Revelation 12: 1 Commentary

“It seems that this chapter is very controversial but let me take a crack at it.”

Me thinks your crack is full of holes.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/18/2009 13:27 pm

It seems that this chapter is very controversial but let me take a crack at it.
The woman starts out as a real woman giving birth to Jesus Christ. We know it is Him because he will rule all nations with an iron rod and ascended into heaven to his throne. When that happens, Satan and his fallen angels are finally cast out of heaven forever and are now stuck unhappily here on earth. (Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and the sea!) Now that the devil is cast down he persecutes the woman who now represents people - either Israel or a church. Now here is the clincher - the great red dragon has 7 heads and ten horns with 7 crowns upon his head. This is the exact same description of the first beast in chapter 13. This beast represents the Holy Roman Empire. One reason we know this is the “power given to him to continue 42 months. This comes to 1260 prophetic years (1 day = 1 year} the exact duration of the Holy Roman Empire (538-1898). During this time the church takes on pagan roman practices and beliefs (I’ve read over 50 of them) and becomes a blasphemous church. It also persecutes many people who don’t go along with church doctrine (the inquisition etc.)
But there are small groups - remnants from the true apostolic churches who manage to hide out and keep the faith and avoid the wrath of the roman church (Wrath of Satan). So here is the connection: the woman is now these remnant churches. How can we be sure? Look at the time frame for her “fly into the wilderness” -
rev12-14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Guess what - this time frame = 1+2+1/2 (3-1/2) years and once again in prophetic years it comes to 1260 years - exactly the same as the first beast.
Now, just so we know that she does not represent Israel or its people we have verse 17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So her seed have the testimony of Jesus, so they are not Jews but Christians. And they keep the commandments of God unlike the roman church who deleted the second commandment and changed the fourth from Saturday to Sunday (the pagan roman’s day to worship the sun god.)
I believe this small remnant of true apostolic worship will be the bride of Christ when he returns. The whore of Babylon (the RC Church) and her harlot offspring (SUNday worshipping Protestant churches) will be “fallen” and the final church will be like the church at Philadelphia, praised by Jesus in Rev chapter 3.
So I guess we will have to get used to going to church on Saturday, and oh yeah - Christmas (Saturnalia - Saturn was a roman god)) will have to go as will Easter (Ishtar - dates back to Babylon), Valentines day (Cupid was a roman god) etc, etc.
Oh well, enjoy it while it lasts folks.

By Jimbo (wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/18/2009 12:36 pm

Tammy, I have never read nor heard anything like that. If there is even a smudge of truth about that I would assume that it is a suspicious version, because it doesn’t make any sense. What makes more sense is that someone is validating themselves and giving themself permission to do something inappropriate. Even if that isn’t the case, do beware of those out there that twist the word of God and mislead many. I don’t know you or your situation, but I honestly became worried for you. Just try to be careful.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 11/1/2009 14:39 pm

Tammy, I’m a Bible college grad and I don’t recall anything like that. But then again, you learn something everyday.

By Jason Elder (wrote 314 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2009 16:48 pm

Is there a verse in the Bible that says “a man should take a woman half his age then add 7 years”

By tammy (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 10/28/2009 15:07 pm

John, it says she flees into the wilderness. Secondly, it does not mention which wilderness. Only that she fled there for protection from a heinous beast.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/19/2009 16:50 pm

John,
That might be a little difficult to identify such a mountain since the event of the clothed woman fleeing has not occurred yet. The event is a prophetic that will occur at the last trump (the 7th trump) when the world is subjected to the 7th world government, governed by 10 kings who will rule with AntiX for one hour. These 10 kings will make war with our Messiah (see Rev 17) and be defeated at his appearing. None of that has occurred yet; meaning none of the 7 seals of 7 trumps have been made manifest in history, to date.
And that being said, the “fleeing into the wilderness” may be more of a metaphor than a literal fulfillment of people running around a desert or mountain; especially if the woman represents the remnant church world-wide.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/19/2009 08:17 am

could you name the mountain and or mountain pass the sun clothed woman fled to. I believe it was so constructed to allow only so many persons enterance at one time. Thanks

