Rev.4 and 5 are the introductory or foundational scenes of heavenly throne, but even then they are different. Rev. 4 talks about God as creator with a song of prise for that and there the son is not mentioned. the holy Spirit is mentioned as the seven burning lamps before the throne. In chapter 5 the holy Spirit is not there before the throne, but is sent to the earth, but the Son is introduced as the lamb of God. Here God is adored as the re-creator, as redeemer. The book of Revelation is all about the final conflict between God and His arch Enemy, the Satan. The wants to usurp the allegiance of men from God. God alone is worth as creator and redeemer and therefore he brings judgement on the Enemy and those who align with him.

Thus real chronology starts from Chapter 6 onwards. The seven seals are obviously chronological, but we can safely say that the all the judgemental things place within these seven seals. it means the seven seals includes the seven trumps and the seventh trump includes seven vials of wrath. The seven trumps and the seven vials are not concurrent but sequential, as the quantum of destruction is higher in the case of vials. It is one fourth in the case of trumps served as last warning, where it one third in the case of vials of wrath. We should remember that some chapter like chapter 7, chapter 10 to 12 etc are parenthetical. The other chapter are extension of some facts earlier stated ( for example the destruction of Babylon stated in chapter 16, at the time of the seventh vial is further described full in chapter 18 etc. Two women and two cities are there. Apostate church as the whore of chapter 17 is the Babylon 0f Chapter 18 and the True Church as the bride of Christin Chapter 19 is the New Jerusalem in 21 and 22.Thus we cannot think of Revelation in full chronological order from chapter 1 to 22 or even 4 to 11.

The Antichrist is to break the covenant in the middle of the seventeenth week. So before that there is period of 3- 1/2 years when the two witnesses are witnessing. Towards the end of the middle of the week the Antichrist kills them and then come the time of seven trumps and vials as part of the seventh seal.It is the second half of the week. The rapture takes place in Revelation 14:14-16.

The church consists of believers of both the Israel and and the Gentile. Israel has also God’s plan in this later time. Ultimately the new Jerusalem has Apostles as its foundation and the twelve patriarchs of Jews. One fold and one shepherd realized at last.

I believe the woman of Rev. 12 is the Israelite Nation and 1,44,000 are the first fruits of that nation. The rest of the Jews to be saved and amalgamated in the church are the bumper crop. They are all over comers as stated in Rev. 22:7 This is my understanding of Revelation. Any comment? (Titus 2:1)

Commentary by Jayant Christian
Posted on: 6/26/2009 08:32 am

Fozman,

I’m not giving you tradition. Tradition does not acknowledge Rev 12 as a rapture text. Tradition does not say that the church goes through the Tribulation. Tradition does not say that Rev 1-11 is chronological. Tradition does not say that only certain Christians will rule and reign with Christ.

You talk about “timeline indicators” but then you reject one of the most obvious ones; apparently because it does not fit your interpretation. Either you must conclude Revelation 4-11 is not chronological or you must come up with some meaningless explanation for just who the martyred souls in Chapter 6 are. Obvioulsy, you have chosen the latter.

Regarding the Satanic possession of antichrist, you have rightly attacked my logic.., my admittedly silly logic. But the point of my silly logic is to show that your logic is just as silly. You have deconstructed my point quite well but you failed to establish your own. (But your assumption that I think antichrist must be satan-possessed all of his adult life is a bit off-the-wall. No, antichrist will be quite evil all by himself before Satan takes possession of him. Judas managed this quite well also).

Your point about the “last trump” in 1 Cor 15 seems a bit presumptous to me. It also seems like you hang an awful lot on equating the “last trump” that Paul mentions with the seventh “trump” of the 7th seal. And, of course, it is a rapture verse.., one of the best! We evidently just disagree on the timing.(Here’s a little food for thought: where does it suggest any place in the book of Revelation that the 7 Trumpets that are blown in heaven are ever heard anywhere on the earth? Just curious).

