Revelation 12: 1 Commentary
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Loading ...And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
218 Bible Commentaries on Revelation 12: 1
Julius,
The reason I do not pursue most authors is because they do not address the discrepancies so often associated with their thesis. You can easily see this “attitude” in the past postings of this dialogue. Most important questions I have posed are deflected or out rightly ignored. In addition, I’ve noticed that most authors fail to recognize & consider some very simple “quirks” that so often sets their thesis into circular reasoning.
For instance, who says there is only one tribulation? Thinking there is one long GREAT tribulation has pitted pre-tribbers against mid-tribbers, against post-tribbers. All three “camps” of thought never stop to think that there are multiple tribulations, the very last being the greatest of them all; thus, the reason Jesus calls it THE GREAT TRIBULATION. The result is that when these theologian/author attempt to prove their thesis on one tribulation, they are already at a disadvantage because they cannot formulate a proper timeline . . . . because the foundation of their timeline is compromised.
Jesus lists multiple tribulations that come before the GREAT TRIBULATION. There are wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilences . . . . which he calls the “begging of sorrows”. (Matt 24:8, Mark 13:8) The word means “birth pangs”. These all occur before the abominations of desolations is revealed . . . . after which the GREAT TRIB is unleashed.
I see each seal and each trump as a tribulation in and of itself. They are separate events with heavy outcomes. And I see the GREAT TRIB as only that event when God has removed believers from the earth (either by rapture or martyrdom) and now the last judgment comes down upon the wicked of the earth. Made up of the 7 vials, the GREAT TRIB comes after the seals & trumps. And the “catching up” of believers happens during the time of one of God’s trump (1 Thess 4:16); more specifically, the last trump (1 Cor 15:52).
And if believers are not “caught up” to God until the last trump (there are seven trumps in the book of Rev), then does said believers experience the trumps that precede the last trump (there would be 6 trumps)? And since simple math suggests believers will then experience the 6 preceding trumps, would that constitute believers experiencing the “beginning of sorrows” (Matt 24:8, Mark 13:8) and even the advanced birth pangs (Rev 12:2)?
What are these world events found in the 6 trumps?
Thanks for your “Verse by Verse” site. Interestingly, John Darby’s pretrib rapture basis for 30 years was the Rev. 12:5 (symbolic) “man child” that is caught up - symbolism that he “borrowed” from Edward Irving who had already been using this symbol for the same pretrib purpose eight years before Darby adopted it. I found these details in Dave MacPherson’s bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books online). Speaking of prophecy, I found a rather unusual article “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice” on the Dec. 29th version of Joe Ortiz’s “End Times Passover” blog. The world sure is getting interesting, right? Julius
You are right about the Cumbra Vieja volcano in the Caharies. I Google earthed it and looked at many of the local photos and it looks like the entire south end of the island is a mile high and very loose rock. Plus most of it is underwater so there is a boatload of debris ready to slide away. It will probably go off on its own without any outside influence needed.
As for Yellowstone, it has recently become very active and it is already 40,000 years overdue for an eruption. If it were to be struck by a meteor that would likely trigger the eruption by creating a crater and reducing the overburden allowing the magma to escape - similar to when an earthquake caused a landslide on the north side of Mt. St. Helens causing a northward directed eruption rather than the vertical one everyone was expecting.
That could be the trumpet of rev 9:1-3. This verse even explains how the smoke darkens the sun and sky. The Yellowstone magma chamber has just been found to go very deep into the mantle - easily seen as a bottomless pit.
Its amazing that as crazy as the judgements sound, we can find matching natural disasters ready to happen - all around the same time. It also looks like My Vesuvius is going to wipe out Naples as well in the near future.
And have you seen the show on Bible Code where they found two references to a comet in 2012? One that will possibly hit the earth, not the kind you watch with a telescope. I’m not sure if the bible code theory is sound but I sure find it interesting. It makes me wonder when the seals will be opened. Perhaps sooner than we thought - prior to the tribulation period and well before any rapture. We may find out soon.
Jim,
I’m in much agreement with you assessment of the blood moon, dark sun, etc, etc, etc, stuff. As I see it, if scripture is truly suggesting a blood moon event, only a couple scriptures would address that, and they are not necessarily in the trumpet judgments. Those scriptures that also speak of the sun/moon not giving light in conjunction with the stars falling cannot be a blood moon event. This is where some of the “blood moon” web-site-ministries muff it up. They see a couple of corresponding attributes and then make the mistake of dialing in the entire package. They fail to stop and even consider that there may be multiple events being described; that is to say, both a blood moon event causing the moon to turn to blood AND other catastrophic cosmic events causing the moon to turn red along with along with falling stars. The delineating factor that I see is those passages speaking of the stars falling from heaven in conjunction with a sun & moon description. Sounds like meteor showers, which a blood moon event could never produce. But the bottom line is that I believe there is a great possibility that different passages are describing two or more events; a blood moon may be just one of them . . . but your spot on when you say a blood moon is no description of the trumpet judgments.
However, their affiliation with 2015’s Passover and Tabernacles is no small matter either.
I, too, have speculated as to Near-Earth-Objects; especially Apophis. However, I just saw a program on National Geo where a few thousand pound meteor showed up unexpectedly an exploded in the atmosphere somewhere in the middle of no-where over Africa or Arabia. It had the energy of an atomic bomb. The point is, our scientists cannot discern even big objects until its too late.
Regardless, any type of significant meteor/comet strike that does the damage of Wormwood would most probably infuse the atmosphere with a tremendous amount of debris and dust. The debris will fall back as the meteor showers (falling stars), the dust would affect the light wave-lengths you spoke of. I’ve heard of the moon turning to blood in areas of intense volcanic dust in the atmosphere for that very reason. A large cosmic strike could easily do that, and produce the magnitude of destruction suggested in the 7 Seals & 7 Trumps. (I, too, have been studying both intensely of late . . . . such the reason to challenge the blogs to raise some dust of my own. Much can be gleaned in heated discussions.)
Would that mountain you hinted at be in the Canary Islands off the Coast of Africa? Sounds like one of the Islands is ready to cave into the ocean and send a 300 foot, 500 mph tsunami into America’s eastern seaboard. I also wonder about any scripture that might hint at the Yellowstone caldera popping off . . . . or a combination of all the above. In other words, could a large cosmic strike produce enough energy to explode Yellowstone and collapse that island in the Canary’s? Time will tell.
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)
Posted on:
12/7/2009 10:33 am
I think you are falling into a common trap about the blood red moon. The prophecy is not describing a lunar eclipse. I am assuming you are referring to Rev 6:12/13. There stars fall from the sky and produce a great earthquake and the sun and moon are darkened. Besides studying to be an astronomer when I was a kid I later took over 100 units of geology in college so this stuff is right up my alley. I have been studying the trumpet judgements of chapter 8 and have been looking for possible natural disasters that are likely to occur soon. The star wormwood that falls from the sky could be the apophis asteroid scheduled to come within just a few hundred miles of earth in 2029. If its orbit is angelically nudged it could hit the earth and cause a humongous earthquake and kick so much dust into the atmosphere we would experience near-darkness and virtual winter for years. This is what killed off the dinosaurs and most other life on earth 65 million years ago.