By john eberwein (wrote 1 Bible Commentary - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 9/17/2009 01:58 am

You are doing ok so far. I might pipe in from time to time.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 17:54 pm

After reading most of these post’s, I think I have the general idea’s here. Scott believes it has something to do with the rapture and the church, ect. Fozman is determining his views (hope I am getting this right this time)also with the rapture, but more in a timeline sense. Like where which trumpet fits where in accordance to the rapture. I noticed many references about the snatching up of the baby.

My concern with the rapture in this particular chapter is that, as Christina pointed out, the baby has grown into a child. The word “child” is accented. Not to mention that he is to rule on earth.

So if God snatched him, he put him back. Placing this as the rapture doesn’t quit fit with many getting caught in the clouds to be with God forever after. This why I cannot readily link this to the timeline Foz has created. Or that it has anything to do with the rapture of the church.

Scott, I did understand the difference you presented between metaphoric and symbolic. Good parameters there.

Come on, Christina. We know you want to come out and play. You’re usually more fun than this.

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 17:41 pm

Mike,

I believe we have something to work with!

Your statement: “This is one of the most baffling puzzles of all time” is probably right on the mark. The mystery of this woman, (or “secrecy” as you put it) is most profound as are the reasons for it being so. If the Church got hold of this today it would revolutionize everything. But it’s time is not yet.

Prophecy must be rightly interpreted AND rightly timed. If either one is in error, the entire prophecy will be rendered inaccurate. This should not be surprising to anyone but it gets abused all the time.

Start with my post #5. It concerns a few of the rules of interpetation. When the rules are rightly applied, the veil begins to recede rather easily. When the rules are ignored, the veil becomes darker and heavier than intended. Spend some time on that post and see if you can understand it. If you have some questions about it, let me know and I’ll work with you. But this is the starting point. Rules are objective and unchanging. The Spirit is subjective and can be easily misread. To accuratley interpret prophecy, both the objective AND subjective must be satisfied. Lay down everything you know until you understand more of these rules and in no time, the day will begin to dawn.

I’m leaving now to go attend the funeral of a dear brother in Christ.

Shalom

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 16:21 pm

Scott,
Obviously I have missed something. I will go back and reread. I’ve got heart. Just try to be patient. I am still open minded. I’m just trying to call it like I see it so far.. I have very few conclusions. Just suspects in my outline. Hey you can’t blame me. This is one of the most baffling puzzles of all time. Despite my eventual decisions, they even must be proven or disproven with time.
My love for God is more than trying to figure out this wonderful mystery. Even if I never figure this out, I always have Him. I am investing effort out of sheer curiousity. I will not invest my eternal soul on a cold case in a way that maddens me. I would hope this journey brings me closer to God.
If I feel I am crossing that line, I will excuse myself.

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 15:40 pm

Mike,

You may have 3 very honest problems, but your problems do not lie with my position; rather they lie with your sloth. You don’t know my position because you have not examined it. The nature of your questions prove so. If this sounds arrogant to you, I apologize; it is not intended to be. However, I’m not going to run around in circles with anyone who’s just playing around with matters so important. If you just want someone to tickle your ears, you won’t have any trouble finding them. They will find you. It takes no work at all.

If you are not playing, then prove it.., do the homework.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 13:57 pm

Scott,

Silly, I Know, but I have 3 very honest problems with your position with this being the church and overcomers. First, it is no state secret that Gods children overcome and live on. If your idea was true it would not make sense for God to raise Revelation 12 to such top secret status. Something else is going on here. Second, believers and nonbelievers have been overcome and have overcame since the beginning. Nothing changes there either. Lastly, believers resemble more of an endangered species than they do people that give birth.

