only reason I’m addressing this issue is because I’ve done so with so with many other confused people who love to run after fairy tales and the bizarre . . . . all of them found wanting in the end.
This is definitely Occult teaching. (That’s the kindest language I can find to describe it). I would strongly recommend anyone exposed to this to test the spirit before proceeding one step further. And my gut (or should I say the Spirit) tells me that this may not be the only Occult you are involved with.
Be careful.
In addition: The manchild of Rev 12 does not fight in any war after its birth. Michael does. Read the text. Those of the manchild company are the raptured saints. Scripture seems to indicate that they will return with the Lord to destroy those who come against the prince of peace; after which they will rule and reign with the Lord, with a rod of Iron.
Fozman..
No there isn’t anything on the internet, I know.. I looked too, but it says in Isaiah that you would “see what you had not heard and understand what you did not know”. Even Jayant is here to consider those things. When I read your comment I thought that your points were sincere and very intelligent and worthy of discussion. I do believe she is a real person. I also think that satan is the same beast in 12 is the same as 17, but the difference is how satan views these women. At the beginning she is pregnant, but she is also in labor about to give birth and does. The actions of the beast are marked throughout the war so one reference to the activity of Satan does not necessarily mean you can link the two events as simultaneously, only that they have a common denominator. In reference to the child..if he was born when the confict starts he would not be old enough to fight for many years. He would have to be born years before the war starts..Because even in that chapter it says the boy is born to rule…someday. Bethula is in Virgo. That did absolutely happen in ‘96. If this was a metaphoric woman she could be pregnant for years, but this woman is real. She gave birth whenever it was time and that time was to prepare for the gov’t you speak of. If we are in the end days now I can promise you all the people are on earth right now even if we don’t know who or where they are right now, but they are all here to play their parts when it happens. The woman and child must be too. They are our defense. The child being born as the action starts would actually make his arrival late.
By
Christina
(wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/5/2009 15:58 pm
Jayant,
I briefly looked at your suggestion of the TWO – 3-1/2 year period. I plan to hit it harder over the next few days. Until then, I can say that I think we may have been suggesting close to the same thing, only that we may be different as to when things may start.
What I am suggesting (and what I suggested when I questioned that the 3-1/2 years = 42 months = time, times, ½ times = 1260 days are all same event period) is that the 7th trump and the catching up of the manchild begins the first 3-1/2 year period. The second period would be after the protection upon the woman of Rev 12 is lifted. I suspect this second period is when the anti-X blasphemes God, establishes the mark of the right hand & forehead, and begins his mass destruction/purge/genocide of the world. Thus, there would be two, 3-1/2 year periods, along with a 7 years anti-X government covenant, which is broken after the first 3-1/2 year period; that being the 3-1/2 year grace period upon the woman of Rev 12. I also suggest that the two witnesses will minister during that first 3-1/2 year period (the 3-1/2 year grace period upon the woman of Rev 12).
Much would depend upon when the 7 year anti-X covenant is first established. I must dig deeper, but my initial gut reaction is that this will happen when Satan is cast down by Michael at the last trump, causing him to incarnate into the anti-X. I believe this is when he takes power from the 10 horns (world leaders), coming to power and allowing him to make & authorize said covenant.
Like I said, this hypothesize would maintain the 2 witnesses’ ministry inside the 3-1/2 year grace period and place their demise at the same time the woman is martyred . . . . right at the beginning of the anti-X’s campaign to eradicated the world of those who will not worship him.
It fits . . . . so far. I will have to dig even deeper, especially into Daniel. There is mention in Daniel of the small horn (most consider to be the anti-X) wearing out the saints. This could be the 1/3rd of the stars, or it could be the destruction of the remnant, half-baked believers from the woman of Rev 12. There’s also stuff about when the sacrifice is started and cut off, using some strange numbers, which may also carry some weight.
Should be a good study.
Christina,
When I teach on the woman of Rev 12, (or any prophetic passage) I attempt to harmonize all the prophetic parameters described in the text. In other words, all the parameters must apply to my conclusion, else I find myself in a vulnerable position of not being able to explain EVERY jot and title of the passage. That is to say, if even one of those prophetic elements are not fulfilled, or are ignored/dismissed then I can be confident the explanation of a passage in question has major discrepancies, and is not the correct explanation. ALL scripture must be fulfilled, including those small bits we may consider as non-significant. In other words, if God spent the time and ink to express something, it must be important . . . . especially when it comes to the prophetic. I believe God designed it that way for our protection.
Let me ask you a question. In the case of this alleged woman, Bethula. I’m not sure if you think this is a real person or not from your block. Regardless, you indicate you believe she is the woman of Rev 12. You also indicate you believe she gave birth around 1996. In there lies a discrepancy. Rev 12 has very specific metaphors. First, the woman was to PREGNANT at a time the 10 horns were ruling the 7th headed world government. This is one of the main metaphors. My prior postings all cover where scripture directly explains the meanings of these figures. I recommend a review.