So the sun moon and stars “shall not give their light” and due to the scattering of shorter wavelengths of light, the sun will always look like it does at sundown (red) and because the moon is dimmer, will appear as an even deeper shade of red. While its true that the moon also appears blood red during an eclipse, that is due to the bending (refraction) of red light as it passes thru the atmosphere of the earth allowing it to reach the hidden moon. Interestingly, if the atmosphere was filled with dust, even the red wavelengths would be absorbed and the moon would not even be visible during an eclipse.
Some folks go as far as to assume the sun being darkened is a solar eclipse, but you can’t have them both at the same time. There is often a lunar eclipse 2 weeks after a solar eclipse - that is so common as to be totally uneventful. I can’t believe that a trumpet judgement could be as trivial as an eclipse. I think its going to be way more spectacular. Wouldn’t you agree?
Hope this gets you thinking some more.
Jim
I believe I also know where the mountain of fire that falls into the sea is located - a disaster predicted by scientists for the last 25 years and which they say is already 50 years overdue - kind of like the “Big One” we’ve been waiting for here in So. Cal for 30 years now. I believe it may be waiting for the tribulation and by that time it will be a whopper. NOT looking forward to it.
Hi fozman,
I’ve been thinking more about the Rev 12 / Virgo connection I checked out yesterday and I now believe 5n the connection to the constellation as well as the feast of trumpets. I don’t know why I didn’t recognize it right away. It obviously represents a virgin giving birth to a man child on the feast of trumpets. Thanks again for the insight.
Let me start with the word Kings. I have no problem believing that a king represents his kindom as he is not much of a king without it. The terms are interchangeable. If you can claim that a mark is a chip i can say a king is his kingdom. Its not a stretch - unless you are desperate to disprove it.
As for the 7th head (the revived roman empire) lasting a short space, well the EU doesn’t become official until Jan 1, 2010. It will only last until christ returns. Compared to the original roman empire, this will definitely be a short space.This has nothing to do with Napoleon. By the way, was John supposed to use the word “Gun” instead of sword? What was the greek word for gun in the year 95? Also, it is not the pope that receives the wound, it is the beast - the vatican itself. For a while it looked like the vatican system was dead - never another pope. But it’s baaaaack! The beast is not the pope, the false prophet is. He issues the mark but the term beast is kind of used loosely in revelation.
As for rev 17, thats the future - during the tribulation. Im not talking about that here.
As for persecution fitting other people or empires, so what? John was simply describing the vatican. It fits. Don’t be like the people that say that the city of the seven hills the woman sits on could be any one of over 25 cities worldwide that are built on 7 hills. John was talking about Rome. He shouldn’t have to explain why all other possibilities are wrong. Same for Hitler and Stalin. They don’t fit since they didn’t kill the beast. Napoleon did.
The vatican in fact did exersize the mark of the beast after the council of laodicea they began forced Sunday worship and martyred millions for not cooperating. (remember, 7th dayers don’t believe the mark is a chip but a breaking of the 4th commandment.)
The vatican has had many saints that all must have performed at least two verifiable miracles to achieve sainthood. They are full of niracles.
The vatican did have authority over ALL the nations in the Holy roman empire. Never assume the word all meand every single person on the planet. God only cares about his people and his church. And the church has expanded to include the whole world - there are christians in virtually every country on earth. Remember prophecy is largely told in symbolism so you can’t take every single word literally, but you already know that.
The RCC is not the 8th king(dom). That is the revived holy roman empire, something the new EU is already claiming to be. They claim to be in the spirit of Charlemagne - the first holy roman emperor. When the vatican (actually the new one-world church under the pope) merges officially with the EU, probably during the tribulation, the prophecy will be completed, but it will only last a very short time (one hour) before christ returns.
Please dont give me a literal hour. We know that prophetic time is often not literal. The church does ride on the vatican system which is the second beast or the 6th king(dom).
Those last ten horns have not yet appeared and the vatican is not yet destroyed, but we can agree that it will be. I doubt that those horns will just be persons. It would be hard to belive the the entire vatican could be taken down by only ten kiings or leaders. They will need help from their kingdoms, don’t you think?
So if the first beast wasn’t the holy roman empire what was Daniel describing? He has it coming right out of the end of the roman beast empire. And we know he always used the year for a day so if he was not describing that has already happened, then when your 5th kingdom (first beast) shows up we will have to wait 1260 years before it is finished. And then we have to wait for the next beast, then the 7th king, then the eighth. If thats the case than we might as well forget the prophecy - it’s not for our times.
And how do you account for the exact match in the duration of the beast as 1260 years. Daniel nailed it as usual. John simply referred to his prophecy. In fact virtually all of revelation can be found in the old testament, somewhere. Or so I’ve heard.
Anyway, i hope i have cleared up the interpretation at least to some extent. I learned it years ago but I had to read the chapter many times to see the fit. But it won’t work if your mind is already closed to it so i suggest you clear your mind of preconceptions and take a fresh look. You will feel much better when you realize the word of God is true. He predicted the history of the holy lands from Babylon to the present. He didn’t leave a 2000 year gap in it either. Believe me it is a wonderful revelation to see all that prophecy having happened and knowing that there is so little left before christ returns. (Except of course for that nasty tribulation - or for you the free pass rapture).
In any case i will pray that you see the light. If I’m wrong I guess we will be here blogging for the next millennium. God save my poor neuropathic fingers!
And now in reference to the study you sent me. . . .
First, I believe the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) leadership is without a doubt “antiChrist”. (And I believe the Vatican has been and always will be the fulfillment of the whore described in Rev 17.)
Jesus and the apostles taught antiX was already among them (1 John 2:18: ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.) I conclude from John that there is a difference between “antiX” and THE “antiX”. As for the Popes having the 666 equate to their name and or title . . . . yes, many did. So to, did Nero, Ronald Regan, George Bush, and Prince Charles of Whales. Interesting facts on Prince Charles: his Coat of Arms includes the “little horn”, the Red Dragon, and all the images included in Rev 13’s beast. (As you put it . . . . “Coincidence?”) Google it.
Unfortunately, theologians too often fail to realize there are/were many antiX’s. And too often they seem to believe the word “beast” found in our English translations refer to the same thing. Yet, even the four creatures that worship God around his thrown are called “beasts.” (Rev 4:6,8,9 – 5:6,8, 11, — 6:1,6,8 – and more).
My point? The “beasts” one passage is referring to may not be the “beast” another passage is referring to.