Fozman, Yes i remember running across that mother goddess explanation. Not sure on my thoughts there so i will pause on that for now. Will get back on that one. Why do I think it could represent the Jews and not the 12 apostle? The apostles died. They do not exist here anymore. And because everything that happens in the war is centered around the Jews. Oh and I did google “woman in travail”. I found a lot of references in the old and new testament. Check out Micah chapter 5. If you still don’t think rev 12 isn’t about the Jewish people then tear it up and get back with me.

This site is so awesome!

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 13:21 pm

Sorry Mike,

It occurs to me from your reply that you are not willing to do the work. This is typical of someone who pursues these matters with their head only and not their heart also. You won’t learn these things from an “outline”. They will take months and years of study. My earlier posts, if you care to examine them, are as succinct as anything can be about prophetic interpretation and 12:1 and 12:5 in particular. The questions in your post #133 border on being silly. You have evidently already drawn some erroneous conclusions and now, based upon them, are speculating erroneously on other matters as well. You are laying a poor foundation.

Perhaps I’m wrong about you. I hope so. But now you have jumped into the fray and are about to be introduced to the “last trump” and how will you navigate?

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 11:58 am

Mike,

What makes you think that the crown on the woman of Rev 12 represents Abraham, Sarah, and their descendants? I’ve seen this “thinking” on some web-sites. Unfortunately, I could not find the reasoning, scripture, or data that would substantiate the thought. For all we know, the 12 stars could represent the 12 apostles. I personally think it is used by God to identify this woman as a type of Ishtar. The data/history supports the idea this — this figure was common in the temples that surrounded the apostle John during his day. God compared Israel to Ishtar at the height of their perversion when they chased after this same “mother-goddess.” The label was that of the great prostitute. It could be that history is repeating itself whereas the church is now perverted to the point that God compares her to the same image. And today’s church is.

I believe I laid out a rather clear and systematic explanation of these icons and figures; founded upon scripture and historic data. I cannot think of any other process that would produce a more accurate discerning. You are welcome to examine what I put down; that is, if you can navigate around the “iron sharpening iron” elements. I encourage you to put my work through the biggest meat grinder you can find. I always encourage people to test what I present; the main reason so that any discrepancies I may have missed might be brought to light. I also inevitably get other tidbits and ideas to grind myself – often finding info I never had before.

Sad to say, the controversies that often manifest in these forums do offend people. This is to be expected since most of us have invested our faith, efforts, and allegiance to our positions. Any challenge naturally tweaks our sensibility. But as I see it, Jesus offended many with what he said. That is to say, “offense” is something that will never be avoided.

I’m just looking for someone to work over my ideas and expose any compromises.

Have at it.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 07:24 am

Christina,

Your free speech was never impeded by anyone, nor mocked. . . . and it still isn’t.

On the other hand, your ideas & convictions are subject to question on this blog, as are mine. That is the purpose of these blogs . . . . to dialogue, to test others convictions/ideas, to debate, to agree, to disagree.

I would love to agree with you about this alleged prophet, however, grant me the right to test this individual for authenticity. That is a responsibility the Lord commands (not suggests) on all “students of scripture.” Need I quote the many passages?

And my job would be easier if I could even find a hint that the person even exists. Yet, I have tried three times on Google with no results . . . . and you have not provided me with any evidence even with the many weeks since we started this dialogue. In addition, the systematic reasoning I used to substantiate my position was once again ignored.

If I be guilty of being a fool, it is because I ran after similar imaginations for years; never investigating and never questioning. I paid a great price on many levels in many ways as the result of this foolishness. I’d hope you’d learn from my mistakes and avoid the same outcome.

However, if you heaven bound to embrace such fabrications without even looking, be it far from me to get in your way. Unfortunately, failure to approach this carefully will guarantee you a long and painful learning curve, possibly worse than mine.

Please don’t wait for God to have to send you another “fool” or jerk to attempt to get your attention.