Here’s the problem: Neither the 7th world government nor these 10 world leaders ruling are manifest, especially in 1996. Soon, maybe. But not as of the year 2009, much less 1996. And when these world leaders do become manifest, then the woman of Rev 12 is only PREGNANT and laboring to give birth. (The birth hasn’t taken place yet.) So, if this Bethula has already given birth to an alleged manchild in 1996, both her and whatever she gave birth to are fundamentally disqualified. She gave birth too soon to be the fulfillment of the passage.
In other words, the text in Rev 12:4 does NOT say, “and the dragon stood before the woman which had already been delivered, for to devour her child which was already born.”
We would have to cut out the part of scripture where it says that the woman was travailing with birth pains, not to mention the great falling away of the stars (believers) also described in 2 Thess 2:1-4.
I guess I would feel more comfortable standing before Jesus some day, and he asks me about the carefulness I applied to his word in discerning his word. He will ask this of all of us. I would like to tell him with confidence that I explored all the prophetic parameters, all the prophetic elements, and weighed as many contingencies as possible to find the best representation of how Rev 12 should be expressed. Thus, if even one of the prophetic parameters or elements are not fulfilled, or if it is violated in some manner I have to dismiss it. I am responsible before the Lord for that standard.
I can understand the passion people have to support those they give their allegiance to. However, I’ve been there, done that, and got burned big time, witnessing lives irreparably changed as the result. We will all face that learning curve whether we want to or not, whether we think we will or not. Unfortunately, that learning curve is a function of our own willingness (or lack there of) to self-account; that is to say, to test the spirit on our own as opposed to employing the answers of some religious figure we’ve place over ourselves.
Allow me to state this another way. There is good reason God’s word warns us to prove all things and to beware of fraud/counterfeit. Granted, it is a tough thing to stand up to those in high religious positions we’ve been conditioned to respect and honor. I had to do it with friends who called themselves prophets & apostles. They claimed their teaching was a manifestation of the 7th thunder of Revelation. They could not, however, justify what happened to the preceding 6 thunders, nor why none of their prophecies came to pass to any discernable level. I was pretty much “ex-communicated” from their little community for my questions. That was a few years back. Since then, 4 of the 6 who ran with remarkable doctrine have died. Obviously they are no longer able spearhead this great grass-roots move of God they were allegedly commissioned to fulfill through their alleged prophetic calling. Funny, I stood on God’s word and was dismissed because I was apparently not “prophetic” enough for them. Yet, everything I confronted them with came to pass. Nothing they declared did. I don’t know . . . . color me ignorant, but I always thought that accuracy was supposed to be the main outcome of a prophetic declaration.
In short, Christina I guess I would feel more comfortable if this Bethula aka waited to give birth until after the 10 world rulers are on scene, just like the text specifically articulates. Giving birth PRIOR to these rulers coming on line would nullify any prophet fulfillment. That said, I think you owe it to yourself to look into who this person is. I certainly would not risk my relationship with the Lord or my eternal prospects on some legend.
But I did check out the name, Bethula. In Hebrew it means Virgo (And Virgo is just another name for Ishtar, Isis, Astarte, Astoreth, Inna, and sometimes Juno; all said to be the queen of heaven; the queen of heaven that the children of Israel prostituted themselves to offending God in the process).
I believed I gave a rather weighty piece of evidence in a former blog that just recently, Virgo manifested in the constellations with 12 stars over her head and Drago (the dragon) at her feet. This cosmic procession only takes place over Jerusalem every 30,000 years or so. Thus, it would certainly be a “wonder in the heavens” (Rev 12:1), and have significant purpose if God meant it as and event-specific occurrence needed to help announce the 7th trumpet. All we need now, is for these two constellations to line up in proper alignment with whatever heavenly bodies needed to represent a manchild/king. Not sure what is or will be. Many on the internet have tried. But obviously, the 7th head ruled by 10 kings has not happened yet.
As for a real live person, Bethula . . . . don’t count on it . . . and there was nearly nothing on the internet pertaining to such a woman, if a real woman is what you were referring to.
Jayant,
Excellent presentation on your last blog, and some real solid thought. This is the kind of dialogue I’ve been looking for . . . I’m searching for those things I haven’t considered. In this case, the thought of TWO – end time 3-1/2 year periods of prophetic/apocalyptic events. For some strange reason, I haven’t really considered that contingency; probably because I was taught long ago that the first 3-1/2 years was the ministry of Jesus, who was cut off mid-week. I never really even thought of this possibly being the anti-X being tweaked mid-week. Thus, this is a real possible application. Why not?