The beast I am referring to is spelled out in Revelation 17:12 “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”
I note that the 10 horns are called “kings” not “kingdoms”. The passage you provided me in Dan 7:24 also identifies the 10 horns as “kings” not “kingdoms”. A word study on the word “horn” and its usage demonstrates a constant throughout the bible that that word “horn” refers to a person, not a kingdom. Even Messiah is referenced as the horn of Israel (Note: horn = Messiah = 1 person. Israel is not called the horn.)
But I see people taking the liberty to morph the word “king” into the word “kingdoms.” And with just a little changing of God’s word the 10 horns become “kingdoms.” Of course, this gives them a new platform they can launch their doctrine from.
Sorry; this is where I draw the line. I will not change what the word says. Morphing “kings” into “kingdoms” changes the word of God. Changing even a jot or a title of God’s word is an activity which has some rather strong rebukes given against in God’s word. It is a double standard, and it eliminates any form of consistency and the absoluteness of God’s word. The Catholic Church does this without a second thought to justify their dogmas and traditions. Have we stooped to their standards?
Want more proof the 10 horns are 10 individuals as opposed to 10 kingdoms?
Examine Rev 17:12 “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten KINGS, which have RECEIVE NO KINGDOM as yet . . . .”
How can a kingdom receive a kingdom? They cannot. Kings receive a kingdoms, just as the above passage specifically states. And the last time I checked, Kings are individual persons.
Examine Rev 17:16-17 “And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore . . . (17) For God hath put in THEIR HEARTS to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give THEIR kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.”
First, kingdoms don’t have “hearts” to be filled with hate. Second, the 10 horns are described with the pronoun “THEIR”. Third, kingdoms do not give kingdoms. Kings do. They give their kingdoms to the beast.
And looking to your scenario, I must ask the question, “How many years unfolded in the events surrounding your scenario of the Napoleon/Vatican conspiracy?” I ask this because I have to account for that part of scripture that states the 7th head that “continues for a SHORT SPACE.” I also have to account for the 10 horns for “receiving power with the beast for 1 hour.” (Rev 17:10-12) “1 hour” is a metaphor for a very “short time.”
I have to account for such things.
Now, maybe you don’t have to account for such scriptures. But I attempt to live by a different standard. My standard is to account for ALL-ALL-ALL the attributes given in scripture, just not those that conveniently support a specific agenda. When I before the Lord, I want to tell him with confidence that I applied such a standard before calling myself a teacher of his word.
I cannot account for Napoleon’s activities (as well as the Vatican’s) constituting “continuing a short space” and receiving power for “one hour.”
Then there’s the comment, “He that leadeth into captivity . . . .” describing Napoleon’s actions to a tee. . . . Well, it also describes most dictators, rulers, kings, and fore the most any other human being (that employs the actions described by Jesus) to a tee. Or do you think Stalin, or Hitler, or Mou never put people into captivity? I find the attempt to pin this specifically on Napoleon simply amazing. Oh, by the way, did Napoleon literally use a sword (since this is supposedly is a literal fulfillment by Napoleon)? I thought they used fire arms back then. And is it the pope or the Vatican corporate that is the beast, because the pope that allegedly died in prison did not die of a sword strike, nor was he resurrected again to rule again (as the beast is said to). And if the beast is the Vatican, well, the entire Vatican corporate was never imprisoned, much less died there. That is to say, all the kings horses and all the kings men were still quite alive and functioning as a corporation.
I quote “And all the attributes given to the beast in revelation 13 fit the catholic church (persecuting the saints - including the woman of rev 12 - during the inquisition etc.) perfectly.”
What?
First, maybe the persecution part perfectly fits the Vatican. But it perfectly fits anyone or any kingdom or any religion that persecuted and persecutes Xians. Or is the Vatican the only corporate body to kill Xians?
No, very few of the attributes of Rev 13 fit the Vatican. I note that the Vatican never did miracles or caused fire to come down from heaven causing ALL-ALL-ALL the world to wonder (Rev 13:13). The Vatican never produced the mark of the beast and attempt to burned said mark into the forehead and right hand of ALL-ALL-ALL the peoples of the earth (Rev 13:17). The Vatican never employed a world wide financial system founded with said mark. The Vatican was never given power/authority over ALL-ALL-ALL kindreds, and tongues, and nations (Rev 13:7) The Vatican never received the worship of ALL-ALL-ALL that dwell upon the earth shall (Rev 13:8).
Please account for these attributes, because I have to.
Finally, the RCC is not the 8th head. Rather, the RCC is the whore. My bible says the beast carries the whore. I must conclude that the 7th head (which is the 8th head) is a world leader who carries the woman/whore; the RCC (Rev 17:7) You cannot be both the beast and the whore. The scriptures I provided you differentiates the two. And the 10 horns will make the whore desolate, naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire; that is to say, utterly destroy her). When was the Vatican finally eradicated by anyone in history. I guess never, cause they’re still here.
Jimbo, the stuff your teaching may be a partial fulfillment based on allegory. But when all the “attributes” articulated in scripture are applies, your system falls apart.
Or can you account for the things I listed above?
Because I have to.
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/6/2009 12:58 pm
Not when applied to the 70 Weeks of Daniel, which nearly all scholars do call years.
In which case it equals 3.5 years . . . . just as I have attempting to convince you of (3.5 years, not 1260 years.)
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/6/2009 12:54 pm
Yo fozman,
I just came across an important piece of prophecy that everybody uses to indicate the entrance of the no timeAntichrist when he makes a peace plan between Israel and its enemies:
DANIEL 9:27 NKJV
“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
According to your logic the Antichrist will only last for 7 days - the tribulation will be over in no time!
Here are a couple of prophecy symbol tables. Check out woman, stars and day/time.
http://www.revelationbibleprophecy.org/prophecy_symbols.html
http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre00symbols.html#time
Now you have a couple more bible authorities that you can write to and call them idiots.
Have fun!
Thanks for the study. I will definitely dig into it.
Also, I just Googled “Virgo Revelation 12″ to check up on the “bogusness” you mentioned. You were correct. The sites I discovered a few years back have either been removed or overwhelmed by all the nut jobs attempting to pontificate their wares. The sites that have flooded this engine search are worse than bogus; some are down right “whacked”.
My appologies for not checking this out to see the current postings on the web. When I get time, I’ll attempt to track down the original sites that I discovered a few years back. They had the star charts and all the particulars expressing their findings.
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/6/2009 09:58 am
fozman,
First let me say that none of rev 14 has happened yet - I only meant 12-13, sorry. The history involved is complex so I will just give you a brief overview of the beast with seven heads and ten horns.
The beast in question is the Holy Roman Empire, controlled by the Vatican and the pope.
Now, we must also reference the book of Daniel which correlates with rev13:
I will start at Dan 7:24 - right after he describes his fourth beast, the Roman empire on which I’m sure we all agree on.
Dan 7:24…”And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.”