By Fozman (wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 06:41 am

The reason I ask is because it was difficult to continue reading at the hours I can do so. A brief summary would help a lot more. We agree she is not Mary. But why is she the church or the manchild for that matter? It just feels a little far fetched right now. Obviously God is calling for the church to be ready, but he was so specific about the different kinds of people. Even the church divisions. Doesn’t it bother you at all that “the church” is giving birth? The reason I say this is because even the church will be under the authority of satan for a time (WWIII). And it looks to me that God wills it so. So how could the church give birth to anything when God is the hand that rocks the cradle and when it is either raptured or under the gun? and what does the church give birh to?

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 03:52 am

Mike,
I am more than willing, I’ve already done so. If you REALLY want to know, read my postings from #3 to #34. There is nothing in your “basic conclusions” that is not addressed there. Then, if you have a question, I’d be delighted to engage it.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 03:29 am

So your emphasis is that she is the church. Ok I am good with that. I am not exactly a novice, but I am open minded on this subject. Scott, I commend you for your efforts in assisting me with my search. I believe it was fozman who asked (something like this) which church? There are seven. The true church? Maybe, but then how do you explain the crown that represents Abraham Sarah and their descendants?

As far as my conclusion, I don’t have one. Only ideas I am investigating. However, I grew up with a detective as a father and some investivative training rubbed off. I could be wrong about my basic conclusions. That is ok. I want to be proven wrong so if you would be so kind as to remind me why she is the church I would love to reevaluate that. Are you as willing?

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 03:03 am

Mike,

It seems to me you are too quick to discount the possibility of the woman being the church. There has been MUCH written in this thread from the first post onward to strongly argue that it is. Furthermore, you have presented no basis for drawing your conclusion.

I’m not trying to discourage you but this is the thing about prophecy that can be very upsetting: There’s a tendency for the unlearned student to think prophecy cannot be known until it is fulfilled so it gives license to anyone who has an opinion to think their notions are just as valid as someone elses. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are RULES for interpreting prophecy. Not some willy-nilly subjective feelings that someone just happened to make up; but rather, rules that are established according to the very word of God himself. The novice generally doesn’t quite understand this, but the seasoned disciple understands it perfectly.

My advice is to learn the rules, ask a lot of questions and don’t talk about what you THINK; rather, talk about what you KNOW. In otherwords, study until you believe God himself bears witness to what you know. As a general guideline, if you find yourself forming convictions a little too quickly or too easily, or based on someone elses ideas, you probably haven’t heard from God and your convictions are premature. Tuck it away in your back pocket and be patient. If your interpretation is correct, it will become evident in time. If it’s not, that too will become evident.

If you truly have a HEART for these things, I commend you and encourage you to press on because it is God’s desire to make his prophetic word known for it’s time. In fact, if you don’t press on you will be disobeying the prompting of God and many will suffer. But if you only have a HEAD for these things, I suggest you lay it all down right now because Satan will soon get your eyes off of Jesus and great pride can enter your heart and it’s very hard to escape.

Which one are you? I have no desire to debate these matters with someone who only has a Head for them. But if you DO have a heart for the prophetic word you will see amazing things and God will use you to bless and prepare the Body for the grim days ahead.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/20/2009 02:02 am

and ladies…

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 22:24 pm

Well I am not sure on my view yet. I am still reading all of these comments posted on this site, but there are some things I can safely say about this chapter that gives me parameters.

1. It is futuristic only
2. We will understand during the unfolding of the said event
3. The figure here is righteous
4. It will affect the course of WWIII
5. It was important enough for God to veil in secrecy.

The only thing I can say for sure at this point about this chapter is that its very intriging. It opens with what appears to be a visible cosmic sign and mystery that calls for the beginning of the events to occur. Also, that the crown on her head refers to the Jews.

That being said it right away hint to the church not being an option for her identity. Just the Jews and how they affect the church in the long run. It also seems to discount the Mother Mary figure. She has no husband that we know of. She is persecuted. And she is not alive in the last days.