Commentary by Scott
Posted on: 6/25/2009 22:30 pm

Scott,
In your response to Jayant you are again teaching from tradition. I thought it clearly stated in 1 Cor 15:52-53 that the rapture is at the last trump. Please review posting #69 that I sent. I submitted this as evidence to that end. Or are we to ignore the two scriptural proof texts I submitted? Of course, if you are going to ignore Paul’s word, or chose not to consider such a weighty piece of evidence, then I guess we are done here. Then again, you can prove to me that in some weird Greek way, the words “last trump” don’t exist in 1 Cor 15:52-53, or that this is not a rapture verse to begin with. I’m correctable . . . . not just through traditions.

If we ignore even one relevant verse, then our doctrines are compromised.

Commentary by Fozman
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:20 pm

Posting #75 is in response to Scott

Commentary by Fozman
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:09 pm

And yet Judas was Satan possessed when he betrayed the Lord (John 13:27). Now, how could Satan do that? Would he have to be in two places at once? Or, maybe Satan can be on earth when he chooses (as he was with Judas, Adam & Eve, his tempting of Jesus). Satan obviously has access to the earthly realm. So, why is it so difficult for someone to imagine Satan inspiring anti-X until the time when Satan is removed from heaven? And would someone show me scripture where it says (verbatim) that the anti-X is completely and permanently Satan-possessed . . . as opposed any other many other contingencies that could be suggested? Here’s one possibility. Satan inspires the anti-X with some of his hench-man (demons coming with his authority) until this alleged permanent possession which tradition speaks of. (I can provide scriptural evidence where an angel possessed by God was only seen as God . . . . the presence of the angel not even acknowledge. Assuming the spirit realm works the same for both sides, this would be an example supporting my suggestions).
My point? Satan doesn’t have to be in two places at one time. My scenario never suggested that.
Who knows how this works? Look, I would have no problem following your “logic”, Scott, accept you have provided no evidence (and no one can) that your assumptions are the reality of the spirit realm. I believe you are stuck on traditional thought, which is often void of scriptural support.
No, Scott, I believe I’m tracking your argument perfectly. And it appears you are suggesting parameters that neither you nor I can substantiate . . . they are assumptions. . . . as follows:
1. Anti-X must be Satan possessed all of his adult life (possibly all his life), or at least when he takes power.
2. Anti-X cannot be demonic filled or inspired until that point (which I suspect other Satanists are)
3. The Anti-X is keeping him alive after the death wound.
I do not subscribe to these assumptions, because they are not supported by scripture and verse. They are founded on traditions.
As far as your comments, I ask, “Who says that if the Satan later leaves a revived anti-X man, the man dies? Scripture only supports that fact that the anti-x is HEALED (Rev 13:3,12). Scripture does not state, reveal, or even imply that the ant-X becomes some form of an empty shell, the body being a form of a perverted temple for the devil. For that matter, why even ask that question? You state, “ . . . logic says if Satan leaves his body, antichrist would die again etc.” Scott, logic wouldn’t waste the time to examine such a scenario, because such an alleged event is never raised in for debate. This is only a nice distraction. The question is irrelevant and completely unnecessary.
I still contest that my scenario is quite believable and quite plausible. And I will continue to wait for some solid, distraction-free scriptural evidence to challenge it. Unfortunately, my scenario will not satisfy “drive-by” assumptions. So if you can substantiate your logic with scripture and verse (eg: demonstrate to me that the ant-X is Satan possessed before he claims to be God) then you will have my attention. However, there is no scripture evidence to that end; and any assumptions suggesting the same are not factual, nor provable, nor even probable.
As for Rev 7 . . . People assume that this is speaking of “THE Great Tribulation” and they assume that the term “THE Great Tribulation” is a scriptural term. Both are incorrect. The term “The Great Tribulation” is church made, not scriptural stated. (I’ve ran the term “the-great-tribulation” through my bible software search engine and had “No Results” for my efforts.) The breakdown of the Greek is “those who came out of great persecution/affliction.” Most bible translations leave out the imperative “THE” which would suggest that it is not referring to “THE” great tribulation, if there was such a specific identifiable title to be applied in the first place. There are, and have been many great afflictions of which the body of Christ have suffered. That is to say, Xian history is replete with millions upon millions of martyrs. They obviously will never suffer through “THE great affliction” because they have already been escorted to the heavenly realm, where (I would assume) they are doing exactly what Rev 7:9-17 is describing. Thus, I contend that Rev 7 is speaking of former martyrs who have washed their robes with the blood of X. And until someone can demonstrate to me that Rev 7:14 is speaking of those specifically destroyed in and after the 3-1\2 years, I remain firm on my chronology which you suggest is out of context.