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
These are obviously the same reference. The ten horns with the crowns are called the kings in Daniel, but they are identical.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Now, this is obviously a reference to the four beast-kingdoms described by Daniel - Rome, Greece, Medo-Persia and Babylon. Backwards of course since Daniel was looking forward and John is looking back. So what he is about to describe is a continuation of Daniel’s prophecy and there is no reason to believe there is a 2000 year gap in the story.
Daniel is the key which is why so many miss it in revelation. He is talking about ten kingdoms (countries) that arise out of the Roman empire. Among them are three arian countries - the Visigoths, the Ostragoths and the Heruli. These were known as Arian countries and while Christian they believed that Jesus was created by the Father and was less than a true God. The Vatican had issues with this (check the council of nicea) and eventually ordered its armies to wipe them out completely.
Here’s more from Daniel:
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
This new horn is the Vatican or the church power which shared power with the ten new kingdoms o the former roman empire. And as he predicted this horn would pluck up three of those ten kings.
The Great things spoken by the church are blasphemies, as we see later and in revelation.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Now we get two more important clues. The horn changes Gods laws and times - altered his commandments. The church did exactly this - it removed the second commandment and split the 10th into two. (Still in the current catholic bible). It also changed the time of the sabbath from Saturday to the roman’s SUN day.
And notice how long this power would last - time, times and half a time. If you have studied Daniel’s prophecy of 70 weeks Dan 9 24-27) you know he used the day as a year principle, or else he was terribly wrong about the appearance of the Messiah. Now, we know that the holy roman empire started in 538 under the last roman emperor, Justinian when he made his uncle/general the pope and emperor before he left for Constantinople. The HRE was delivered a fatal blow by the sword when Napoleon (the last emperor) had the pope seized and thrown into a dungeon in Paris where he died and the papacy died with him (for a while).
This happened in 1798. Do the math: The HRE lasted exactly 1260 years. Just a coincidence? Did Daniel really think it was only going to last 3.5 years? I think not.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
Here it is again. Line for line with Daniel.
Rev 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
This describes Napoleon’s actions to a tee.
Now lets look at what happens to the Vatican after Napoleon. It took 3 years (after Napoleon was defeated) for another pope to be elected and in 1929 the Vatican was given international status as a nation-state (a religious kingdom if you will) by who else but Mussolini - no doubt a devil-possesd man as was Hitler.
The deadly wound has certainly been healed.
And all the attributes given to the beast in revelation 13 fit the catholic church (persecuting the saints - including the woman of rev 12 - during the inquisition etc.) perfectly.
And not coincidentally, this very same beast IS the whore of Babylon to be destroyed when Christ returns.
So that’s where we are right now, but on Jan 1st, the 7th kingdom will finally be official - the revived Roman Empire - when the treaty of Lisbon is signed. That leaves only the 8th and last kingdom - the revived Holy roman empire when the Vatican merges with the EU. No stretch of the imagination with the Islamic threat looming.
As for the Antichrist - he comes from the 6th kingdom - the Vatican. I believe as Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Knox among others believed 500 years ago - the catholic church led by its “corporate image” the Pope, will be the Antichrist. They believed that all the popes were Antichrists for they claim they are Christ in the flesh (For many shall come in my name). And the title of the popes - Vicarvs Filii Dei - add up to 666 in roman numerals . Another coincidence?
So the prophecy is simpler than most people think. It doesn’t jump all around the world like so many believe. It all starts in Babylon and ends there - from actual Babylon to spiritual Babylon. It is the history of the church from beginning to end - from the birth of Jesus until his return, and beyond.
Well maybe all this correlation with history is mere coincidence. Do the math and figure the odds. I stopped when they reached 4 trillion to 1. BUT maybe you’re better at math than me so let me know what you come up with.
I have to agree with you on most of this, especially the Feast of Tabernacles.
Not sure which sites you visited. I’m not an Astronomer so the “bogusness” would be difficult for me to discern and/or verify. I relied on the fact that there are multiple sites (like a half a dozen) making reference to Virgo in conjunction with cosmic events equating to Rev 12. Multiple sites do not make a thing factual. Thus, this may warrant deeper investigation, possibly through NASA.
Not sure what the sites said about eclipses, either, nor the significance the authors of said sites put on then. There are a couple (I believe) of blood moon eclipses supposed to manifest around 2015. Both Passover and Tabernacles will experience them (the blood moon eclipses). Blood moons are rare to begin with; a double blood moon is nearly non-existent. Having these blood moons fall on the Passover and Tabernacles as opposed to some other months (that year) would seem to have astronomical ramifications (pun intended) when one dials in the math of probabilities. There are a couple sites (if you are interested) that look into this, although I believe they mis-apply a couple of scriptures. Some verses may apply where the moon turns to blood (Joel 2:31//Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. Revelation 6:12: and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood . . . ). Sure sounds possible. An interesting study . . . Google “blood moon” and “Mark Biltz”
Mark Biltz, pastor of El Shaddai Ministries in Bonney Lake, Wash. is one person spearheading this. He’s on a couple of YouTubes. Again, I do not subscribe to everything he says, and he dials in a few scripture thinking they refer to eclipses when they don’t . . . . more probably volcanic activity and/or a meteor/comet strike causing the sun and moon not to give light along with what appears to be meteor showers (obviously, blood moons do not cause meteor showers). Regardless, and interesting investigation for those who have the time for such a thing.
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/6/2009 08:29 am
Well, I googled “Revelation 12 Virgo” and checked out a couple of the top picks. The reference to the constellation was bogus and totally arbitrary - just an asssumption. As for an eclipse, there was no specific prediction since eclipses have been occurring for billions of years so they indicate nothing in particular. The reference to the Feast of Trumpets however was quite significant. Most scholars agree that Christ was born on the feast of trumpets and that his return will be on the same day thus fulfilling it as promised. Now I have no doubt that the woman is giving birth to Jesus. Thanks for the tip.
. . . and no connection to female astronauts.
But if you are foolish enough to make mockery of such events without checking them out, then again, your true nature is once again exposed.
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/5/2009 12:35 pm
Jimbo,
Better late than never.
You asked, “I’m still not sure whar astronomical event you are referring to. I have been an amateur astronomer for 55 years so I am familiar with everything going on up there. Are you referring to the alignment in 2012 - the starting point of the Mayan calendar, or perhaps an eclipse, transit or occultation? Or a strange combination of events? Fill me in.”
Google “Revelation 12 Virgo”
There are many inaccuracies as to the web-site’s conclusions, but the fact that such astronomical events are occurring is mind-boggling to me.
(No connection to 2012 . . . I think)
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/5/2009 12:31 pm
Jimbo,
Bye the bye, I most heartedly share your sarcasm against the Roman Catholic Church, her history, and her customs (Christmas, Easter, Valentines day, etc.)
There is a theory that some historic events are what can be called “partial prophetic fulfillment.” That is when such events track close to scripture prophetic predictions, but do not fulfill all of them . . . which are to be completely fulfilled at a later time. Much of our contention over our dialogue may be witness to that.