The only other options I saw here on this site and others were as follows:

1. Israel
2. Just a constellation in the sky marking the times
3. A real woman martyr
4. All or none of the above

Since the earlier debates, do any of you disagree with this. Seeing all the ferver from this site tells me this should be interesting to say the least. Fire away, Gentlemen.

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 22:18 pm

“Do any of you feel that you have a sharper view after the combat?”

Absolutely. Always. Combat has a unique way of revealing the truth or error of a postion as nothing else can. But the combat must be against falsehood and error, and not against the Spirit and Truth. That said, it always behooves us to remember that Truth does not belong to us. However, we are bearers of Truth and the things which are revealed, we should cling to and zealously defend. Those who cling to error and foolishness should expect to be scrupulously judged.

The downside of forums like this one is that the Spirit cannot easily be tested and confirmed. I personally believe some people too easily take offense by a particular post. Not because offense was intended, but rather, as a result of the offended indivduals’ own insecurity playing on their emotions. Granted, many DO intend offense; but even then the individual who is secure in Christ will not be easily shaken. If they are, perhaps they’re putting a little too much confidence in the flesh.

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 20:28 pm

Well said. I agree. I must ask. Do any of you feel that you have a sharper view after the combat?

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 18:09 pm

Well, you’ll agree with me in the rapture. “Love’s lips do not always drop honey.” C.H. Spurgeon

By Jay (wrote 5 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/19/2009 01:18 am

“Just be nice.”

What a “nice” sounding sentiment. But unless a few sparks fly, iron remains dull!

By Scott (wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/18/2009 23:42 pm

Wow is right! All should remember that when it concerns prophecy interpretation, it should be by suggestion only. Until all is revealed, no one and no theory or suggestion should be disregarded. Christina has a point. I am new to this site. All of you have good thoughts on was these “signs” mean. Just be nice.

By Mike (wrote 20 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/18/2009 18:07 pm

WoW, and I got booted!

By Jay (wrote 5 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/18/2009 09:59 am

For anyone out there still reading this…Suggesting that this woman is real does not mean false prophesying. It is a possibility. Why does she have to be a conartist if she is real? She clearly wouldn’t be.

If she could see events b4 they happen it would prove she has a strong connection with God and should have the holy spirit according to the bible. You know a good tree by its fruit, and according to this chapter, she is not a conartist or a false Christ.Just bc there is no mention of the father of the baby doesnt mean there wasn’t one. It just means he isn’t worth mentioning. Like I said, single mothers are common now a days. She would be a single mom if her son is born a manchild. The father could have died already knowing her luck.

My suggestion that this chapter is regarding a person we will possibly see with our own eyes is I believe a very intelligent possibility.

People like the ones who posted on this website were very rude. Had anyone asked me for proof politely I could have provided a wealth of it. But “don’t give pearls to swine lest they trample you with their feet.”

The information regarding the truth on this chapter would not be found on the internet. It would not be found anywhere because God has willed it a closed issue right now. That is why it would be better to investigate properly (not the internet)because we should be trying to look for the one thing we haven’t considered yet. Its the only possibility that hasn’t been given the proper attention in accordance with a chapter that is “key” to understanding the rest.

Many already believe we are in the last days. I am one of them. In the end, regardless of my theories or ideas proving correct or incorrect does not excuse the behavior of these vicious hypocrites. I am not leading anyone. If they are, their congregation should read their postings so they can see for themselves their ridiculous behavior. There is no excuse for it.

I have a right to my ideas and freedom of speech. No one has to take abuse for that. And as far as what God thinks about all of this.. that’s his business..not your responsibility.

Making a mockery of all the time people invested in studying prophecy is inevitable bc you do not KNOW the truth. It is worst to make a mockery of God’s word and preach it every Sunday like you really know what you are talking about.

God might have been the one who showed me all the things I tried to tell you, but you never know.. You might look at the news one day and see I was right. Wouldn’t you look like a jerk? Oh wait! You already do. Until then..bite me.

By Christina (wrote 26 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on: 8/18/2009 06:31 am