Thanks, Jayant . . . .You gave me a lot of good stuff to process, and you could very well be correct in your breakdown. I’ll be taking this one back to the drawing board and kick it around the block a few times to see what shakes out.
Couple other questions:
Have you found where the 144,000 are expressly labeled or called “The First Fruits”? I ask because the term is specific to an offering found in the 7 day Feast of Unleavened bread. The 7 days of Unleavened bread is (as you are probably very well aware of) the festival commonly called Passover. Calling it Passover is a bit misleading. Passover is only an overnight ritual. The 7 days of Unleavened bread is for a week comprised of 3 Sabbaths, two of which are high Sabbaths . . . . and the “first fruit” offering is stuck into the 2nd day of the festival.
Allow me to be more specific.
The 7 days of Unleavened bread is for a week. It is initiated by the slaughter of an unblemished male lamb on the day of preparation, and the partaking there of during the night ritual of Passover. The day of preparation for the Passover begins on the 14 of Nisan. Passover begins on the 15th of Nisan (usually the first full moon closest the Spring Equinox), and ends at the rising of the sun. The 15th is the first high Sabbath of that festival, this high Sabbath lasting 24 hours. The actual biblical “first fruits” is a wave offering that occurs on the 16th of Nisan (I believe toward the evening). The resurrection is on the 17th of Nisan (14th to the 17th = 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb), and occurred long before sunrise.
My point? . . . . According to the original foundation of the term, there is only one first fruit. That would be Jesus. He is the first of humanity to be offered up from amongst the brethren; offered to God as a sacrifice.
As for the 144,000, I don’t see either an element of sacrificed or an example of them being an offered up to God. I can accept them being labeled as the “First Chosen.” But unless that specific term “first fruits” is applied to the 144,000, I would have to say that (at most) they are the “first fruits” in only a very qualified way, and that only because is sounds kind of cool. Regardless, I cannot (as of yet) see them as a literal first fruits fulfilling what “first fruits” was defined as in the feasts and ordinances of God. “First Fruits” is a very specific term used to identify a very specific and unique type for Jesus.
On the other hand, if you could find me a specific passage expressly calling the 144,000 the “first fruits”, I would gladly correct my train of thought. Please send me such if you have found such.
Thanks again.
Reference to post #101:
Yeah, God is merciful and just as well; for that very reason there are seven trumpets followed by seven vials of wrath.( Seven trumpets are not called trumpets of wrath.)If we say that seven trumpets and seven vials are the same, why not say that even seven seals are also same with them? I am not inclined to believe that the seven trumpets and the seven vials are the same, for the proportion of destruction differs, one forth in the case of seven seals, one third in the case of trumpets and all inclusive in the case of vials. The intensity increases!
By
Jayant Christian
(wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/4/2009 09:00 am
Fozman,
You certainly have a way with words. A very confusing way I might add. If you feel insulted by my comments, how should I feel about yours? I have answered you plainly. I have told you I don’t agree with your conclusion that the Last Trump mentioned by Paul has anything to do with the 7th Trump of Revelation. Somehow, you are convinced they’re the same. (I think you must be using pathetically poor exegesis).
But how do you expect me to answer to a conclusion I don’t agree with? I will indulge you a bit longer. I will read the question back to you as suggested and then if necessary, you can walk me through it any way you like. My remarks will be in [CAPS]. Here goes:
“If the rapture is the last trump [ACCORDING TO 1 COR 15] (knowing [ASSUMING] the last trump [OF 1 COR 15] is the7th trump [OF REV 11], which is [PART OF] the last seal Jesus opens), then who experiences the seals and trumps that precede it since no one is raptured until the last trump?” [ACCORDING TO YOUR SCENARIO, EVERYBODY WHO IS ON THE EARTH WILL EXPERIENCE THE SEALS AND TRUMPS IN SOME WAY, BUT YOUR SCENARIO IS SIMPLY WRONG] And what does a quick glance at the contents of these seals & trumps reveal (as to their severity)? [IT AIN’T GOOD. BUT WHAT’S THE POINT?]
If I’m at all guilty of “dancing” as you say, it’s only because you are leading. I will say it again. Your question makes no sense to me. If you wish to debunk my position, then ask me questions about MY position. Don’t ask me questions about YOUR position. If you want to discuss the relevance (or lack thereof) between the Last Trump and the 7th Trump, I say fine, let’s do it; but nothing you’ve put forth so far is anywhere near convincing so the burden of proof is on you to show that Paul was talking specifically about the 7th trump of judgment in Revelation and that there could not possibly be any other trumpet blasts between now and then. Good luck.
I will tell you straight up that I don’t know what trump Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15. I have some ideas but I don’t know for certain. I find it interesting that you can take two completely separate books of the Bible and conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that a trumpet blast in one is the very same blast as in the other. But when one book (Rev) all by itself speaks specifically of persecuted saints in two separate chapters (6 and 12 and others) you conclude beyond a shadow of doubt that they are NOT the same saints. Like I said; poor exegesis.