Regardless, I find about 95% of historic (Post Constantine era) and modern traditions, customs, and doctrines the result of compromise with the Pagan world.
I also greatly respect the 7th dayers for honoring a literal Sabbath.
Just some thoughts at no extra charge.
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/5/2009 12:26 pm
Jimbo,
Thanks for the comeback. Sorry this response is so long.
First, if 1000 years is a day . . . why not apply this reasoning to what a “prophetic day” is. That is to say, shouldn’t your “prophetic day” equal a 1000 years, not 1 year? But that would result in an absurdity.
Like I said, the 3.5 “times”, the 42 months, the 1260 days are attributed to other end time events; events that cannot reasonably equate to 1260 years. Add to that the events of Rev are to unfold quickly and last a short space strongly rules out the 1260 year theory. (About 1/2 dozen passages in Rev establishing that fact . . . no time to look them up.)
I find it a bit dishonest that such facts and highlights are continually ignored. Must I again raise the reality of the 2 witnesses? The specific events and points of their prophetic profile clearly expose them as two prophets; not 2 nations, not 2 tribes, not a metaphor for Israel and/or the church. The ministry of the 2 witnesses is for 3.5 “times”, 42 months, 1260 days. This is the time period when all the prophecies are to be finished/completed as pointed out in the book of Daniel. The 3.5 “times” period is the finish line; a tick on the clock when the six days of fallen man (a day is as a thousand years) is replaced with the one day ruled by Jesus & his chosen (his 1000 year reign). That 3.5 year period is the Day of the Lord; not 1260 years. Hermenutics strongly favors (if not requires) the word “day” as the language God chose for this book to articulate this specific time period . . . . It’s not a prophetic day. It’s 1260 days which = 42 month which = 3.5 “times” which = the length of ministry of the 2 witnesses, the beginning of sorrows (birth pangs), the breaking of the seals, and the sounding of the trumps . . . . and another 3.5 years for the destruction of those left behind, the establishing of the mark of the beast, and a genocide on a scale this world has never witnessed.
But, alas, I apparently cannot consider applying 1260 days to other events which can only be rationally attributed to “days” (as opposed to “years”) because no one else does . . . . my evidence (which is none other than God’s expressed word) hase been ignored all throughout our dialogue.
As far as the “transformation of Israel into the church” theory . . . . I ain’t buying it. There was no 10 horned–7 headed beast standing in front of either Israel or the apostolic church before, during, or immediately after the birth of Jesus or during this alleged “transformation”. How many times will that fact be overlooked? I’ve only raised it in my postings a half dozen times . . . . with never a comment or a subtenant rebuttal. Here we go again . . . the 10 horns & the beast are destroyed by the lamb (Rev 17:14) after their attempt to war with the lamb. Being a student of history, I’d love some record of this so I can see things your way. But I have never come across any evidence to that effect. There is nothing in the history books where Jesus marched on an attacking army, destroying them. Then there is the denial of John’s revelation to us that Jesus birth was during the 6th head, not the 7th (Rev 17:10). So easy just to pretend such passages don’t exist, isn’t it?
I call it dishonest.
Look, Jimbo, I’d gladly change my mindset . . . but no one, to date, can account for just the few questions I keep raising (I’ve got dozens more discrepancies that are unaccounted for as well.) The most I get is some allegorized folk tales; all of which fall apart when the entire passage in which they are found are examined.
I need substance, not conjecture. My entire reason for these dialogs is to test my understanding. I purposely seek out such dialogues to shake my doctrines down; knowing that if they can withstand any challenge, then they carry a greater weight. I’m completely open to correcting my doctrine, but I’m not planning on exchanging them for such fabrications I’ve seen so far.
If what you brought me was the truth, then you could have easily answered all the questions I put before you. You answered almost none.
Allow me to shake ths “Israel transforming into the Christian church” idea. I would contend that Israel, as a nation, did not transform into the Christian church. Why do you think they were destroyed in 70 AD? It’s because, as a nation, they continued to reject their Messiah. Yes, it can be argued that some Jews were converted. Big deal . . . . so, too did multiple Gentiles, and millions more than the Jews. If I were to apply the same logic, I could teach that the Rev 12 woman did not start out as Israel, but rather, Pagan Rome. After all, more of them “transformed” (your words) than did the Jews . . . not to mention that more of their pagan traditions/customs morphed into Christian traditions/customs than that of the Jew’s.
Hey, I’m still waiting for you to address the questions I offered. I’ll consider only hard evidence. Show me the “mark of the beast” applied to the forehead and right hand of ALL peoples of the world and the resulting great slaughter of ALL the peoples of the world that refused this mark (occurring during this alleged 1260 YEARS). Surely, there should at least one historic record of such a awesome icon burned into their flesh. Or, show me the Jewish temple where “the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place” was built during that alleged 1260 YEARS (Matt 24:15, Mark 13:8). That will gain my attention. (But we know there was no Jewish temple, much less a Jewish nation during that alleged 1260 YEARS.) I wait for history (or you) to reveal to this discussion/dialogue an alleged time of great tribulation, where the sun was darkened, the moon gave no light, and the stars fell, and the powers that are in heaven were shaken . . . and the Son of man was seen coming in the clouds with great power and glory, climaxed by the greatest tribulation this world has or ever will experience . . . . during this alleged 1260 years.
It didn’t happen.
These are future events.
Jimbo, give me hard evidence.
Stop this “prophetic year” stuff. This concept of one day = one year is not a constant in scripture. It was used once in the book of Ezekiel, and then Ezekiel follow God’s instructions by performing the task in days not years, as described. I recommend we use what is more certain and solid. The “days” associated with the 2 witnesses firmly establishes what the spirit of God meant by “days” in the book of Rev. If God meant to apply 1 day = 1 year, He would have included that in the text of Rev as He did in the book of Ezekiel. He did not. He used the word “years” where He meant to use the word “years” as He did with the word “months” and “days.” And at the risk of being nauseating, I contend that the usage of 3.5 “times”, 42 months, 1260 days applies to the word “days.” These time expressions are assigned to multiple events (2 witnesses, mark of the beast) where the only sensible application means “days.”
And as far a looking for a specific corporate Christian body to fulfill the “remnant” church (eg: Catholics, or Methodists, or Luthrans, or Mormons, etc . . . .) there isn’t one. The chosen of God are those who pursue Him with all their heart. Paul did not belong to any denomination. None of the apostles did.
Please, Jimbo . . . . I’d appreciate it if you could simply address the questions so I can weigh them against what God has shown me. If you continue to avoid them, then I must conclude that you cannot. Then, in effect, you have answered my questions concerning the validity of your doctrine.
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/5/2009 12:19 pm
Hello again,
Lately I’ve been contemplating your earlier statement:
I’ve also mentioned the literal “woman in the heavens” celestial event that only now has occurred in the history of recorded man. Certainly, a “wonders in the heavens” for those who understand Astronomy.
Using my background in astronomy I think I’ve finally figured out what you were talking about.