Commentary by Fozman
Posted on: 6/25/2009 14:08 pm

Please pardon my double-post below. I must’ve bumped the Enter key.

Commentary by Scott
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:42 pm

Jayant,

Permit me to respond to your post.

“So my question: How do you relate the Overcomers (Man child of Rev.12) and the 1,44,000 Of Rev. 7 and 14? Are they the two different groups? If yes, what are they? What is the biblical basis for that distinction?”

(Before considering my words, it is imperative to recognize that chapters 4-11 are chronological. If this cannot be agreed upon, then it must be concluded that Jesus himself is the author of confusion because no realistic interpretation of these chapters would be possible otherwise).

The Overcomers (manchild) of chapter 12 are caught up to heaven in the Rapture even before Jesus takes the scroll out of the hand of God as recorded in chapter 5. These saints are taken up not so much as a rescue from the imminent Tribulation, but from an intractable, dangerous situation that is severly testing the faithful BEFORE the Tribulation occurs. But they are also taken up as the new ruling class with Jesus in the heavenlies. (This is why there is a war in heaven).

The saints who must immediately go through the Tribulation after the rapture will be purified by their suffering for Christ. (These are the 5 virgins in the parable who did not have sufficient oil). They will be resurrected at the end of the 3 1/2 year Tribulation and caught up to heaven to be priests unto God. This is recorded in chapter 7 and it MARKS THE END OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION which coincidentally, marks the END of the Age of Grace. What immediately follows is the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. The last 7 years before Christ returns. It is the resumption of God’s covenant dealings with Israel and it is marked by the sealing of the 144,000 Jews who are the firstfruits of the coming kingdom to Israel. Remember, Israel is an EARTHLY kingdom and these 144,000 Jews must survive the Wrath of God for 7 horrible years and remain on the earth to welcome Christ when he comes to reign. Much more can be said about this. (Note: the 144,000 in chapter 14 are the same Jews as in chapter 7).

The key component in this is the distinguishing break between the 6th and 7th seals. Seal 1-6 is judgment mixed with mercy. Thousands if not millions get saved at this time. In otherwords; grace is still available to repent.

However, the silence that takes place in heaven for a half hour is a sobering prelude to the breaking of the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets. The plagues and woes that follow are nothing less than God’s unrestrained wrath. It cannot be stopped nor diminished except by God himself. It is the time of vengeance. This COULD NOT happen during the age of grace which ended with the 6th seal. There is no record of anyone being saved at this time. The 144,000 who must go through this period could not do so without the protective seal of God. This is the time when Jesus says; “But for the sake of the elect (the 144,00), those days will be shortened.”

In a nutshell, the biblical basis for the distinction between the Overcomers and the 144,000 (in my opinion), is that one group has been prepared to rule and reign with Christ from the heavens (via the New Jerusalem). The other group has been prepared to rule and reign with Christ on earth from Jerusalem in Israel.

Commentary by Scott
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:41 pm

Jayant,

Permit me to respond to your post.

“So my question: How do you relate the Overcomers (Man child of Rev.12) and the 1,44,000 Of Rev. 7 and 14? Are they the two different groups? If yes, what are they? What is the biblical basis for that distinction?”

(Before considering my words, it is imperative to recognize that chapters 4-11 are chronological. If this cannot be agreed upon, then it must be concluded that Jesus himself is the author of confusion because no realistic interpretation of these chapters would be possible otherwise).