Please, Scott, stop insulting my intelligence. You perfectly understand the question. Everyone else has. You just don’t want to answer it.
But if you insist on continuing this frivolous little dance:
Which trump do you think Paul was referring to when he identify the “the dead and the living meeting Jesus in the air at the LAST TRUMP?” (1 Thess 4:16 // 1 Cor 15:52)
Maybe the apostle Paul was referring to the 3rd trump . . . . NOPE, that doesn’t quite equate with the word “LAST.”
Or maybe the author who inspired Paul to pen the words “last trump” isn’t the same author who inspired the apostle John to reveal all 7 trumps. Maybe there are some other trumps out there. NOPE, those are the only trumps written about inspired by the one author (God’s Spirit).
(I am open for suggestions as to what other trumps Paul was referring to.)
So . . . . . . . . ., one final shot, Scott. And I’ll phrase it to make it even easier.
ASSUMING that the 7 trumps in the book of Revelation are the same trumps Paul is referring to; and ASSUMING that 1 Thess 4:16 // 1 Cor 15:52 are rapture passages (which you stated they were). . . . . it would be self-evident that the last trump of Paul is the 7th trumpet revealed by John. And thus, the rapture happens on the 7th trump. Assuming both apostles were hearing from God before penning their words, I really don’t think we have to assume anything. It is clear.
So, Scott, just answer the question.“If the rapture is the last trump (knowing the last trump is the7th trump, which is the last seal Jesus opens), then who experiences the seals and trumps that precede it since no one is raptured until the last trump?” And what does a quick glance at the contents of these seals & trumps reveal (as to their severity)?
Now, if you are truly struggling with the question, then maybe you could read the question back to me. I’d be happy to walk you through it. Then again, I recognized the dance from the start. Sad to say, this dialogue will most probably end this way. But it’s good that other people can begin to see the dance steps people take to avoid answering even the simplest of questions.
Reference to post # 96 by Fozman:
I would like to share my understanding about the two periods of 3 ½ years each.
The book of Daniel contains the end time prophesies that were then sealed. One cannot therefore avoid those prophesies while considering the prophesies in the book of Revelation.
I am not discussing the war that is described in Daniel 8 or the seventy weeks prophesy in chapter 9. But it is clearly mentioned that his period is determined or earmarked for Daniel’s people and the city of Jerusalem. But when Daniel wanted to know about the end time struggle, he refers to the period a time, two times and half. (This is certainly one half of the last seventieth week). One should note therefore that God has not still done with the nation of Israel, and she has still a role in the end time, before she is finally amalgamated in the One fold. It is for this reason that we have 1, 44,000 chosen from the tribes as the first fruits. They are mentioned as first fruits and it indicates that a much lager bumper crop is to follow. It is therefore the gates of the New Jerusalem are named after the twelve tribal heads.
The Antichrist is to make a covenant for a week and that he is going to break it in the middle of the week. The middle of the week indicates there is one whole week.
The first half of the week is the time of warning and preparation. The two witnesses are to preach for 3 ½ years. This is the first half of the week. Since they are witnessing, it would certainly not be a period of woes and pouring of wrath. Of course if some wants to hurt them they can bring fire from heaven. They will not allow to rain as it may hinder the work of their witnessing. (Elijah too had stopped rain for 3 ½ years). The Antichrist cannot do anything to them. It is only towards the middle of the week that the antichrist kills the two witnesses. The Antichrist then comes in full sway in the latter part of the week blaspheming God for a period of 3 ½ years. It is in this latter part that the wrath of god is poured on the kingdom of the Antichrist and those who give allegiance to him. Before this the Church is taken up and the nation of Israel is protected and preserved for the one thousand reign of Christ on the earth. Thus I see that there are two periods of 3 ½ years. Thus the seven trumpets are also included in the first 3 ½ years.
If you mark, see that the period of 3 ½ years is differently described. In the case of God’s people it is 1260 days (Rev. 11:3 and rev.12:6) where in the case of Satan and the Gentiles It is 42 months (Rev. 11:2 and Rev. 13:5) Please remember the temple cannot be trodden by the Gentiles while the two witnesses are here with all their power. It also therefore falls in the second half of the week when the Satan has his full sway through the Antichrist empowered by him and supported by the prophets.
By
Jayant Christian
(wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/2/2009 02:38 am
About rapture….I think rapture of church happens before war starts around seal 7. … The coming of Christ to kick butt in final battle is the 7th Trumpet…
By
Christina
(wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/2/2009 00:51 am
Jayant,
I concur that God IS merciful; but God is also just. There is no indication or suggestion that there is anything but pure wrath being poured out during the 7 trumpets (the 7th seal). The time of mercy mingled with wrath was during seals 1 thru 6.., thousands repent and get saved (this is the time of Joel’s prophecy). Those who don’t only harden their hearts.