The woman is a real woman, actually standing on the moon. She is lit brightly by the sun as there is no atmosphere or clouds on the moon, the sun is about 5 times brighter than on earth. And the stars above her head are actual stars - only visible while the sun is out if you are on the moon. This fact is only now realized in modern times so the prophecy must be for our times. The number twelve may be used to represent all the stars in the sky, perhaps a reference to the 12 constellations of the zodiac - a common reference in John’s day.
So the prophesy is obvious - it is the first woman to set foot on the moon. So you are right - it has not yet happened but we now have the technology to fulfill it. Can’t be a coincidence!
In fact NASA is planning to send 4 people to the moon for a week in 2018. No doubt one will be a woman.
Wow! Your insight was absolutely brilliant. No need for symbolism here. Literal works perfectly.
Yo fozman,
First, let me give you a reference for the day=1000 years in prophecy. Here is 2Peter8:
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, [1] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies [2] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
If youve researched the prophecies of Daniel you know there are several that require this conversion in order to properly fulfill the prophecy.
In any case, the math is simple. The “times” come to 3.5 years or 42 months or 1260 days, therefore the prophetic time would be 1260 years. Admittedly, not every time frame in prophecy must be converted, but history has proven that some of them must be.
As for your following comment:
Here’s something for your math background . . . . how can the church of Jesus birth Jesus? Jesus was birthed 30 years before the first disciple was gathered.
This whole chapter describes the transformation of Judaism into christianity. The woman is the church which starts out as Judaism (the 12 stars are the 12 tribes of israel) and through the birth of Jesus the church becomes christian (the 12 stars also represent the 12 apostles).
The dragon represents the first beast of revelation - the Holy Roman Empire. The woman (the true church) must flee from the persecution of the pagan rome-infested church for the duration of the Empire - 1260 years. These prophetic time frames are mentioned in rev12 and 13 and it is no coincidence that they correspond with world history.
As for the true remnant church, who do you believe it is? Im sure the catholics believe it is them and every other christian believes it will be their denomination. But the catholic church is the whore of babylon and it and its harlot offspring will be destroyed at the second coming, so it can’t be them. The remnant will be what is left. Maybe it will be the Mormons.
Jimbo
1) “If so, who will the two beasts be assuming they are not here yet?”
Hopefully, the church will know them when they get here. Until then . . . it’s a future thing. Thus, we cannot know as of present . . . . obviously.
2). “how can the woman give birth to a nation in such a short time?”
This would be so less confusing for you if you’d resist putting words into my mouth. I never said a nation would be born in a day. I said the manchild are those Xians in the church that are the bride, who are sold out to Jesus, who are full of the Lord’s spirit. They are not the nominal-half-baked Xians that are only Xians on Sunday. I’ve made no mention of any kind of a “nation” in thesis. You are apparently assuming such things. It’s my belief and doctrine that sold out Xians will be raptured in Rev 12:5, at the last trump. . . oops, did I say that? (Rev 12 is the last trump?)
3 ) Your 7th Daist background was obvious from the start. And I ain’t buying your psycho-babble analysis of my thesis. My model tracks 100 %. Psycho-babble is neither factual, argumentative, nor disproves or corrects anything I points I have made. (I was hoping to test my thesis against some facts . . . . none given me yet.) My thesis is the only model comes close to resolving ALL the prophetic points of the prophetic profile of end time events. The 7th Daist stand (as I read from the Rev 12 study at www.amazingfacts.org) steps on itself at every point, eventually attempting to prove that they are “His end-time remnant church.”
For example, the author first says that the Rev 12 woman is Christ’s Church. I quote: “In Revelation 12:1, Jesus symbolizes His church as a woman “clothed with the sun . . . ” Then he says Jesus is the manchild. I quote: “Next, the prophecy states that the woman is in labor, about to deliver a baby . . . The baby was Jesus.”
Here’s something for your math background . . . . how can the church of Jesus birth Jesus? Jesus was birthed 30 years before the first disciple was gathered.
Here’s more illogical discrepancies:
The author states that Satan took 1/3rd of the angels out of heaven. The bible does not. The bible says it was a corprate government described as a 7 headed red dragon with 10 horns; the 10 crowns being crowned. Rev 17 specifically identifies the 7 headed red dragon and the 10 horns as a government run by 10 leaders. That is to say, the 7 headed red dragon with 10 crowned horns is a government run by man, albeit inspired and probably possessed by Satan. Whatever that image equates to, it is that corporate body that takes out the “stars of heaven,” not Satan. Read the text.
Now, my math background (which is probably more extensive than yours) cannot calculate a man-administered government (albeit, Satan-based) existing before time, much less able to pluck angels out of heaven and cast them to earth . . . . and cast them to a non-existent earth since (most theologians assume) the event of falling of angelic-beings occurred eons in history past, long before the earth was created. I state again, Rev 17 identifies the 10 horns as men, and the 7th head as a king/government. And these same 10 horns align with the AntiX (in Rev 17) to war against the Lamb (Jesus) only to be overcome by the lamb (destroyed by Jesus). When did that occur in history? It didn’t. It is a future event, as are said 10 horns. (Me thinks they will war with the Lamb and be destroyed by the Lamb sometime around the time of Armeggeddon.)
Continuing:
This author at www.amazingfacts.org pedals a “prophetic day” basing it on a manipulation of Ezek 4:6. He literally turns 42 months//1260 days into 1260 YEARS. How does anyone get 3.5 (time, times ½ times) time periods out of 1260 YEARS? Is that 3.5 millennium, 3.5 decades, 3.5 full moons? These same time periods are assigned the 2 witnesses. Did they prophecy for 1260 YEARS and their bodies lie dead in the street 3 YEARS? What, did they live for 1260 YEARS? (Just what kind of math did you practice in your background?)
That author’s efforts are nothing short of hermeneutic malpractice.
Finally, you seem to indicate that the book of Rev is moot. Not if you got it wrong in your interpretation as to who the 1/3rd of the “stars of heaven” are (Note: This is the exact phraseology God uses to identify the righteous offspring of Abraham . . . . “stars of heaven” . . . . and does so, like a about a dozen times.) Thus, Rev 12 takes on an entirely different meaning, and all our collective derrieres are on the chopping block with a half baked church missing the rapture. Not so moot anymore, is it?
My thesis states that Rev 12 is the last trump. The catching up of the manchild in Rev 12:5 is the rapture. The manchild are the sold out Xians in the womb of the church who come out of her (the woman) when all hell starts to break out in this world. They will rule with a rod of iron with Jesus as describe in Rev 2:27. Hopefully, you will be counted among the manchild.
My Rev 12 thesis matches everything expressed and revealed by Jesus and the apostles. It lines up the “beginning of birth pangs//sorrows” Jesus speaks of. It matches the AntiX blaspheming God in the new temple. It addresses the great falling away Paul writes of. It matches Old Testament prophecy.