The Overcomers (manchild) of chapter 12 are caught up to heaven in the Rapture even before Jesus takes the scroll out of the hand of God as recorded in chapter 5. These saints are taken up not so much as a rescue from the imminent Tribulation, but from an intractable, dangerous situation that is severly testing the faithful

Commentary by Scott
Posted on: 6/24/2009 20:07 pm

Jayant,
My guess (and truly this can only be a guess due to the lack of scriptural evidence to supplement a definitive answer) is that the two groups are different, as if that makes any difference in the grand scheme of things.
I’ll throw a couple of brain teasers out.
I assume the 144,000 are “true Jews” . . . . those of the linage of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob (those who went through the wilderness with Moses). I think this is a safe guess since the passages specifically identifies the 144,000 as being the lineage of Jacob (Israel). This is in stark contrast with the Ashkenazi Jews who MAY equate to Rev 2:9 and 3:9 . . . “which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie.” The later are the offspring of Ashkenaz, the son of Gomar, the son of Japeth, the son of Noah (Gen 10:1-3). The Ashkenazi Jews came out of Russian/Turkey, and make up the majority of those calling themselves Jews today.
Now, only the true Jews had (and have) a covenant with God. The Ashkenazi Jews did not. They only observe & somewhat practice Judaism (in a much perverted form). Thus, they claim to be Jewish as the result. However, I believe they are not heirs to the aforementioned covenant, just as I assume I would not for the same reason. (My only partaking in the covenant promise is through my brother, the lion of the tribe of Judah . . . . because I was legally graphed into the promises to Abraham, Moses, and our Messiah through my acceptance of our Lord’s sacrifice for my sins.)
If I see things correctly, then when Jesus returns, he will be fulfilling that former covenant with the children of Israel . . . . not with Gentiles who claim the blood of Christ. I assume that no one is raptured unless they have received Christ and are the sold-out-dedicated-“bride-Christians” alluded to throughout the New Testament. Thus, even true Jews will not be raptured. If the “bride-Christians” are raptured, and the backslidden half-baked Christians are purged through the 3-1/2 year persecution of the anti-X, then who is left physically on earth to war with Jesus at his return? Yes, there will be those that will return with Jesus . . . . but what of that original covenant with the children of God . . . the true Jews? I assume they have to be included with the events of the Messiah’s return. After all, they are one of the main reasons for his return.
So I speculate and suggest (and I mean this is a total exercise in speculation) that 144,000 true Jews will be marked by Jesus at his return. They will see him who they (who we all) have pierced, and accept him as Messiah. They will come into the service of the Lord along with those who return with Jesus at his 2nd coming. Both Old Testament and New Testament covenant promises are then fulfilled. What part they play in Armegeddon or Christ establishing his thrown is only known by God.
But, that is all a lot of conjecture on my part. Guess we’ll know who’s who when we see it for the first time. In other words, . . . . my response is nothing more than food for thought.

Commentary by Fozman
Posted on: 6/24/2009 13:53 pm

Fozman,

Perhaps you’ve misunderstood my point. I’m simply saying that your scenario is highly unbelievable because by logic, antichrist cannot be possessed by Satan until Satan is atleast cast down to the earth (he cannot be in two places at the same time; and if it requires the satanic possession of antichrist’s body in order to “resurrect” him back to life, logic says if Satan leaves his body, antichrist would die again etc. Of course, this gets a bit silly.

I say all that to say it is highly unbelievable that the man antichrist is NOT possessed by Satan during the opening of the first 6 seals.

Permit me to point out yet another flaw I perceive in your position. If you concur that the catching up of the manchild is the Rapture, then I imagine you must view the last part of Ch 12 as the 3 1/2 year persecution of the Tribulation saints. If this is your position, then you are placing the Tribulation during the time of the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal (the very end of Daniel’s 70th week). However, Revelation 7 has these same Tribulation saints safely in heaven before the 7th seal is even broken. It seems to me, that in order to justify this, you must destroy the clear chronology of the chapters 4-11. Is this what you have done?

Commentary by Scott
Posted on: 6/24/2009 13:50 pm