The time of the 7 trumpets is the time of Zephaniah’s prophecy when NO mercy is given for repentance. The 7 trumpets ARE Daniel’s 70th week and the last half of it is the time of Jacob’s Trouble. It will not be a good time to be on the earth.
BTW: the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls are the very same judgments. There are only 7 (not 14). (No doubt, SOMEBODY won’t agree with that 
Ok, Foz… Obviously, I have a different opinion than you do about “her” identity… I believe she is human, so naturally I couldn’t see where interpreting any of this as Israel would make sense ..But if she was Israel, I still wouldn’t go with the outcome you describe based on history, bc the prophecy in rev 12 is viewed tenderly by God at this junction in time in this verse which refers to redemption. The problem the woman is having here is from Satan which means she has a better chance of being a prophet and a martyr. Which in a sense you could call “destroyed” by the time she dies, but consider the 6th seal again..Moon as blood? Sun in sacklothe? Looks to me like her death (martyrdom)heralds the tribulation. I think she is called to do it and will do it by making the same choice we will all have to make. Her’s is just more public. I think the 5th seal adds proof. The saints and martyrs are calling out for revenge.. God says wait until the number of your brethren is complete. Then there is the 6th seal. My views on the seals, bowl judgements and trumpets are different too. I believe there is no 7th seal of the 7th trumpet. They are separate events. She has not been revealed yet so she could not have died yet so saying how she dies as past tense is really out there. But rev 12 can’t be Israel bc Israel doesn’t die. Victory is in store for that nation maybe bc of her future sacrifice.
By
Christina
(wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/2/2009 00:47 am
May I drop in on one point?
God could have used seven bells or seven drums, instead of seven trumpets! But when he uses trumpets he wants to to send a message. A message of warning, a message to hear! God gives final warnings to the unrepentants. Oh, what a merciful God he is!
By
Jayant Christian
(wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
7/1/2009 17:45 pm
Fozman,
I’d be happy to answer your question if I understood it. I don’t agree with the basic premise that the rapture is at the last trump so I’m not understanding what you are looking for. If your question is meant to be a challenge to my position, perhaps you could restate it and I’ll give it the old college try.
Regarding my point about who hears the trumpets; I raise this simple question because I see no clear SCRIPTURAL evidence linking Paul’s statement with the 7th trumpet. Nothing you’ve presented thus far does this. Your point would be plausible if there was a strong link but (in my humble opinion) there is just too much weight against it from other scriptures.
Regarding the timing of the rapture, I am not suggesting that YOU are attempting to set dates. What I am suggesting is that the rapture/resurrection is a top secret event regarding the day and hour (timing). But if the rapture doesn’t occur until the 7th trump, even a caveman could set his sundial to know when it was going to happen. Granted, this won’t be possible until the 6th trumpet is “heard” but 3 1/2 years is still quite a long time to know in advance just when such an event will occur; especially if the purpose is to keep it hidden from your enemies.
You have rightly drawn a distiction between the TIMING of the rapture and the sequence of EVENTS leading to the rapture. The enemies of Christ care little about EVENTS and their sequence. They either can’t figure them out or else they become bored with them because it REQUIRES faith and they don’t have any nor do they want any. The child of God, on the other hand is full of faith and will be ABLE to understand the (near enough) TIMING of the rapture because he recognizes the events. Jesus wants us to be EVENT-oriented not TIMING-oriented. This is why he gives the saints numerous events to watch for. In effect, he is telling the saints when the rapture is going to occur in a “language” that his enemies will never understand.
Those “christians” who are into date-setting play into the hands of Christ’s enemies.., and perhaps, some of them ARE enemies of Christ. But in my mind, I think it would be completely contrary to the purpose and character of Christ to reveal the TIMING of the rapture.., let alone, PUBLISH it.
(Just as a point of clarification: I draw a strict distinction between the secret timing of the rapture/resurrection and the revealed timing of the return of Christ in power and glory. The (pre-chapter 6) rapture timing is hidden, but once the seals begin to break, even Satan (the caveman) will be able to figure out when Christ is coming. It seems to me, that by linking these two things together at the 7th trump you would be inadvertantly revealing the TIMING of the rapture).
Christina,
If the woman of Rev 12 in any degree parallels the nation of Israel at their destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, then she did not give her life. She was judged.
Israel was judged by God for her many, many, many perversions and for no longer following the commandments, judgments, and statues of God (This reason is specifically stated by the prophets multiple times). Now, it would take me far too long to itemize their apostasy. Suffice it to say that their apostasy (from my research) was beyond measure. Some if it is recorded in scripture. That which is, is quite serious.
And the church and America has long ago surpassed what Israel did back then.