It resolves ALL the points of the prophetic profiles articulated in the book of Rev.
I think you’re struggling to follow this because your paradigm is set and it refuses to be challenged or even questioned. There may be that allegiance thing to your religious alma-mater getting in the way as well. That’s a tough one to overcome.
If your are interested, I’ve posted much of my thesis in a PowerPoint study on YouTube at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nvwM1GDErg
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE_QlOoi284
You may want to browse it and see how your math background does with it.
By
Fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/4/2009 08:59 am
Scott,
I may be confusing your blog with another on this page and I’ve been moving and offline for more than a week.
As for the two beasts of rev 13 &14, I was asking who you think they will be. Are the 7 heads and crowns and ten horns in rev 12:3 related to the same description in rev 14:1? What do they represent and how soon might we expect to see these future beasts?
“Call me crazy but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.”
Jimbo,
(I’m assuming your post #156 is intended for me).
I wouldn’t call you crazy but I’m not so sure your are listening. Yes, Revelation 13 and later is all still future and I have no idea why you’ve referenced the two “beasts”.
And what are you talking about when you make reference to a “nation born in such a short time”? And how is it that you have concluded that I “make assumptions based on preconceived notions”? I’m thinking that perhaps YOU are the one making assumptions based on YOUR preconceived notions of what you THINK I believe.
You want logic but your response seems a bit illogic.
But this next statement of yours about “early rapturists” is classically (dare I say), ill-informed:
“..then the book of revelation was not written for us Christians since we will all be gone before it comes down, so it doesn’t really matter if we know what the mark of the beast will be - we won’t be here to choose.”
Your “if-then” analysis is glaringly inaccurate, incomplete and .., illogical. And yes, prophecy DOES have to be logical. It is only illogical when we interpret it incorrectly and we can only know that we’ve interpreted it correctly if it is logically consistent with the rest of scripture.
Once again, get back to the basics of prophetic exegesis if you know what they are. If you don’t know, then find out and begin to apply them before trying to interpret Revelation any further.., and stick to it!
By
Scott
(wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
12/4/2009 03:55 am 
Well if Rev 12 is future prophecy then so must Rev 13 and later.If so who will the two beasts be assuming they are not here yet?
And if none of Ch 12 has happened yet, how can the woman give birth to a nation in such a short time? Your argument, while it may be correlated to prophetic verses is simply not logical. You try to take it all literally but it is simply not possible so you make assumptions based on your preconceived notions. From a strictly biblical standpoint it seems to hold water but when you look at history and current events and extrapolate into the future the odds of it occurring as you suggest are infinitesimal. I come from a science and math (and logic) background which is why I tend to skew my interpretation towards what is most likely to happen given the current world situation. I am also seventh day Adventist which also skews my beliefs away from the norm of today. But remember, the norm of today was the pagan of Christ’s time.
And as for not mattering if we know the truth, I assume you are an early rapturist as most Christians, even 7th dayers are, then the book of revelation was not written for us Christians since we will all be gone before it comes down, so it doesn’t really matter if we know what the mark of the beast will be - we won’t be here to choose. This fact makes all discussion of prophesy moot as it will only apply to Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists.
Once again, this is not logical. Yes I know, prophesy does not have to be logical to be the word of God. But I believe that God is quite logical, in his own way and by understanding His logic we can better understand his prophecy.
Call me crazy but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Jimbo,
“I don’t think it’s important that we know it anyway..,”
Probably the first rule of prophetic interpretation is to realize that there is no such thing as an unimportant prophecy. And I cannot think of a prophecy more underserving of your assessment than Revelation 12. Your statement in this regard suggests a very cavalier approach to the text. I note that you make reference to the “concensus of popular interpretations” but you do not consider whether said interpretations are even valid. Surely you must know that the only time the popular consensus is ever close to being accurate is AFTER a prophecy has been fulfilled.., not BEFORE. Ninety-five percent of Revelation is still future- chapter 12 is ALL future- so I strongly suggest you jetison the “popular” interpretations and get back to the basics of prophetic exegesis. That is, if you even know where to begin!
Concerning chapter 12, it is SO important that it holds the very key to unlocking the end time events; their order and timing. In prophecy, you could not ask for more than this.
By
Scott
(wrote 496 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
11/22/2009 04:43 am
I’m still not sure whar astronomical event you are referring to. I have been an amateur astronomer for 55 years so I am familiar with everything going on up there. Are you referring to the alignment in 2012 - the starting point of the Mayan calendar, or perhaps an eclipse, transit or occultation? Or a strange combination of events? Fill me in.
As for the woman, I have googled the consensus and there are actually three popular interpretations. All with some degree of validity so we will simply have to agree to disagree on that point at least until the second coming. I don’t think it’s important that we know it anyway, what we really need to know is the mark of the beast. That will affect our eternal life if we make it to the tribulation. Unless of course you are a believer of the early (secret) rapture in which case we will never know the beast.
Anyway, let me know about the astronomical event and I’ll give you my opinion on it.
By
Jimbo
(wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
11/21/2009 14:33 pm
What are you talking about?
I said saintS . . . . not saint. Yes, the manchild (singlular) represents a group of people, just as the woman (singular) represents a group of people (the church) . . . which I noticed you did not hesitate to apply (to the woman).
The applications of the “A wonder in the heavens” I mentioned is a procession of constellations, not an astronaut. Since God often uses cosmic events to mark His events, it fits quite nicely . . . especially when considering the frequency said event . . . which never happened before in the history of recorded man.
The 3rd of the stars are cast down by the 7th head, they don’t follow the 7th head, and the event is when the 10 horns and the woman are on the scene . . . which I might add, neither the woman, 10 horns, or 7th head existed at the alleged falling down of angels some time back in the time before creation. And we are seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus Eph 2:6 . . . the metaphor fits . . . just as the woman is seen in the heavens (Does that mean the woman/church is first in heaven before she is persecuted on earth? . . . Your words)
There are 15 bible passages equating or typeing stars to believers; only 1 to angels. My thesis matches perfectly with Paul’s prophecy of the great falling away. That is how bible doctrine is authenticated . . . allowing the Bible to interpret the Bible.
Next, who says ’s only one (1) 3.5 year period being referred to? And if 3.5 yeasr = 1260 years then the two olive branches prophecy for 1260 YEARS. The ministry they perform,and their 3 days lieing dead in the streets kind of defines that 3.5 years = 3.5 years, and 3 days means 3 days. Typing and morphing these days into a millennium is quite irresponsible.
S0, remove the 1260 years, and interpret the times EXACTLY as John wrote them, then we don’t have too long to wait for things to unfold. 3.5 years not, 1260 years. Rev 1:1 The things of this prophecy must occur “rapidly” (1260 years is not too rapid)
So far, you have grievously misrepresented what I said and really haven’t faced the prophetic points I raised . . . . other than through what appears to be a spirit of belittlement. I’ve had 6th graders understand my thesis. I wonder if it has anything to do with their state of spirit. To say the least, I’m quite concerned about yours. You’re welcome to dial in a Christ-like spirit at any time.
If not, have a nice life and don’t waste your time dialoguing with me.
By
fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
11/21/2009 13:22 pm
Well I don’t even know where to start here - you are all over the map making mountains out of mole hills. Do I understand that you believe that the woman in heavens is like Sally Ride or another woman astronaut? That’s what John takes from seeing our space program? Not the moon landing? Come on, lets get down to earth here.
And you think that the man child (singular - a saint maybe, but not all the saints of the church) represents the rapture? That’s a new one for the early rapture theory. You guys will pull out any verse from anywhere if it can be twisted to make it look like it is rapture related. The rapture is clearly described - when Christ returns in glory at the 7th trump. No sooner. We all wish it were true but alas it is not.
And the third of the stars that fall from heaven are clearly the followers of Satan - the fallen angels mentioned by name in rev 12-9. They are not backsliding believers or else they would not be in heaven. You conveniently left out that word in your description.
And don’t forget that in prophecy a day equals a year so 42 months = 1260 days or 1260 years, not 3-1/2 years. So it can’t refer to the tribulation.
And Mary lived in the Roman empire - the fourth kingdom of Daniel. John starts at kingdom 5 - the Holy Roman empire which replaced the roman empire and which lasted guess what? - 1260 years! There’s your prophetic proof (among 13 others) of the first beast of revelation. (So that one HAS happened.)
The 6th kindom or the second beast came up from the previous one - it was what was left after the Holy Roman empire was dealt a fatal blow in 1898 by Napoleon - the last Holy Roman emperor. So what was left? Only the church, all by itself. And the wound was healed in 1929 when the Vatican gained nation status and autonomy by Mussolini. Clearly, Mary did not live during this kingdom (beast).
Rev 12 occurs BEFORE the first beast, chapter-wise, and concurrently in actuality. The woman (true church) went into hiding during the Holy roman empire - again, for 3-1/2 prophetic years or 1260 actual years.
If the events of ch. 12 have not yet happened then we have a very long wait until Christ returns.
I’m sorry but you can’t reject prophetic years in order to make it fit your end-time theory.
I’m afraid that your interpretation is so complicated and convoluted that you will be waiting forever for your events to come to pass. In fact, I can’t think of any fulfilled prophecy that was as complex as what you’ve described. I am forced to believe the correct interpretation will in the end be very simple. Only time will tell of course. In the end we will all discover the truth.
By
Jimbo
(wrote 22 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
11/19/2009 11:53 am
Saints are also to rule with a rod of iron (with Jesus.) and saints will be caught up to God . . . . it’s called the Rapture by some. I already posted multiple blogs detailing why Jesus is not the Manchild of Rev 12. They are easily reviewed. Could be some good info there for you.
Look, all points in the prophetic profile must be fulfilled by Jesus for him to be the Manchild of Rev 12. As per my postings, he fulfills none of them. Rev 17:12 says the 10 crowned-horns (seen before the woman in Rev 12:3) are 10 world rulers that will rule with the antiX for one hour. (That hasn’t happened yet.) They will also attempt to make war with the Lamb (Rev 17:14) - - (That hasn’t happened yet.). And then the lamb will overcome the 10 crowned-horns (Rev 17:14) - - (That hasn’t happened yet. ). In addition, the harlot that rides the beast rules over ALL the earth (Rev 17:18) - - (That hasn’t happened yet. Rome did not rule over ALL the earth.). The 7th head of the dragon (which will also be the 8th), has to represent a future world government from the Roman government John (who penned the book) & Jesus & Mary lived under during the 6th head of the dragon (Rev 17:10) - - (Thus, the 7th hasn’t happened yet.). This would also harmonize with the Nebuchadnezzar’s image that differentiates the iron legs to that of the feet of iron & clay.
I’ve also mentioned the literal “woman in the heavens” celestial event that only now has occurred in the history of recorded man. Certainly, a “wonders in the heavens” for those who understand Astronomy.
I could continue if you need more points compared in prophetic profile.
The only explanation that resolves and completes All the points in the prophetic profile is defined when the saints are the Manchild during the end-of-days events.
The saints will rule and reign with a rod of iron (Rev 2:27) - - (That will happened.) The saints will be caught up to God just as described to the Manchild (1 Thes 4:17) - - (That will happened.) Many believers will backslide before the 2nd coming of Yeshua-Messiah (2 Thes 2:3) - - (That will happened.) This is the 1/3rd of the stars falling (Rev 12:4). The church is often typed as a woman (many scriptures). The 3.5 years of persecution the woman is subjected to is only defined in the Book of Rev, and is and end-time even defined only for the time of the AntiX.
Again, I could continue if you need more points compared in prophetic profile.
This is certain: all points in prophetic profile must be resolved for an accurate discernment of what this fulfillment will be. Jesus, Mary resolve none of them. The “sold out saints” who compromise not to the end do fulfill all the points.
By
fozman
(wrote 42 Bible Commentaries - permalink to this Commentary)Posted on:
11/19/2009 08:25 am
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Glad to see everyone have fun with the Bethula/Virgo lead I gave to Fozman and others way earlier in the threads. My hold is still that the woman is a real mother out there somewhere. Nostradamus might hold some of the proof I needed. Here is a recent article I found.
Nostradamus Secret Legend Revealed
in Ancient Ciphertext - Art of Coded Writing
A Bold, Secret Legend Veiled Almost 500 Years…
An ancient, prophetic tale has secretly lurked ciphered safely within aged journals. This hidden tale depicts the life events of a 20th century family who exemplify the rise to consciousness in an age when testimonials and proofs of life, death, resurrection, and interaction with divine forces are permitted and better understood. The people in this family exemplify the art of undying - resurrection - in an age when the forces of divine truth overturn ignorance and defy murderous inquisition. The ciphertext has long caused grave controversy and debate but this hidden tale has remained safely encoded for hundreds of years - safe from the prying eyes of those who would profane it as well as from clergy and world sages. Nostradamus stated that after almost 500 years of shrouded mystery an interpreter would bring his verses to true light and understanding, halting naive debate. Read the hidden legend now for the very first time….
The author presents a very personal story as well as concepts and tangible proofs that will shock the world! The very accurate, detailed method of deciphering is explained from its original, multilingual ciphertext to basic ancient French then translated to English verses. The profoundly deep insinuations of the truths of prophecy; the magical, ingenious workings of the higher mind in divine writings; tangible proof of the Divine order, and the Divine plan of heaven for all human life through the Law of God are among the many staggering impacts of this secret legend as it provides ample evidence of the immortal life of the Spirit. More mind-boggling than The Bible Code, this work does not offer hints at deciphered code but instead a very exact science of the ancient, alchemical art of the permutation of letters with the deciphered legend bringing a bold, hidden message to humankind.
Even though Fozman and many others didnt want to listen, I continue to find more and more evidence that I am right. See ya later.