No problemo, Jayant,
In fact, your words gave me pause for thought. I’m always looking to focus my understanding of things, and correction is a key element of that. So, when someone raises a thought that catches me off guard, I work it to its logical end. This is probably the main reason I keep coming back to these blogs. . . . I want to know what people are thinking and how they got there.
You commented that you thought the two witnesses perform their ministry before the rapture, before the last trump. May I suggest that their 3-1/2 years are the same “3-1/2 years // 42 months // time, times, ½ times // 1260 days” that are referenced throughout the book of Rev. Matching numbers, types, and such specifics often ties passages & events together.
I also consider this based on the book of Daniel and Rev 12 both speaking of believers being cast down, and the EVENT of the holy city being trampled down by the Gentiles . . . and when the beast comes out of the pit. I know there is a temptation to make everything stated in these passages as being in consecutive order. However, I see no problem that Rev 11 may be projecting part of this forward, since most of the verbiage dealing with this is spoken in future tense in Rev 11.
Then again, I WHEN this occurs (in reference to all the other events we’ve discussed) is not necessarily critical. It just fits much better for me when we dial the 2 witnesses into that same 42 months referenced everywhere else.
Keep up the good fight.
Scott,
If it gets you to answer my question, I’ll answer yours.
“Are the trumps heard?” My first answer is, “The bible doesn’t say. If it did, I’d be happy to embrace it.” But not to avoid the question, I will answer this . . . .“Who do I THINK will hear it?” Again, I can only guess since scripture is void of that answer, but I could easily see all of heaven and all of hell hearing it, and those on earth who God chooses to hear it.
And in response to your comment on Jesus “hiding the rapture”:
I will agree that Jesus ONLY said that the Father would know the DAY or the HOUR (Matt 25:13, Mark 13:32) of his return. However, the “last trump catching up” was specifically identified by Paul. And that identifier is not a DAY or an HOUR (thus, Jesus’ words are not challenged by Paul). I never suggested any man will know the DAY or an HOUR of the rapture. All I suggested was a specific EVENT; that EVENT which marks the rapture being the last trump. This is not date-setting, and I’m at a loss as to how anyone could conclude from my words (or Paul’s) that it is date-setting. It bears repeating, all I did was restate the EVENT that Paul stated. I do not know the DAY or HOUR of the last trump. I do know I stand in good company when I quote Paul. (Didn’t I quote 3 different passages by Paul?)
Yes, Jesus definitely stated the date & time (DAY & HOUR) will remain hidden. However, Jesus lists multiple EVENTS that will mark the time of his return. Even you made reference to them. And for what it is worth, has anyone noticed that the entire book or Revelation is filled with marked events (identified by Jesus) signifying his return? This doesn’t seem as if Jesus is keeping the season of the rapture a secret.
Now, it’s your turn. Answer my question.
“If the rapture is the last trump (knowing the last trump is the7th trump, which is the last seal Jesus opens), then who experiences the seals and trumps that precede it since no one is raptured until the last trump?” And what does a quick glance at the contents of these seals & trumps reveal (as to their severity)?
Post #90:
I am really sorry, Fozman. Just forgive me.
But I was thinking about seventh trump, especially Rev.10:7: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (the sixth angel has his trump sounded in rev. 9:13) the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants prophets.”
The mystery of God is the Church. While discussing about the Church in colossians 1, Paul says, ” Even the mystery which hath been hid from the ages and from generations , but now is made manifest to the saints.”Paul refers to it again in Ephesian 3:1-10, especially vv,5,6 and 9. The mystery is that Christ in you the hope of glory! Christ is the head and the church is his body. This body comprises of both the Jews and Gentiles
The body of Christ is to be presented in all glory(Ephes.5:27), a glorious church! How? By transfiguration, resurrection and rapture! And this is called a great mystery(1 Cor. 15:51 & 1 Thess. 4:13-18) When will this happen? ” at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Now when shall the trumpet be sounded? In Rev. 11:15, that is after the two witnesses are taken up into heaven. [But mind well, that the Beast which comes out of the pit(which may also have some reference to Rev. 9;1-11)fights with the two witnesses and kills them, is described in Chapter 13 how it comes out of the pit.]But the seventh trump has these effects:1)the Lord reigns, and 2) His wrath on his enemies is poured(rev. 11:15-17 and 18. But the wrath of God is poured in chapter 16. So in between chapter 11 to 16, there is rapture, and it would be before the pouring of the wrath. For the seventh seal includes the seven trumpets and the seven trump includes the seven vials of wrath. No date for raputure is fixed. It seems to me that rapture is mentioned in Rev. 14:14-16!
Seventh trumpet in not some fixed time,but a period, for it is written “In the days of the voice of the seventh angel.” Again, only the mystry of God concludes first and the wrath of God comes next. Please correct me where I have mistaken.
By
Jayant Christian
(wrote 287 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
6/30/2009 17:04 pm
Fozman,
There are many reasons I don’t agree with your equating the Rapture with the Last Trump. I haven’t been avoiding your points, it’s just that I find most of them unworthy of discussion. For that matter, you yourself avoided my point about whether the sound of the 7 Trumpets is ever heard on the earth or if they are only heard in heaven. Seems to be a valid point to ME.
But let me take you down another unusual path.
Do you agree that on more than one occasion, Jesus makes a point to suggest that the timing of the Rapture is a bit of a secret? Have you ever wondered why that might be? It’s naturally easy to conclude that it’s for our own good that we don’t know the timing of the Rapture for fear that we will become complacent. However, the church has never had any difficulty becoming complacent; it seems to be quite in fashion these days so I don’t think that’s why the Rapture is a secret. (I’m tempted to discuss the reasons why but it will not serve our present discussion).
In Post #82 you said;
4). SIMPLE REASONING WOULD INSIST, THEREFORE, THAT ALL EVENTS DESCRIBED IN THE SEALS AND TRUMPS PRECEDING THE 7TH TRUMP WILL OCCUR BEFORE THE RAPTURE. WHY? BECAUSE THE RAPTURE (AS CLEARLY NOTED ABOVE) OCCURS AT THE LAST TRUMP. THE APOSTLE PAUL SAYS IT WILL IN 1 COR 15:51-53.
5). THE “MATH” SHOULD TELL US THAT ALL CHRISTIANS ALIVE UP-AND-TO THE RAPTURE WILL EXPERIENCE THOSE EVENTS FOUND IN THE SEALS AND TRUMPS THAT PROCEED THE LAST TRUMP.
THERE YOU HAVE IT . . . . SO EASY THAT EVEN A CAVEMAN CAN DO IT.
If it’s “so easy that a caveman can figure it out,” it must not be much of a secret!
And I agree that if the Rapture is at the 7th trump, there is very little mystery about when it’s going to take place for it will happen exactly 3 ½ years after the sound of the 6th trump! Or, if anyone does not happen to HEAR the 6th trump, there should be little doubt when it happens because the horrific results are so obvious.
To me, your insistence on this business of the Last Trump is sophomoric. Or, in your terms, cavemanish. It suggests to me that you have very little understanding of what’s really going on in chapters such as 5 and 10. I commend you on your interpretation of the Man-child but I’m at a loss to understand how you can see that truth yet go down a rabbit trail regarding the Last Trump. Do you not know that the saints (overcomers) will judge the world? When do you think that judgment begins?? At the last Trump or the FIRST??
By
Scott
(wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
6/30/2009 02:34 am
Not that it is all that important, but the thought that Satan is God’s “arch enemy” strikes me funny.
God could destroy Satan with a thought. So, is there really an issue of conflict between the two? In other words, since there is no comparison in authority, could we even use the words “arch enemy”? I think a more appropriate rendering is that Satan is God’s lap dog (if that much). He’s no more than a tool in God’s arsenal to be used of God in the making and maturing of His creation (shaping & testing humanity). No doubt, that “tool” will be discarded (to hell) some day because it will become totally useless to God when He wraps up this perfection process we are in. But as far as when it comes to calling God & Satan arch enemies (like Batman to the Riddler), I don’t think the titles fit.
The conflict is between man (humanity) and Satan. Thus, Satan is man’s arch enemy who continually attempts to usurp the authority meant for man. Jayant articulated it well when he said Satan attempts to put enmity between God and man. That leaves man with a choice (God’s choice has already been made, as seen with His efforts of redemption).
And the “last man” (or “last Adam,” as he is referred to . . . 1 Cor 15:45) was faced with that choice by entering fully into that conflict with Satan and staying the course; his blood now available to us.
I think that is where that “arch enemy” thing is unfolding as one attempts to bruise a heel, the other to crush a headship (Gen 3:15).
Just some food for thought . . . .
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
6/29/2009 11:16 am
Couple of other thoughts for anyone still out there.
For what it’s worth, there are actually three women main “typed” or “typified” in the book of Revelation. 1) The woman of Rev 12, 2) The bride in Rev 19 (the New Jerusalem), 3) The Great Mother Harlot (Babylon the Great) of Rev 17 who is probably the Babylon of Rev 18. Rev 18 is where God attempts to call His people out of some religious system (Rev 18:4). “Come out of her, my people . . . .” (The remaining less-noticed women would be the harlots who are the daughters of the Mother of Harlots – Rev 17:5)
I believe the “Great Mother Harlot/Babylon the Great” of Rev 17:1-5 is the corporate head of the Roman-based universal church that has manipulated and ruled over world kings and monarchs for most of her existence. The figure is specified with great metaphorical detail in order to identify her to all Xian’s throughout the New Testament dispensation. Notice how she is called the “Mother” of harlots (Rev 17:5). . . . implying that God sees her offspring as harlots similar to how He sees her as the “great whore” (Rev 17:l). Hmmmmmmmm? Who might that offspring be?
There is a definite distinction between the “Great Mother Harlot/Babylon the Great” and the woman of Rev 12. I have mentioned numerous times now that history (archeology) has found the Rev 12 figure in many if not most pagan temples that surrounded the Apostle John when he penned the book of Revelation. She was the “queen of heaven,” entitled as Ishtar/Astarte/Astoreth/Isis/Juno/Frya, depending upon what dynasty, country, and/or culture you lived in. She was the fertility goddess of the cosmos. God compared a compromise Old Testament church, Israel, to this figure when Israel found herself spiritually compromised.
The woman of Rev 12 (when identified with the typology rendered in Rev 12:1) strongly suggests that she is a religious system, but not a system specific to a particular sect or denomination (as opposed to the type of the woman of Rev 17, the figure speaking of a specific corporation/entity). Thus, it is most probably that God purposely chose an analogy/figure that would encompass and incorporate all the churches with one fell swoop. She could very well represent all of the Protestant, ecumenical, fundamental, non-denominational churches who have separated themselves from the chief Roman-based corporate head who arrogantly claims to be the one true church of Christ. This “Rev 12-woman” still practices the Roman-based traditions she borrowed form her mother (the Harlot of Rev 17), thus, being disobedient and compromised mostly through ignorance and apathy. She profiles perfectly as the church of Loadicea of Rev 3:14.
This may very well be the design behind the 3-1/2 years of persecution to be experienced by the woman of Rev 12 and her remnant. Could this be God’s grace/mercy to motivate the Laodicea-type X-ians? Dragon fire strategically lit under the tushes of luke-warm X-ians has a way of drawing one’s attentions to the important things of God. These believers have missed the rapture and now must choose if they want to remain as Laodicea Xians (luke-warm and unpalatable), or be tried as gold in THE fire, as suggested in Rev 3:14-19.
In conclusion: There is an apostate church (Rev 12), there is a compromised/Laodicea-half-baked church (Rev 12), and the bride (Rev 19).
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
6/29/2009 11:15 am
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Christina,
In response to your previous and I assume your final posting . . . .
Let it be known that a woman (you called Bethula) “claiming” to know her children before they are born does not a prophetess make. It more often makes for a deceiver/con-artist looking for followers.
In addition, follower of said woman, “claiming” to be student of scripture, who advertises a woman “claiming” to be a prophetess (who has nothing of report verifying, proving, or demonstrating a prophetic anointing) does not a student of scripture make. It only makes said student of scripture an accomplice to a false prophetess.
I’m even more saddening when words meant to help are diminished or dismissed. My presentation of the Apostle John’s words in Rev 17 (that the 10 horns are leaders and 7 heads and end-time world government) was clearly ignored. More so, it was misdirected, either by purpose or by indolence. Rev 17 is John’s specific diffusing of who the figures/characters are of the 7 seals and 7 trumps, especially those figures found in Rev 12. By stating that Satan was the dragon of Rev 17 and neglecting any attempt to examine what John did say, you have affectively made the word of God of non-effect, at least in your mind. How you gamble your faith is one thing, but I’m responsible for anyone who reads this; and I say people must be more careful, diligent, and reverent of God’s word . . . . even at the risk of being long winded.
I’ve always found such interpretation methods most grievous. It’s dishonest and disrespects the time and effort God has people invest into His word. It also detracts from the purpose of this web-site, which is to examine and weigh what God’s word reveals . . . . not what some Jerusalem news paper printed back in the late 1990’s.
And for what it is worth, I still cannot find anything in the Internet about this alleged prophetess. Worst yet, the anemic information presented to advertise said prophetess is completely absent of this person even acknowledging Jesus in any sense.
Truly and correctly has Jesus prophesied that many would come as ministers (people coming in his name), proclaiming Jesus as Messiah, who were actually bringing deception. He also said in the same breath that many false prophets/prophetess shall rise, and shall deceive many. This alleged prophetess so matches what Jesus gave his life to defend against.
As for me and my house, I’d think twice about exalting this phantom or con-artiest to prophetess status. I would first find a bit more proof that this person exists, and if so, I would then look for something of greater substance proving she has a prophetic office. Failure to do so leaves people vulnerable to the aforementioned deception Jesus spoke of.
But then again, it’s your eternity you’re gambling with; unless of course you’re peddling this to other people. I’ve got ocean-beach property in Arizona to sell all of you if this is the standard people use to test the spirit.
By the way . . . . who’s the father of her alleged manchild and her alleged remnant? . . . . . Just a crazy question that needs to be asked in the light of such insanity.